Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard

Welcome to the no original research noticeboard
This page is for requesting input on possible original research. Ask for advice here regarding material that might be original research or original synthesis. Include links to the relevant article(s). Make an attempt to familiarize yourself with the no original research policy before reporting issues here. You can also post here if you are unsure whether the content is considered original research. Sections older than 28 days archived by MiszaBot II. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) If you mention specific editors, please notify them. You may use {{subst:NORN-notice}} to do so.
Additional notes: "Original research" includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. Such content is prohibited on Wikipedia. For volunteers wishing to mark a discussion resolved, use {{Resolved|Your reason here ~~~~}} at the top of the section.
To start a new request, enter a name (section header) for your request below:

Myspace

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myspace#New_Myspace the very last portion of this section contains a lot of original research and dubious sources for its citations.

Wittes breakdown

User:Geo Swan has a subpage in his userspace called Wittes breakdown, which he claimed here "contained information which could be plugged into restored articles on any captive" and that it was a reliable secondary source because it was a summary of a 99-page academic paper. Conversely, I believe this is synthesis. Looking at the page, it is full of elisions. Therefore, the summaries there are Geo Swan's, not the paper's. One is therefore relying not on the source, but on Geo Swan's interpretation of it. This is tagged as a rough notes page, but it's not being used as such given the assertions made. IMO, this is not appropriate material for userspace, but I've decided to bring it here for further opinion. MSJapan (talk) 14:00, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

The paper in question is an analysis of the basis for detention of the Guantanamo captives who remained in custody as of December 2008. Approximately two thirds of the captives had been repatriated at that time.

• Benjamin Wittes, Zaathira Wyne (2008-12-16). "The Current Detainee Population of Guantánamo: An Empirical Study" (PDF). The Brookings Institute. Retrieved 2010-02-16.

The scholars at the Brookings Institute went through hundreds of allegation memos, looked at each allegation, on each memo, and if they thought it was a common allegation, repeatedly leveled against many captives, they paraphrased it in their study. For every allegation they summarized they listed the name and ID number of every captive who faced that allegation. I collated the separate places the Brookings scholars mentioned particular individuals, and listed those separate mentions in one summary. This is simple collation, not original research.

For example, consider User:Geo_Swan/Wittes_breakdown#Abdul_Haq_Wasiq_ISN_4 -- it lists 5 allegations, each supported by a specific passage in the Wittes paper.

Scholars at the Brookings Institute, lead by Benjamin Wittes, listed the captives still held in Guantanamo in December 2008, according to whether their detention was justified by certain common allegations: Abdul Haq Wasiq was listed as one of the captives who "The military alleges ... are associated with both Al Qaeda and the Taliban." Abdul Haq Wasiq was listed as one of the captives who "The military alleges ... fought for the Taliban." Abdul Haq Wasiq was listed as one of the captives who was a member of the Taliban leadership. Abdul Haq Wasiq was listed as one of "36 [captives who] openly admit either membership or significant association with Al Qaeda, the Taliban, or some other group the government considers militarily hostile to the United States." Abdul Haq Wasiq was listed as one of the captives who had admitted "being [a] Taliban leader."

On page 34 we have: "The military alleges that the following detainees are associated with both Al Qaeda and the Taliban: Abdul Haq Wasiq, ISN 4..."

On page 38 we have: "The military alleges that the following detainees fought for the Taliban: Abdul Haq Wasiq, ISN 4..."

On page 41 we have: "The Taliban leadership group includes: Abdul Haq Wasiq, ISN 4..."

On page 16 we have: "36 openly admit either membership or significant association with Al Qaeda, the Taliban, or some other group the government considers militarily hostile to the United States." Abdul Haq Wasiq and the other 35 men are named in a footnote on page 42.

On page 45 we have: "The detainees who admit being Taliban leaders include: Abdul Haq Wasiq, ISN 4"

MSJapan incorrectly claims I indulged in synthesis here -- specifically that I made up my own wording, my own classifications. I did not -- not even close. The classification is entirely the work of the Brookings scholars. The wording is either a quoted from their paper or it is very clear and indisputably fair paraphrase of the paper.

In the first two allegations the Brookings scholars decided Abdul Haq Wasiq faced, I quoted their wording, replacing with ellipses the phrase "the following detainees". This is not original research, and is a completely normal and completely policy compliant example of what good faith contributors do all the time, and not original research.

The third allegation is a completely reasonable and non-controversial paraphrase of the Brookings' scholars original wording, and not original research.

The fourth allegation is a direct quote from the the paper, barring only that I added '[captives who]' to supply context -- again not original research.

The fifth allegation is also a direct quote from the the paper, barring only that I added the article '[a]' to supply context -- also again not original research.

The work I did was not original research, it was collation. If I was working on an article about a sports hero, and summarized in one spot the scores sports journalist reported they achieved I would be doing essentially the same kind of work I did here. Geo Swan (talk) 16:22, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Since my name has been brought into this, I really don't see how this noticeboard applies to User sub pages, primarily per WP:TIND, and secondarily for pages created to quickly share reliably sourced research with other editors, as was the case here. If you really wanted to force the issue, take it up at WP:MFD. -- Kendrick7^talk 03:50, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

• I am not inherently opposed to the existence of this user page. However, its size has been bloated to a significant extent by repetition of sentences, citations, names, and phrases. This page is longer than all but two articles in the mainspace. I could easily reduce the page's size by over 100,000 bytes without having it lose any actual information. Admittedly, that's not an issue for this particular noticeboard. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 01:23, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Themes of Neon Genesis Evangelion

This issue was resolved

I am in a disagreement with what constitutes "OR" with @Folken de Fanel: who considers any statement I make to be OR or NPOV despite multiple references existing for the material. He shuffles around the information of the incomplete section and labels the most basic summarizations as such, despite the contrary. Specifically, he removed the summerization, "Neon Genesis Evangelion's overt religious themes run counter to Tsurumaki's dismissal and Anno's "self-interpretation" values. Opposition to these comments exist in the fan and academic communities." The immediate following line is, "Broderick writes, "Anno's project is a postmodernist retelling of the Genesis myth, as his series title implies—Neon Genesis Evangelion. It is a new myth of origin, complete with its own deluge, Armageddon, apocalypse and transcendence." He says Broderick doesn't contradict Tsurumaki, whose one time dismissal of a Christian meaning is being used over the writer and directors decades long "its like an onion" comments on the meaning of the show. In order to respond, only on the talk page, I pointed out an essay by Duan that explains several theories about Tsurumaki's comment. Such comments are fairly simple, but I believe the wording is the big issue here, Okada's comment, "Mr. Anno ("Evangelion") apparently never read the Bible, despite the heavy Christian symbology of his work; he just (according to Mr. Okada) picked out a few interesting technical terms. Likewise, the anime creation staff might open a book on psychology and, rather than read it thoroughly, simply go through it picking out "great technical terms" to use in the anime!" is more candid and not a business backed call like Tsurumaki's comment. While Tsurumaki is often intentionally whimsical or downright misleading in numerous contexts, say FLCL, it is Okada which presents a more balanced and specific view.

These views must be weighed against the much later release of the comments. Anno's comments before suggested a grand theme, Tsurumaki calmed Christian symbolism, Okada acknowledged the symbols and uses them as "great technical terms". In terms of "truth", its Anno, Okada, Tsurumaki (of the three (but not all) mentions), because of the nature and circumstances surrounding the development and view and environment of the comment. This is why Broderick's comment about the theme of Evangelion eviscerates Tsurumaki's comment. The Evaneglion Chronicle does so as well. The original Evangelion Proposal, made a full 2 years before the show contains religious themes, going so far as to name the enemies and their appearances and cite them from the Angels of the Old Testament. Duan's essay follows the typical, "as a whole it is clearly intentional" theme, because the pieces are too interconnected to be a passive reference and is deeply engrained into the show's theme.

Depending on interpretations - something any Wikipedia editor should weigh during writing - the whole situation should be looked at objectively. A vast academic body of work exists on the show, numerous lenses are used to analyze it, but over and over again the religious themes are so present and overt that it becomes impossible to consider it a "passive" creation. Before the show began the theme of creation was proposed, and are "replete" with such symbolism. Broderick concludes, "Regardless of creator Anno's stated intentions and artistic agenda, Neon Genesis Evangelion achieves what all major apocalyptic works invoke whether they be narrative, myth, prophecy, crusade or therapy—namely, a vision of society radically transformed from one of chaotic and imminent demise towards the liberation from oppression of an elect into a new realm of perpetual peace and harmony." This is confusing... because Anno is secretive and says that the "true" interpretations will ever be provided, essentially stating to each his own. Academics quite clearly see connections to the Book of Genesis, and Christian symbolism - that is undisputed. The sheer wealth of such sources and deep details uncover, rather plainly if I might add, that Tsurumaki's dismissal is wrong and Okada's "great terms" is half-wrong.

I'll conclude why, using Broderick, Okada is wrong, but I have alluded to it before. The existence of the materials, like the Proposal are heavy evidence of planning. It took many years to even get the "first race" material to be circulated that was originally proposed a full two years before the show. The 第一始祖民族、Dai'ichi Shiso Minzoku is the First Ancestral Race, first covered in the NGE 2 video game is revealed in the "classified information" and was done through Anno's work. This information, while of some canon issues, is a great supplemental work - and was covered in the original proposal for NGE and never covered in the show, but the mythos contains several references. Here is where the information diverges, "They were the first extraterrestrial intelligence. The humanoid species, referred to as the First Ancestral Race, started to spread Seeds of Life throughout the Milky Way Galaxy. As of yet, we do not know their motives or for what they were aiming. It is becoming evident that multiple Seeds were disseminated. Eventually, by force of sheer bad luck, two accidentally landed on the same planet: Adam of the White Moon, and Lilith of the Black Moon." and "Within a carrier known as a "Moon", the First Ancestral Race fabricated a perfect cavity (also referred to as a "Moon"), at which point the Seed, or "Progenitor Entity", would be placed inside and sent out into space. That was their technology, and, from the perspective of Angels, humans, and others, they might be called gods." Now that's one aspect. More on the spear, "It is a spear which has a will and is a type of lifeform capable of moving by itself. This is an item close to a god and thus able to put a Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity), who holds the power of eternal life, into suspended animation, and this is the reason why the Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity) does not reach god-status. The First Ancestral Race prepared this as a counter- measure in the event that a Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity) did not follow their own goals. It is thought that a Spear acting as Lilith's counterpart was separated from it by the shock at the time of First Impact. This Spear has yet to be found. There is a chance that it may have been destroyed." and on the Angels/Adam, "Two Seeds of Life are not needed on one planet, and, therefore, one of them is excluded. As recorded in the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls, Adam-based life took part in a contest of survival, putting the stakes on their own existence. Some of them were trying to access Lilith and reset all life, some of them had nothing in mind, and some were trying to recover their progenitor Adam. The Angels — Adam-based life — became active under their respective tactics for survival and success."

Lastly, the Instrumentality, "The Human Instrumentality Project is a plan aimed at divinity. The Evas are absolutely essential to Seele, for they are the sole key that can open the Path to God. This is because they were copied from Adam, the being nearest to a god.Still, there is something humanity lacks. Seele believed they had through Eva what was necessary to fill-in that which was missing; to make man into a God, or at least into an eternal existence. Completing an incomplete humanity, and opening up the Path to God, is Seele's doctrine. What would happen if people were gathered into something of a god? Seele believed we would become God himself. While the Angels were being engaged in battle, people were also making and advancing the plan for the path that leads to divinity. The first step is the completion of Eva — the body of a god and throne of a soul — via the installation of an S² Engine. The interfusion of souls follows. Afterward, our final natural enemy, the Spear of Longinus security device, is annihilated. Thus, that which is nearly divine, or perhaps a god in and of itself, is brought to completion, and, with the Spear gone, cannot be destroyed by anyone. Seele's intention for this man-made god is to guide the elite (themselves) to state near that of God's." And for one additional message (later used in Tengen toppa, "The S² Engine Theory was advocated by Dr. Katsuragi. As the world is formed with spirals, the engine acquires energy from its shape, which is the same as DNA. From here, the S² Engine was being envisioned as an energy source that would attempt to procure helical energy — in other words, an inexhaustible supply. (The Engine is) The Fruit of Life. This is the one thing that an Eva requires in order to gain an existence equal to that of Adam."

If this is not absolutely clear, than perhaps with the title, "Gospel of a New Century" - it should be. Tsurumaki's only comment of relevance is, "There are a lot of giant robot shows in Japan, and we did want our story to have a religious theme to help distinguish us. ... There is no actual Christian meaning to the show, we just thought the visual symbols of Christianity look cool." And the religious themes (not the meaning) are clear and trying to say there was no religious theme is just wrong. The religious meaning is disputed, but this depends on your definition of meaning, but as Broderick notes a retelling of Genesis, clearly the impression exists and is well supported. Broderick is not my "be all" source, its only one of them... Sorry for the complex issue! ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:15, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Clearly ChrisGualtieri has overinterpreted the Tsurumaki quote, or just plainly misread it. Tsurumaki says there is no Christian meaning to the show and that Christian references were just elements to make the show seem more exotic. He doesn't says the NGE team has never researched into these motifs, never says they have not build an elaborate and logical mythology based on them, or that they are used "passively". ChrisGualtieri even seems to think Tsurumaki denies a "religious theme", while Tsurumaki outright says "we did want our story to have a religious theme" ! I think CG just plainly misread the documents he's dealing with, has built his personal opinion based on misunderstood statements, and now he is trying to force his personal opinion in the article. Whatever the origin of the problem, it will be clear to anyone reading CG's above comment that he is cherry-picking the sources he agrees with and that he intents to use Wikipedia to validate his own opinion/research. He has resorted to original research by synthesis when he compared two primary sources and declared that they contradict each other while nothing indicates that at all.Folken de Fanel (talk) 14:55, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Wow. I think you've totally lost it. I didn't misread the document. The entire section is on the religious theme. And I don't see how official releases are "Cherry picking". Folken doesn't understand a very simple principal: The show has a religious theme and the religious symbols have a meaning, but the show is not religious and the symbols used are not used to offer commentary or advance a religion. I pointed out the essay of Duan which cites Taoism being used in Star Wars for the Force, Evangelion does the same thing. While I try to pick apart Folken's reasoning, the text of the article reads, "Assistant director Kazuya Tsurumaki said that they originally used Christian symbolism only to give the project a unique edge against other giant robot shows, and that it had no particular meaning..." Which is false, because the show bases its meaning off these religious motifs. Anno states the series would consider questions like, "What is the nature of evolution? What is humanity's relationship to his or her god? Does god, in fact, exist? What does it mean for the human race if that question can be answered definitively?" I fear that this will also be another issue with psychology terms because Okada said psychological terms were used because they were interesting, whereas Anno researched psychology books and even stated from episode 16 the focus was on the workings of the human mind.[1] Anno, as the writer and director, is important, but not that important. Call it what you want, plenty of sources disagree with the "meaningless" assertion. So much so it is a fad, and called "trolling". Again. Other experts can provide input on this, but I don't think Folken and me are even talking about the same things, much less at the same time. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 20:52, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Scottish independence

Commonwealth Realm

There is a dispute about how to interpret the statement by Alex Salmond, the First Minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish National Party. Salmond said an independent Scotland "would still share a monarchy with the rest of the UK just as we did for a century before the Parliamentary Union of 1707, and just as 16 other Commonwealth countries do now." Does that mean that an independent Scotland would be a "Commonwealth Realm?"

Current "Commonwealth Realms" include the United Kingdom and former colonies, now members of the Commonwealth, that have retained the Queen as their head of state. They agree to maintain a similar succession law and style and titles.

James VI, King of Scots, became James I, King of England in 1607, and in 1707 the crowns were merged as the crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Scots have long protested the 1701 Act of Settlement, which barred the Stuart claimants, and the numbering system, even demanding that the current Queen be known as "Elizabeth I" in Scotland.

I do not know if the monarchy of Scotland would be considered a restoration of the Scottish monarchy or a continuation of the British monarchy or whether any of these factors would determine whether the Commonwealth would consider Scotland a Commonwealth Realm, or whether Scotland would accept the description. Salmon does not even say in the source whether Scotland would continue in the Commonwealth.

It seems to me that unless there is a source saying Scotland would become a Commonwealth Realm, it is OR to say it would.

TFD (talk) 17:52, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

It looks like OR to me. What is wrong with actually quoting Salmond? It is speculation anyway, as the status of an independent Scotland within the Commonwealth couldn't be determined by Scotland alone. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:07, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, looks like OR. Plus there's two levels to it - would it be a Commonwealth Realm and is that what AS thinks? Even if we think we can deduce the answer to the first part, we can't put words in someone's mouth. Formerip (talk) 18:10, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Of course, TFD didn't quote what the article Commonwealth realm actually says: "The following year, Portia Simpson-Miller, the Prime Minister of Jamaica, spoke of a desire to make that country a republic, while Alex Salmond, the First Minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish National Party (which favours Scottish independence) stated his intention for an independent Scotland to be a Commonwealth realm." Note that nowhere is it stated Scotland will or would be a Commonwealth realm. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 18:26, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Maybe, but it appears to attribute words to Alex Salmond that he never said. Formerip (talk) 18:35, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Such as? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 19:00, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

"Commonwealth Realm"? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:03, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

What else could Salmond possibly mean by "16 [sic] other countries" that "share a monarchy with... the UK"? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 15:49, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

I can only presume him to mean "16 [sic] other countries" that "share a monarchy with... the UK" because he doesn't elaborate. So we shouldn't elaborate for him. I think it quite probable that Salmond does foresee Scotland as a Commonwealth Realm, but he may not. I think it quite likely that many Scots nationalists would take the view that the British monarchy is the Scottish monarchy by default, regardless of the Commonwealth. Perhaps the answer is to look for another source that is clearer. Formerip (talk) 16:22, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Given Salmond's occasional habit of contradicting himself (not unusual for a politician, I hasten to add), I would think it presumptive to assert that he couldn't possibly have meant something else. Not that it matters - we can simply quote what Salmond said, and let our readers decide for themselves, should they wish to do so. In any case, given that the term 'Commonwealth realm' has no official status, it is entirely unnecessary to decide whether he 'meant it' or not. If and when Scotland becomes independent, the relationship between Scotland and the Commonwealth will no doubt be formally negotiated - and we will have sources to clarify the situation. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:09, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Whether he has a tendency to contradict himself or not (I wasn't able to find record of any instance wherein he contradicted his above quoted words), my question was: what else could he possibly mean (well, have meant)? That hasn't been answered. Any suggestion will do beacause I am certain it won't fit the definition of a Commonwealth realm.

Yes, his words can be quoted exactly. But, they don't have to be and doing so uses many more words to say the same thing. Still, I'll change the article. I think it's pertinent to the subject and, having read articles about other Scottish politicians wanting a vote on whether or not Scotland will remain a monarchy after the independence they desire, I recently thought some brief mention of that should be included, as well. If we're going to keep the Jamaican Prime Minister's stated want for Jamaica to become a republic--something that also may or may not happen--then so too should information about publicly stated wants for Scotland's future status vis-a-vis the personal union of the Commonwealth realms. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 16:20, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

You changed the text to quote Salmon saying Scotland "would still share a monarchy with... the UK, just as... 16 [sic] other Commonwealth countries do now."[2] But that is still OR - using a quote to imply something. Again, assuming Scotland became a constitutional monarchy and remained in the Commonwealth, we do not know if it would be considered a "Commonwealth Realm." Would they, as the article says, have "a royal line of succession in common with the other realms"? My belief is that they would accept Elizabeth as the legitimate heir to James II, rather than Sophia, Electress of Hanover. Of course this is all speculation. TFD (talk) 17:48, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Note Salmond's words: "share a monarchy with... the UK, just as... 16 other Commonwealth countries do." What countries do you think he's talking about? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 18:34, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

He also says "just as [Scotland] did for a century before the Parliamentary Union of 1707." Which arrangement is he more likely to follow - Scotland or the Commonwealth Realms? TFD (talk) 19:35, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

That doesn't answer my question. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 19:38, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Salmond mentions both the 16 independent nations that currently have the same monarch and pre-union Scotland. It is not clear whether Scotland would be the same as a former colony that retained the British monarch upon independence or that it would restore its ancient crown. (Despite the dispute over the Stuart succession, Elizabeth is the legitimate heir of James VII of Scotland.) Would the Queen be known as "Elizabeth II, Queen of the UK, Scotland, etc." or would she be "Elizabeth I, Queen of Scots"? Would the 1701 succession act be adopted in Scotland? Would the date of the ascension to the throne of William III be the date recorded in England or the date in Scotland, where he was William II? Would a separate coronation be required? Would Scotland be a kingdom, or just a realm? Would it be possible that in the fullness of time, Scots might find a different person on the throne? Can you find any sources that discuss these issues? If not then it is just OR. TFD (talk) 22:25, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Right now what ever he means is pure speculation. The relationship will be determined by the vote and the options given during the vote. They could decide to keep the status as is, become an independent Commonwealth Realm (like Canada), become an independent Commonwealth Republic (like India), or opt to be a independent Realm with the Queen still on the throne but having there own line of succession afterward. Only the 1st Minister knows what he truly means, and even then if it's not an option to be voted on it won't matter. Caffeyw (talk) 06:31, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Is there a source for "crowns were merged" (TFD above)? No one, not the Queen or any one else, can "know if the monarchy of Scotland would be considered a restoration of the Scottish monarchy or a continuation of the British monarchy... " per TFD above. How can such speculation determine the content of the article? It is idle and pointless. Whatever OR may be, it is certain that if Salmond is to be mentioned in the article, his words should not be paraphrased but quoted, in main text or footnote, per AndyTG above. An attempt to paraphrase would be equally idle and pointless. Why is it there anyway? To promote his soapbox? Qexigator (talk) 18:36, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

The Act of Union 1707 says, "That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, and forever after, be United into One Kingdom by the Name of GREAT BRITAIN...."[3] For the last 100 since James VI inherited the English crown as James I of England, the same person (with a few lags) had been king of both kingdoms. The situtation of an independent Kingdom of Scotland differs from the Commonwealth realms in an important sense. They are former British colonies that belong to the Commonwealth and have chosen to retain the British monarchy and have agreed to have the same succession laws and similar titles, guaranteeing that the same person will always be the monarch in each country. Scotland may agree to that formula or it may decide it has no obligation to agree with any other country on its succession laws. If it is the latter, then we cannot foretell whether it would be considered a Commonwealth Realm. Hence Salmond's comments have no relevance to the article, which is about "Commonwealth Realms." OTOH, if we can provide a third party source that comments on what status it would hold, then we can include it. TFD (talk) 02:01, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

RFC on international LGBT rights

Editors are invited to participate at Talk:LGBT rights under international law#Duplicated text on countries' obligations under international law, a Request for Comments concerning material on countries' obligations under international law to protect LGBT rights. One of the main issues for discussion is whether the material in question constitutes original research. —Psychonaut (talk) 12:06, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Forums as sources being discussed at Talk:IRS

For some reason a discussion over a particular forum was initiated at Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources#Skyscrapercity.com online forum which has grown into a general discussion about forums as sources. There's a request for comment and it seems to me that others here will probably be interested and may have missed it. Dougweller (talk) 19:05, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Tony Ortega

User:Laval has purged a significant amount of properly cited biographical content from the new Tony Ortega BLP article less than 12 hours after I posted it claiming that it was original research amongst other things. Although I am a noob editor, I find those edits troubling and request somebody more knowledgeable than I am to review the version history to see anything that was stripped away can be restored. I spent several weeks developing that article offline in order to replace the stub the user originally posted that I thought was questionable in the context of lacking serious biographical material when there was so much readily available. Additionally, some of edits removed entire sections (Eg. Recognition that listed industry awards and honors the subject received) that I had carefully drafted based on seeing the same sort of content on other articles for seasoned journalists with comparable history. Thus I'm quite perplexed as to why it was removed in whole. Thanks in advance for your assistance. Hapshepsuit (talk) 14:03, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

As explained on the talk, most of those are primary sources from Ortega's blog and the tone was incredibly promotional and advertorial in nature. It's an encyclopedia article, not a resume or a promotional vehicle. Please read reliable sources, WP:NPOV, and WP:V. These are even more important considering the article is about a living person. Laval (talk) 14:06, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Also, as stated on the talk, most of the article was pure original research and even using sources that don't even mention Ortega directly. As far as questionable sources in the stub, you removed the article about Ortega in the New York Observer as well as the fact that he is a freelance blogger. The POV tone and OR is easily apparent. Also, based on the edits and off-wiki information, there is a strong possibility that this editor is closely connected to Ortega, in which case there is a definite conflict of interest. Laval (talk) 14:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry but I respectfully disagree. Of the 66 references I originally cited, 61 were from media outlets, professional associations and other online sources that were not written by the subject of the article. None of my work was original research, but rather a summation of a wide collection of biographical material readily available from sources that were removed such as the NYTimes, the Association of Alternative Newsmedia, the Investigative Reporters and Editors organization, the National Association of Black Journalists, etc. Thus I am asking for a second opinion. Hapshepsuit (talk) 14:25, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

You used very few secondary/tertiary sources as your contributions show, plus quite a few sources didn't say what you had written or even omitted data as was the case with his graduate work and the circumstances of his blog. As I said, your contributions are right there in the history and the POV and OR is clearly apparent, as was the promotional tone which was written like an essay. And of course you should ask for a second and third opinions, however WP policies on BLP are pretty clear on these things. Laval (talk)

Not to distract from the convo too much, but Laval also made similar edits on Freemasonry here, here, and here. Seems to be an issue of what the editor believes is correct more so than what the community believes is correct per guidelines. I know sourcing types are hard to identify sometimes, as I've had questions myself, but multiple reversions should indicate there is an editing pattern problem. MSJapan (talk) 20:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

RfC concerning the Lavabit email service

There is a request for comments (RfC) that may be of interest. The RfC is at

Talk:Lavabit#RfC: Should information about Lavabit complying with previous search warrants be included?

At issue is whether we should delete or keep the following text in the Lavabit article:

Before the Snowden incident, Lavabit had complied with previous search warrants. For example, on June 10, 2013, a search warrant was executed against Lavabit user Joey006@lavabit.com for alleged possession of child pornography.

There have been concerns expressed as to whether the above violates our no original research policy. Your input on this question would be very much welcome. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:56, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

The White Queen (TV series)#Historical Inaccuracies

The section The White Queen (TV series)#Historical Inaccuracies is 100% WP:SYN. I pointed this out on the talk page, but to no avail. As an IP editor I have no weight, so if there is a more experienced editor here who wants to step in, that might be helpful. 202.81.243.196 (talk) 12:06, 29 August 2013 (UTC)