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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 79.176.189.89 (talk) at 21:47, 11 November 2013 (→Introduction and notable guests). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

International sources needed ... new section titles

I improved the section titles to conform to WP neutrality requirements ... so I think the article is good in that regard. I did not change any content. The big remaining problem with this article is that it reads like a long list of criticisms by Western sources. Although those are valid and belong in the article, RT is a global network, so reviews/assessments from around the world are needed to round out the article and make it encyclopedic. Maybe inquiries could be made at other WPs for input ... e.g. to get translations of their RT articles & sources. --Noleander (talk) 15:57, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree on foreign sources. Just haven't found too many. Hmmm, I guess we could look up articles on RT in foreign language Wikis and then translate and see what info by what WP:RS seems good :-) CarolMooreDC 16:05, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I've done that a couple of times with foreign WPs ... although strictly speaking, the editor adding material must read the sources themselves (see WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT). Also, foreign WPs are not valid sources. There was a debate I saw once about whether it was legitimate to copy & translate material from foreign WPs, but I don't think there was a conclusive Yes or Not that it is permitted. --Noleander (talk) 16:12, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me it's grown more acceptable last couple years, probably because of google translate. But it shouldn't be in an article unless there is such a translation. CarolMooreDC 18:27, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I used some of your section titles and put "expansion" note where new info is needed in my revert to the October 12 version and good changes to that version. I actually HAVE some of that info spread out over several "add" files which have to put together, plus do some more research since accidentally deleted a whole file of new add material. If at first you don't succeed... CarolMooreDC 18:05, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Notable guests" section discussion

I put back the big list with a "discuss note" so here's the discussion:

  • Title: I can't remember why Festermunk was against "Notable" since all the guests I listed ARE notable enough to have Wikipedia articles. So if someone has an opinion on removing it, do tell.
  • About four are mentioned by WP:RS (underlined) and I've collected about 5 or 6 more not overly notable ones. However even Festermunk wasn't adverse to mentioning some of these. I guess anyone who cares can put an X on the ones who only have RT link to inteview to see which ones might be considered for the list. I'll put in my Xs as most notable/interesting.
    • Politicians (can be described by nationality or not?) British politicians Nigel FarageXx Laurence Kaye (UK Pirate Party UK) and Jeremy Corbyn; French politician Marine Le PenXx; Israeli politician Avraham BurgXx;
    • Former US government officials Henry KissingerXx, Jesse Ventura, David Stockman, Richard PerleX and Paul Craig Roberts;
    • United States Representatives Ron Paulx, Dana RohrabacherX, Walter B. Jones, Jr., Dennis Kucinich and former United States Senator Alan K. SimpsonX;
    • think tank intellectuals John Feffer (Foreign Policy in Focus) and Lawrence Korb (Center for American Progress);
    • journalists and writers Jacob Sullum, Pepe Escobar, Chris HedgesXx, Naomi WolfXx, (Danny Schechter and Glenn Greenwald I'll just mention elsewhere in article)
    • current and former professors Craig Calhoun (head of London School of Economics)Xx, Patrick Michaels , Jeff Cohen and Norman FinkelsteinXx;
    • assorted guests like former lobbyist Jack AbramoffX, investor Jim Rogers, trends forecaster Gerald Celente, Israeli military analyst Uzi Rubin and Apple Inc. co-founder Steve WozniakX.

Thoughts? CarolMooreDC 18:25, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It looks okay: the key thing is that each guest is notable. My only comment would be that the list is a bit large ... I'm thinking 16 to 20 max, per WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Maybe move some of them into a footnote if it gets over 20? --Noleander (talk) 18:36, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm paring the list down by asking people to put an "X" next to ones they like. :-) CarolMooreDC 18:49, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK, above put a small x for Festermunk's choices, and adding a few more ref'd ones. CarolMooreDC 00:19, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's too early in Am to start reverting stuff like Anon Ip's addition of Nick Griffin - with no reference. Thoughts? CarolMooreDC 16:15, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Staff section?

What about a "Staff" section listing a few top-tier managers/executives? At least name them. I think there was a section with 3 listed in the prior version. --Noleander (talk) 18:37, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I should have mentioned that in the more NPOV version most of that material had been moved to the issues criticism paragraphs because what happened was seen more as an RT policy issue or incident related to a specific story. That includes the the broader RT actions on Alexei Navalny/the election/the protests issue of which the Simonyan tweets were just a small part which need a better context. (Question on that in edit/conflict putting in soon.) However, I think there are higher management issues that need to be added under the Organization section, including regarding Simonyan, and whoever else is in charge higher up in Ria Novesti. I don't know right now but have seen mentions and have to research. CarolMooreDC 18:47, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Finally researched the info on opposition leader Navalny and the protests and see there were a couple different stories there, McFaul which seems more relevant to history since the real story is after their dust up he appeared on RT and coverage of him as a protester. Of course, the larger context of Russian paranoia about western governments organizing street protests to replace pro-Russian with pro-US leaders is not explicitly covered and maybe will throw in a sentence when I re-find relevant source. CarolMooreDC 05:52, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

RT as source about itself and news/opinion source in this article

Another editor deleted some of RT's statements about itself as self-serving (two or possibly all three "citation needed" sentences) - as opposed to, say its claims about viewership. Because of the intervening contretempts I never got around to discussing this, or the fact I doubt they'd lie about these things. Any thoughts?

Also I know there is at least one, probably more, RT Opinions and/or article about the Alexei Navalny issue that is relevant to putting in a paragraph on him and the protests and Simonyan's tweets. As long as it is clear it's RT's news or opinion story, and it is more a response to allegations than an assertion of what is true, I don't see a problem with using that material. Thoughts? CarolMooreDC 18:50, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why would they not lie? or at least twist the truth, after all it's their channel. Using RT as a citation itself is problematic because it lends itself to non-neutrality.Oxr033 (talk) 15:44, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

RT funding and ownership

I have done some reading in the RT Wikipedia article in Russian regarding funding and ownership, and did some more digging. I think the intro/lead in English is still a mess and inaccurate Here is the information i managed to gather : So we have the article quoting RIA Novosti -

"RIA-Novosti said in a statement issued last month that it is "neither a sponsor nor a backer of Russia Today" and merely participated in establishing the channel as an Autonomous Non-Profit Organization, which provided for its complete legal, editorial and operational independence." http://rbth.ru/articles/2010/03/23/230310_rt.html

RIA Novosti even published an article on the inaccuracy of the Wikipedia English article here itself (good read) : http://en.rian.ru/agency_news/20120206/171179459.html

I believe that RT in Russia is officially/legally an "Autonomous Non-Profit Organisation (ANO) “TV-Novosti”" as also stated in their disclaimer http://rt.com/about/disclaimer/


A quote from a senior government official from 2005 : "Russia Today will come as an independent company, said Mikhail Seslavinsky, in charge of the Federal Agency for the Press and Mass Communications.

The federal government intends to call the State Duma, parliament's lower house, to amend the year's federal budget for Russia Today financing. The channel will be funded through the Federal Agency for the Press and Mass Communications, by grants and from advertising revenues." http://www.rianovosti.com/society/20050607/40486831.html

the above statement is connected to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_budget_of_Russia

And the 3 references in RT Russian Wikipedia article Do show that they are (RT and RIA Novosti) 2 separate entities having 2 separate budgets : http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=lenta.ru%2Fnews%2F2010%2F08%2F06%2Fsmi%2F&safe=off

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.ng.ru/politics/2006-09-05/1_svobodaslova.html#submit&safe=off

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=www.infox.ru%2Fbusiness%2Fmedia%2F2009%2F01%2F21%2FRussia_Today_ekonomi.phtml&safe=off79.181.8.18 (talk) 03:51, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Alas, the Russia government and those supporting its official positions and statements are not reliable sources for anything else than what they have said, not that what they have said is accurate. When independent authoritative sources indicate RT is genuinely independent of its origins within the Putin cadre with the specific mission to improve Russia's image and promulgate the Russian view of the world--and no longer has those as objectives in any way shape manner or form--we can reflect that. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 04:38, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest when you have a few spare moments you watch it. The news programming is the same as BBC, CNN. Fox, etc. You seem to be confusing news coverage with editorializing. We continually certify Fox News and MSNBC as reliable despite the polemical nature of some of their talk show hosts. (Do you remember Glenn Beck talking about the Founding Fathers and Christianity? Not mainstream, but his show is not news programming.) TFD (talk) 05:00, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see a problem with adding what Russian govt sources say, as long as you identify them that way. Though I think we have more than enough on that topic in the lead; put it in organization/budget. Do articles name anyone as being above Simonyan? A normal nonprofit would or she would have some other title, as does the head of Ria Novosti. I do have more neutral and positive "reception" material to put in, if I don't get too sidetracked tonight by other articles and - external events. ha ha ha. CarolMooreDC 00:16, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Doing some detective work with Google translator in Russian , I found Margarita Simonyan's boss. Basically RT channel is owned by (ANO) TV-Novosti. "ANO" is a legal definition in Russia "Autonomous non-profit organization" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_organization#Russia

The General director (highest executive position in a company, analogous to a U.S CEO) of ANO TV-Novosti is Mr. Sergey Frolov. from the Federal Agency on Press and Mass Communications of the Russian Federation own website : http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.fapmc.ru/rospechat/newsandevents/media/2007/08/item3356.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522%25D0%25A1%25D0%25B5%25D1%2580%25D0%25B3%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B9%2B%25D0%25A4%25D1%2580%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BB%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%2522%2B%2522%25D0%25A0%25D0%2598%25D0%2590-%25D0%259D%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25BE%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D0%25B8%2522%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26tbo%3Dd%26sout%3D1%26biw%3D1061%26bih%3D541&sa=X&ei=7nKdUJ3kL8SF4AS53YGIBA&ved=0CGsQ7gEwCA&

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=www.broadcasting.ru%2Farticles2%2Fallauthors%2F8%2F&safe=off

Interview with him : http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.broadcasting.ru/newstext.php%3Fnews_id%3D25223&usg=ALkJrhh69ime8pXTdvKr8M9_bMuqB4SwVw


I even found the Deputy Director-General , Mrs. Elena Sokolova http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://sokolova-dev-tsukanova.moikrug.ru/%3Fnocookiesupport%3Dyes&usg=ALkJrhiH4MSGNLh9PqEU95fERT6dKyM3oA79.183.1.105 (talk) 18:06, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, forgot to even look at this stuff for useful material. Will remind myself in my "ADD" wordperfect file. CarolMooreDC 22:47, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Don't edit war? (Guests continued)

Thanks for the advice, I suppose, if that's what it was, Carolmooredc. A list of notable guests invited on a network, even if reliably sourced, is in no way encyclopedic. Do you care to add such a list to the BBC article? or even Newsnight? Or Late Show with David Letterman? Come on. It reads like resume padding. Drmies (talk) 05:41, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First, there is a "Notable guests" section discussion above, thus I've added that topic here. Feel free to move this up as a subsection.
If I revert you and you revert me without discussing. we start getting into edit war. we've had a lot of that lately here.
Anyway, the section was started in part because an editor added SO MUCH negative material there needed some balance. The article is better now. Another place to mention guests would be in the programming section as a counter to the harsh criticism of past guests. In the interest of NPOV, a little bit of primary source referencing - in addition to secondary source mentions - isn't really a violation, if editors are working to make a good and fair article. Also note I've seen a couple "list" articles that actually list all the guests on TV shows, so it's not that totally out of line. CarolMooreDC 06:02, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But primary source referencing on a tenuous section in an already disputed article is a really bad idea: it sounds like we're inventing something positive, disregarding good editorial practice, in the interest of presenting a balanced article where, for all I know, balance may not even exist. Drmies (talk) 14:56, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
First, the discussion of the kind of guests who appear is relevant under programming and mention of guests who are described by secondary sources really should not be a problem. So far three editors feel a limited listing of guests with RT links is ok and thus I've been paring it down. If you put this section up with previous guest discussions, it might help.
Moving it all to being a reply to criticism would not be called for, though I may have another source to counter the early complaints about guests. CarolMooreDC 16:37, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:Undue McFaul detail additions

Re: This diff: First, this is a minor incident only notable because it got an Ambassador on the air; and not really much of a controversy or criticism. My one sentence "In early 2012 Michael McFaul, the newly appointed US ambassador to Russia, rejected Margaret Simonyan’s tweeted charge that the United States government had paid for opposition leader Alexei Navalny’s 2010 Yale World Fellows Program semester." is more than enough info for this article and the rest is WP:Undue silliness, in my opinion.

Plus, I find it rather odd that an AnonIP from Bezquez Intnl has added all that negative and even silly detail to the McFaul incident, when AnonIPs from Bezquez usually would add positive info. It was another (twice blocked) editor who always wanted to added the full quotes of the tweet exchange, so I have to wonder who is behind that edit. Does it rise to the level of asking for a sock puppet check? Or did that previous editor just forget to sign in? CarolMooreDC 16:50, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it was me Carol. BTW Simonyan did not tweet anything. I think now the story is more clear.109.67.33.28 (talk) 19:13, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
FYI, it is a violation of WP:Sock puppetry to edit with both a user name and a registered name and can result in another block for you. I would sign your name to both messages asap.
I'll check and see if I misunderstood the mode of her comment to him later since busy now; but the detail is unnecessary and WP:Undue. CarolMooreDC 19:19, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Carol I'm not Festermunk, I'm the Annoymous guy who was fighting with Festermonk a month ago109.67.33.28 (talk) 19:31, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I should have said Festermunk (but didn't want to beat a hopefully dead horse) to clarify but I forgot AnonIps also blocked. Anyway, I'm a little burned out on this right now, but my WP:Undue length of content comments stand. Will propose something else later. CarolMooreDC 19:40, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK, here's a short version that makes the story clear but removes unnecessary detail they can get at the links if they really want it. It incorporates your edifying link to Panarin article - and I leave in all your refs:
In early 2012 Shortly after his appointment as the United States Ambassador to Russia, Michael McFaul challenged Margarita Simonyan[1] over Twitter in regards to allegations from RT[2] that he sent Alexei Navalny to study at Yale.[1][2] McFaul was found to be referring to comment in an article by political scientist Igor Panarin which RT had specified were the views of the author.[3][4] Ambassador McFaul then accepted an interview by Sophie Shevardnadze on RT on this and other issues and reasserted that the Obama administration wanted a "reset" in relations with Russia.[5]
Hopefully acceptable? CarolMooreDC 00:00, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Acceptable79.180.0.84 (talk) 00:45, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reception section

The entire section looks like cheerleading for RT, especially the lede paragraph. I've have placed in a POV tag for now on the section and reported the user who has been making these changes to the ANI, although all other third-party observers are welcomed to comment on the ANI. Festermunk (talk) 17:46, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My reply here. Meanwhile, I think it can be hard to separate neutral and positive reception from criticisms (and whatever one can find that WP:RS actual call "controversies"). I actually wouldn't have a problem with calling the section "Reception and criticism." The paragraph on criticism of the criticism could go under objectivity, but it really does introduce some of the more strident criticisms. Rational good faith discussion can sort it all out. CarolMooreDC 19:50, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You've still yet to answer my questions, why did you: (i) remove content for which there was consensus and (ii) why have you not reinstated them. Simple questions, simple answers. Festermunk (talk) 22:39, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You WP:ANI was closed as a content dispute. I countered your fantasized claim that there was any consensus (except on one reliable source) at Dispute Resolution at this diff. You still retain your aggressive stance of pulling out every stop to make this an attack article instead of working with others to make it a balanced article. Why not see if any other editors chime in here? CarolMooreDC 23:30, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Don't have a clue what you are talking about, I wasn't talking about consensus for the RT section I was talking about consensus for specific points in the RT section. In any case, then by your admission via your link, I can re-add the Marcin, Heyman and Simonyan paragraph (The simonyan paragraph I'll put under the staffing section, barring further discussion on that) However, that still leaves your baffling edit for the Assange paragraph as there was consensus that the Assange program shouldn't be in the history but rather programming section.
In addition to all that, you've yet to explain why you removed all the extra sourced information I put but then added extra sourced information of your own, especially for the reception section. Why is that? Festermunk (talk) 00:57, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
n this talk page we try to get input from a number of people. This isn't just you and me and our past conversations which obviously we both can't even keep straight. If the issue is covered in a section above, why not continue the discussion there? If it's a new one, explain here or in a new section. I'll put something in Assange right now. CarolMooreDC 00:46, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What are you even talking about the the DNR on RT makes it clear that the Assange program should be in the programming section. That user's comment: "Does anyone object to putting the Assange/WorldTomorrow material in the Programming section? That seems like the best path. --Noleander (talk) 05:05, 30 October 2012 (UTC)" to which you never responded. As the DNR shows consensus on that, I suggest you move it to the programming section instead of leaving it in the history one. Festermunk (talk) 00:57, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As per WP:BRD and consensus on either the relevant sub-sections on the RT talk page or through the RT section on the DNR, I am going to restore and modify all of the aforementioned text that was achieved through consensus, but overridden through the unilateral edits by the user CarolMooreDC. Specifically, I'm going to make the following changes:

1. As per the RT section on the DNR, moving the Assange paragraph from the history section to the programming section. In particular, make note of the lines by third-party observer User:Noleander: “Okay, since the program is still on the air, let's go with the Programming section rather than History section.” and “Does anyone object to putting the Assange/WorldTomorrow material in the Programming section? That seems like the best path.”
2. As per this edit by third-party observer User:Noleander, reinstating all the the properly sourced content under the criticism and controversies section in the-then current Wikipedia version of RT. In particular, note the user’s opinion that, “Although those are valid and belong in the article…” However, as per the RT section on the DNR, a resolution over the name of the headings has yet to be decided upon, so I'm going to leave the headings as shown in the current version of the Wikipedia article as they are for now
2. As the content to be hypothetically reinstated is lengthy, please note the specific issues that were disputed and subsequently resolved:
a. The Marcin Maczka material: in particular, note this sentence by User:Noleander: “Okay, it sounds like there is agreement that Marcin can be used as a source. Any other issues on this one?”
b. NY Times article by S. Heyman: In particular, note this sentence by User:Noleander: “Sure, the negative information from NY Times can be used.”
c. Section for chief editor Margarita Simonyan: In particular, I draw the administrator’s attention to this paragraph between myself, User:Carolmooredc and User:Noleander: "FM Replies 4) Perhaps something like, "RT Staff Issues"? Non-loaded terms like "Staffing" or "Personnel" or "Organization" are most encyclopedic and neutral. Adding the word "Issues" into the section title prevents the section, for example, from doing something as simple as listing the key management personnel. --Noleander (talk) 04:14, 27 October 2012 (UTC) FM Reply 4)That could work, but only if it's under the controversies and criticism section. Putting it in such a format would strike a balance between your (a neutral heading) and my (that Simonyan's occupation and occupational background is controversial) position." Note that my suggestion has yet to be disputed. - this paragraph could go under the staffing section.[reply]

An extra note, as most of these requested changes already have consensus, if I don't receive a response to the points I'm raising then as per Wikipedia:Silence and consensus, I'm going to tentatively reinstate the changes. Festermunk (talk) 01:38, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there is consensus yet. Could you please post the proposed material here in this Talk page (or in a subpage of this Talk page) so everyone can see it? The specific issue is not so much RS but rather the WP:UNDUE policy: if too much negative material is added out of proportion to the "positive" material, that is an issue. Information, even if perfectly sourced, can be excluded from an article if it misleads the readers by giving an especially negative impression. Also, the section titles as of yesterday were very neutral and satisfactory. Can you clearly post proposed new section titles here? --Noleander (talk) 02:53, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Could you please post the proposed material here in this Talk page (or in a subpage of this Talk page) so everyone can see it? " I could but I'd prefer not to because the talk page (much less this section) would then become too unwieldy. Basically, what I said above which is content that you and I both agreed on, but for brevity's sake here they are in abridged form:
1) The Marcin and Heyman paragraphs which you, myself and even User CarolmooreDC says is a legitimate Wikipedia source.
2) Reinstating all the the properly sourced content under the criticism and controversies section in the-then current Wikipedia version of RT which you agreed to as "valid and belong in the article"
3) The paragraph on Simonyan.
Of course, we can debate other issues later, but these three seem to be the most important ones for me to address first. Festermunk (talk) 03:51, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As Noleander said, except that Marcin is WP:RS, there was no consensus among the only two editors editing at the time and a volunteer dispute resolver on WP:Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I clearly stated that in this diff], also linked above. (Do I really need to quote it here?) Plus now there are several editors getting involved and issues also should be run by then.
1) What Marcin and Heyman paragraphs where?
2) Reinstating all the WP:Undue negative criticism? That is the problem that I've been trying to correct.
3) All the Simonyan material has gone into areas more relevant to the article, except to the extent it was WP:Undue. Your preference for pushing an attack paragraph constructed to make her look really bad is a WP:NPOV and a WP:BLP violation. CarolMooreDC 04:16, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
1) It's in the DNR, I'm not going to find it for you when you can do it yourself.
2) As opposed to having the lead paragraph for the reception entirely pro-RT POV? How about I remove all that on grounds of WP:UNDUE? Actually I can't. Here's why: "The NPOV policy does forbid the inclusion of editorial bias, but does not forbid properly sourced bias." In any case, where do you get this idea that only pro-RT sources can be put into the article? I'm proposing that the content be introduced and merged alongside the pro-RT content, while you on the other hand are dedicated to removing only content that is critical of RT.
2) I should also remind you that there is already another user who has said that the content you're referring to is, "valid and belong in the article" so as of right now, the only person who is advocating that properly referenced criticism from valid sourced be removed from the article is just you.
3) No it hasn't the Simonyan material about her connections to Putin aren't in the article anywhere, and the McFaul issue she had with him is weirdly under the history section when in fact we discussed that it should be under the staffing section.
4) I forgot to put this in the original list but the Assange section is still under the history section even though DNR shows that there was consensus that it should be in the programming section. As of today, you've still yet to put the Assange program in the programming section. Festermunk (talk) 04:52, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Festermunk: You can put the proposed material in a subpage of the talk page: that way we can see it, but it won't clog up this talk page. All you have to do is create a new WP page such as Talk:RT_(TV_network)/proposedMaterial (click on the red link) and put the text there, with citations. --Noleander (talk) 05:19, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done @ Talk:RT_(TV_network)/proposedMaterial. In essence, what you said was O.K. except I changed the heading and added relevant content in the current version of the RT article and merged it into the propsed material content. Festermunk (talk) 05:57, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Noleander has a good idea. As for specific responses:

  • 2-first one)OK. Since the reception subsections are all negative material followed by responses, it seemed NPOV to have the first paragraph be some neutral or positive statements. The second paragraph is below. The first sentence obviously is relevant; I really wasn't sure where to put next two sentences which seemed to support that statement:
Journalists have noted that RT has received "considerable" criticism.[89] Glenn Greenwald wrote that RT showing the Julian Assange show led to "a predictable wave of snide, smug attacks from American media figures".[46] Mark Adomanis rebuts some of the "fevered denunciations" against RT and Julian Assange in an article in Forbes.[45]
  • 2-second one) Just be specific. What is the most important and different negative material that has been removed that you think must be in? Put that on another page per Noleander. Just wanting to re-add all those hostile opinions saying something already there once or twice or three times is what is WP:Undue and that's most of what you were adding after User:Ipsign reverted you after you returned from your first block.
  • 3) Simonyan: I thought I had put in the flowers and more than one source about her connections in the 3rd paragraph of history, but with all the cleanup and retrieval work I had to do, evidently missed it.
  • 4) I never agreed Assange belonged in programming so please stop misrepresenting me. No one else supported your cutting it out of history, in the discussion section above. That is because WP:RS worldwide covered Assange program and especially the Hezbollah leader "scoop". CarolMooreDC 05:29, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
2) "Since the reception subsections are all negative material followed by responses, it seemed NPOV to have the first paragraph be some neutral or positive statements. " What kind of logic is that?
2) As opposed to having the lead paragraph for the reception entirely pro-RT POV? How about I remove all that on grounds of WP:UNDUE? Actually I can't. Here's why: "The NPOV policy does forbid the inclusion of editorial bias, but does not forbid properly sourced bias." In any case, where do you get this idea that only pro-RT sources can be put into the article? I'm proposing that the content be introduced and merged alongside the pro-RT content, while you on the other hand are dedicated to removing only content that is critical of RT.
2) I should also remind you that there is already another user who has said that the content you're referring to is, "valid and belong in the article" so as of right now, the only person who is advocating that properly referenced criticism from valid sourced be removed from the article is just you.
3) But it doesn't go in the history, it should go in a section called 'RT Staff' or 'Staff' as we discussed at DNR.
4) Doesn't mattered whether you agreed or not because we've already discussed this at DNR. I can't help you if you think "noe on else supported your cutting it out of history" when Nolelander clearly says that he thinks the the Assange section should be in the programming section as he says at the DNR. If you don't move it to that section, I will. Festermunk (talk) 05:53, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Festermunk: Your tone is becoming very belligerent again. Please be calm and respectful, otherwise you will get reported for Edit Warring again. My statements made in the DRN case were made based on the prior outline of the article. The new outline is much improved, and that change impacts the assessments I made beforehand. Regarding Assange: I made it clear in the DRN case that either location was fine - it is not a big deal. The article has many more important areas that need improvement. --Noleander (talk) 06:00, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am calm and respectful, where do you get the idea that I'm not? I understand that in the DRN you said basically that it was a coin-toss, but when I pressed you further on it you said that it should be in the programming section as the program is still on air, in fact you even said that it was the best path if the program was put in the programming section. Your exact wording: "Does anyone object to putting the Assange/WorldTomorrow material in the Programming section? That seems like the best path. --Noleander (talk) 05:05, 30 October 2012 (UTC)" Festermunk (talk) 06:09, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The concern about your behavior stems from your 3 recent reverts (immediately after returning from a 1 week block) plus comments like "If you don't move it to that section, I will." Regarding Assange: I still consider it a coin toss, and we really need to be focusing on the quality of the article and the overall balance. Insisting on moving a paragraph from one section to another equally good section is not a good use of time. --Noleander (talk) 06:27, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have an idea why you keep going on about my "behavior" I am calm and respectful. I understand we need to be focusing on improving the balance of the article...which is why we're dealing with the Assange program issue. It's unclear how you say that you still consider it a coin toss when you wrote this in the DRN ( Your exact wording: "Does anyone object to putting the Assange/WorldTomorrow material in the Programming section? That seems like the best path. --Noleander (talk) 05:05, 30 October 2012 (UTC)"). You say that it's because of the change in outline, but that is confusing as the outline for the article is still the same as it was when we initiated the DNR. Perhaps you can elaborate further.

2) If you want to be logical, please reply to what editors actually wrote. AGAIN: Re first sentence of Reception lead, Positive comments do NOT just come as a reaction to negative ones. That is the simple logic. Or we could just make a separate section on positive comments then? Obviously sentence about their being criticism is relevant; where to put two replies is up for discussion. As for the rest, the DNR is old history now, and it was just you and me - and a volunteer dispute resolver who has now decided to become an editor of this page. There are other editors here though I can certainly understand why with your aggressive and hostile attitude they might want to avoid interacting with you. That is the way you disrupt collaboration on a page. CarolMooreDC 17:59, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed material page

In addition to this, I would also like to remind you that I'm still waiting for your feedback on the changes I've made at Talk:RT_(TV_network)/proposedMaterial. Festermunk (talk) 14:19, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Could you update that talk subpage and indicate what parts you are proposing to add. It is a bit confusing: some of the text is boldface ... is that all you want to add? Other paragraphs (not bold) are already in the the article. Note that starting a paragraph with a few bold faced words (as in Libya) is discouraged by the WP manual of style. --Noleander (talk) 14:38, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"some of the text is boldface ... is that all you want to add?" That's right so for brevity's sake I won't indicate what parts I'm going to add. Somehow when I wrote that what I would merge the relevant content in the current version into the proposed version of the reception section would be bolded, it didn't come up on Wikipedia, so the confusion was probably due to a technical error? In any case, yes the boldface text is what I want. As for your concern about the bold faced words, that's just a stylistic issue I'll change that when we reach a consensus on the content. Festermunk (talk) 15:26, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
An addendum to my last post: "Other paragraphs (not bold) are already in the the article." Alright, I see what you mean, the bolded paragraphs denote the paragraphs that I would merge from other sections of the paragraph. In that case, I'll put in italics the information I'd like to see added in. Festermunk (talk) 15:31, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • As you will see some of the things you are complaining about WERE taken from your version and put in current version of article. Did you ever read it? Also criticisms should be in somewhat dated order since first couple years it was more amateurish and had more questionable guests than more recently. I do have one ref to that effect haven't put in yet; and I'm sure I've seen others I'll keep eyes open for.
  • A separate section for RT Staff...this was agreed upon in DRN. Untrue. You don't want to hear what others say
  • Margarita Simonyan - she acknowledged that she once received flowers on her birthday from Mr. Putin.[6] I already said YES. Everything else is redundant or trivial.
  • Peter Lavelle - September 11 attacks. Trivial example as part of your attack article mindset
  • "peddling the softer side" of former Soviet Dictator Joseph Stalin, - there is one negative opinion I believe, if there were two, a third more neutral one would have to be added for balance, and I have one. Is it worth all those sentences?
  • Later critical opinions on RT have included:" First separate propaganda and anti-American criticisms are already in separate paragraphs. What do each of these add that is NOT already in there? Putting in every single quote you can find that is some shade of the same criticism is just WP:Undue POV attack behavior.
  • Marcin Mączka writes' etc. Most of that in there now. Adding more becomes WP:Undue
  • , the "brainchild of former Information Minister Mikhail Lesin and Putin's press spokesman, Aleksei Gromov" Is in there now. Have you bothered to read the newest version?? Rest is repetition of points already in there. If you think any sentence makes a BETTER case than one in there already on the topic AND comes from a more reliable news source, instead of just some opinionator spewing distain, replace it.
  • quoted journailst Ed Lucas as saying that the core of RT was, "anti-Westernism."[29] Isn't there a paragraph already on that? I don't have a problem with adding it since it's funny to see someone on Al Jazeera saying that.
  • Alyona Show could use mentioning; rest is just piling on WP:Undue
  • Evgeny Morozov pointing out Point already made...just piling on WP:Undue

So that's my view, as I've stated repeatedly. CarolMooreDC 18:24, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • A separate section for RT Staff...this was agreed upon in DRN. Untrue. You don't want to hear what others say
Then prove that I am wrong.
  • Margarita Simonyan - she acknowledged that she once received flowers on her birthday from Mr. Putin.[6] I already said YES. Everything else is redundant or trivial.
But it's not in the right section, it should be under the staff section as we discussed on DRN. Also, you're missing the extra citations that further document her closeness to the Kremlin. This edit by User Nolelander: The Staffing section should certainly contain a paragraph on the chief editor. Right now, there is no section called, 'Staff' and the paragraph on Simonyan isn't in there.
  • Peter Lavelle - September 11 attacks. Trivial example as part of your attack article mindset
Like your edit here quoting a statement by Tracy Quan, that "RT is a far more interesting network than some care to admit" in the lead paragraph of the reception section?
  • "peddling the softer side" of former Soviet Dictator Joseph Stalin, - there is one negative opinion I believe, if there were two, a third more neutral one would have to be added for balance, and I have one. Is it worth all those sentences?
Like your edit here quoting a statement by Tracy Quan, that "RT is a far more interesting network than some care to admit" in the lead paragraph of the reception section?
  • Later critical opinions on RT have included:" First separate propaganda and anti-American criticisms are already in separate paragraphs. What do each of these add that is NOT already in there? Putting in every single quote you can find that is some shade of the same criticism is just WP:Undue POV attack behavior.
Because they aren't in there. Where are they?
"Putting in every single quote you can..." Like your edit here quoting a statement by Tracy Quan, that "RT is a far more interesting network than some care to admit"?
  • Marcin Mączka writes' etc. Most of that in there now. Adding more becomes WP:Undue
The original paragraph ("it is usually related to the progress of Russia’s “modernisation”, economic achievements and the growth of foreign investment" and, "embarrassing information about Russia is usually omitted and RT never broadcasts programmes showing Russia’s social problems, condemning corruption or administrative incompetence."), which was said to be O.K. on the DNR. Also, it's not in the receptions (then criticisms and controversies) section where we decided on the DRN where it could be
  • , the "brainchild of former Information Minister Mikhail Lesin and Putin's press spokesman, Aleksei Gromov" Is in there now. Have you bothered to read the newest version?? Rest is repetition of points already in there. If you think any sentence makes a BETTER case than one in there already on the topic AND comes from a more reliable news source, instead of just some opinionator spewing distain, replace it.
But it's not in the reception section.
  • quoted journailst Ed Lucas as saying that the core of RT was, "anti-Westernism."[29] Isn't there a paragraph already on that? I don't have a problem with adding it since it's funny to see someone on Al Jazeera saying that.
  • Alyona Show could use mentioning; rest is just piling on WP:Undue
"rest is just piling on WP:Undue" Like your edit here quoting a statement by Tracy Quan, that "RT is a far more interesting network than some care to admit" in the lead paragraph of the reception section?
  • Evgeny Morozov pointing out Point already made...just piling on WP:Undue

Like your edit here quoting a statement by Tracy Quan, that "RT is a far more interesting network than some care to admit" in the lead paragraph of the reception section? Festermunk (talk) 19:34, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at the updated subpage of this talk page, which contains the material you want to add. It appears to be 100% negative. That is a red flag. It suggests that you cherry-picked information from the sources, and are rejecting all neutral/positive information. The article, under no circumstances, can be 90% negative and 10% neutral/positive, which is what your proposal would achieve. Can you review the sources and see if there is any neutral/positive information? I've already found a few neutral/positive facts from your sources that are not yet in the article. The WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV policies require that the article reflect the rough balance of material that is out in the sources. --Noleander (talk) 03:12, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Remaining issues?

A couple of us had had enough as of yesterday and independently took Festermunk to ANI and 3rrn. So he's indefinitely blocked for edit warring and I DIDN'T HEAR IT... He had a few points that were worth discussing and I tried to discuss them above but he preferred to ignore my attempts to collaborate. So just to be collaborative, below are the things people should comment on if they are problematic or need tweaking:

  • Second paragraph of reception section mentions a lot of criticism and then has two sentences inferring too much. Probably could go lower down somewhere but I haven't had energy to deal with yet with all the back and forth; will do sooner rather than later.
  • Margarita Simonyan - she acknowledged that she once received flowers on her birthday from Mr. Putin.[6] Our AnonIP put in fuller info in her article saying it was something spontaneous he did on hearing it was her birthday. Worth putting in?? Interesting but not critical.
  • "peddling the softer side" of former Soviet Dictator Joseph Stalin, - I did see one less negative/rather humerous comment on it, in addition to this one, so both would have to be mentioned. Is it worth mentioning at all?
  • quoted journailst Ed Lucas as saying that the core of RT was, "anti-Westernism."[29] I guess Festermunk put it in. (Yesterday's other Festermunk WP:Undue I'm taking out unless someone beat me to it.) I see a couple existing refs to "anti-Western/American". Leave it in?
  • Alyona Show could use more mentioning since a couple sources say it was RT's most popular and/or well thought of show; his quote was just piling on more negativity.
So that's my thoughts for now. CarolMooreDC 14:13, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Absurd description of VOA

From the Reception>Objectivity section : "After the 2005 announcement the station would be launched, the U.S. government-sponsored VOA[86]". really? just sponsored? sponsored is a nice whitewash for the word funded. but it is not just funded . it is owned by the US government :

"The IBB supports the day-to-day operations of Voice of America" "The position of IBB Director is appointed by the president of the United States, with Senate confirmation" International Broadcasting Bureau

The IBB is part of the Broadcasting Board of Governors, guess who is a member of the board of governors ? Hillary Rodham Clinton the 67th United States Secretary of State. http://www.bbg.gov/about-the-agency/ Should be - "the U.S. government-owned/controlled VOA" 109.67.33.28 (talk) 19:13, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Festermunk: I could not find that info on the source page so put what I did find. Feel free to correct it. A long derisive post is not necessary to correct a simple error. CarolMooreDC 19:24, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not Festermonk. I'm the guy who put in the Glen Greenwald original quotes.109.67.33.28 (talk) 19:34, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Corrected my error. Obviously another reason to get a handle. Feel free to correct with the proper reference, whatever it might be. CarolMooreDC 19:42, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Subsections in History

I added subsections to the History section and spread it out slightly, as it was very cramped and very long. I am not 100% sure about the subsection titles, any suggestions of better names would be welcome.Hentheden (talk) 22:11, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can see it needed to be divided a bit, though I think that's too many.
  • It could be done like BBC is done by year, say: 2005-2007; 2008-2011; and 2012 (adding "to present" on January 1 2013).
  • Or it could be done topically and yearly: Foundation (1st three paragraphs); Growth (next six paragraphs); and then 2012 (adding "to present" on January 1 2013). I have a slight preference for latter myself. Meanwhile tweaked it a bit and moved awards paragraph to that section. CarolMooreDC 00:22, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Travelodge

How did Russia Today manage to get shown on almost all UK Travelodge TVs in the early part of the 21st century, even sometimes to the exclusion of nationally-local BBC News 24 which was also available on the "freeview" setup that the Travelodge TV setup was using? Was it part of a global Travelodge/RT deal? I think I've briefly seen an explanation for this in reliable sources somewhere, but it needs to be fleshed out properly and mentioned in the article. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:32, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quotes from Margarita Simonyan

Two quotes from RT Editor-in-Chief Margarita Simonyan, but im not sure where to add them  : "Simonyan said it was good that countries like Russia are spending money to make their voices heard "after so many years in which the international media scene was reduced to the points of view of Anglo-Saxon countries. For five years, I have been watching BBC and CNN news every day — they have almost exactly the same topics, the same wording, the same order. And for so many years they were the only international TV news sources. … It’s great that there is a channel with a different view, different experts and a different order."

"In regards to Western media criticism of RT's "Coverage of conspiracy theories" Margarita Simonyan, the channel's editor-in-chief argued that the channel’s policy was merely to provide a platform for marginalized points of view that otherwise got little coverage, like the Sept. 11 conspiracy theorists. "I personally do not believe them. But I believe that if there are people out there who think so but do not get into mainstream media, they deserve an audience — and we should give them a forum,”. Simonyan noted that viewer resonance and audience numbers confirmed that the policy is right. She also added that giving airtime to “truthers” was morally comparable to Western media coverage of the 1999 apartment bombings in Moscow and two other cities that killed 293 people. "What about Western media reports saying that Vladimir Putin was behind the bombings?".http://rbth.ru/articles/2010/03/23/230310_rt.html79.180.0.84 (talk) 00:31, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I already put in short version on apartment bombings. The other is one of a number of good ones she's said on that and similar topics. What's already in there already on the same topic? Is this one shorter and punchier? ("Sound bites!") I have a whole list of them myself I was waiting to look at later to see if they were needed to fill in any obvious holes to balance the article. CarolMooreDC 00:41, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Scrap

...this sentence from the lead: "RT, according to its corporate profile, "covers the major issues of our time for viewers wishing to question more."" What they do (or don't do) according to their corporate profile is not of any relevance to us or the reader, and the sentence contains only corporate fluff. Right now it's the first sentence of the second paragraph; as it happens, the second sentence works just as well, even better, to open that paragraph, describing that the network does. Not that I want to get involved with this article, of course. Drmies (talk) 02:59, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it is their slogan and several WP:RS talk about it, but I lazily left it as is. (It runs ads with the slogan several times a day.) Will put on my list to properly place and ref. CarolMooreDC 04:06, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Or just remove it as unnecessary, since it is. Drmies (talk) 15:39, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It could go as well in History or elsewhere depending on how WP:RS frame it. I'm just staying away from lead while it's reverted. CarolMooreDC 17:47, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Carol, this has nothing whatsoever to do with reliable sources. Not everything that is reliably sourced goes in an article. We don't do mission statements, for instance, or visions, or programs, even if they are reliably sourced on the main page of the outfit's website. It's a matter of editorial decision: this is not what good articles anywhere, in the lead or otherwise, unless it is proven to be of special interest (I assume Fox's "Fair and Balanced" is well-written about). I'm going to go ahead and remove it; it can only improve the article. Drmies (talk) 17:58, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

AnonIp editwarring again

Hey, Mr. Bezeq International, you can NOT revert other's material more than 3 times in 24 hours. Please read and study WP:3rr. Adding new material is ok if it doesn't delete other existing material. If you remember a few weeks back the article was protected so AnonIPs couldn't edit at all and that will happen again if 3rr violations continue. So please a) stop doing it and b) consider getting a registered user name so we don't get confused and have to keep checking if it's you or some other AnonIp. Thanks! CarolMooreDC 04:27, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Carol what do you think of the new lead ? doesn't it sum up everything in a straightforward, respectful and Non POV way ?79.182.22.161 (talk) 04:55, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Carol I"m truly sorry, but , as usual Festermunk is abusing the revert function to block anything that even smells neutral and not negative .
I have no choice but to revert him back. I"m not even assuming, I'm declaring zero good faith by Festermunk. All this mess is happening ONLY with him.79.182.22.161 (talk) 05:17, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I get dizzy with the back and forth I really would need more parties to opine at this point to have an opinion besides keep it like it was. CarolMooreDC 05:25, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK, AnonIp, I did edit warring complaint vs. Festermunk where refer'd to you, but not official complaint since I didn't have energy to add up the diffs; and last time they dealt with the problem without them. So again consider registering and counting your reverts. Thanks. CarolMooreDC 20:44, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would just like to say that I personally agree with you CarolMooreDC and I think the current intro sums up everything in a very nice non-POV way. "I don't understand why you're reverting this when there's already consensus for it, why don't you discuss this on talk?" is complete rubbish Festermunk and what's more you know it. And thanks for cleaning up the History subsections and minor awards CarolMooreDC, it looks much tidier now. Hentheden (talk) 23:52, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Festermunk has been blocked indefinitely now and Admin said unlikely any appeal will work. So hopefully our Anon IP can now be on his/her best behavior :-) We can revert any problematic edits of last 24-36 hours. And I think I will now archive all the long disputes centered around him so we can just look at the ones that more collaborative editors might want to continue to discuss. I'm quite exhausted tonight myself by all this. CarolMooreDC 00:49, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I hope you can keep your anons straight. Good luck with it! Drmies (talk) 05:37, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank heavens for Geolocate :-) CarolMooreDC 13:51, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

ANO TV-Novosti general director quote

The following paragraph was in Reception>Objectivity section : ANO TV-Novosti (RT TV's parent Organization) General director (CEO) Mr. Sergey Frolov has stated "Our responsibility is not to be someone's lawyer or prosecutor. It is too stupid to hold information, because then you have to repeat it from others. We do our best to respond swiftly and impartially. Present the facts and not speculate or theorize. Actually, the problem is very simple: If we start to filter news or silent something - people will switch to CNN or BBC."http://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.broadcasting.ru/newstext.php%3Fnews_id%3D25223/

Carolmooredc has reverted this On the grounds that "remove Novosti leader quote since not clear he's talking about RT and not other branches".

I think you made a mistake, and confusing RIA-Novosti headed by Svetlana Mironyuk with ANO TV-Novosti (Which ownes only RT Network) Headed by Sergey Frolov. The cited source Interview is all and only about RT TV.109.65.25.151 (talk) 15:53, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the source makes it clear the discussion is about RT-TV. I've restored the material. However, it probably should be cleaned-up, and perhaps moved to another section? --Noleander (talk) 16:28, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, think I was starting to get a little burned out. CarolMooreDC 20:52, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Firing of all RT America Reporters

Anyone have information on the mass firing of most or all of the RT Reporters employed a month ago? This seems to correspond to a sudden shift in RT Focus. Press TV seems to have undergone a similar purge. This coup is very mysterious. I am trying to track down RT Reporters and ask them what happened. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.162.4.7 (talk) 15:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

FYI this is their on air talent page which they update from time to time.
Obviously we need reliable sources not original research. Given all the antagonism towards RT, one would think there would be such stories by now. Of course western media fire reporters too when its politically necessary, like right before Iraq war or anyone who criticizes Israel (though even that's gotten a bit more permissible lately under Obama). So we shall see... CarolMooreDC 21:18, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I see Lauren Lyster already is working for Yahoo Finance so working for RT is not the kiss of death. CarolMooreDC 22:19, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Controversies_and_criticisms_of_RT

I noticed that there is another name of the article Controversies_and_criticisms_of_RT. If someone finds its appropriate, then a separate article with the name should be created. Now it is misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.0.101.218 (talk) 13:10, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See Reception section which we agreed should have that info, per policy. See above. CarolMooreDC 19:49, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Obejctivity and Bias

Can we include a para about how anti-EU RT is - and how anti non-white/immigration it appears to be too. I just noticed it was officially endorsed by British National Party leader Nick Griffin as 'the only real news channel!' i.e the only one that actually gives his party significant airtime.

What about including the fact that RT have a strong web presence especially on YouTube — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oxr033 (talk • contribs) 15:22, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Viewing figures in lead

"Viewers" is defined as "Someone who has tuned in a minimum of one time". I think it's misleading to lump regular views and one-time viewers as 'viewers' because it implies they all watch it when that might not be true. I can't find any neutral sources for the '2 million in the UK' statistic, other than from RT (which has a dead link), apparently RT claims it 'doesn't release figures' or something to that extent. Any ideas? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oxr033 (talk • contribs) 15:47, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the note. I don't know why sites change all their links so unnecessarily! Probably others are bad too; I did change some a couple weeks ago.
I updated those two but don't have time to verify everything each use says right now. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 16:18, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why long Russian name in info box?

Per this diff, putting that long ANO "TV-Novosti" (АНО "ТВ-Новости") in the info box title is totally WP:Undue; putting it in the description isn't really necessary; it belongs in the lead. This is English wikipedia. Why is User:TarzanASG insisting on putting Russian names in those two places?? CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie 01:32, 7 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's usual practice, but in the lead, not in the info box if it's real long and likely to confuse people. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 00:55, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Basically that's in there because WP:RS call it a propaganda source. If one objects, the best thing to do is find a couple WP:RS calling the BBC, NPR, and other govt sponsored/supported TV stations elsewhere propaganda, put them in those article and then add the category. That's what I'd do if had the time and energy :-) CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie 18:55, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction and notable guests

Hi, I just wanted to leave a note here after I saw the page history, in case anyone wants to discuss this. There was previously a list in the introduction of what looked like every important person ever to appear on the channel. I trimmed all but a few (the ones not citing YouTube) and used one of the other existing sources to note the "propaganda" claims. There should probably be a more balanced layout, but at least it looks better for now. Aiwen Zhang (talk) 22:52, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Totally negative POV driven. reverted79.176.189.89 (talk) 21:47, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ a b Hirst, Tomas (01/03/12). "Putin's Perverse Fear of Soft Power". Huffington Post. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  2. ^ a b Toohey, Nathan (08/02/2012). "RT and McFaul argue over Navalny's US education". The Moscow Times. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  3. ^ http://rt.com/politics/mcfaul-opposition-rallies-panarin-667/
  4. ^ http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/09-02-2012/120456-michael_mcfaul_ambassador-0/
  5. ^
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