Talk:Hemu

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Hi! This is Regupathy 13:17, 20 October 2005 (UTC). I have to be clear in one fact. Actually Akbar hessitated to kill Hemu. It was Bairam Khan,who actually killed Hemu. When Bairam Khan asked Akbar to kill Hemu, Akbar just took his sword and kept near the neck of Hemu. He did not killed Hemu. But Bairam Khan did not want Hemu to be excused. So Bairam Khan at once thrushed the head of Hemu and killed him.

Hi this is Ketan Shah. There is no evidence that Hemu betrayed Suris.!Ketanashah 07:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

9th March 2008:-- Hi! This is Sudhir Bhargava. Please find references for the additions on the site HEMU: There are several books which can provide references to what has been written on HEMU site. Some of them are:

1)'Anokha Aarohi'by Mrs. Kranti Trivedi Published by Sulabh Prakashan,Lucknow; This book explains Hemu's family life,Parentage,Haveli in Rewari and many personal details.

2)'Akbar:The Great Mogul',By Vincent A. Smith (Oxford, 1926) This book describes Hemu's wars before he became a Vikramaditya king, how he made changes in administration after winning Delhi, and how he went to war at Panipat and what happened after the war.

3)'Akbarnama'by Sheikh Abul Fazal translated by Dr. Mathura Lal Sharma, published by Kailash Book Sadan;pages 155-156 describes Hemu's army before accession to Delhi,his winning 22 wars,size of his army,and winning of Delhi.His coronation and starting 'Vikramaditya Dynasty'

4)'THE MUGHUL EMPIRE'By Prof. R.C.Majumdar:Appendix (By the Editor)-Himu-A forgotten Hindu Hero,p.100-101,published by Bhartiya Vidya Bhawan. The writer describes Hemu's Delhi victory, his coronation,his relations with Afghans,his starting coins,re-establishing Hindu Vikramaditya Dynasty etc.

5)Aaine Akbari describes many aspects of Hemu's life.

6)'Hemu-Nepolean of Mediavel India' describes Hemu in detail, but wrongly, he calls him a Vaish of Rewari,though he was a Brahman.

There are dozens of books on Hemu.But only AKBARNAMA is considered authantic.That should not be so.Just because Akbar won the 2nd battle of Panipat and Hemu lost his life,entire history was written by Akbar's Men, who wrote Hemu a low-caste Bania, a baqqual, some even wrote him a shudra. That is not true. He was a Brahman and his Haveli in Rewari, shows that he came from a well to do family.First Floor of his Haveli was renovated in 1540-41(as described in book Anokha Aarohi) with Portguese architechture, which can be seen even today i.e.7th March 2008.That tells alot about him.

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.198.128.108 (talk) 15:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC) 

Citation in "Early Life" section

This part seems to be a source of contention, perhaps a citation is in order?

"His father Rai Puran Das was engaged in 'Purohiti', the performing of Hindu religious ceremonies as a profession. Due to the Mughal Rule in India, and persecution of Hindu religious ceremonies by Mughals, 'Purohiti' could not earn much."

I'm not an expert, but with so much deletion and reposting, I would say it needs a citation...Dragonsscout (talk) 00:43, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I'would like to put an old picture of 'Rai puran Das' father of Hemu on the website, in the portion Early Life. Please advise how to go about it.I can be contacted at —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sudhirkbhargava (talk • contribs) 15:20, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Hemu v/s Jodha Akbar

I've marked this as POV especially in reference to the following lines:

Indian Hindi film Jodha Akbar has shown the great Hindu king Hemu Vikramaditya shabbily. Director Ashutosh Gowarikar has misused the names from the history to gain commercially from the movie. Salilb (talk) 12:35, 13 May 2008 (UTC)Salilb

A particular user with IP 117.198.129.163 and 117.198.129.244 is continuously reverting these changes. Salilb (talk) 13:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Sections marked POV

I've marked some stuff as POV:

• The section 'Rise to Generalship and earning title of Samrat (Emperor)': The tone of the wording seems very biased.
• The section 'His Victories like Napoleon and fall of Akbar's Agra': The title itself is biased. The title should be neutral, and comparisons to Napoleon could be kept in quotes about Hemu.
• The sub-title 'Aftermath of Hindu Raj' is biased.
• The entire section 'Hemu v/s Jodha-Akbar' should be removed, I think. It has the contributor's own remarks, eg. "How Akbar can be called an Emperor under these conditions?". A new section 'In media' could be made where it can be stated that Hemu has been depicted in the film Jodha Akbar. How he has been depicted, that is certainly POV.
• The sub-title 'Perpetuating the Glory of Hem Chander Vikramaditya' could be changed to 'Legacy of Hem Chander Vikramaditya'

Please discuss here, before the POV remarks are removed.

Salilb (talk) 15:30, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Salilb

I must say that you have vandalised the entire page, which was prepared after deep research and collecting/reading several books.

1)Right from the beginning when I started working on this page couple of months ago,many readers demanded citations to what I wrote.Now when citations have been put,objections like 'tone of wording is biased' or 'books are biased'doesn't hold good.I have tried to put words as they appear in the books.

2) In the second objection you say 'title is biased'.See there is a complete book by the title'HEMU-Napolean of Medieval India',a copy of which I posses too! I have put only a few sentences from that book on this page.But yes, I think we can remove the words "Akbar's" from this sub-title.That would make it more neutral.

3) The next sub-title 'Aftermath of Hindu Raj'has nothing objectionable.In the medieval period Hemu had established Hindu Vikramaditya Dynasty in North India,also called Hindu Raj, and he brought about many changes in short period he was on throne,they need to be mentioned when Hemu is written about.These are the lost things in history,and wikipedia,the great encyclopedia of present times is the right place to provide this information to the present generations. So your first three objections concerning biased nature of write-ups do not hold good. I could accept them as biased if they were not with proper citations/references.But if you mean all the books are biased and do not make sense then it is a different matter.All the books and writers are recognised.

4) Your fourth objection is intriguing!I fail to understand why you defend the Film Jodha-Akbar so aggressively. In the past also,you have put POVs on this para.This has been a controvercial Hindi film, which denigerated medieval Hindu Kings.The treatment meted out to Hemu in the movie is objectionable and must be a part of any write-up.The movie was stopped from exhibition in many Indian cities and some cases are still pending in courts.Some more are likely to be filed.This section makes readers aware on the facts only.Here we can remove the sentence"How Akbar can be called an emperor under these conditions" You are right, it is not from any book.Rest of the section is just O.K.

5) The fifth section "Perpetuating the Glory of Hem Chandra Vikramaditya" has also nothing objectionable.The new Samvat day of Ram Navmi this year was dedicated to the memory of great hindu king "Hem Chandra Vikramaditya" by several organisations in Haryana this year.The main function was held at Panipat and attended by eminent Indian personalities as speakers, and orginised by 'Rashtriya Yoddha Smarak Samiti'.The function was celebrated to perpetuate and glorify the memorary and achievements of this great medieval warrior. There is nothing like legacy or whatever.There is no reason to change this title. I fail to understand why you have deleated the titles of Hindu Kings from this chapter for example, from 'Samrat Hem Chandra Vikramaditya' to Hemu, from Maharaja Prithvi Raj Chauhan to Prithvi Raj Chauhan and from Chhatrapati Sadashiv Rao Bhau to Sadashiv Rao Bhau.The fact is that the memorial going to be raised in Panipat will bear the names with their titles included. Do you think Hindu Kings cannot have titles?

I have explained all the points.Please advise at an early time on how to complete this page.Putting POVs every time shows pages in disrespect,discourage the writers and shows that wikipedia is not interested in some serious work,otherwise how it is that every now and then,despite putting citations,POVs are put and editings stopped.

Sudhirbhargava —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sudhirbhargava (talk • contribs) 07:38, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I'd disagree that I "vandalised" the page. I tried to make some copy-edits, remove some redundant facts (the fact that Hemu won 22 battles was repeated throughout the page. A fact like this is strong enough that it need not be reiterated.) and the POV claims. My comments for your points:

1. As I said (in my mail to you), the books which you are refering to are biographies of Hemu which will no doubt glorify him. Wikipedia is for facts which are presented neutrally, not to portray anyone in a good or bad way. Esp in cases of biographies, the facts should lead the reader to make conclusions about the person. The tone used in the books you have cited are unencyclopaedic. I'm trying to help make it sound neutral.

2. Calling Hemu the 'Napoleon of medieval India' is definitely a Point of View of the author of the book. I'd rather call Napoleon the 'Hemu of France' since he came 3 centuries after him but that would be my point of view! A neutral title could be 'Hemu's campaigns' where the facts could lead the reader to concur if Hemu was the Napoleon of India or if Napoleon was the Hemu of France :)

3. 'Hindu Raj' can refer to several reigns: right from Pushyamitra Sunga to Shivaji. A better title, in my opinion would be 'Hemu's reign as Samrat'.

4. The para on the film Jodha Akbar is undeniably POV. It is a fact that the movie was made and Hemu was depicted in it, but it is an opinion that the film denigrated him. No, I haven't seen the film (I don't plan to watch it either!), but opinions are meant to be in film reviews, not on Wikipedia - so I disagree when you say that your objections "must be a part of any write-up".

5a. 'Glory of Hem Chander Vikramaditya' is unencyclopaedic. It can be mentioned that functions have been held in memory of Hemu, but I dont think it is necessary to write details about what happened at the functions. Every year, Gandhi's birth anniversary is celebrated at various functions, I hope you dont think the details of every function held should come up on Wiki! I think a better idea would be to link to a news page mentioning this function. If the function was that prominent, some newspaper must have definitely covered it.

5b: Firstly, it is wrong that Sadashivraobhau was a Chhatrapati. He was the brother of Peshwa Balaji Bajirao and the commander of the Maratha forces. Secondly, I'm not sure if Prithviraj Chauhan used the title of 'Maharaja', at least the Wikipedia article on him doesn't say so. About using titles in wiki pages, complete titles are mentioned in the articles on the persons so it is enough to give the more common name like Prithviraj Chauhan, Akbar, Shivaji, etc. and not use the complete title for every reference.

I certainly dont mean to disrespect or discourage your effort. If at all, I'm only helping contribute to make a better page.

Salilb (talk) 18:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Salib. This article's POV needs to be reconciled with the Akbar_The_Great article, which tells a very different version of the history. This article as clearly written from a pro-Hindu POV. That point of view may be truth, but it needs to be consistent with the rest of the Indian history articles.

JDW (talk) 14:15, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Starting of Hindu Vikramaditya Dynasty

I have objections to the following lines that have been added: 1. "His Afghan officers were temporarily reconciled by a liberal distribution of plunder to the ascendancy of an infidel." This has been directly taken from the referred source and the line is an opinion of the author of that source. 2. The last line "after centuries of foreign rule" is not factual, unnecessary and POV to an extent. I think it needs to be removed.

I'm not making any changes since I'd like someone else's opinion on these. Salilb (talk) 07:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd back you up. This article's got insane POV issues. We can't even verify these books that are being used. I'm at a bit of a loss on what to do, to be honest. GlassCobra 08:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm adding this article to the Indian History Wikiproject to involve more people. Salilb (talk) 09:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

My submission to your two objections is as follows:

1) You are right, I have taken it directly from referred source and the citation is given.But I wonder what is abnormal in this sentence,and I may tell you this is not a new addition,it was there some 5 days ago.Two other historians Sir Wolsey Haig and Vincent A. Smith have also written that the reason Afghans kept on supporting Hemu was his libral distribution of plunder to them.The word infidel is used by the writer only,and is mentioned by dozens of historians.

2)Your objection that "after centuries of foreign rule" is not factual,unnecessary and POV to an extent and should be removed,surprises me. Salil ji you are an authority on wikipedia and correct and delete several write-ups from pages, must be having a vast knowledge. But I think this sentence is just OK. My information says that before Hemu ,who acceeded to Delhi throne in 1556,Prithvi Raj Chauhan was the native king who ruled Delhi up to the year 1192,when he was defeated by invader Muhammed Gauri at the second battle of Taraori in present day Haryana.That makes a time lag of more than 350 years when the native ruler could acceed to Delhi's throne.So please advise why it is factually wrong?

Also you said it is unnecessary! I would say that this was a great achievement of Hemu and deserves mention, and achievement like this is precisely the reason why Hemu should have a page on Wikipedia.

You also said here that it is POV. That confuses me on the term POV itself, and what it means on wikipedia. See there are two numbers from history 1192 and 1556. Prithvi Raj Chauhan,who was the native ruler of Delhi was defeated by Muhammed Gauri,an invader, in Battle of Taraori which took place in 1192. From 1192 to 1556 foreign invaders ruled from Delhi.Then in 1556 Hemu,who was native king acceeds to power in Delhi. And so we write that Hemu acceeded to Delhi,after centuries of foreign rule.How come this is a POV,this is a simple fact!

After reading your and Glasscobra's comments I also suggest that this page should be referred to some historians.All the references/citations I have given are from what historians have written.As you mentioned Salilji,that these citations are from biographies,do not hold good. Infact there is nor a single biography on HEMU yet,and one is being written now. So there is no case of unnecessary glorification or perpetuation,but his great accomplishments have to be mentioned.

For the time being I am stopping all additiond/citations etc. on this page,till whatever is written is accepted/corrected and OKayed.I hope there is a time limit for this exercise,so that page could be completed at an early time.

--Sudhirbhargava (talk) 15:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

According to me, the abnormality in the line is that it conveys that it is a fact that Hemu was indeed an 'infidel' which is probably the point of view (POV) of his Afghan generals. A neutral fact is that "Afghans supported Hemu because he distributed his plunder with them". The fact that they considered him an infidel is a different matter. Probably the fact could have been stated in a better way?

My thoughts on Foreign Rule. Firstly, what we mean by by "native ruler" is POV. According to me (my point of view :)), "native" means that the person was born in the region he ruled, then Akbar was a native since he was born in Amarkot in Sindh. So was Sher Shah because he was born in Sasaram in Bihar. Secondly. it is incorrect that there were only foreign invaders ruling North India since 1192 because there were the Guhila or Sisodia Rajputs (Rana Hamir, Rana Sanga being prominent rulers), the Gahadvelas who were ruling Kanauj (for a short time) and the Solanki Rajputs who were not foreign invaders. Among the Sultans of Delhi, not all of them were invaders. Then I called it unncessary because it is enough to state that Hemu started a Hindu kingdom (which means he patronised Hinduism, but lets not go into that for now) even though there were other Hindu kingdoms around at that time.

Lastly, please relax, there is no time limit for completion, but I can assure you my help on trying to make the article as complete and comprehensible as possible. We might not agree on some issues, but that doesn't mean I'm discouraging or disrespecting your efforts.

Salilb (talk) 17:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Battle of Panipat and Death

Seeing as how my minor edit was reverted, I'm going to now ask what is meant by smotted before editing anything. I think the word was probably "smote," but I'm not positive.Dragonsscout (talk) 22:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

'Smotted' does not mean anything - it should be corrected. The verb in question is 'smite', past tense 'smote', participle "smitten". "Akbar smote Hemu" or "Hemu was smitten by Akbar".

Salilb (talk) 04:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)....

WP:INDIA Banner/Delhi Addition

Note: {{WP India}} Project Banner with Delhi workgroup parameters was added to this article talk page because the article falls under Category:Delhi or its subcategories. Should you feel this addition is inappropriate , please undo my changes and update/remove the relavent categories to the article -- Amartyabag ^TALK2ME 15:49, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

Hem Chandra Vikramaditya → Hemu — per WP:COMMONNAME, the more popular Hemu should be used, instead of the ceremonial title.

• Google books: Hemu 22,200 hits vs "Hem Chandra Vikramaditya" 22 hits
• Google: Hemu 1,800,000 hits vs 5960 hits for the formal name. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:45, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

 Moved. Jafeluv (talk) 02:15, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

There is no justification for changing the title of the page from Hem Chandra Vikramaditya to Hemu. The person who suggested this change may not be fully aware of full history of this Indian warrior of medieval period. His full name is Hem Chandra Vikramaditya. 'Samrat' was a title which was removed earlier. Hemu is a confusing name. There is a city in China by the name of Hemu. There have been many persons by the name of Hemu in India. Even at present time many enterprises owned by different persons are named as Hemu ..... etc. So the page named after 'Hem Chandra Vikramaditya' should not be clubbed with Hemu and should be retained as 'Hem Chandra Vikramaditya.

Sudhirb —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.198.137.36 (talk) 04:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Emperor or General? Unbalanced article

Hemu was emperor for only a few months. His primary identity is that of a "general". Of his 22 battles, all but one were fought as a general under Sher Shah, over a long career of 15+ years. The lead I have,

was a successful general under Sher Shah Suri who became Emperor of India for a few months in 1556, after the death of Humayun.

gives a clearer picture of his role.

It was reverted by from an unsigned user. Please give arguments here for your point.

Also the article is severely unbalanced. Contrary to claims of his "brahmin" origins, I find references that he was born of slave or "outcaste" origins [Andre Wink, Akbar, 2009]. Even if the text by "Sadhu Kishori Saran" is a respectable document, the page should cite arguments to the contrary from a host of other authors.

As it stands now, the article has a very unbalanced P N Oak-ish slant. mukerjee (talk) 02:23, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

==Hem Chandra Vikramaditya== :

You have agreed to the fact that Hem Chandra Vikramaditya did become an emperor for a few months, but you won't call him primarily an emperor, and he should be called primarily a 'general'. By your argument, a Doctor of a few months standing should not be called a Doctor because primarily he had been a student for 18 years and should be called a student or student of medicine ? Also a Prime Minister of a country for a few months should not be called a primarily a Prime Minister because he had been a Member of Parliament for say 20 years. I don't think this is a valid argument. So please revert the changes yourself.

Also you have mentioned him 'born a slave'. I wonder what is your source of information. His family details are given on the page and his father Rai Puran Das was a Purohit in Distt. of Alwar in Rajasthan in the year 1501. I wonder if you have gone through the references mentioned at the end of page. Hem Chandra's Haveli is still standing in Qutabpur area of Rewari District of Haryana, which shows his standard of living. He had dealt in Gunpowder, which he imported from Portugese. He was highly educated and as per Abul Fazal's writings, was advisor to Sur dynasty. You should not describe him slave or outcaste, unless you are desparately biased against him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BishuYadav (talk • contribs) 15:59, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Indic sources

While non-English sources are permitted, we need to take account of WP:NOENG and it can also be tricky to ascertain reliability. For example, can anyone elaborate on "Dr. Parshu Ram Gupt, Rashtra Gaurav Samrat Hem Chandra Vikramaditya, p. 65" Who is/was Gupt, who was his publisher, when and where was he published, and can we please see a NOENG-compliant translation of the relevant bit? Alternatively, does anyone know of a reliable English source that could be used in its place? - Sitush (talk) 14:46, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Hemu's Caste by Birth and Profession

Unnecessary controversy is being created on Hemu's caste by birth and profession. Hemu was born at village 'Devti Machheri' in present day Alwar district of Indian state of Rajasthan. During Mughal period the area was called Mewat. Hemu's father Sant Puran Das was a Brahmin and a priest. He was in the profession of performing Hindu rituals. His photograph was also posted on the page, however some body removed it recently. Hemu was written a Bania by virtue of his involvement in business and supplier of Arms, Food and Gun Powder to Sher Shah Suri's army. So let there be no confusion on this and no blatent changes should be made without discussions on this page.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 04:50, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I've been digging around on this and can find sources for both Brahmin and Bania status. I really do not want to get bogged down in the treatment of caste but suffice to say that consensus is that we do not accept an individual's caste to be inherited, regardless of what might be supposed due to the constraints of endogamy etc. You can see a variant of this at User:Sitush/Common#Castelists. If reliable sources say different things then our options are either to show all of those variants or to show none. Did his caste have any real bearing on what he did? - Sitush (talk) 15:03, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

You are right in pointing out that for Hemu, different historians have mentioned different castes. Apart from Brahmin and Bania, even low caste Hindu has been used for him, because History was written by invaders at that point in time. As I explained above, Hemu was born in an influencial Brahmin family and took the profession of business at a young age, which gave him identity as a Bania. His father's picture in the garb of a priest is commonly available among his community members even today. I had put that picture on this page, which is deleted about a month ago by some body. Your question if his caste has any bearing on what he did is quite pertinent. In India at present times it is difficult to get a recognition for one without flouting one's caste irrespective of if one is a Brahmin, Vaishya, Kshatriya or a Dalit. For example there is no monument for this last Hindu king who ruled from Delhi in 1556 for a short period. In fact he was the only Hindu king to rule from Delhi for about a month in between 1192 AD and 1947AD. Now the Govt. of India would not erect a monument or name a road or a public place or a park after him, till his community with some voting powers do not approach them. This is what is called Vote Bank Politics in India. This argument may look irrational but practically it is true. Because Hemu's history and biography have come to limelight during last few years through Wikipedia, so the clamour for pulling him in different groups. Apart from Banias and Brahmins some Kshatriyas call him a Kshatriya saying how such a great warrior who won 22 battles in entire North India, could be a Brahmin or Bania. But I would like facts to prevail, which are that he was born in a Brahmin family and was in profession of Business, which gave him recognition and description as a Vaishya (Bania).Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 04:38, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I am afraid that Wikipedia does not work in the way you suggest. We need to show all opinions mentioned in reliable sources and we cannot use original research. If his caste was irrelevant to his notability/actions then the other option is simply to remove all mention of it. - Sitush (talk) 08:55, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:RS has a built in tag, which cannot be ignored, and that is: how reliable is the source. Most of historians who wrote him Bania did so because he was in business. But by birth, he was a Brahmin born to a Purohit. I feel that both these facts have to come on the page. During British period, a committee under Col. Todd was constituted to list various castes in North India, mainly Rajputana area. That committee had also listed Hemu's community called Dhusars as Brahmins, though there are Dhusar Banias as well. I can give that reference at the page.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 15:00, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I do not understand your first sentence, sorry, but James Tod is not a reliable source and is not going to appear in this article, period. We will need other examples, from both sides, and I am concerned that your explanation for the two opinions may be original research. I am also concerned that the entire issue may not even be relevant. - Sitush (talk) 15:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

To your last comment first, mentioning his caste may not be relevent here. However, the fact that his father was a Purohit cannot be ignored. Hemu, a well educated person, chose to become a businessman and supply Gun Powder and Cannons to Sher Shah Suri's army, which he procured from Portuguese, through his contacts in the then Vijaynagar Empire in South India. Yes, he can be called a supplier or a businessman or a Vaishya too, by virtue of being in business, though he was born to a Purohit father in a Brahmin family. By WP;RS has a built in tag, I mean Reliable Source or information must be true or a fact. No body has written that he was born to a Businessman father. His community is Bhargava Brahmin, as mentioned in his main Picture on the wikipage also. The citations given by some editors do not say that Hemu was born in a Bania family, so these citations need to be removed.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 04:25, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Do you have sources for any of your claims? And which of the existing sources need to be removed on the grounds that they do not support the Bania statement? I'm happy to help with improving this article but I'd rather not change things without good reason. - Sitush (talk) 16:05, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Now this is getting frustrating. I have given citations for his birth in a Dhusar Brahmin family of Purohits several times during the past 4 years. I had put a photograph of his father Sant Puran Das also in a Purohit attire, which is commonly available with decendents and community of Hem Chandra, but that too is removed by new editors, who have half knowledge on Hemu. The main photograph of his coronation, at the page Hemu, also describes him as "Maharaj Hem Chandra Bhargava" Bhargavas are not Banias or Vaishys by birth, though they might be Vaishya by profession. Citations stay there for some time (a few months) but are removed by a new editor. Instead of repeating those citations again, I would request you, like I did in the past, to give me one citation which says that he was born in a Bania/vaishya family. The present two citations which are put with word Bania/Vaishy are simply bogus, untrue and malicious. They only pertain to his profession of business, not birth.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 02:49, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I am not trawling through four years' worth of stuff to find your sources, and I'm not remotely interested in images. Sorry. - Sitush (talk) 15:07, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Zm6dmJ7fXjIC&pg=PA163&dq=hemu+brahmin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TafNUYicNcKr0QWOzoHIAw&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=hemu%20brahmin&f=false This might be reliable] but we would not remove the Bania/Vaishya claim because of it. - Sitush (talk) 15:14, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

I am not asking to remove Baniya claim, because as per profession, he was a Baniya. My question is how do we put that he was born to a Purohit (a Dhusar Brahmin) named Puran Das. Also as mentioned by me above, the two citations from books:Richards, John F., ed. (1995) [1993]. The Mughal Empire. The New Cambridge History of India (7th ed.). Cambridge University Press. p. 13. ISBN 9780521566032. Retrieved 2013-04-24., and Kolff, Dirk H. A. (2002). Naukar, Rajput, and Sepoy: The Ethnohistory of the Military Labour Market of Hindustan, 1450-1850. Cambridge University Press. p. 163. ISBN 9780521523059. Retrieved 2013-04-24., which are given in Early Life para, along with Vaishya, do not say at all that he was born in a Vaishya family. These merely mention that he was in the profession of business. How can you quote these citations wrongly. This is mockery of citations. Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 10:24, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Then provide a source - I've tried and you seem to have ignored it. The burden is on you, not me, - Sitush (talk) 10:36, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I have provided sources several times relating to the fact that he was born to a purohit (a Brahmin), Saint Puran Das. Bur new editors remove them without giving any true or correct citations which show his birth in a Bania or Vaishya family. Please remove the present two citations which claim he was born in a Bania/Vaishya family, which are absolutely wrong, as they do not talk about his birth Lies should not be perpetuated on wikipedia. Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 04:32, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Give us those sources you keep referring to and we'll consider things. We are not censored and we show all reliably-sourced points of view. - Sitush (talk) 13:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I have just reverted here because the changes, which included some to his origins, seem to be aimed at uplifting Hemu by selective use of sources. Those sources include really old things from the Raj period and also works published by what appears to be an pro-Hemu advocacy group. - Sitush (talk) 11:35, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

There is absolutely no doubt on Hemu's birth in a Brahmin family to Sant (Saint) Puran Das, who was a Purohit and lived at village Devati Machchri in Distt. Alwar of Rajasthan. If any body claims that he was born in a Vaishya family, he should give a reference. Till now none has given any, because none exists. But I agree he was a businessman and supplier of various types of merchandise to Sher Shah Suri's army, and many called him unknowingly of details of birth, as a Vaishya. Akbar's bio graphy writer Abul Fazal for the first time wrote him as a 'Vaishya from Rewari' some times in 1550s, which was wrong as neither he was born in a vaishya family nor born at Rewari. I would like to be enlightened on any citation/reference which mentions Hemu's parentage and place of birth as different from mentioned above.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 08:37, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

To your immediate above reversion you have said that some changes aim at uplifting Hemu by selective use of sources, which are old and from pro-Hemu advocacy group. I may submit here Sir, that no historian has mentioned any thing about Hemu's birth place and parentage. The information has come from his community members and decendents. His community has a Trust by the name "Samrat Hem Chandra Vikramaditya (Dhusar Brahim) Memorial Trust which was Regd. in the year 2000 to celebrate 450th birth anniversary of Hemu, which fell in 2001. On that occasion, the Trust brought out a booklet on his life and achievements. Hemu's community Bhargavas, also called Dhusar Brahmins have another Regd. organisation called 'All India Bhargava Sabha' (AIBS) which was registered in 1889, and celebrates its 125 anniversary next year. AIBS, an umbrella body and 37 Sabhas in various cities in India celebrate 'Hemu Day' on his Birth Day which falls on Dashehra festival day as per hindu traditions, which is 20 days before Diwali. So these two bodies, the Trust and AIBS are the source of personal information on Hemu.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 09:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Advocacy groups are only reliable for comments about themselves - not their members, not their views about alleged antecedents ... nothing except, for example, their office holders and year of foundation. This is standard throughout Wikipedia. - Sitush (talk) 10:09, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

The two organisations mentioned above are not the advocacy groups. They strictly contain members of the community of Hemu, including his decendents. These are Govt. Regd. bodies. All the members are 'Bhargavas' (Dhusar Brahmins). If relatives and decendents would not know who Hemu was, then who would ? I am still waiting for any citation which says that Hemu was born in a Vaishya family or to a Vaishya faather as claimed on the page. The present two citations do not mention about his birth details.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 04:21, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, your explanation merely confirms that they are indeed advocacy groups. As I am sure you are aware, it is common in India for people to make claims of descent that have no basis in fact and that are often disputed by rival groups. That, for example, was the driving force behind sanskritisation and is one reason why the number of recorded castes has risen from ca. 1,000 in 1900 to over 4,000 by the early 1990s. - Sitush (talk) 10:42, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I am also not at all happy with your statement that you are still waiting for sources. You conducted a parallel discussion on my talk page and should be aware that some sources were presented there several hours before you posted your last message above - see the discussion. - Sitush (talk) 11:04, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

The two citations do not mention his father Sant (Saint) Puran Das and his profession Purohiti. I think citations are vague and emancipate from the write ups of Akbar's biographer Abul Fazal. While one citation mentions Hemu was a Dhansar, which I do not understand, other mentions him a Dhusar. He was indeed a Dhusar, who originated from Dhosi Hill area. Dhusars were both Brahmins and Vaishyas. But because Hemu's community had their own temples and provided religious services and performed rituals were called Brahmins. There still exist dozens of medieval period temples owned by community in areas like Alwar, Rewari, Narnaul and others. Regarding advocacy for higher status, I may submit that my quest for mentioning Hemu as Brahmin is putting the facts, and true identity of Hemu on the page. I do not consider that there is any difference at present time in the status of Brahmins and Vaishyas. In fact true definition of Brahmin mentioned in Manusmriti is being followed in present times. In Manusmriti, Shalok No. 335 of Chapter 9 says that a Shudra can qualify to become a Brahmin following 3 conditions lika a) Getting good education, which in old times was knowledge of Vedas and other books, b) By remaining clean and 3) by maintaing good behaviour, mannerism and decency in public life. So any body holding these three qualities becomes a Brahmin. I think during last 3 decades in India, castism has weakened at a rapid rate because of spread of education. Thousands of inter caste marriages take place now among educated classes from different caste backgrounds, which was indeed advised by saint Manu in Manusmriti. So my attempt to write Hemu as born to a Dhusar Brahmin parents is to put facts and truth on the page and not to score a point for him.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 04:51, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Sudhirkbhargava, you are being ridiculous now. They mention what they consider to be Hemu's caste and there is no earthly reason why they should have to mention his father. Now either drop this or be prepared for sanctions because you are being tendentious and I am completely fed up of it. - Sitush (talk) 05:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Please go through pages 1 to 18 in book 'Hemu and his Times' Afghans vs Mughals by M.L.Bhargava, ISBN : 81-85047-93-6 which give Heredity, Birth, Parentage and caste etc. of Hemu.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 13:49, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Why should I bother? You are not getting it: we need sources written by people who are detached from his alleged caste and in any event we would still show the various opinions per WP:NPOV. What is it that you do not understand here? Can you give me a reason why I should not seek imposition of a topic ban given your inability to contribute in a neutral and non-tendentious manner? - Sitush (talk) 21:18, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

If you are not bothered to know facts, it means you are bent upon putting wrongs on the page. If his community would not tell about his heredity, birth, parentage, caste, Kuldevi and Gotra of Hemu then who would ? I have details and pictures of structures where he was born, where he lived during his youth, exact place where he was bhttps://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hemu&action=edit&section=11#eheaded by Akbar and where his torsoe was creamated days after his beheading, which are not in public domain yet and not mentioned by any author. That does not mean that these structures do not exist. Similarly temples owned by his family members from where they operated and performed religious rituals are still in existence. These temples are in operation by various Pujaris, though Hemu's decendents, being educated and involved in various types of jobs and business are not involved in day to day management of these temples, but remain the owners. Some authors, who tried to find details about him do mention that he was born in a Brahmin family. Nirodh Bhushan Roy in his book History of the Afghans, Part 1 has mentioned Hemu's birth in a Brahmin family. Dr.P.L. Bhargava, Prof. in University in Canada in his book "History of Bhargava Community" has given community history since times of saint Bhrigu.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 05:22, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Time for Third Opinion?

Coming into this discussion from the outside, it seems unclear how to best represent the caste claims. Since this is an unresolved debate limited to two editors, it may be appropriate to refer this to the Wikipedia:Third opinion process. Dl2000 (talk) 02:46, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Have requested for Third Opinion.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 07:44, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I have skimmed through the above discussion and am unclear on exactly (1) what content is being proposed to be added/edited, and (2) what are the proposed sources. As it stand the only mention of Hemu's caste I found in the article is the sentence:

Hem Chandra was born in a Baniya Vaishya family

which itself may be problematic since, on a quick search, the cited sources do not seem to support that (correct me if I am wrong). But setting that aside for the moment, Sudhir can you specify exactly what change you are proposing (ie, the sentence(s) you wish to add/edit to the article, and the source supporting those changes) ? Abecedare (talk) 08:03, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks ! You are absolutely right, these references do not talk about his birth, parentage, caste, etc. I had composed a para on 21st june 2013, which was deleted by Sitush. Para also explains why Hem Chandra was called a Vaishya by some authors. References are given there. I have also cited another book by MLBhargava on talk page which has 16 pages dedicated to Hemu's parentage, caste, community, gotra, Kuldevi etc. I would prefer to put the same matter, which was removed on 21st June, 2013, on the page, including the picture of his father Sant Puran Das, who was beheaded by Akbar's army, on refusal to convert to Islam at an age of 82 and was an important historic figure. However, word Brahmin needs to be added with Hindu family, like Hem Chandra was born in a Hindu Brahmin family, to give him a complete identity. Please do the needful. Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 14:35, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Richards said "Hemu, a Hindu Vaisya or member of a literate, mercantile caste, who had risen from humble circumstances ..." and Kolff says "Hemu himself was a Baniya entrepreneur". So, yes, Kolff does not say that he was born in such a family but Richards does (caste was inherited). It would be better to say "Hemu was a Hindu Vaisya", sure. I've never had any issue with amending the text: my issue has been the desire to whitewash using sources - in this case from the Bhargarva community - that we simply never have accepted as being reliable in any article on Wikipedia. Find some decent non-caste association etc sources and then we show the context properly. I've no objection to 3O but some background knowledge of the sourcing problems relating to caste articles, of the caste-ist warfare/pov-pushing that goes on and of processes such as sanskritisation are very relevant. Sudhirkbhargava is, quite obviously, from that community. - Sitush (talk) 14:47, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I think that it might help to review this discussion and this one. - Sitush (talk) 14:52, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the exact quotes, Sitush. I do mean to examine and discuss the reliability of the proposed sources, and whether they support the proposed text... but first, it would be helpful to know clearly what those proposed sources and text are. Hence my question above to (and below) to Sudhir. Abecedare (talk) 15:58, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Sudhir, you wrote "I had composed a para on 21st june...". Looking back at the article history, this is the para I found on the page on that date:

Hem Chandra was born in a Hindu family, in present day district of Alwar of Rajasthan state on Vijyadashmi day or Dussera day in the year 1501. His father Rai Puran Das was a Purohit by profession. Hemu's family migrated to Qutabpur, Rewari while Hemu was still a child. After his formal education in Qutabpur, he took the profession of Business and became a supplier of various merchandise, mainly cannons and gunpowder to Sher Shah Suri's army and was called a Vaishya

Is this the paragraph and sources you wish to include in the article ? If not, as I asked before, can you quote exactly the proposed sentences and sources? Abecedare (talk) 15:58, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

That is right. But addition of Brahmin to Hindu family in first line. Like "Hem Chandra was born in a Hindu-Brahmin family,Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 16:29, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Ok thanks. Now that we have the proposed sources, lets see what they have to say on the topic

• Richards: "Hemu, a Hindu Vaisya or member of a literate, mercantile caste, who had risen from humble circumstances ..." (page 13)
• Kolff: "Hemu himself was a Baniya entrepreneur" (page 163)
• Edwardes: "King Adil, ..., had raised Hemu, a Biania of Rewari, to the position of Chief Minister..." (page 22)
• Khan and Hussain: "... Hemu, who had risen from the ranks. He was from the bania or trader class,..." (page 67)

Any other relevant quotes that I might have missed ? Or, any other relevant sources you (Sudhir or Sitush) would like to propose ?

I couldn't locate "Samrat Hem Chandra Vikramaditya published by SHCVDBMC Trust, Rakmo Press, New Delhi" online, or on Worldcat. Sudhir, can you provide the complete bibliographical details (author, year, ISBN) for that source and the relevant quote from page 3 ? Abecedare (talk) 16:47, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Abecedare, you really do need to read those two discussions which I linked above. Please. They contain some sources and they make it clear that I am not opposed to mentioning a claim of Brahmin background if a decent source or two can be found. The ball has been stuck in one side of the court since May because those sources have not been provided and they are still not provided in the quotes that you give above, none of which mention Brahmin. In the past, I have suggested that this source needs to be utilised in order to mine the various opinions but I've got nowhere due to blind insistence that the guy is a Brahmin, period. I've not looked into whether that source could be used directly but the people it cites are certainly acceptable, provided that someone has access to them. I know what your opinion will be already, ie: that this is not an either/or situation and that there are contrasting academic views - that has been my position throughout, both here and in relation to the Brahmin article referred to in those linked discussions. - Sitush (talk) 17:19, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Two sources with ISBN and some other references are :

• 1) "Early Aryans to Swaraj", By SRBakshi, Vol. 5, Medieval India, p163, ISBN 8176255378 , which says In contemporary chronicles he is called Baqqual or Vaishya but he was in act , a Bhargava (Brahmin of Gaur sub caste)
• 2)"Hemu And His Times", By MLBhargava, published by :Reliance Publishing House, New Delhi, ISBN 81-85047-93-6, pages 1-18, describe* Hemu's Heredity, Parentage, Caste, Community, Gotra and Kuldevi
• 3)"The Successors of Sher Shah by Nirodh Bhushan Roy, written in 1934, has mentioned that Hemu was born in a Bhargava Dhusar family, a sub caste of Gaur Brahmins
• 4)Gazetteer of Alwar, 1878 AD, p 164 also Imperial Gazetteer Vol. 3, page 286
• 5)Tods Annals and Antiquities Part 1, p 436-439, which describe Hemu's community as Dhusar Brahmins

There are many other Books in Hindi and Urdu which mention Hemu as Brahmin but you may not be able to see them. However, I can mail the scanned copies of them. It is important to note that those who have written him a Vaishya do not mention any thing about his birth, parentage, relatives and decendents. They mention him a Vaishya because Hemu did business also during his initial carreer.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 18:17, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm pleased that you are now providing some sources that might mention his Brahmin state. However, James Tod and the Imperial Gazetteers are not reliable sources. I cannot see a mention of him on p. 163 of Bakshi, as shown on Google Books - what edition are you looking at? what name is used for him in that book? I'll try to take a look at the other two in an hour or so. - Sitush (talk) 18:47, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Sudhir, Can you specify exact quotes from the first three books you list above instead of paraphrasing their content ? (Take your time; we don't have to resolve this long-standing discussion in a matter of hours or 1-2 days!)

Sitush, I agree with you that James Tod and Imperial Gazetteers are not appropriate sources for a subject which has been covered by plenty of secondary literature. By the way, I like this book that you pointed above and which seems to be on the point and potentially usable (The author was a reader at a West Bengal college and the book is carried by at least a few academic libraries; not a gold-plated source but above average for this article). But lets give Sudhir a chance to produce sources (with quotes) that support his proposed text more directly, before we try to pick and choose the best sources and fashion the exact text for the article. Abecedare (talk) 19:42, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I could find several references on Google Books it self, which describe Hemu a Brahmin, First from 2 books mentioned above:

• The first book 'Early Aryans to Swaraj' by SRBakshi and others, Vol 5, p.163, exact wordings are " A resident of Rewari, Hemu was a Dhusar Bhargava*, and in his early days used to sell salt in the streets of his town. The aestrix explains that-in contemporary chronicles he is called Baqqual or Vaishya but he was in fact, a Bhargava (Brahmin of Gaur sub caste)."
• In the second book 'Hemu and His Times' by MLBhargava, pages numbered 1-18 are devoted to his Heredity, Parentage, Relatives, Community, Caste, Gotra, Kuldevi. Page no. 169 give the geneological table of Hemu's ancestors and his descendents. Page 170 gives the geneological table of Hemu's sister's son General Ramaya, whose ancestors were the 'Rajpurohits' of Hindu Kings in Delhi from 970 AD (time of Kumarpala) to 1191 AD (time of Prithvi Raj Chauhan).

Some of the Books and references available in Google Books are as follows :

• 1)'India's Historical Battles': From Alexander the Great to Kargil by Kaushik Roy, p. 68: exact words are "Hem Chandra was born in a Gaur Brahmin family of Alwar in Rajasthan. The heredity profession of his family was agriculture. However, some members of his family were traders of saltpetre, one of the chief components of Gunpowder. This probably explains Hemu's familiarity with firearms from a young age.". Also p 73, exact words are " Hemu's sister's son, Ramaya, a fat Brahmin, commanded the left wing."
• 2)'Genaral Knowledge Digest 2010', by Tmh; p 2130; under sub heading Successes: exact words are " Before Humanyun reconquered Delhi in 1555, three different rulers were crowned. During this time the real power lay in the hands of a Brahmin General named Hemu"
• 3)'A History of Rajasthan' by Reema Hooja, p 442, Rupa & CO. Delhi, exact words are "as Dhusar is also a sub caste among Gaur Brahmins, Hemu may have been a Brahmin"
• 4)'Advanced study in the History of Medieval India', by J.L.Mehta, page 190, exact words are " Soon after Humanyun's death, Agra and Delhi were occupied by Hem Chandra, nicknamed Hemu Baqqal (Viz. Baniya) the brilliant Prime Minister and indomitable commander in chief of Muhammad Adil Shah Sur. Originally, he belonged to a Brahmin family of Rewari"
• 5)'Land & People of Indian States and UT, Vol 9, p 338, 2006, by SCBhatt & Gopal K Bhargava; exact words are " The celebrated warrior-general, Hemu was a Dhosar Brahmin"
• 6)'Akbar the Great: Political History, 1542-1605 AD, p. 24, by ALShrivastva-1973; exact words are " Probably a Gaur Brahmin of Dhusar sub-caste (modern Bhargava) and of puny physique 'Hemu rose by gradual steps on account of his intelligence, loyality and great qualities of leadership until he became the de facto ruler of the Sur Empire."
• 7)'Life and Achievements of Muhammad Bairam Khan' By Ram Kishore Pandey-1978, p 137, exact words are "Hemu had risen from a small position of vendor to that of Chief Minister and General merely by his ability. He is mentioned as a low born Hindu but his defendents claim that he was a Brahmin and belonged to Rewari"
• 8)'Whar Ails the Indian Army', A report to the Supreme Commander, p 79, By Man Mohan Sharma 1998; Exact words are " The second battle of Panipat was fought between Hemu Bakal and Akbar. Hemu a Gaur Brahmin by Caste was the Prime Minister in the court of Moh. Shah Adil, a descendent of Sher Shah Suri."
• 9)'Indica' Vol. 19, p 27, 1982; exact words are " Adil Shah's successful Brahmin General Hemu, paused in Delhi to crown himself Emperor of Hindustan with revivalist title of Vikramaditya"
• 10)'The History of India', 1000AD-1707 AD p. 438 ALShrivastva 1964; exact words are " Besides the presence of the three Sur rivals, Akbar's greatest enemy was Hemu, the Hindu. In contemporary chronicles he is called Bakal or Vaishya, but he was, in fact a Bhargava (Brahmin of Gaur sub-caste)"
• 11)'Historical Perspective of Warfare in India: some morals, By Sri Nandan Prasad, p 29: exact words are : "Hemu the commander-in-chief of the Pathan army at Panipat II (ad 1556) was of course, a Brahmin "
• 12)'Military History of India' By Hemendra Chandra Kar; 1980, p 282, exact words are " But the most formidable enemy was Hemu, king Abdali's capable Hindu Minister and General. A Gaur Brahmin of very humble origin and puny physique, Hemu rose the hard way to the rank of Prime Minister and General by dint of his rare capabilities."
• 13)'Report on the revision of the assessment of the Gurgaon district, by J Wilson, 1884, p 33, exact words are " The Dhusars claim to be descendents from Brahmins, but do not intermarry with them or receieve charity; they derive their name from Dhosi, a flat topped hill near Narnaul, where their ancestors had lived. The famous Hemu was a Dhusar of Rewari."
• 14)'Haryana District Gazetteers, Mahendragarh, Haryana, India, p. 328, by Kiran Prem, exact words are "The celebrated warrior-General Hemu was a Dhosar (Brahmin). This place, Dhosi is considered most sacred and is regarded as a Tirth"

I think these are sufficient references to prove that Hemu was a Brahmin by birth and those who called him a Vaishya was, because he supplied merchandise to Suris in the beginning of his carreer.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 07:53, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Sudhirkbhargava, I have previously referred you to WP:NPOV but I think that you might also need to read WP:RS. Furthermore, it is seems very likely that you are using the snippet view feature of Google Books, assuming that you are based in India, the UK or the USA. You can't use snippet views because there is no context. Nonetheless, I'll do my best to check these out using various proxy servers. - Sitush (talk) 08:10, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

• 1. Roy is snippet view only. I also suspect that it is original research to suggest that because his nephew was a Brahmin then so too must have been Hemu
• 2. General Knowledge Digest has been rejected as a reliable source on numerous occasions because it lacks depth and is basically an examination crib sheet/cramming book
• 3. A History of Rajasthan. Snippet view only and even in your limited qyuotation it uses the words "may have been". Furthermore, in the adjacent earlier snippet view it says "He is believed to have been a resident of Machheri ... and may have belonged to the merchant bania sub-caste called Dhusar, though there ..." This is actually a very good demonstration of why snippet views are not acceptable
• 4. I cannot see the relevant page of Advanced study in the History of Medieval India
• 5. We cannot use Land & People of Indian States & UT because it is published by Gyan. See User:Sitush/Common#Gyan for some background info.
• 6. Akbar the Great: Political History, 1542-1605 AD is snippet view only and in any case is another that speculates even in the quotation that you give.
• 7. Life and Achievements of Muhammad Bairam Khan is snippet view and even in the quote that you give seems to be undecided
• 8. Whar Ails the Indian Army' is snippet view and in any event I strongly suspect it is a pretty useless passing mention because the book title suggests that it is not really a work on medieval India
• 9. I presume this is Encyclopedia Indica, which has been rejected as a source because it has been shown to assemble unattributed copyright violations of other people's work, eg: a book by Bamber Gascoigne. Since the stuff is unattributed, we can't determine its reliability
• 10. The History of India', 1000AD-1707 AD is snippet view only and simply not good enough. Are you seriously telling me that you would accept that quotation without examining why Shrivastava is so adamant that the contemporary chronicles were wrong? Perhaps they do explain but if so then we cannot see that
• 11. I've no idea how to find this book - need more info
• 12. Ditto
• 13. Raj source - forget it
• 14. Another Raj source, although in this case edited by someone of more recent vintage. As a general rule, we do not use these because they tend to lack academic rigour. In any event, it is another snippet view.

So, sorry but you've done a lot of digging around but not really advanced things greatly. - Sitush (talk) 08:49, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Sudhir for digging up the sources, and Sitush for your review and critique. To add to few to Sitush's reviews:

• I didn't find "Early Aryans to Swaraj" by SR Bakshi (I assume you mean vol 5 dealing with Medieval India) on Google Books; Sudhir, can you provide a link? Also the quote you provide from this work matches the quote snippet from Shrivastava's "The History of India" which seems very odd since it often is a sign that, as with Gyan publishers, the text has been taken from wikipedia or similar sources!
• I couldn't read more than a snippet of ML Bhargava's "Hemu and his times" on Google Books? Do you have access to the complete work; if you so can you send us a link or scan? Incidentally, the quote I read said, "... they now claim to be Bhargava Brahmin, though still following the vocation of trade" (emphasis added), which well illustrates the inherent dangers of trying to decipher authors meaning based on snippet views, which lack complete context.
• I did find 11. Historical Perspectives of Warfare in India and 12. Military history of India but the quoted extracts are just passing references in larger works on general military history, and thus of minimal value since we have much better and comprehensive sources on Hemu and that period of history.

As for the others I largely agree with Sudhir's reviews above about the quality of sources. At this point, instead of gathering more quote snippets from Google Books my suggestion would be to try to refashion the current article text on Hemu's birth, early life and caste (which would include a brief mention of claims that he was a Brahmin, Vaishya etc) based on the sources already quoted in the article and (say) this one. If that sounds reasonable I can try my hand at drafting the text within the next day or so. Abecedare (talk) 15:03, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks ! Abecedare, for spending time. You can try drafting but please see that his birth is Brahmin and profession was busines, so Vaishya.

Following sources mention very clearly that Hemu belonged to Brahmin caste, with no doubts. In fact his mention as a Vaishya is in passing reference and only on the basis of his being a businessman, not birth. Though some of the references above can be rejected, the following ones are very clear:

• Bakhshi's Vol. 5, is available on Google Books. I got it looking for Brahmin Hemu on Google books. Wordings are very clear as mentioned above on page 163.
• MLBhargava's book, which I possess, first 1- 16 pages, which are relevent can be scanned and sent. Please tell me where ?
• Roy's India's Historical Battles', is not a snippet view. page 68 very clearly mentions that about birth of Hem Chandra in a Gaur Brahmin family of Rajasthan.
• Sr. No. 4 JLMehta's is also not snippet, and total page can be seen on Google books, looking for 'Brahmin Hemu'
• Sr. No. 8, MMSharma clearly mentions the caste of Hemu.
• Sr. No. 10, ALShrivastva clearly ridicules calling him a Vaishya and mentions that he was a Bhargava ( Gaur Brahim ).
• Sr. No. References at 11 and 12, which Sitush could not find are on Google Books, and can be searched as 'Brahmin Hemu'

The book Himu by Sarkar has too many quotations from various authors and confusing. I think Wikipedia should carry facts and truths and not confusing stories. The above para which I had written, and you wanted to know, is clear on the fact that he was born in a Brahmin family and was called a Vaishya because he was involved in business.Thanks.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 17:28, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for outdenting but I'm blowed if I'm going to sort out that mess of indentations just above ;) Sudhir, it now becomes apparent to me why you are struggling here. You ask us to search for "Brahmin Hemu" but that is not the way one should conduct research because it will tend to provide one-sided evidence. You need to read and evaluate sources thoroughly, not harvest one-liners to suit your own position. If you did so then you would not make the statement above, ie: "please see that his birth is Brahmin". Research can be difficult but you have to approach it with an open mind. - Sitush (talk) 17:42, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

His birth in a Brahmin family and parentage is a biological and scientific fact. I am not doing any research on that. The solid references on Hemu's birth which i have in Hindi, Urdu and English books are not on the Net which I can cite you. So I looked in Google books.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 18:03, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Sudhir, it doesn't work like that. I've tried to explain this on numerous occasions but it seems not to be sinking in: if reliable sources hold differing opinions then we have to reflect those differing opinions. For whatever it is worth, Bhargarva was not a medievalist and his work was mostly concerned with post-1857 events; similarly, I'm not too happy about using Sunil Kumar Sarker directly because his specialism is English & American literature! However, the Sarker book does reference academic specialists in some detail & I've been hoping for months that someone might be able to get a copy of those. - Sitush (talk) 18:42, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Sudhir, Can you provide a link to the Google book page for the Bakshi book ? I still didn't find it (although I did find the JL Mehta book I had missed earlier).

I'll take another look at the other references you list (and will wait to read the Bhargava pages you'll be emailing) and will add my comments here (may be by tomorrow). We can discuss the clarity versus accuracy issue, once I have had the chance to draft a proposed text. Cheers.

PS: I agree with Sitush that searching Google Books for "Hemu + Brahmin" is not a desirable research technique, but I'd suggest that we don't get distracted into a discussion of that issue right now. I think we have plenty of refs by now, found by different search techniques, and we can move on to crafting text that will help improve the article.Abecedare (talk) 17:52, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Bakshi book was mentioned by sitush also on 28-6-2013 above, which he considered reliable. Link is also given above. Thanks.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 02:15, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Still waiting comments from Abecedare to continue discussions. Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 07:33, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Almost a month has passed, and third opinion is still awaited. Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 17:14, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Still awaiting a response from Sitush and Abecedare to finalise the page.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 09:11, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

What response are you awaiting from me? I thought you had sent something to Abecedare for review? - Sitush (talk) 11:11, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I did send the references as desired to abecedare and still waiting for response and edits. He is busy at present and page remains incomplete as many sentences have been deleted.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 16:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Mea culpa. Will post my thoughts within a day. Abecedare (talk) 16:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Sources

The sourcing for this article is appalling. Many are old and almost all of them lack proper citations. Please can we improve on this, eg: provide publisher, date of publication, full author names, links or ISBNs etc. - Sitush (talk) 09:00, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Hemu's Caste

Hemu's caste has been a contentious issue in the past. Though he was born in a Brahmin family to a Purohit Sant Puran Das in village Devti Maccheri, District Alwar, in Rajasthan in the year 1501, historians mentioned him a Vaishya (Businessman) because Hemu was a successful businessman before he joined Sur administration as Market Superintendant, adviser to Islam Shah Suri etc. Hemu had got involved in business at a young age. Issue of caste of Hemu should be settled once for all, because facts enhance the value of any page on Wikipedia. It is requested to those who do not subscribe to these facts to quote any source which says that he was born in a Vaishya family.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 14:04, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I've no idea why you have started a new thread - you were involved with Talk:Hemu#Hemu.27s_Caste_by_Birth_and_Profession and I'm still awaiting a response there. - Sitush (talk) 14:28, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Early life section

As a follow-up to the discussion in the above section here is my review of the available sources. (I realize some of these points have been made before, but hope the excercise will still be useful).

Primary sources

The primary sources which form the basis for claims/analysis of Hemu's early life:

• Badauni
• Abu-l-Fazl, Akbarnama vol I

Authoritative secondary sources

Here are the works that are not only written by established historians of medieval India, but the ones that are also cited by other authors on the subject of Hemu. Ideally, these are the sources the bulk of the article should be based upon:

1. RC Majumdar, Hemu: A forgotten Hindu Hero, The History and Culture of the Indian People Vol 7: The Mughal Empire, Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, 1984
2. RC Majumdar, Military history of India,
3. Kalika Ranjan Quango, Sher Shah and his times
4. VA Smith, Akbar, the great Mughal
5. Jadunath Sarkar, Military history of India, 1970
6. Wolseley Haig, The Cambridge history of India, Vol 4, 1971
7. Ishwari Prasad, The Mughal Empire
8. P. Kohli, A short history of Akbar and Mughal administration in India
9. Erskine, A History of India Under the Two First Sovereigns of the House of Taimur, Báber and Humáyun, Volume 2, 1854

Other secondary sources

• Sunil Kumar Sarker, Himu, the Hindu "Hero" of Medieval India: This book contains a useful and (and, per my spot checks) accurate summary of many of the sources listed above, and has the advantage of being accessible on Google Books. But the authors own views on the subject are not by themselves notable (for reasons I can expand upon, if needed) or within the accepted mainstream (for example he estimates Hemu's birth year to be ~1523, which I haven't seen quoted or referenced in any other work)
• Kanwal Kishore Bhardwaj, Hemu: Napoleon of Medieval India: This book has the same pros and cons of the Sarker book mentioned above. Again, IMO, the author should not be referenced for his own views/analysis. A big plus: the book includes Majumdar's Hemu: A forgotten Hindu Hero essay as an appendix.
• ML Bhargava, Hemu and his times: This book is essentially a biography of Hemu as seen from the pov of the Bhargava community. As such, it could be used as a representative example of such a POV, but it should not be regarded as a neutral historical work (for example, here is an extract from the work demonstrating its tone: "...Newaldas [Hemu's father's cousin], was also got [sic] imprisoned. Subsequently Newaldas, due to his supernatural powers and devotion to Radha Ballabh, got himself freed from prison, in all probability, when after the death of Bairam Khan, Akbar relented, and wanted to meet the saint. But as saints and devotees never tried to play psychophant, Newaldas refused to oblige Akbar. Thereupon, he was once more put behind the bars; but he again disappeared as if by miracle")

Proposed text

Here is my proposed text based on some of the sources listed above.

I haven't included inline citations yet, but the above text is based upon Majumdar, Smith, and Erskine that I checked personally, with Sarker and Bhardwaj used to get an idea of other noteworthy opinions (for reasons cited before, I have not included any content from Sarker/Bhardwaj that does not trace back to one of the listed "authoritative sources"). I don't think, we need to reference Hemu's caste at all in the article (because while his Hindu faith is pertinent to his actions and fame; the caste seems to be simple trivia). However, if other involved editors feel that caste needs mentioning, I'd propose the following text based on the sources listed above + Quanungo (of which, unfortunately, I have seen only extracts):

This can be inserted after the "Modern historians..." sentence, although, again, I would recommend simply excluding it.

Comments, objections, additions and tweaks welcome. Abecedare (talk) 23:32, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

If your first version can be achieved without citing pre-independence sources then I'd be very happy. I've long been of the opinion that unless caste is significant to the notability of a person (which is rarely the case) then it has no place in a biographical article and almost always causes more problems than it educates the reader. - Sitush (talk) 23:52, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you that more recent high-quality sources would be preferable, but I did spend some time searching for those and there doesn't seem to be any fresh scholarship on Hemu post-dating Majumdar, Quanango et al (later works are by more lightweight historians like Sarker, Bhardwaj etc, and published by lesser known publishers, and in any case they mainly recite the discoveries/claims of the earlier works). Even a jstor search for "Hemu/Himu/..." throws up a ca 1920 article by VA Smith and little else of note. I'd (sincerely!) love to be proved wrong but I'm afraid we may be stuck here with what we have. Abecedare (talk) 00:07, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't want to make the task any more difficult but I wonder if any more modern sources of repute (ie: ignore Sarker etc) repeat those earlier studies. At least we would then have affirmation of the earlier stuff. I've become somewhat tired of delving into this issue but I'll try one last run-through myself, not to cause any change to your proposal but rather to see if there is any such modern support/citation of the older works. The variant naming conventions always make such searches a complete pain but I'm really not keen on using Raj etc sources directly. Although if needs must ... - Sitush (talk) 00:16, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Fresh eyes would be appreciated because having now spent a few hours on the subject, I'm genuinely curious (completely apart from wiki-editing issues).

And I should clarify my above comment: read "later works are by ..." as "later comprehensive works are by..." (and by comprehensive I simply mean more than a para!). Of course there are numerous more recent textbook histories of the Mughal period, but they seldom (never?) delve into Hemu's background beyond saying that he was a Hindu (sometimes Vaishya Hindu) and that he rose up through the ranks; Thapar, Richards are typical examples. Abecedare (talk) 00:30, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Abecedare for going through various publications on Hemu's caste by birth. I thought some more people, who claimed that Hemu was a Vaishy by birth and created confusion on this issue would also join discussions. But they are not to be found and finally we have three persons discussing the issues. You have a consesus from various authors in your second version, which is more acceptable, though it is not perfect. Your considering Abul Fazl and Badauni as Primary source and basis of your final versions is not appropriate. Firstly they were enemies of Hemu and secondly they made a passing reference to his early life, which for them was not very important, was without much research and based on fact that Hemu started his carreer as a supplier of Gun Powder and Guns to Sher Shah Suri and so a Vaishy. Also your not giving any credence to MLBhargava, one from Hemu's community who had all the authentic info about Hemu and mentioned the relevent details on his community, their living areas, parentage, profession, decendents etc. in his book 'Hemu and His Times'. Calling this information as POV is not appropriate. It is like a 'mother is not given a right to tell her son, who his father is' as it will amount to POV and right to decide about parentage is given to some one sitting thousands of miles off. I think MLBhargava should be given more importance as I have many more evidences to prove his contentions.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 02:41, 26 October 2013 (UTC)