Talk:Sandro Botticelli

Regarding Savonarola

The article says that Botticelli had given up painting in accordance to the preachings of Savonarola. Another biography, [1], suggests otherwise. Can anyone clear this up?

Comment by anon.-possible problem with the article?

I'm not an art person, can anyone who is comment on this edit? JoshuaZ 04:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Only very simple folk might think that there is one painting titled "Adoration of the Magi". --Wetman 08:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

i have a question- i don't believe the "magi" can be a companion piece to "venus" since it was painted years earlier. can this be checked and fixed in the caption to the painting? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.81.89.128 (talk) 04:48, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Botticelli's Last years.

I was going to edit the page outright, but I wanted to give the Wiki people a heads up that Botticelli did not die so much in obscurity, as there are records that prove that he did work beyond what the article states. I just think it's too vague and needs to be revised.

Thanks people —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.31.65.60 (talk) 02:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Addition of content

I've added some bio and paintings info, moved 'religion', and removed the warning tag for expansion, though the article could use more content on life and works. JNW 00:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Question

Hello, I miss a great work of Botticelli: The Chart of Hell (drawing in Divine Comedy).

You can find more information about it via The European Library. For instance, it is the 11th treasure on http://libraries.theeuropeanlibrary.org/VaticanCity/treasures_en.xml

What shall I do? Should I link to it, create a page or mention it somewhere else, e.g. possibly wiki on Divine Comedy?

Thanks, Fleurstigter 16:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The Primavera and Birth of Venus were not painted for Castello

The article states that "The masterworks Primavera (c. 1478) and The Birth of Venus (c. 1485) were both painted for the villa of Lorenzo di Pierfrancesco de' Medici at Castello". This is not actually true. Inventories published by Shearman have shown that the Primavera was actually painted for the town house of Lorenzo di Pierfrancesco de'Medici in Via Larga Florence and that it was moved to/hung in Castello at a later date. The same inventories also suggest that the Birth of Venus was not actually a Medici commission at all but was originally painted for someone, somewhere else - the painting, like the Primavera, was however, hanging in Castello by the time of the inventory of 1499.137.205.251.1 14:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Would you mind revising this information in the article itself, especially if you can cite the source of scholarship? Thanks, JNW 18:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Done. Found a link with the scholarship you referred to. JNW 14:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

"Lamentation Over The Dead Christ" - links reversed in Anthology

There are two of these, one dated c. 1490 (Munich) and one dated c. 1495 (Milan). The links in the article are reversed, and should be corrected. This is my first Wikipedia posting, so have no idea how to do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danby16 (talk • contribs) 22:47, July 4, 2007

Thanks--done. A little cut and paste. JNW 03:15, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Template

Is there a need for both a fairly exhaustive list of works, and an equally comprehensive template as well? Even one, in full extent, is more than enough here. JNW 22:04, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

IMO, large footer templates should be collapsed by default to avoid this problem. Viriditas (talk) 09:30, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Lorenzo de' Medici

The paragraph `Less than a hundred years later, this movement, under the patronage of Lorenzo de' Medici, was characterized by Giorgio Vasari as a "golden age"' is not clear. The upshot is that Vasari said that less than 100 years later than the time of Lorenzo de' medici; can anyone find a better wording for the paragraph? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.74.156.70 (talk) 16:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Birth Year

In the aritcle it says the date of his birth including the year/s '1444/45'. What does this mean? Which year was he born in? Could someone clarify this soon please unless it is not a mistake in which case please explain. I'm going to change it to 1445 as that is what it seems to be according to other sources. If there is a reason not change it please inform me of it.Heytaytay99 (talk) 07:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The external link is dead, for your information

Now removed, but you could have done that yourself.... Lee M 01:20, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Resurrecting an old thread... The source currently cited ([2]) says 1445 at the top but 1444 in the first paragraph, plus we have an uncited 1446 from an IP ([3]). Anyone? Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 00:45, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Editors have added different dates because the sources are all over the map depending on when published...Vasari gave the year as 1447, and this date is found in books published before 1900. Some historians in the first decade of the 20th century favored 1446. Borenius (1916) wrote that there was "some reason to think" the correct date fell between February 18, 1444-February 18, 1445, and mid 20th century sources usually follow him by giving the birthdate as 1444-1445. The latest sources seem to be settling on 1445 (Schneider 2002; Patrick, Renaissance and Reformation vol 1, 2007). I'm not an expert on Botticelli and don't know if historians have really settled the matter beyond question, but 1446 seems to be out. The NNDB source is manifestly confused and shouldn't be cited as a RS. Ewulp (talk) 03:47, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Ewulp. That sounds very reasonable. I've noted the disagreement among sources in the article ([4]), using c. as per MOS:DATES. The way I've cited R&R is probably not quite right. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 12:47, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Birth of year

well according to the NGA (National Gallery of Art) the correct date is 1446 - 1510

reference: http://www.nga.gov/collection/gallery/gg7/gg7-30.0.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.53.115.153 (talk) 03:44, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Misecllaneous

Is there anything in the article to suggest why the marker "gay, lesbian, or bisexual' has been added to Botticelli's article?

The addition was made by User:Bearcat, 23:04, 22 Jan 2005. --Wetman 23:10, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

I bugged Bearcat about this, politely, and we had this exchange:

"The bottom line is that I added the category tag because he was on the List of famous gay, lesbian or bisexual people; I really don't know enough about him to add anything biographical." Bearcat 22:54, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Let's "de-Out" him. The list loses any interest if it gets fuzzy edges." --Wetman 23:21, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's likely that the source came from the charge found in the Florentine Archives by Mesner in the 1930s. I've clarified the detail in the article, but haven't restored the LGBT category tag. Contaldo80 (talk) 08:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

So Sandy's not gay any more. --Wetman 23:21, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Imcomprehensive

This article does not mention the Mystical Nativity, yet it is one of Botticelli's most famous works. Why, eh, why! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.254.219.71 (talk) 19:01, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I've reverted good-faith references to the painting, because the content was unsourced and read as original research. Perhaps references citing reliable sources can be found to support its claims, and the prose can be revised, too. Thanks, JNW (talk) 21:55, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I had to revert a big copyvio at the painting also. Johnbod (talk) 22:04, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Pre-Raphaelites - Botticelli fans or not?

Just watched a TV programme saying the PRB were very influenced by Botticelli, and this link at http://www.theearthlyparadise.com/2008/09/botticelli-and-pre-raphaelites.html seems to bear it out: but this article says they "ignored" him. Who's right? RLamb (talk) 13:09, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Suzanne Fagence Cooper, art historian " from the moment Botticelli's art is shown in Manchester there's a real change in opinion about his work and..B. becomes a real cult figure somebody the artists who aspire to be on the cutting edge of the art world are looking to - the The Mystical Nativity (Botticelli) worked a particular magic on members of the pre-raphaelite circle - the artists Dante Gabriel Rossetti and Edward Burne-Jones both adapted elements of it for their own work"... the writer and atist John Ruskin helped to give the painting its name,

Rossetti was very interested in figures locked in embrace..

and I think you can see a sort of resonance there with the embracing figures at the bottom of tthe Mystic Nativity (Suzanne Fagence Cooper, art historian)

after seeing it ( the mystic nativity) in London he referred to Botticelli's 'mystic symbolism' and the adjective stuck' (Private Life of a Christmas Masterpiece, BBC, December 2009)..I think the ' they ignored Botticelli' bit should go. Sayerslle (talk) 22:35, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Private life

I'm having trouble with the paragraph that begins "The popular view is..." Is that the part Contaldo80 is referring to? I don't have the Lightbown in front of me, but this info, which is certainly all over the internet, doesn't seem to be substantiated anywhere, least of all here. All of the supposed "Simonettas" date to after her death. I visited Ognissanti this summer & it seemed to me that Botticelli's grave is not in fact near the Vespucci chapel. Do we give the unrequited love thing credence or is it a romantic myth? Albiart (talk) 00:21, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I've re-included the text on Botticelli's private life. I was not convinced that this information is too obscure for conclusion - unless someone can demonstrate thus. It is covered in several sources, which have been cited. I accept it is not a big issue when considering Botticelli and his work, but therefore the length of the text is accordingly proportionate. Nor am I convinced that Lightbrown should be regarded as the major source to determine inclusion - he is an art specialist (albeit with an excellent pedigree) but that does not mean that he is a reliable biographer or historian. Contaldo80 (talk) 09:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

nationality

I was once told that Botticelli rejected the label "Italian", and fought a duel over it. Whether that's true or not, "Nationality: Italian" in the infobox is questionable for the time. —Tamfang (talk) 19:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

No that's the way we do it. Strangely it's always Italians people complain about, never Germans. Go figure. Johnbod (talk) 22:13, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps because there was a tenuous entity that included most Germans. —Tamfang (talk) 04:40, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Fully argee with Tamfang. Mootros (talk) 20:10, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Johnbod...Modernist (talk) 20:18, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't see the consensus that Mootros refers to. Isn't the ascription of nationality based on a longstanding acceptance in art historical writings....not to mention every library I've ever been in? JNW (talk) 20:30, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

The longstanding acceptance is towards ethic and cultural origins, hence we have a Dutch school. I cannot see that is has been extended to the idea of nationality. Perhaps we are discovering that particularly art historians have been operating rather ahistorical. Mootros (talk) 20:37, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Without seeking to discount the thought you propose, or argue re: the chronology of the founding of a nation, the issue might be whether or not it constitutes original research. If the bulk of published scholarship continues to refer to nationality, then that's what the encyclopedia uses. JNW (talk) 20:50, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely, but do they really say this, that's what I wonder. "Nationality"... most don't, I guess. I leave this as thought for food for you art historians. However, I cannot see any credible mainstream historian, or any current mainstream historiographer making such assertion. Mootros (talk) 20:58, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) Try the Metropolitan Museum of Art: "The name and nationality of the maker(s) of the object are given, if known."[5] In the case of Botticelli it is "Italian, Florentine".[6] We follow reliable sources, not the opinions of editors. Ty 02:15, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

It looks more like an opinion to me, the way you interpret a library/ museums classification term in the info box. If you want to follow the source, the info box should state "library/ museums classification's nationality" Most info boxes use the term nationality in a completely different way. What is to be gained by introducing this historical inaccuracy? Lets move the discussion over here, where this is already discussed: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Visual_arts#Nationality_in_infoboxes_.5BNationality_deletions.5D Thank you. Mootros (talk) 06:37, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Born in Italy?

I don't think there was any Italy when Botticelli was born. Italy was founded at the end of the 19th century. Why such inaccuracy? Mootros (talk) 20:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

See my post after (unindent) in the preceding section. Ty 02:16, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Where does it say born in Italy. Mootros (talk) 06:39, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

The infobox has a separate entry for where he was born, so that is not at issue. Ty 13:56, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

The issue is he was not born in Italy, as this box claims. Mootros (talk) 13:33, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think reverting and counter-reverting within individual articles--Botticelli and Rembrandt-- is the way to resolve this. It ends up being a battle of wills and leads to edit warring, perhaps the least preferable mode. If there is to be a discussion, the place to continue it is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts, and bring sources rather than original research. Mootros, I comprehend your point, but you are acting unilaterally, and thus far you don't appear to be interested in consensus. JNW (talk) 21:13, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes you are right it should be discussed at WikiProject Visual arts. To be honest, I am in shock and disbelief that a GA article like Rembrandt is passed with such mistakes (stating born in the Netherlands, not even something "what is nowadays called NL") and when one corrects this, it is instantly reverted. I am not interested in editwarring but currently I am rather shocked. Attitudes by other editors as shown on this page with statements "No that's the way we do it" are not particularly inviting. Mootros (talk) 23:42, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I have move the discussion over here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Visual_arts#Place_of_birth_in_infoboxes Please do respond over there instead. Thank you. Mootros (talk) 00:04, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Born March 1???

Other wikipedies say the date Botticelli born was in March 1. The sources are spanish, italian and french's wikipedia. Moreover in the page March 1 on the Birth was the note of Botticelli. And in the page of 1445 also is write the day March 1. What is the reason whose date wasn't write on this page? --83.53.215.109 (talk) 16:59, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Early Life Education?

Hi,

I am by no means an expert on this subject, but I was confused by the Early Life section. The sentence "[Botticelli] became an apprentice when he was about fourteen years old, which would indicate that he received a fuller education than the other Renaissance artists" seems incorrect to me. I know off the top of my head that Da Vinci was apprenticed at a young age, and that Michelangelo was educated by the de Medici family from a young age. Does anyone have a citation for this sentence? I kinda think it should be deleted, but I wanted to see if anyone else had any other opinions. DeCombray (talk) 15:53, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The point is indeed that 14 was rather late to begin an apprenticeship at that time, and about the usual time to finish a full schooling, whereas most artist apprentices dropped out of school for the studio. Johnbod (talk) 15:57, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I think the understandable confusion is due to the words "fuller education". As written, it's not clear if that means a more diverse and thorough education outside of painting or a more comprehensive training within his chosen specialization. HIs late start in apprenticeship is noteworthy, yet the second clause of the sentence would benefit from clarification. A citation would be helpful as well.Ctconnolly (talk) 05:50, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Replacing article with 1911 Encyclopedia Brittanica text

Hi everyone. I'm a big fan of Botticelli, and also a big fan of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, which, as you might know, is out of copyright and therefore free for us to use in creating Wikipedia articles. It's quite comprehensive and well written. Here is its entry on Botticelli, for example:

scans: http://archive.org/stream/encyclopaediabri04chisrich#page/306/mode/2up

text: http://archive.org/stream/encyclopaediabri04chisrich/encyclopaediabri04chisrich_djvu.txt

I think we should replace the current Wikipedia article on Botticelli with the text from the Encyclopedia Britannica entry. What do you think of this idea?

Don Quixote de la Mancha (talk) 02:17, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion replacing our current article with a copy of a 1911 article doesn't sound appealing. It seems to be a reasonably good source - I haven't read the text - add important and relevant text here sourced to the 1911 Britannica...Modernist (talk) 02:34, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

No thanks! Far too many of our Old Master bios still are EB 1911, which this probably once was too. The art articles were singled out for criticism at the time, and are now very outdated. Johnbod (talk) 02:35, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

What's the point of simply using EB as a replacement? The reason we have wikipedia is so individuals can construct their own articles. Contaldo80 (talk) 08:37, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

The point would be to create the best possible encyclopedia. I thought that was the point of Wikipedia, not just to provide a forum for people to write things. There are blogs for that. Don Quixote de la Mancha (talk) 15:03, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

If you're just saying that EB is by default a better resource than wikipedia then I suspect you've missed the point of wikipedia. Contaldo80 (talk) 09:09, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I would guess that most of the information from the 1911 article is still useful and relevant. Any newer information could be added, with the 1911 article as the foundation. Don Quixote de la Mancha (talk) 15:09, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Prefer not to replace with 1911 EB. Truthkeeper (talk) 15:07, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

I am against the idea of replacing the current Wikipedia article with the Botticelli article in the 1911 EB. If there are claims made in the EB article that anyone feels are worthy of entry into the Wikipedia article then their inclusion may be considered by the Wikipedia community. Even reading the first few sentences of the EB article raises concerns for me. Should Botticelli's father be described as a "struggling tanner"? What is the evidence for this claim? When I read Ronald Lightbown's 1989 monograph on Botticelli (Sandro Botticelli: Life and Work), I don't recall him conveying the idea that Botticelli's father was struggling professionally in the sense of not doing at all well or failing in his profession. The author of the EB article disagrees with Vasari over the source of Botticelli's name, but provides no citation to support his claim. In fact, the EB article has no citations at all, just a bibliography. That style of encyclopedic scholarship is antithetical to the citation standards of Wikipedia. Even as I type this I am reading the sentence that is an essential part of the article and editing guidelines for Wikipedia: "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable". The only way to verify every individual claim made in the 1911 EB article would be to read every text in its bibliography while diligently taking notes. Then there would be the need to also examine the sources of these sources with healthy scholarly minds. Then contradictory and contrasting scholarship would need to be taken into consideration. Once that is accomplished I would prefer that citations be made directly and specifically from EB's bibliographic sources and not from the 1911 EB article.Ctconnolly (talk) 16:55, 6 June 2012 (UTC)