Talk:Search for extraterrestrial intelligence

Miscellaneous

I removed the SETI Institute logo. The SETI institute is a well known SETI advocacy group and does conduct SETI observations, but is not "SETI" nor the driving force behind SETI any more than the Planetary Society or the SETI League is. It's akin to putting the American Lung Association logo at the top of a page on "Medicine."

I separated the SERENDIP section from the "Sentinal, META, and BETA" and expanded the desciption of SERENDIP up to the present day. I've also moved the SETI@home section into the SERENDIP section as it is an outshoot of SERENDIP.

I would like to see more mention of international SETI programs. Also wondered about whether it should be mentioned that NSF is funding ATA instrument development (and other SETI related instrument development).

-- User:SETIGuy Feb 13, 2006

I added a paragraph to Early Work to mention the Big Ear project which actually started in 1963 (not 1985 or 1975 as others have suggested). I am a volunteer (though inactive, for the most part, due to available time) with the group that operated the Big Ear telescope.

Added a small section about the Wow! signal (linking to the larger article) after Early Work and prior to the Arecibo Message since that is when it occured chronologically.

I removed the information about Big Ear from SERENDIP, Sentinel, META, and BETA due to its irrelevance and inaccuracy.

I added External links to the former Big Ear website and the current NAAPO website. -- ChrisBianchi

I removed:

Most mainstream scientists ignore the SETI project. Many of these skeptics regard it as pseudoscience.

I don't think SETI is ignored any more than other scientific projects. Furthermore, the second sentence is a non sequitur. First we are talking about mainstream scientists, then about "these skeptics"? There are SETI-skeptics and probably scientists who think it is pseudoscience (although most skeptics simply regard it as a waste of time), but this description is hardly accurate. If you want to add a discussion of SETI-skepticism, please do so, with proper references. --Eloquence

The article says:

"Above 10 gigahertz, radio noise from water and oxygen atoms in our atmosphere tends to also become a source of interference. Even if alien worlds have substantially different atmospheres, quantum noise effects make it difficult to build a receiver that can pick up signals above 100 gigahertz."

The sudden jump to mentioning 100GHz seems odd. Should it be 10GHz? If it's right, it might help to reword the article to make it clear it isn't a mistake.

Seconded: Especially because the sentence is composed such that you would expect 100 to be wrong. "... Even if ..." implies that we're still looking at the same limits.

(81.83.43.193 12:33, 7 January 2006 (UTC))[reply]

ANSWER: 100 GHz is correct for quantum noise. It's the point where the equivalent noise temperature T of the quantum noise (hv/k) starts becoming significant compared to other noise sources. (h is Plank's constant, v is "nu", the photon frequency and k is Boltzman's constant).

some notes to add

Interstellar communication is likely to be narrow-beam, point-to-point, to make it energy-efficient; and it is therefore very difficult to intercept. Signals are likely to be spread-spectrum for noise immunity; which will make them indetectable to us unless we have the spreading sequence.

So we will not find them; they will find us.

There are between 3,000 and 10,000 stars within 80 light years radius. .Y. of these having planets with liquid water.

What is the likelihood of a civilization if it exists, being a million years more technologically advanced than us? VERY HIGH . calculate this 10 billion years 4.5 billion years of 2nd generation stars? -> is our sun among the first 2nd generation stars? probably not. -> how many older? how many younger? distribution?

After a million years of nanotechnology, do they still need water? unlikely. What makes us think they would even be recognisable to us as life forms? Perhaps they are non-corporeal, and could inhabit our computer systems, create crop circles, control the weather, etc.?

These really are pseudoscience ideas. All SETI is doing is looking for a non-random (i.e. patterned) radio signal that does not come from Earth. I see no problem with that; it makes no assumptions about what kind of life is being looked for. All it assumes is that they use radio waves as a form of communication. thefamouseccles

There's no way of providing a falsifiable hypothesis for SETI. If extraterrestrial life does not exist, there is no way of proving that unless we go to EVERY planet in the universe and check it. However, if we find so much as one instance of life, that proves the hypothesis. Perhaps the best way of going about the thing is to use a null hypothesis: namely, "There is no extraterrestrial life in the universe that uses radio waves for communication."

That has problems too. We currently lack the technology to "eavesdrop" on mundane radio transmissions. For us to recieve it, it would have to be a pretty intense signal. It is likely that future technological improvements would allow us to recieve far weaker signals than we can today, but that would allow us to sample at most our own galaxy. The difficulties involved in eavesdropping on signals from other galaxies wouldn't allow us to make any conclusions about the universe as a whole.--RLent 17:05, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WOW! Signal

Information about the WOW! Signal from 1977 might be useful/interesting on this page. It's not currently mentioned anywhere on Wikipedia.

I added the "Wow! signal" entry in Wikipedia, but there is a factual error on this page, the "Big Ear" project started 1975, not 1985. Otherwise it would be ridiculous that they detected a signal 8 years before the project actually started... -- Ylai 19:22, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I wrote the original article for my website that this WKPD article is based on and tracked down data on the Big Ear telescope. Yep, that's right, it was built in the 1960s for a wideband sky survey, and converted to a SETI project in 1973. The WOW! signal showed up on 15 August 1977. I corrected this in my own article, which will be posted on http://www.vectorsite.net/taseti.html NLT 1 Jan 2006. I didn't modify the WKPD article; I hate to fiddle around with other folks' text, it seems rude.

Interesting radio telescope, BTW, an altitude-only transit instrument designed for surveys and built on the cheap. MrG (Greg Goebel)

Marc Abel, 31 Jan 2006: There are a few inaccuracies and numerous omissions in the above discussion of Big Ear. I was on the staff from 1983 to 1988, took a break, and have been "back" since 2003 (although the antenna is demolished). Big Ear did several SETI projects; the first was an 8-channel receiver with an 8-channel chart recorder only. The second was a 50 channel digital search; it ran from 1977 to 1985 when the acquisition computer failed. There have been a couple more since then, but I wasn't a participant in those. We need a lot more here.

Intro

This article doesn't seem to contain any kind of concise definition of what SETI actually is. This should go in the first paragraph instead of leaping right into the discussion of it as an alternative to interstellar travel. --Mumblingmynah 22:38, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

unsupported speculation creeping in

line 39 contains a seemingly superfluous note about "ruining their planet in the process" or some other such after the more factual statement that the power output necessary for detection over large distances could be a few thousand times larger than the current earth power output. This line feels "squishy" since the effect of power production on a planet is technology dependent. For instance, is fusion of tritium in ocean water included in the calculation? How about massive solar grids in space, closer to the sun? The list of technological fixes to the power problem could go on and on -- which is why the "ruining ..." statement should be expunged. — Preceding unsigned comment added by cnmirose (talk • contribs) 13:54, 20 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agreee. I'm taking that phrase out. Bubba73 (talk), 06:24, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Corrections/clarifications on META and BETA added

I fixed some wording and added details on the META and BETA searches. Darren, 20 November 2005.

Two questions

In the article it says:

Very small stars provide so little heat and warmth that only planets in very close orbits around them would not be frozen solid, and in such close orbits these planets would be tidally "locked" to the star, with one side of the planet perpetually baked and the other perpetually frozen.

If I'm thinking correctly, that would imply that the planets wouldn't rotate, right? If so, is it correct that they wouldn't rotate? Rbarreira 00:34, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite. They rotate at such a pace so they always point the same face towards the sun. This is what the moon does relative to us, so we only ever see one side of it. See synchronous rotation and tidal locking (which should probably be linked from the SETI article). --Robert Merkel 04:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Table of contents aligned to the right?

A user has modified the article in order for the TOC to be aligned to the right. Is this a good idea? What justification is there for this? I think it should be discussed since it's not very standard (despite there existing a template for this, which has been the subject of controversy in the past too). Rbarreira 18:37, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I did this. Using either Mozilla, Firefox or IE, without the right alignment, I get a few lines of text, then a tall thin box of contents, next to big white blank area. The user has to scroll down to see the overview. This does not seem very useful, unless your only goal is to make sure that SETI stood for what you thought it did.

When you float the TOC right, when using Firefox the overview flows into the region to the left of the TOC, and you can read the first few paragraphs of the TOC. IE does not fill the space to the right as well, but at least it puts the TOC and the first paragraph side by side, and you can see the top of the overview. Both of these seem better than the vertical alignment, and the Firefox layout in particular is much nicer.

I did not know this was controversial. I saw it used as a template on another page I was watching, thought it was better in all cases, and so put it in. If there are cases where it is worse, please feel free to take it out. LouScheffer 20:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

falsifiability

Under "criticisms", the article says "... assertion of the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence has no good Popperian criteria for falsifiability".

An assertion that there exists extraterrestrial intelligence is definitely not falsifiable. However, the assertion that there is no E.I. is falsifiable - just find one. That seems to me to be the way SETI is working. They are not claiming that there definitely is E.I., but if they find one, that would falsify the null hypothesis that there isn't any E.I. Bubba73 (talk), 06:22, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

pseudoscience?

It is unfair to call SETI pseudoscience. Just because you are searching for something that might exist, but haven't found it yet doesn't mean it is unscientific. They have tried to detect Gravitational radiation for decades, and so far there is no direct evidence for it. Same thing for the Higgs boson. Neither of these searches are considered pseudoscientific or non-falsifiable. Bubba73 (talk), 04:02, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The falsifiable hypothesis is that something does NOT exist. The burden of proof is on the naysayers. Jrgetsin 18:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gravitational radiation is based on Einstein's theories, most of which have been proven very accurate. Einstein is science. Personally I do believe that it's a waste of money to do scientific research on gravitational radiation, but it's still science.

Seti is as scientific as trying to find evidence that God exists.

First there is no undisputed definition of intelligent life. According to biologists primates, dolphins and even octopuses (a cephalopod) are intelligent. Cephalopods have been around for over 425 million years yet they never felt the urge to communicate to any other species. They are actually able to communicate with divers, researches and people keeping them as pets but only do so once we initiate it.

The kind of Homo Sapiens that speaks, builds houses, wears clothes and so on is around little over 10,000 years. The technology currently in use for Seti is just a few decades old. What's a decade on the 15 odd billion years since the Big Bang?

We know that catastrophic event have almost wiped out all life on earth several times, we've seen the evidence of similar catastrophic events on most other planets, even witnessed one live (Levi Shoemaker). We have no idea, not even a clue to base an educated guess on, how long mankind will be around or how long our technological advanced society will last.

Seti not technically advanced enough to actively communicate with intelligent extra-terrestrials even if these do exist. It is impossible to predict how much time it might take to make all the technological break-througs needed to develop such an active communication system. Once it's there, there is no other way to test it than to actually communicate... with...?

I can make my old VIC-20 computer communicate with my current computer:
- through a modem at 300 bps (if my current computer still is able to support such a low bitrate?) as long as I make sure they're using the same protocol, handshake, bitrate, character set and so on
- through a serial interface. Although the VIC20 interface is nowhere near standard RS232 it can be done.

The good thing about such an experiment is that I could get instant feedback. As long as we're not able to set up a worm hole connection between us and ET, there will be no practical way to test our ET phone line.

How capable are we to communicate? I can read and write some English, but it's not my native tongue. I might be able to express some essential signals, using hands and facial expressions as well as sounds, to people who speak a language that I totally do not know. I was able to tell when my dog wanted a walk, or food, or a hug. Character sets are even in the 21st century so badly standardized that it's still not uncommon to receive emails containing ŪζŹğŐ characters.

Champollion was able to decypher hieroglyphs thanks to the coincidental discovery of the Rosetta stone but if we could bring an Egyptian mummy back to life there would still be nobody able to actually speak with him/her. We can only guess what this language must have sounded like. There are several written languages from past civilizations that we're not (yet) have been able to decypher.

There are currently over 1 million species on this planet, over 5000 species of mammals. How may of these species developed speech? How many developed written language?

Ever had a phone conversation where a 3rd party came throught? How willing and able to communicate are you when that happens? Even if we would be able to catch an interstellar communication, it's probably not directed to us and highly inappropriate to break in on the conversation.

Even if there are ET's out there in the Milky Way with the technology to send signals directly to us, does it make sense to them to do so? Even if they would know our exact location? The Milky Way is a disk 10,000 light years in diameter. It's like standing in New York, trying to whisper in the ear of a person in Australia. For our current technology it's impossible to maintain communications with our own satellites more than a couple of light-minutes away.

The current most widely accepted estimated outcome of the Drake Equation is 0.0000008. The highest estimate I've ever seen was 10,000,000. That last number falls IMHO in the category wishful dreaming. Is 8 a fair compromise? Drake didn't even take into account the number of stars that are absolutely unable to support life, like red dwarfs, red giants and lots of others. Nor did he know the recent discovery that lots of candidate stars have a giant gas planet similar to jupiter orbiting very close by and with extreme velocity. But against all odds lets say there are 8 planets somewhere in the Milky Way where currently intelligent life might live that might be willing and able to communicate with us. As far as I know Drake didn't define willing and able either. The octopus is intelligent life willing and able to communicate. With its 8 arms and lots of suction cups it can do a zillion things our silly primitive hands can only dream of. If it would have had the urge to develop technology it would have had an evolutionary head start on us of hundreds of millions of years. Rolling on the sea floor laughing at our few dozen years of radio telescopy and computers.

I personally estimate the chances of life on other planets in the Milky way near 1. The chances of a lifeform as intelligent as the octopus somewhere in the universe might well be near 1 as well, anywhere within the reach of our radio telescopes that chance is very near zero, lets say 0.0000008. Chances that that creature actually felt the urge to build radio telescopes compatible with ours? Is 0.00000000000008 a fair estimate? Chances that this civilization has either ceased to exist or that it will rise thousands, millions or even billions of years into the future? Chances that that civilization doesn't even want to communicate with us? Chances that they tried to make a similar equation as Drake's, only to conclude that the numbers are either unknown or too small to take seriously?

Actually spending lots of resources trying to communicate with ET with our current technology, based on an equation with a total lack of definitions and lots of blank spots, with an unknow but undoubtedly extremely small probability that it might lead to an actual communication more meaningful than the WOW signal? That's not science, not even pseudoscience, it's rediculous.

What's scientific about trying to find a needle in a random hay stack without any particular reason to believe that there might actually be a needle in that specific hay stack? MythBusters have proven it possible to find deliberately hidden needles, even made of bone, in a particular hay stack. Both the number of hay stacks and the number of actually existing needles are high, chances of an odd needle ending up in some odd hay stack might be high as well. Probability of actually finding one is higher than the probability of getting struck by lightning. We all know that lightning does kill several people a year. "Science is reasoned-based analysis of sensation upon our awareness. As such, the scientific method cannot deduce anything about the realm of reality that is beyond what is observable by existing or theoretical means." (quotation from the Wikipedia article on science)

Although I'm a firm believer in the theory that we're not unique, this is still pure speculation and belief. And it will stay equally speculative in the foreseeable future, unless we learn to develop practical use of worm holes or similar futuristic technology. And even then a seriously intelligent ET wouldn't consider communications with a silly creature like man. Maggy Rond 06:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Stopping condition

Quote: individual SETI projects have clearly defined "stop" conditions

What are the stopping conditions for the Allen Telescope Array?

Tom

Criticism and Intelligent Design

The Intelligent Design section states that the critera for science is being tightened to diqualify ID as science. That's not true. It's ID itself that can't qualify as science. The same section also suggests that SETI is not falsifiable, and so repeats what was said in the section directly above. I wonder if this section is necessary at all. Maver1ck 08:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Section on "Other grid programming projects" moved

The section "Other grid programming projects" doesn't belong in this article, it belongs with SETI@home. While SETI@home is mentioned in this article, this article is by no means about a grid computing project. Thus, a section on "other" such projects doesn't belong. I have moved this to the SETI@home article.

Skeptical Inquirer issue

The current issue of Skeptical Inquirer magazine (put out by CSICOP) has a series of 4 articles on SETI. I recommend it highly to editors of this article. The articles aren't at all "skeptical" in the sense of "aw, c'mon, there's no such thing as aliens". Rather, the first article takes a stance of "we've been looking for a long time and found nothing; maybe we need to lower our expectations," and the following 3 articles are largely rebuttals to this viewpoint. One quote I particularly liked (paraphrasing):

The Drake equation shouldn't be used as if it had predictive value. It is only of use as a way to organize our ignorance, so we can have a rational discussion.

KarlBunker 18:01, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge of "SETT"

Nothing much exists in the SETT article to merge, other than the term "SETT" itself. A google search returned 105 hits for "search for extraterrestrial technology" and 26 for "search for extra-terrestrial technology." It seems to me that that makes the term "SETT" non-notable and not worth even mentioning in this article. But that's just my $.02. KarlBunker 19:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Arecibo message

Although the article does a good job of describing the Arecibo message, it might help to have an image of the decoded message, if that exists somewhere...although that might warrant a new article. Antimatter 23:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is such an article. I've added a "main article" tag to that section of this article.KarlBunker 13:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]