Talk:Hapa

Hapa: An insult (in some places)?

Is Hapa a pejoritive or deragatory term? It is not stated. I beleive many Eurasians consider it a deragatory term when applied to them. Perhaps Hawaiians do not? Perhaps splitting the article into the word as used in Hawaii and the word as used elsewhere. This would seem to address many of the issues. Hawaiians do a lot of things differently, it is still a very seperate culture from anywhere else.

--There is not a negative associated with the word hapa in Hawaii. There are some who feel that the word should only be used to describe part ethnic Hawaiians, but as a Hapa-pake family (part ha'ole, part Chinese), living on O'ahu and the Big Island, no one ever responds negatively when we identify as hapa. There is some prejudice among darker skin colored Hawaiians (more Hawaiian genes) to lighter skinned Hawaiians, specially among teenagers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patfromlogan (talk • contribs) 19:08, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Hapa the band

Hi all,

Who would like to add a page for Hapa the band, and a disambiguation link (like the one at the top of this page) to the page? Godfrey Daniel 22:25, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I second that.. Dont know much about them jholdaway 23:22, 06 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.182.187 (talk)

How does someone correct a false definition and inaccurate article content/

(Moved from Reference Desk)

Dear Wikipedia Administrators and Editors,

It is with great dismay and sadness that when I looked up the definition of the Hawaiian word Hapa, I found that it was not defined truthfully. Please advise. I would like to know how one can be sure that the true meaning and definition of a word will be present on an article site that has redefined a word as a usage. I tried a few times to edit the article "Hapa" to present all the facts and the true meaning of this Hawaiian word, but someone kept puting the incorrect definiton back before I could finish. (PikiPik and Pez?)

Hapa is a Hawaiian (kanaka maoli) word of Hawaiian (ethnicity, blood ancestry) origin. Hapa began as a word by Hawaiians (like my great grandmother) for Hawaiians of part Hawaiian ancestry. Hawaiian dictionaries define "hapa" as "part, fragment., portion" or "an indefinite part of a thing, a few, a small part". Later it was further defined to include "of mixed blood, person of mixed blood". Hapa does not mean "part or partial Asian".

To take a word which is a part of an indigenous language and then redefine it as a word used for part-Japanese people who came from Hawai'i and then further redefine it as "people of part Asian and European ancestry" is ethnocultural theft. At the very least, the article site on wikipedia that defines and explains the word "hapa" should give credit where credit is due-to the Hawaiian (kanaka maoli) people of Hawai'i. The word hapa was in use long before any of the foreign Asian and Portuguese immigrants came to Hawai'i. Hawaiians and (the first foreigners) Europeans (like my grandfather) created the first hapa people of Hawai'i. An example is Princess Victoria Ka'iulani Cleghorn. Later, Hawaiians intermarried with the Chinese (like my great grandfather) who were the first non-European immigrants to Hawai'i. This then created many people of Hawaiian, European and Chinese ancestry. Hapa is a Hawaiian word, it is not a "Hawai'i Creole" or Hawai'i Pidgin English" word.

How can anyone just take a word that has original meaning, definition and usage of a native peoples and just redefine it to suit someone and something else? Why has no one looked up the word in the dictionaries that would be the authority as to the definiton of a Hawaiian word? People of Hawaiian language authority. Please look in the dictionaries of Hawaiian language. It is a terrible thing to present something wrong and false as being the "truth".

By the way, I am Hawai'i born and raised, and am hapa because I am part Hawaiian- I am of mixed ethnic/racial ancestry-Hawaiian, Chinese, French, Welsh, Dutch, Irish, Scottish, Mohawk, Prussian, Austrian, English and Seneca. Two of my nephews are all of this and part Japanese and Okinawan too; they are hapa. Please make sure the truth is presented. Please do not allow someone to put forth a false definition. It is hurtful to those of us who are hapa and grew up with this word as a part of our heritage. People of Hawaiian ancestry have always been known to share and give in a most generous way, easily mixing and intermarrying with all ethnicities and races, and the word hapa can evolve to include anyone of mixed ethnic and racial ancestry, but please do not state that the definition of hapa is part Asian mixed ancestry. It is defined as "part, partial or fragment; one of mixed blood". Kelly Hu is hapa. Kelly Preston is hapa. Keanu Reeeves is hapa, and so forth. I have seen many sites on the web where the defition of hapa has been redefined. Please do not be such a site, be fair and just. (This was posted on the Reference Desk by User:Ilikea)

OK, so, in summary, you dispute:

• The origin of hapa — Hawai‘ian rather than pidgin.
• Usage of hapa — any mixed race, not just Asian.

On the first point, I think you need to discuss your sources for your beliefs on the etymology of the word with your co-contributors. I see that the talk page for the article is blank. It is best to talk to people there before resorting to consulting the entire community.

On the second point, I see that the article does not say hapa means part-Asian. It just says they more often than not are. Isn't this true? Again, it is best to talk about this on the article's talk page.

I also see the article is very badly named. Hapa seems to have been moved to HAPA-Mainland U.S.A. redefinition of Hawaiian word, which is not in line with Wikipedia naming conventions. I am going to move it back to Hapa.

Finally, welcome to Wikipedia — I hope you will become a regular and valuable contributor. Please make sure you sign your comments by putting ~~~~ after them. It would also be handy if you could divide them up into paragraphs for legibility (I had to do that for you.) Thanks. — Chameleon Main/Talk/Images 05:27, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia where redefinition is rampant and a struggle to maintain historical consistency is difficult. My best wishes from a veteran wikipedian.WHEELER 15:02, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

---

I am one of the originators of this article.

First, allow me to address some of the concerns User:Ilikea raised. For one thing, although I am a bit chagrined to be accused of "ethnocultural theft" (is there a wiki for that? heh) when my contribution is patently devoid of malicious intent, I understand your principled disagreement with the way I and other contributors have defined the word "hapa" in this article.

For one thing, when a word is borrowed into a first language from a second language, contemporary linguistics regards the word, when used in the first language, as a valid part of the first language. As such, a statement such as "Hapa is a Hawaiian word, it is not a 'Hawai'i Creole' or 'Hawai'i Pidgin English' word," is not appropriate because the word "hapa" has been borrowed into English. When used as a loanword in English, "hapa" may have a different meaning than the meaning associated with the word used in the Hawaiian language.

One argument espoused is that it is either morally or at least technically wrong to use a loanword in a manner varying from the meaning given the loanword in the language from which it is borrowed. I respectfully disagree. Many loanwords to English have acquired significant difference in meaning from the original--this process of semantic shift is not of itself either bad or good, but simply a reality of linguistics.

Moreover, regional variation of meaning also varies widely--such appears to be the case with the word "hapa," for example. I readily admit ignorance of the usage of the term "hapa" used in English or Pidgin in Hawaii; however, I am certain that in the eastern United States at least, the term "hapa" is used to broadly denote persons of mixed Asian ancestry. This fact (like all facts) is neither bad nor good--it simply is, and as a fact, this definition of "hapa" is valid in an encyclopedic entry.

Rather than despair at the reality of semantic shift, I invite you, Ilikea, to add your understanding of the term "hapa" to this entry; however, I feel the other definition(s) should not be deleted, as they are equally valid in the regions in which they are used.

Finally, although I should not indulge in this type of discussion here, I would be wary of presenting any definition or understanding of fact as the sole legitimate "truth" (as intimated in the statement "Please make sure the truth is presented. Please do not allow someone to put forth a false definition"), with any other understanding a "false definition." Reality tends to be an amalgamation of "truths," with few universal, absolute definitions or understandings. --Ryanaxp 21:35, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)

Edited some of the more inaccurate parts of the article.FreddyPickle (talk) 21:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Aloha Ryanaxp

Much appreciation for you response. Anything and everything Hawaiian (ethnically and culturally) can be a touchy subject. Here in Hawaii it is understood that hapa has to do with those of mixed Hawaiian blood. However, we also use this word to describe people of mixed or part Asian ancestry. We also use the term "chop suey" for those who are mixed, but usually more than two different racial or ethnic backgrounds. I put links on the site that would give other perspectives on the usage and meaning of the word. One in particular is the website called "The Real Hapas". I thought it would give the perspective of those people of Hawaiian ancestry who view the word "hapa" as a cultural word. I use the word for all mixes of people who are either part Asian or part Pacific Islander or both and any other racial/ethnic ancestry. I apologize for the anger and strength of my words above. As someone of part Hawaiian ancestry, I have seen the decline of the Hawaiian people and the passage of many of my full-blooded ancestors. What I hope to achieve by contributing to the "Hapa" article is showing the origins, usage and development of a Hawaiian word that has come to encompass more that what it originally meant. Most people of Hawaiian ancestry are part Asian and part Caucasian. I was upset (not with the originators of this article)with the misunderstanding outside of Hawaii about things Hawaiian or local culture Hawaii.

Sincerely, Ilikea 22:48, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)Ilikea

Unwarranted (IMO) Deletions Reversed

Recently user:Zora deleted several large sections from this article, describing them as "inaccurate." Because this reason was not clearly elucidated, and because no discussion was made on this talk page prior to the deletion, I reinstated some of the deleted material and performed some editing of my own.

The focus of my editing was to increase brevity and move toward NPOV (per my interpretation of NPOV). I agree with Zora that the list of Hapas is extraneous, and perhaps more than a little tacky--thus I left it out.

Otherwise, I see no good reason to delete the material relating to the origins of the word Hapa, nor to delete the material discussing alternate usage in comparison to Hawaiian usage, etc. Also, there seems no good reason to remove the list of external links (which I have found useful).

To user:Zora, if you disagree with the article as written, please discuss the changes you propose to make here in the talk page. Certainly, deleting entire sections of the article would be something to discuss with co-contributors prior to carrying out the deletion. Thank you for your contributions. --Ryanaxp 16:12, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC)

---

OK, I was tired and angry last night, after spending hours to drop all references to Huna as 'the Hawaiian religion', and to kanaka maoli as an accepted term for ethnic Hawaiian.

Adding the para about the use of hapa on the mainland seems warranted, if that's indeed the way hapa is used. I'm ONLY familiar with the usage in Hawai'i; I've never heard or seen anyone who isn't a Hawaiian resident use the word. But if it's actually current in some circles ...

But all references to kanaka maoli are needlessly inflammatory. It is NOT an accepted term. It means 'true human' and is used by UH Manoa/Haunani Trask/Ka Lahui/Hawaiian separatists/dem. The UH Hilo Hawaiian program uses kanaka 'oiwi or po'e 'oiwi, which simply means native people, and is much less offensive to non-ethnic-Hawaiians.

The restored para re the history of hapa is confusing and an unnecessary rehash of Hawai'i immigration history.

References to Princess Kaiulani as one of the first hapa are simply risible. There have been hapas since 1778 and the first wave of Hawaiian women over the gunwales of Cook's ships -- if not earlier, since there are Hawaiian traditions of earlier visits. There have been CHIEFLY hapas since Kamehameha's time, when his haole advisors married into the Big Island nobility, and hapas of extreme visibility since Queen Emma. You didn't restore that in the text, but you did restore Kaiulani in the links, and I think that's unnecessary.

I'm tempted to cut out everything but the para re mainland usage again, but given that I'm probably still cranky, I'll leave it sit for a day.

Zora 19:46, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

---

Zora, Thanks for providing your insight regarding those issues. To be candid, I am utterly ignorant of the Hawaiian language, and nearly as ignorant of Hawaiian cultural and political history.

Accordingly, thank you for bringing these issues to light, and your editing in that regard is certainly welcome on my part. I brought back the paragraph regarding the history of Hapas mostly out of concern that this information (presumed valid by me, being ignorant of evidence to the contrary) would be lost to wikipedia. Perhaps only a portion relevent to the history of the *word* "hapa" would be appropriate?

As for my not bringing back text mentioning chiefly hapas, etc., I again plead ignorance--this was not done with an intention of bias. Please edit as appropriate, with your knowledge in this area.

Another contributor added certain impassioned portions of text which I feel skirt the edge of NPOV; I have edited those with an eye to not offend the contributor, while maintaining NPOV as much as I can.

--Ryanaxp 20:12, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC)

---

Ryan,

As regards the history of the term hapa -- it seems clear that it diffused from Hawaiian into Hawaiian pidgin and thence onto the U.S. mainland, but HOW AND WHEN is not clear. I'm not aware that there are any real linguistic studies of its history, with dated citations. In the absence of such a study, it seems to me that it would be best to be fairly vague about the history, skirting the abysses. If we want Wikipedia to be an authority, we have to be cautious.

But I'm open to conviction otherwise, especially if there have been real linguistic studies. I'm not up on pidgin scholarship, so I could be very wrong.

Zora 00:29, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Edit wars

It seems that Ilikea is determined to restore most of the verbiage that I trimmed. I deleted it again. I really hate playing edit war. Ilikea, since I believe we're both Honolulu, or at least O'ahu residents, perhaps we could handle some of this privately? Email lofstrom@lava.net.

Zora 03:57, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Reverting article

Someone with a strong POV (only part-Hawaiians can be hapa) edited the article to reflect that POV.

That claim was already represented in the article as it stood, so there was no good reason to edit out all other POVs.

I also have strong feelings about certain words, and certain Hawaiian words. Frex, I say mu'umu'u rather than muumuu -- using the 'okina -- and I never use the word 'okole as it's used in pidgin, since I'm sensitive to the original Hawaiian meaning. But I'm not going to use Wikipedia as a platform to denounce people who speak differently than I do. All I can do is hope that my example catches on.

I think the cleanup notice was posted in response to the rather incoherent replacement article posted by the anonymous contributor. Since I'm not sure, I'll leave it up for a day. Any comment from anyone else on the need for cleanup? Zora 21:59, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Another anon IP, another reversion

An anon editor cut the article down drastically and introduced some grammatical errors as well. I've reverted, but ... if the anon editor wants to take a username and come here to the talk page to discuss things, I'm sure we can work something out. Zora 04:10, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

hapa + "ethnicity"

Zora,

I took out some things I felt was unnecessary, including the "chop suey" part since it seems to be slang, which means I don't see/hear the younger generation using this term at all. Only used by those of my generation and older. And I also see it used differently compared to "hapa", in the sense that "chop suey" is referred to a person when mentioning their mixed ethnicities usually more than 2, versus taking a term like "Hapa" almost as if it's an ethnicity. What I mean is that people are willing to say that they are "Hapa" versus saying that they are "Chop Suey" which is NOT how we used it back in my time growing up.

You can be the police grammar all you want, I have no problems with that. Because I took out a lot of that old info. I only made it worse by trying to substitute it with other things.

However I'd feel much more comfortable knowing that the compounds were taken out. Only last night after having a friend point it out to me that these following pages took it from this Wikipedia page.

http://www.informationblast.com/Hapa.html http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Hapa http://www.grokpedia.com/en/h/ha/Hapa.htm http://www.masterliness.com/a/Hapas.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/encyclopedia/hapa

Wikipedia (I couldn't figure out who started it) got these compounds from http://hapas.com website of whom the webmaster/owner Alvin asked me what were the uses of "Hapa" in relation to the ethnicities of the islands since I'd bring it up all the time. Because I was so lazy in capitalizing the ethnicities, I left them in lower case, all of which has been copied over & over from one page to another. They have been copied as I gave it to Alvin in that same exact order. What I gave him was for his use only and for his page, NOT for everyone to copy and paste and then to carry it over here to WIKIPEDIA. On top of that, I gave Alvin 2 options for the term Samoan, both Kamoa and the archaic Hamoa. I know that they (Kula Kaiapuni students) tend to prefer Kamoa, but somehow in the copy & paste only Hamoa got transferred over, which makes me uncomfortable.

I don't understand why you had to revert the "Hapa Haole" back limiting it to music only since that is not the only reason why we use "Hapa Haole". It is not restricted to a hybrid music, but rather anything hybrid in general. I would put it back but what's the sense really if you're only going to revert it back? I apologize for taking out a bit too much and wouldn't mind at all if you or anyone else put everything back in, minus the chop-suey comment unless it was explained further as I just did.

Actually, I think that's a very good idea, to expand on hapa-haole and chop-suey, giving the nuances. That would contribute a great deal to the article. Do you want to do it, or shall I try? Zora 00:09, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

But again, my main issue was the other stuff in relation to "Hapa" and it seems that people felt it was necessary to hint that there were differences in opinions as to the meaning of the word. I could care less if people want to undermine my culture but I do mind if my own information of which I gave to one person is transferred here, and that would be the subject of "Compounds". So the least everyone here could do is respect that part and NOT put it back in.

Mamoahina, no one owns information. That's the whole point of wikipedia. I'm willing to go along with leaving it out, because after looking at the article without it, the article seems more balanced. Plus I have to admit that I don't ofter HEAR those terms used. Zora 00:09, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And on a side note, the 'okina may be an issue for me, but only when it's used incorrectly. The omission of it really doesn't bother me, especially since I've experienced while growing up 3 different orthographical changes. Ka Po'e Ni'ihau don't use them and since I do genealogy I constantly read documents that lack 'okina, so it's not really an issue, only those who don't speak the language and don't know how to pronounce the words or cannot distinguish one with the 'okina from one without it have an issue with the lack of the 'okina. So the example with mu'umu'u really is not an issue because the double vowel would be separately pronounced anyway. Mamoahina 21:50, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It was an issue for me <g> because I grew up on the mainland, and everyone there said "moomoo", like a cow mooing, and completely dropped the 'okina. When I found out the correct pronunciation, I had to work to root the "moomoo" out of my vocabulary. Zora 00:09, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

OWNING info.

Zora, I am fully aware of copyright laws as well as the Digital Millenium Copyright Act of 1998. I know that what Alvin put on his site was not copyrighted however I would think that because any information could be used that people would be a bit more creative (as they have been with various pages regarding "Hawaii") and not copy a website such as http://hapas.com. After all, we all are aware that incorrect information is available on the internet. I have seen way too many of that myself.

I do think it's better without those unnecessary compounds. In reality, it seems to fit well without it. Not unless one has a command of the Hawaiian language would I think it's okay to incorporate all of those, but even in the Hawaiian language one wouldn't hear those terms used either.

And you are more than likely to add more details regarding the nuances of hapa-haole and chop suey. That would be better if it were explained more. Sorry but I really don't feel like doing actual "contributions". But now I see how much have come about all in relation to "Hawaii", it seems easier for me to say what is okay or not. After all, I recall when Hawaii was empty and my friend suggested that I fill it up because of my extensive knowledge in Hawaiian history but felt very uncomfortable putting down too much information so readily available via the internet only because of protocols of the culture. Mamoahina 05:16, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Why I removed the picture

I removed the picture of the pretty starlet because she is described as Chinese-Caucasion, without any mention of Hawaiian ancestry. Given that some people feel it's WRONG to use the term hapa for anyone without Hawaiian blood, I think it might be better not to have just that one picture. If we had a bunch of pictures, with a caption indicating that there is a controversy, that would work too. Zora 07:06, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I know this is original research, but I've heard it used to refer to any White mixed with any Asian or Pacific Islander ancestry, and in some cases the term includes Blasians, Latino-Asians, and Arab-Asians. To avoid being biased, we should keep that picture there, but include information saying there is a controversy. We want to have a neutral point of view.--69.234.214.46 (talk) 21:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Kristin K.

I saw that picture of her, and now it's gone. The thing is, the term "hapa" has changed, which is why I thought it was unnecessary really to add it in here to begin with. That was only because of the difference in meaning of how people in Hawaii may interpret it depending on which island and age that they are, and different from those of the west coast continental U.S. Mamoahina 14:24, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hapa and chop suey as slurs

The sentence "Both words are used descriptively and would not be felt as slurs." referring to "hapa" and "chop suey" seems like too strong an assertion to me. I prefer "Both phrases are used descriptively and few Hawaiians consider them as slurs." I do not have any problem if someone wishes to revert this, however. --Theo (Talk) 02:21, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've always heard the terms used descriptively. They might have been considered slurs many years ago. But the phrasing you introduced is OK, since there might indeed be people who still think that the words are offensive slang. (Years ago, I met an old haole lady who still refered to Japanese as "Japs" and said that they were sneaky, always trying to go where they weren't wanted. Since she was only intermittently compos mentis, there was no point in arguing with her. So sad ...) Zora 13:02, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Another anon contributor

Someone who has just discovered Wikipedia has worked the article over thoroughly. This new editor has no doubts that "hapa" is correctly used to describe part-Asians and part-Pacific Islanders, and added a list of famous hapas that mixed part-Hawaiians with everyone else. The list is composed exclusively of "hapas" who are currently celebrities in the mainland US.

I split the list into two parts, in deference to the equally certain editors who believe that only part-Hawaiians can be hapas, and left it as it was, but I have strong doubts that it's appropriate. It leaves out any part-Hawaiian hapas who are well-known in Hawai'i, but not outside the islands, and it seems to assume that the world outside the US just doesn't exist. Comments from other editors solicited. Zora 21:06, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Someone has been busy copying other websites and throwing it into Wikipedia in order to make it seem "valid". -Mamoahina 13:40, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Born and raised in Hawaii, I had never, ever heard anyone demand that hapa refer to people with kanaka maoli ancestry. Although Lana Robbins of realhapas.com has a particular opinion on the matter, she in no way reflects the opinion of anything but an extremist minority. Without any references whatsoever, she has taken it upon herself to demand a redefinition of a colloquial term that has always meant "part", with no implied connotation other than perhaps a shorthand version of "hapa haole". I have edited out this tin-foil hat POV, and especially removed the unrelated pacific islander/asian section. --JereKrischel 18:59, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

And born and raised in the islands too, I had never, ever heard anyone demand that hapa refer to people with Haole and Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Filipino ancestry Jere. You and others in no way reflect the opinions of anything but an extremist minority. What makes you think that you and others whose use of "hapa" has only begun to become popular via the internet are in the MAJORITY, without ay references whatsoever? Just as you claim Lana has taken it upon herself to demand a redefinition of a colloquial term that has always meant "part", with no implied connotation other than perhaps a shorthand version of "hapa haole", you and the others who demand to redefine it to mean something else now, can't you just see the hypocrisy in your claims in order to make your point? You people are so freckin' lazy! I always grew up with using the term HAPA HAOLE. But then again, I wasn't raised on an island lacking 'oiwi and dominated by outsiders where outside influence is inevitable. I can accept you not having another person's definition but don't make yourself look like a hypocrite Jere. Try another approach rather than go off on a tangent to my comment that had nothing to do with the redefining of the word, but rather going to all that trouble to validate their claim. Respond with pertinent responses where appropriate Jere (like to Zora, not to me). Don't use any opportunity you can to spread your agenda! Just as kaanai affects you, it drains me as well. Frankly I don't think you're ready for another. --Mamoahina 14:49, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Mamoahina, I think you're arguing my point. The term we both grew up with was "hapa haole", with the implication that you were part haole, and part something else. Lana has been trying to demand that the something else must always be kanaka maoli. This flies in the face of both of our experiences. Certainly, "hapa" has always meant "part", and you can find this referenced in every hawaiian dictionary available (wehewehe.org). This is not at all an "agenda" on my part Mamoahina, although I suppose I understand how you can perceive it that way. I am not in any way trying to insist that "hapa" means anything but "part", and you've clearly illustrated how in both of our experiences, it is often used as shorthand for "hapa haole", not "hapa kanaka". --JereKrischel 19:05, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

As part of an extended hapa haole family from O'ahu, I think that the usual generous Hawaiian doesn't care at all that my kids, Chinese and more or less haole, are called hapa. Or that my nephews who are part Hawaiian, Portugese, Japanese and haole are also called hapa. When the kids were little "local" women would approach the shopping cart and say, "What are they?" They knew that they were hapa haole, but they wanted to know the interesting part, the non haole part. from patfromlogan (and lanikai and pearl city, and kailua, and...

External Links

I've moved the majority of External Links here until they can be sorted out; I'm sure some contain good information, but others appear to be personal sites or commerical links. Anyhow, feel free to move these back into the article space as appropriate. --Alan Au 07:34, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Part Asian, 100% Hapa, Hapa portraits from Kip Fulbeck and Chronicle Books Two Cultures, One Princess Swirl - A Mixed Community Hapa Issues Forum MixedFolks.com - Representing Multiracial People Cornell Hapa Student Association Half-Korean Online Community

Eurasian Association of Singapore Eurasian Nation Everything Eurasian Halvsie - Half Japanese Online Community for Multicultural Women AsianWeek Article Regarding HIF conference "You Don't Look Japanese!" Blasian forums Amerasian Schools Okinawa

FYI the * Two Cultures, One Princess link didn't work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.207.48 (talk) 16:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Changes

"In the Hawaiian language and in Hawaiian Pidgin, a hapa is an individual of mixed racial or ethnic heritage."

The above line is wrong as no hawaiian dictionary says this, plus this is a repeat of the last paragraph. I am going to update this text to reflect the meaning found in the most widely used hawaiian dictionary from hawaii.edu

"Portion, fragment, part, fraction, installment; to be partial, less"

--Wikvin 03:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite

The opening had become completely jumbled, and someone had removed all mention of the controversy regarding the definition of the word. I need a reference for the "only part-Hawaiian" theory and guess that I can find it in past versions of the article. I don't agree with that theory, but it shouldn't just be thrown out. Zora 19:56, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Zora, I think that it should be thrown out - it's a fringe position, hardly common among any group. The person most vocal about that online is someone named Lana Robbins, who created a website "realhapas" after getting into fights on other discussion boards. I'm pulling it out, since it's completely the invention of a single person for the most part. --JereKrischel 23:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm OK with that, at least for now. I'll ask my Hawaiian teacher what he thinks. He's a kumu hula and lives in Nanakuli, so has some idea what's happening in the Hawaiian community. Zora 23:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I removed Lana's semi-anonymous additions, both for POV pushing, and factual error (see Haole for a refutation of that "without breath" translation myth). I'm sure asked random people around Hawaii if someone who was part japanese and part white was "hapa", you'd get 99% affirmative answers. --JereKrischel 23:31, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Hapa

Why is the article so short? It should have more pictures and captions about the debate of the definition.

This link might be helpful too. http://www.haolehubbyclub.com/Hapakidsclub.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.228.114 (talk) 02:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Hapa everything else

I've noticed how so many sites on the web have quoted Alan's former "hapas.com" site with the specific ethnic description utilizing "hapa", like Hapa Kamoa, Hapa Sepania, etc. I should know this for a fact because not only did Alan ask me about the different terms in Hawaiian, I wrote it out in lower case to where all these other sites have copied the same exact thing, in lower case. I remembered I almost wrote "paniolo" versus sepania, which sepania is a term used by the younger generation. Mamoahina (talk) 06:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Where can I find nude photos of hapa women? I want to see if I really don't look strange compared to them.

Where can I find nude photos of hapa women? I want to see if I really don't look strange compared to them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.227.168.162 (talk) 00:15, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

This is supposed to be a discussion on the article not what you look like...well there was a picture of CLOTHED hapa girls up there, but they removed it. If your curious to see how you compare to them, here's a group of pictures of clothed hapa kids: http://www.haolehubbyclub.com/Hapakidsclub.htm What race and gender are you? 69.234.190.14 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:36, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Wei Ming Dariotis external links

Hi All,

I've been reading the shifting definitions and external links for this article for several years, as I teach a class on Asian Americans of Mixed Heritage and I assign some research on the word "Hapa" every semester. Being very new to the world underneath the surface of wikipedia, however, I just started reading the discussion around this article and I've been fascinated by the communal editing process in which you are all so actively and passionately engaged.

My question is this, who decided to include both my article "Hapa: The Word of Power" and my website? The article has a counter and it has received quite a few hits since going up in December-I'm wondering if most of them have been coming through this article? I also just wanted to know what criteria were used to judge the "worthiness" of my work as external links, as I note that quite a few of the other links that were posted previously have been removed.

Thank you for any response. Please email me at dariotis@sfsu.edu

Wei Ming Dariotis 130.212.151.49 (talk) 16:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Hapa Happy Hour

Hello All!

I sincerely apologize as I am new to the wiki and didn't know how to check my talk page until just now. I have added to the external links, Hapa Happy Hour, which is currently the only biweekly podcast hosted by three "Hapa" women. One of the hosts was a featured panelist at this year's Filipino American National Historical Society's biennial conference in June. They discuss the many layers of the multiracial experience as well as interview other multi-ethnic individuals and experts in the field. Please let me know if you feel this link is appropriate. Thanks for your consideration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hapa Wahine (talk • contribs) 02:34, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Hapas are simply multiracial

It is possible for a person of Hapa (Asian/Polynesian/Caucasian) ancestry to resemble more than three races. Some Hapas are mistaken for being Hispanic or Mexican, although Hawaiian Puerto Ricans have long resided in the islands for over a century. Hapas can have African and American Indian ancestry in addition to Caucasian/European depending on ones' family history. Each individual of the Hapa ethnocultural phenomena can appear more Asian, white or Polynesian, or resemble something more unique in appearance than the "average" Hawaiian. + 71.102.7.77 (talk) 01:20, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

hapa pride!

i would love to add more to this page in the future but for now i'd like to suggest that anyone who identifies as hapa, adopt this userbox i made:

Hapa	This user is hapa & happy about it!. +

by adding: {{User hapa}} to your userpage.
i'm working on a category called Hapa Wikipedians, since the last one, hapas, was deleted. hopefully this category can help us keep in touch and allow us to have a more unified discussion of upcoming edits!
Designsbyd (talk • global contribs • email) 03:11, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

image

Can someon help me out with the image table? Also does anybody know the terms for Tahitian-Hawaiian, Indian-Hawaiian, and etc show in the 1909 galleries of Hawaiians?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:50, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Clarity needed

It's clear that the definition is half.

The first sentence of the article suggests that if you do not specify what half modifies, then you assume asian. However, later in the article it suggests that half modifies white.

To clear things up, I would say that it's best to use the sentence, "In the Hawaiian language, hapa is defined as: portion, fragment, part, fraction, installment; to be partial, less." maybe add, "with regards to mixed race."

Then explain that some common assumed connotations include half-white and half-asian. (I was personally taught it meant half white...)

I think these changes will clarify the phrase a bit better than it is currently written.

22:06, 25 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.8.84.123 (talk)

Hapa

The list of Japan actors should be pruned or removed since the term hapa does not extend outside of Hawaii. Only individual from Hawaii or having something to do with Hawaii should be included.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:01, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Aren't Hapas Hawaiians or from Hawaii?

Why are there so many non-Hawaiians in this list? 99.179.174.131 (talk) 23:28, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Aiming to reach consensus on lead

In my edit here I have added a sentence referring to the difference in the usage of hapa between local Hawaiians and other groups. This is acknowledged in several sources. My hope is that editors can reach a WP:Consensus on the wording of the lead. I have tried to remain neutral and close to the literature, however, but please forgive any missteps as I lack local expertise in this subject.

• Bernstein, Mary; De la Cruz, Marcie (2009). ""What are You?": Explaining Identity as a Goal of the Multiracial Hapa Movement". Social Problems. 56 (4). University of California Press: 722–745. doi:10.1525/sp.2009.56.4.722. Retrieved 2 September 2013.

• Template:Cite article

Regards, Pendrop9 (talk) 12:46, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Continuing to work towards consensus

Thank you for your thoughtful edits. In my subsequent edit here I attempted to continue your idea of creating consensus by citing numerous links documenting the word's usage as meaning part Asian or part Asian/Pacific Islander in the continental U.S. (rather than California only) while also keeping the previous Hawaiian definition referring to any type of ethnic mix.

User 74.108.86.228 continues to revert without explanation. I invite user 74.108.86.2289 (or various 74.108.86 variants; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:74.108.86.78) to join in the discussion rather than engaging in edit warring. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.189.221.68 (talk) 07:11, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Working towards a data-supported consensus

I am working towards consensus too, but only one that is supported by the data. Explanations for the reversions to Pendrop9's edit and 128.111.216.224's edit have already been given on their talk pages. Please see the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Pendrop9

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:128.111.216.224 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.101.70.128 (talk) 16:21, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Realistic Observation vs. Personal Opinion

I do not understand 74.101.70.128's argument. I am in Japan and we have a hapa club here which means half Asian (Japanese obviously). The examples given by Pendrop9 and 128.111.216.224 show the word is being used in areas across the U.S. as well (74.101.70.128 saying the MIT hapa club must be made up of people from Hawaii is stretching it).

A quick google search shows many more examples outside California of "hapa" being used to mean part Asian:

http://www.wikicu.com/Hapa_Club http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/harvardhapa/ http://www.tuftsdaily.com/tufts-hapa-reaches-out-to-mixed-race-students-1.2772876#.Ui708mSkcTk

Then you have examples like http://hapavoice.com/ and http://seaweedproductions.com/the-hapa-project/community/ which have hundreds of people posting from all over the world identifying hapa as part Asian.

And the definition on Urban Dictionary with +3400 votes http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hapa

With all this said it's pretty obvious the word is being used outside of California to mean part Asian so why not just relax and let the wikipedia page say "particularly part Asian" or something like this? Viewing the page's edit history it appears it is only one person who keeps reverting the page and Wikipedia is not a place to promote your personal positions it is about accuracy. The word has obviously changed and with all these examples it is clear that to be accurate about the usage of the word today you must include its definition as part Asian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.72.194.148 (talk) 10:45, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

De-Politicizing Article

In my edit here I attempt to de-politicize the article's overall tone:

- Moved the "Some see the use of the term as a misappropriation of Hawaiian culture" line to article's body rather than lead section;

- Added "especially with a partial Asian and/or Pacific Islander background" to lead line (taken directly from existing edit's citation)

- Added "Pacific Islander" to above line

- Added additional support from previously cited University of Hawaii article "Jonathan Okamura, professor of ethnic studies at the University of Hawai`i at Manoa, explained that although hapa is a word that describes all people of mixed ancestry, hapa is primarily used to describe people who are half white and half Asian American"

-Added article from Stanford Journal of Asian American Studies "Today, the term is commonly used to describe Asian Pacific Islanders of mixed race heritage."

The previous edit here can be read as promoting a false controversy via a Hawaii vs. California usage (curiously both the University of Hawaii and Double Tongued Dictionary citations were cited as evidence of this, but I find no mention in either source); whereas the controversies discussed on this Talk page revolve more about cultural appropriation and linguistic evolution. If anyone can find proof of the Hawaii vs. California usage this should go in the article's body or perhaps a new section.184.189.221.68 (talk) 07:30, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

No Political Tone Exists, Yet Ironically Politics is Being Added

Prior to 184.189.221.68's edit on September 24, 2013, the article was very objectively accurate and empirical: it described the two different usages of the word hapa in Hawaii and California. Despite's 184.189.221.68's alleged attempt to "de-politicize" the article, 184.189.221.68's edit ironically makes it more politicized.

184.189.221.68's edit politicizes the article because 184.189.221.68 tries to give priority to the California usage over the Hawaii usage, when both usages clearly exist, both in reality and in the documentation. The most politically neutral way to approach the two usages is to describe their existence and leave it at that.

184.189.221.68 eliminated all references to the Hawaii usage. For example, the article used to cite the Taniguchi and Heidenreich's quotation: "Currently, Hawaiian locals use Hapa to refer to any individual who is racially mixed." (Taniguchi and Heidenreich (2005), p. 137). 184.189.221.68 is clearly trying to eliminate evidence of the Hawaii usage and wants the article to default to the California usage. Such behavior is political. It is worth noting that 184.189.221.68 is located in Santa Barbara, California. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.108.89.235 (talk) 13:58, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Article Lead & Citation Clean Up

In my edit I hope to resolve an edit war between anonymous IP users. I have written the lead based on searchable evidence regarding the current use of the word (many of the previous citations were dead links).

My supporting argument follows:

Lead & Recent Citations

The lead has seemed to cause the most edit warring with one editor arguing a dichotomy of Hawaiian-centric vs. California-centric use.[1] While there is evidence of the Hawaiian use originally meaning part-Hawaiian (and later meaning any mixed ethnicity), there is also evidence of the word being used to mean half or part Asian in Hawaii (please see citations below), as well as a great deal of evidence of the word being used to mean partial Asian/Pacific Islander ancestry in the continental U.S. including outside California (please see below - Additional References). Therefore I have used "mixed ethnicity" as the main lead and added especially with an Asian or Pacific Islander background as such:

"A hapa is a person of mixed ethnicity, especially with an Asian or Pacific Islander background"

This quote is taken directly from the Double Tongued dictionary link previously cited by numerous editors: "hapa adj. racially mixed, esp. with an Asian racial background. Editorial Note: This is “Asian” in the North American sense, where it usually refers to East Asians from China, Japan, Vietnam, and Korea. Etymological Note: Hawaiian hapa ‘half.’" . (I added "Pacific Islander" to include the Hawaiian lineage.)

Citing a University of Hawaii at Manoa article (Folen and Ng) also supports article lead: "Jonathan Okamura, professor of ethnic studies at the University of Hawai`i at Manoa, explained that although hapa is a word that describes all people of mixed ancestry, hapa is primarily used to describe people who are half white and half Asian American"

I removed the Ozaki and Johnson link because it is dead. Please re-add if appropriate.

The second part of the lead I changed to: "The term originates in Hawaii from the Hawaiian word for "half." I am unable to find the previously cited Pukui definition online. Can anyone help? In lieu of this I am using the Merriam-Webster definition: "Hawaiian, from hapa half (from English half) + haole, First Known Use: 1919"

I am unable to read the Bernstein and De La Cruz article as it must be purchased. Previous citations quote p. 723: "Today, Hapa is used to describe any person of mixed Asian Pacific American descent." Can anyone verify this?

I read the cited Taniguchi paper which focuses on the use of hapa in California. From the abstract: "Recently, many mixed-race Asian/Pacific Islanders on the mainland began identifying with and using the term Hapa to create organizations specific to their needs. Largely recognized as a California phenomenon, the number of Asian-descent multiracials identifying as Hapa is ever increasing." While the author summarizes by criticizing California-based Hapas for excluding indigenous Hawaiians from Asian/Pacific Islander panethnicity, I do not feel this sufficiently warrants a California-only definition and/or Hawaii-only definition for the Wikipedia article, nor have I been able to find anything else supporting this dichotomy. On a separate note and with all due respect, I'm curious how other Wikipedia editors weigh this graduate student paper versus more mainstream sources.

The Huynh-Hohnbaum citation does not mention any geographical use of the word aside from its Hawaiian origins: "The term 'hapa' is commonly used to refer to multiracial Asian and Pacific Islanders (APIs) and originates from a Native Hawaiian word. 'Hapa,' which roughly translates to mean 'half,' refers to individuals of mixed descent and is frequently used as a label to describe API mixed-race panethnicity, although it's most common application is to multiracial Asian and white individuals." This citation supports a partial mixed Asian/Pacific Islander definition as opposed to any mixed ethnicity.

The Stanford Journal of Asian American Studies (Gamble 2009): "Today, the term is commonly used to describe Asian Pacific Islanders of mixed race heritage."

Additional References Showing Use of Hapa

Examining the sources and external links I find the following support for the lead:

Hapavoice.com - this website features scores if not hundreds of submissions by self-identifying hapas from around the world. I would think this clearly supports the use of the word outside Hawaii and California

TheHapaProject.com - another website with hundreds of submissions by individuals identifying as hapa

Massachusetts Institute of Technology Hapa Club - "Hapa is the Hawaiian word for "half" and was initially a derogatory term used to describe someone who was half Hawaiian. The phrase "hapa haole" was commonly used, meaning half white. The term hapa was initially adapted by people of Japanese-White mixed heritage to describe themselves, and is now used to describe anyone of mixed heritage with partially Asian or Pacific Islander ancestry."

Harvard Half Asian People's Association - More evidence of the word's use outside California. "The term hapa is a Hawaiian word that means half or part. Originally a derogatory term for a person of half-Hawaiian descent, the word has since been embraced by people of part Asian/Pacific Island descent."

Orange County Register, "Hapa Nation" - "Derived from the Hawaiian term "hapa haole," or "half white," the label was originally derogatory. Over the past decade, it's been adopted by a wide range of people whose ancestry is part Asian or Pacific Islander."

Psychology Today, "Mixed Race, Pretty Face" - "Known in popular culture by the Hawaiian term hapa (meaning "half"), people with mixed Asian and European origins have become synonymous with exotic glamour." This definition also focuses on Asian/European mixes.

Urban Dictionary - While I am skeptical of any user generated dictionary, it is noteworthy that the top definition reads: ha•pa (hä’pä) adj. 1. Slang. of mixed racial heritage with partial roots in Asian and/or Pacific Islander ancestry. n. 2. Slang. a person of such ancestry. {der./Hawaiian: hapa haole. (half white)} with over 3400 votes

I welcome discussion and hope these edits make sense to the community.TAG speakers (talk) 04:09, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

You need to allow time for interested parties, including IP editors to comment, before you re-add this material to the article. Normally 7 days is adequate. GregJackP Boomer! 04:23, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Eurasians are Hapas too.

I know you want Hapa to be only half Mexican and half Black but Eurasians are the ones who made Half White popular. It is not Half White, it is Half Asian that is Hapa not Half White. I am Half White, but I am not Half Mexican and Half Black. Half White is more popular because of me. I am Eurasian.

"Hapa" is more commonly known for half asians with either half latin or half black, rather than half white and half asian Eurasians.

I thought Jessica Sanchez was Eurasian but she said that she's not white so she is half mexican not half white. Sanjaya is half italian and half indian so he is Eurasian not her and they are both American Idol. That is another thing you're confused about. 24.211.179.19 (talk) 11:48, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

oh and eurasians can be white when a group of hapas are either mexican or black because they are all half asian. 24.211.179.19 (talk) 11:50, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I am still the lightest foundation skin color. I am a half white. Half whites are usually darker than beige, olive, or golden, or as dark as black people. I am not them. I am the fairest skin color. I am still half white because my parents are French dad and Vietnamese mum. So I am still half white even though my neutrogena foundation is classic ivory, the lightest and fairest and whitest skin color and I have alabaster pale skin, pale alabaster skin. Even though I am still half white. That is life. That's life! That's life. 24.211.179.19 (talk) 12:16, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not going to buy this in a million years, I'm thinking of buying it within a month! I just haven't gotten to it yet! I haven't gotten to it yet! Neutrogena Skin Clearing Foundation in Fairest/Lightest. Which is Classic Ivory. I didn't choose it. It really is my skin color. I didn't choose my skin color! I am the fairest/lightest pale alabaster skin color. I am half white. That's life. That's Eurasian. French dad and Vietnamese mum. That's life. 24.211.179.19 (talk) 12:19, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Foundation really is darker than my skin. It is the lightest/fairest color. I am lighter/fairer than it. We don't choose. Whatever is the lightest darkest than us is what we have to buy. For me, it's the lightest/fairest foundation, because the lightest/fairest foundation is darker than me. Vietnamese probably isn't Asian but we are playing so it is Asian so I am Eurasian which is half white and half asian which is half french and half vietnamese which is Eurasian. That is my race. It is called Eurasian. I am Eurasian. I am half white. I am half asian. I am half french. I am half vietnamese. I am Eurasian. That is me. I was born in the era of David Archuleta, he is a Capricorn like me and Chris Daughtry. That is who I am. A Capricorn. Not so much as a Eurasian or a half white or a half asian. or a half french or a half vietnamese. But I am eurasian. I am half white. I am half vietnamese. I am half asian. I am hapa. That is me. That is who I am. I am buying the lightest and fairest foundation from Neutrogena SkinClearing company at Amazon.com. I am online. I am internet. I am mirc. that is called miranda cosgrove because my children are called miranda cosgrove because my children's father and I met on mirc. That is an American Story. A classic American LEGEND! I am Eurasian.24.211.179.19 (talk) 12:27, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I can buy whatever I want, but I didn't choose it! It chose me! I haven't gotten this yet but it's mine! I do whatever. I am Classic Ivory. http://www.amazon.com/Neutrogena-SkinClearing-Liquid-Makeup-Classic/dp/B001MS7H1O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381063070&sr=8-1&keywords=neutrogena+skinclearing+foundation+classic+ivory I am Classic Ivory. 24.211.179.19 (talk) 12:38, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Re: Article Lead & Citation Clean Up

TAG speakers' points have already been addressed in the following links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:74.108.86.78

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Pendrop9

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:128.111.216.224 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.108.89.56 (talk) 23:41, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Re: Article Lead & Citation Clean Up

Dear 74.108.89.56 - It would be helpful if you addressed the points made on this talk page directly. I refer to those by myself, Pendrop9, TAG speakers, and 119.72.194.148 (writing from Japan). 184.189.221.68 (talk) 02:08, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Article Lead Change ... All 3 sources say Asian descent

I undid the last revision which does not emphasize any type of Asian/Pacific Islander descent. The previous edit states "A hapa is a person of mixed ethnic heritage" and they cite 3 sources but all 3 of these sources in one way of another say mixed ethnic heritage especially with Asian descent. I am fairly new to wikipedia so please excuse any rookie mistakes. I'm referring to the edit by 74.108.89.215

one person with an agenda vs the world

Yeah came here via multiracial forum discussion obviously one person trying to push their issue despite all facts and citations. If everyone in every Hapa club started editing it's just what they want so don't play along. So I say we all just come on now and then to correct the site. Let this person check Wikipedia every hour every day ..it'll give them something to do!!! ;) Hapa power! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.9.111.14 (talk) 17:49, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Please read "Re: Article Lead & Citation Clean Up"

There is no agenda other than accuracy. Please read the links in the section titled "Re: Article Lead & Citation Clean Up".

Furthermore, 216.9.111.14 is encouraging a bullying mentality, which is inappropriate. An active minority of people pushing for an inaccurate article lead doesn't make the article any more accurate, nor does it address the legitimate concerns made above. Also, the version of the article lead that delineates the two usages incorporates the usage that 216.9.111.14 is bullying to institute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.108.79.59 (talk) 18:07, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

the real bully

Sorry 74.108.79.59 but looking at all the evidence on this talk page and the article's edit history it really seems YOU are the bully. We have hapa clubs all over the country and apparently Japan too using the word to mean part Asian/Pacific Islander (you know like it says IN YOUR OWN CITATIONS) yet you continue to assert your own personal view.

I think this post is the most thoughtful (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hapa#Article_Lead_.26_Citation_Clean_Up) why don't you answer it instead of edit warring?

Wisconsin represent!

Just a shout out from Wisconsin! We have a hapa club here and it's all good and yes we're all part Asian. My guess is this person who keeps undoing everything may be the same troll who did that realhapas.com site some years back. After she got called out everywhere it got pulled down. Who knows? But I know I'm not in California or Hawaii so Hapa Hapa Hapa Hapa Hapa 64.83.234.211 (talk) 02:05, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

The Importance of Statistical Significance & The False-Consensus Effect

72.21.225.66 has not read the section right above his own. The points in "Article Lead & Citation Clean Up" has already been addressed in the links in "Re: Article Lead & Citation Clean Up". If people really want the responses to be reposted on this talk page, then that can be done. It would be redundant though.

72.21.225.66, 64.83.234.211, etc. are all using the argument "This hapa club in State X is all part Asian, therefore hapa must mean part Asian." The article lead addresses the two main usages: the Hawaii original and the Californian evolution. The second usage is a California usage because it originated there. Just because a hapa club in Wisconsin uses the California usage doesn't change the fact that they're using a usage that's from California.

Similarly, in Massachusetts, people say "wicked". If someone in Georgia or even an entire neighborhood in Atlanta started saying "wicked" in the same way as the people in Massachusetts do, it doesn't change the fact that "wicked" is a New England usage nor does it mean that "wicked" has suddenly spread to Georgia. The article lead merely points that out.

Until someone produces documentation that statistically significant numbers of people who aren't hapa themselves in places other than Hawaii and California know and use the word hapa (in either usage), the sources currently only prove that there are two definitions and that the California usage has not really become universal in the way the other reverting editors seem to want to believe is the case. Please see the Wikipedia article on the false-consensus effect <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False-consensus_effect> and Wikipedia's policy on reversions due to no consensus <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_revert_due_solely_to_%22no_consensus%22>.

Furthermore, the reverted version is less accurate because it doesn't explicitly address the clear difference in the meaning of the original usage in Hawaii, which is still used to this day. Making that difference clear only makes the article better, not worse.

In the end, there is no need to change the article lead to a less clear version when the more complete article lead acknowledges both usages and indicates their origins. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.108.80.181 (talk) 04:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Persistent Trolling

74.108.80.181 seems more interested in persuading others to his/her argument than finding consensus.

FWIW I was at the University of Chicago as an undergrad in the early 00's and we had a loose Hapa group. All of us were part Asian and we felt the term came from Hawaii. I know this isn't important to 74.108.80.181 but that's the way it was. Two of us were from Hawaii BTW.

It would help if 74.108.80.181 addressed why their own citation (double tongued dictionary) says "especially with an Asian background" and their UH article does the same.166.147.104.174 (talk) 22:47, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

The edit I reverted to seems much more accurate in its citations. 166.147.104.174 (talk) 22:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Another try at concensus

We seem to have several differing opinions and it appears 74.108.80.181 seems to be taking on all comers.

So I tried to re-write the lead (please read this carefully) using exactly the citations 74.108.80.181 cites.

"Racially mixed, especially with an Asian background" ... I took this directly from 74.108.80.181's third citiation, NPR's Way with Word radio. 74.108.80.181's first citation (Ozaki and Johnston) cannot be found online, so I would encourage 74.108.80.181 to either give us more information on this if they wish to continue to use it or leave it out. I have removed the citation.

74.108.80.181's second citation for the opening line is from a University of Hawaii article by Folen and Ng. I quote directly from it: "Jonathan Okamura, professor of ethnic studies at the University of Hawai`i at Manoa, explained that although hapa is a word that describes all people of mixed ancestry, hapa is primarily used to describe people who are half white and half Asian American." Since this is a UH prof I think this calls in to question 74.108.80.181's argument that in Hawaii it means only anyone of mixed heritiage.

Anyway I concluded the lead with the following: "The term originates in Hawaii from the Hawaiian word for "part" or 'mixed'.[4][5]"

I also moved the statement "Some see the use of the term as a misappropriation of Hawaiian culture" into the article's body. This is way to political for the lead IMHO ... plus I can find citations that argue against this but better to leave politics out I'd say.

Finally I agree with several of the commenters above regarding a "California" usage. 74.108.80.181's seem specious in requesting specific statistical documents. Just looking at hapavoice.com I'm seeing scores of people from all over the world using the word and they are all part Asian. What more do you want?

Look 74.108.80.181 I know it feels like you are being ganged up on (and I agree some of the commenters could use a bit more tact and maturity) but I really feel the other editors are expressing a majority opinion. No one else seems to be taking up your argument. I also think everyone could stand to identify themselves by user names as well.. Sure I'm pretty new here but it would seem to be a good idea towards having civil discussion. Thanks! Polyglottz (talk) 03:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Re: Another try at concensus

Polyglottz ignores the fact that Professor Okamura specifically said "hapa is a word that describes all people of mixed ancestry" and prefers to focus on the clause after that. The reason why hapa primarily describes those who are part white and part Asian is because that's the most numerous type of hapa. Being part Asian is merely a subtype of general hapa-ness. Similarly, just because the iPhone is the most common smartphone doesn't mean the iPhone itself is the *definition* of a smartphone and any non-iPhone phone is not a smartphone. The definition of a smartphone is more general, even if the iPhone is the most numerous type of smartphone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.108.83.116 (talk) 08:56, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

The Slippery 704. IP and Their Personal Agenda

This Talk page shows at least 10 editors being reverted and bullied by one individual over the past month, the elusive 704.101-108. Many more examples in the article's history too. Your agenda is evident: you believe hapa has two separate definitions and cling to one graduate student paper as evidence while ignoring reams of mainstream media sources and citations. Renewing your IP doesn't anonymize you. 174.74.10.11 (talk) 18:04, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Re: The Slippery 704. IP and Their Personal Agenda

174.74.10.11 does not actually address the substantive arguments being made on the talk page. His point about mainstream media sources have already been addressed above.

Furthermore, I am not engaging in bullying. I am merely trying to make the article as accurate as possible. In fact, one could make the claim that everyone else is bullying me and trying to enforce an illusory consensus that is not supported by the data. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.108.91.34 (talk) 19:02, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Re: Re: The Slippery 704. IP and Their Personal Agenda

The substantive points have been repeatedly addressed by numerous editors including myself. I will repeat some of them here:

1) You cite the Folen & Ng article: "Jonathan Okamura, professor of ethnic studies at the University of Hawai`i at Manoa, explained that although hapa is a word that describes all people of mixed ancestry, hapa is primarily used to describe people who are half white and half Asian American" yet choose only to use only the first part of one quote. Since this is a University of Hawaii professor speaking it calls into question your argument that in Hawaii 'hapa' means only anyone of mixed heritage. In my edit here I do not focus only on a single clause of the quote as you accuse, but rather include the entire quote in my edit. Your edit focuses only on a single part of the quote.

The more important point however is being missed-- this Okamura quote comes from your edit's citation. Editors across this page are listing many other established and clearly credible sources which you ignore including CNN, Psychology Today, the Orange County Register, the Los Angeles Times, college and university organizations nationwide, mainstream published books, and websites with thousands of participants.

2) Your Ozaki and Johnston citation cannot be found online. Other editors have caught this as well. Yet you continue to list it without backup.

3) You also cite NPR's Way with Word radio, which defines hapa as "Racially mixed, especially with an Asian background." I have quoted directly from this source in my edit yet you revert it while also citing the very same article.

4) You have not provided any credible evidence that there are Hawaii-only and/or California-only definitions of the word. Clearly language evolves and this word which itself is borrowed from the English word for "half" has evolved to mean racially mixed especially with an Asian background. You list many citations after your Hawaii/California allegation yet none of them specifically support this argument. The only one which even discusses a "California" phenomena is a graduate student paper (Taniguchi and Heidenreich).

5) You continue to put the politicized statement "Some see the use of the term as a misappropriation of Hawaiian culture" into the article lead which demonstrates a politicizing and Hawaii-centric bias. This should be included in the article body under its own section if at all. Polyglottz (talk) 20:26, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Ding Dong 704 is Gone

BOOM! Well done locking the page Wikipedia! Hopefully 704 will find somewhere else to troll now. 12.39.6.101 (talk) 19:30, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Aggregated Response

Since no one seems to acknowledge that I've already addressed all of Polyglottz's and others' points (albeit in disparate places), I'll just put all of them together here on the talk page.

First of all, the words "especially with X" does not mean something needs X to be something. If you say "smartphones are mobile phones built on a mobile operating system, especially those with touchscreens," that doesn't mean those without touchscreens aren't smartphones; the "especially" indicates that a lot of smartphones do have touchscreens. The actual definition of a smartphone is "a mobile phone built on a mobile operating system."

Second, the etymology section (along with its references) makes clear that the word "hapa" in the Hawaiian language literally means "of mixed blood, person of mixed blood." One does not have to have Asian or Pacific Islander heritage to qualify as a hapa. Otherwise, the term "hapa ʻInikiki ʻAmelika" doesn't make sense because the word "hapa" was originally used to denote people who were mixed with Native Hawaiian blood and something else (in this case, Native Hawaiian and Native American). Many hapas do have Asian or Pacific Islander heritage, but having the definition of hapa be "a person of mixed Asian or Pacific Islander heritage" makes it sound like one cannot be a hapa without such heritage.

Polyglottz ignores the fact that Professor Okamura specifically said "hapa is a word that describes all people of mixed ancestry" and prefers to focus on the clause after that. The reason why hapa primarily describes those who are part white and part Asian is because that's the most numerous type of hapa. Being part Asian is merely a subtype of general hapa-ness. Similarly, just because the iPhone is the most common smartphone doesn't mean the iPhone itself is the *definition* of a smartphone and any non-iPhone phone is not a smartphone. The definition of a smartphone is more general, even if the iPhone is the most numerous type of smartphone.

The sources do not document the usage of the word "hapa" beyond California. The new usage appeared in California, but has not been shown to have spread beyond it. Perhaps Californians who moved away to other states are using the word in their new places of residence or some non-Californians who have exposure to California have adopted their usage, but that can be true of any phenomenon. It is inaccurate to present the California usage of "hapa" as ubiquitous without further documentation.

The crux of the question is: how many people in places other than Hawaii and California actually use the word hapa? The problem with the sources cited for this revision is that none of them actually document large numbers of people who use the word hapa outside of Hawaii and California. Let's go down the list:

1) The mere existence of the MIT Hapa Club does not indicate anything about the usage of the word hapa in Massachusetts or even just Boston. The MIT Hapa Club's website does not indicate where the members are from. For all we know, all of these hapa members could be from California. If that was true, it would still remain a California usage.

2) The Orange County Register article is a profile of Kip Fulbeck's book <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kip_Fulbeck>. Fulbeck is from Fontana, California. One would expect a Californian to use the California usage, so that's not surprising.

3) "One Big Hapa Family" is a clever title (as a play on "One Big Happy Family"), and quite simply, that is probably why the filmmaker Jeff Chiba Stearns used the word hapa in the title. For a documentary on mixed Japanese-Canadians, of course Stearns is going to do his research and eventually come across the word hapa. The website does not prove anything statistically about the actual usage of the word in Canada.

4) The Psychology Today article only says that the word hapa means half. It doesn't even go as far to mention if that means half Asian or half European. In fact, it doesn't even stick to the word hapa; it uses the word Eurasian more than hapa.

Furthermore, one article in a publication with national distribution doesn't indicate nationwide usage. In Hawaii, the locals use the word "slippers" to refer to "flipflops". If a journalist from Hawaii uses the word slippers to refer to flipflops in an article and gets the article published in a nationally distributed magazine, it doesn't mean the word slippers suddenly has nationwide usage with the definition of flipflops.

5) The Huffington Post blog post is similarly flawed as #2 and #4. This blog post mentions Kip Fulbeck's book and one blog post by a New York pastor doesn't indicate common usage of the word hapa by New Yorkers.

6) The CNN video has Betty Nguyen <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Nguyen> discussing Kip Fulbeck's book. There's nothing in the video to indicate that Nguyen, who grew up in Texas, is doing anything other than deferring to Fulbeck's California usage of hapa. She does not say in the video that she grew up using the word in Texas, and even if she did, that's still the word of one person from Texas.

In the end, without clear proof (preferably with statistics) that the word hapa is being pervasively used in places other than Hawaii and California, it is inaccurate to write the lead as if the word hapa has some sort of universal definition and ubiquitous usage. Explicitly delineating the places the two concurrent usages have been documented to be occurring is clearer and more accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryKia (talk • contribs) 11:38, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Civil Discussion with 704.108/GaryKia

First, GaryKia thank you for coming out of 704.108 IP anonymity.

I realize you have been blasted a lot on this page and that is not my intent. If you read back I have asked for civility from others in dealing with you even though we do not agree. Obviously you have a minority viewpoint on this page but that is no excuse for attacks on you.

I do not believe, nor do any other editors on here, that you have sufficiently proven any type of Hawaii vs. California definition. There is zero verifiable information supporting your alleged dichotomy. Furthermore, reams of reliable information from verifiable sources support the current definition of racially mixed with partial Asian/Pacific Islander background. I am listing just a few below ... none of which support a "California" or "Hawaii"-based difference in definition:

NPR's A Way With Words quoted directly and verbatim in my edit (a source you cite as well): "hapa adj. racially mixed, esp. with an Asian racial background. Editorial Note: This is “Asian” in the North American sense, where it usually refers to East Asians from China, Japan, Vietnam, and Korea. Etymological Note: Hawaiian hapa ‘half.'"

MIT Hapa Club (direct quote): "Hapa is the Hawaiian word for "half" and was initially a derogatory term used to describe someone who was half Hawaiian. The phrase "hapa haole" was commonly used, meaning half white. The term hapa was initially adapted by people of Japanese-White mixed heritage to describe themselves, and is now used to describe anyone of mixed heritage with partially Asian or Pacific Islander ancestry." (With all due respect, your claim that "The mere existence of the MIT Hapa Club does not indicate anything about the usage of the word hapa in Massachusetts or even just Boston" is incorrect. It's very existence documents the usage at MIT -- as do others below from New York, Rhode Island, etc.)

Harvard Hapa Club (direct quote): "The term hapa is a Hawaiian word that means half or part. Originally a derogatory term for a person of half-Hawaiian descent, the word has since been embraced by people of part Asian/Pacific Island descent."

Columbia University Hapa Club (direct quote): "Hapa Club is a cultural club for students of partial Asian ethnicity (from the Hawaiian word "hapa", which means exactly this."

Columbia Spectator (direct quote): ""Hapa" is a Hawaiian word used as both a noun and an adjective to refer to a person of partial or mixed Asian ethnicity. This quality distinguishes Hapa students from others of Asian descent at Columbia."

Brown University Hapa Club (direct quote): "The Brown Hapa Club is a safe space for students who have the unique experience of being not only multiethnic/multiracial, but specifically of part Asian and/or Pacific Islander descent."

Tokyo Hapa Club (direct quote): "The Hapa Club was founded by yours truly after Tak Norris and I organized a few dinners with friends and friends of friends who were all hapas, i.e., people whose ethnic mix consists of Asian/Pacific Island and another."

Psychology Today (direct quote): "Known in popular culture by the Hawaiian term hapa (meaning "half"), people with mixed Asian and European origins have become synonymous with exotic glamour."

Orange County Register (direct quote): "Derived from the Hawaiian term "hapa haole," or "half white," the label was originally derogatory. Over the past decade, it's been adopted by a wide range of people whose ancestry is part Asian or Pacific Islander."

Huffington Post (direct quote): "Hapa is a Hawaiian term that has come to refer to people who are multiracial, with one part of their heritage being Asian or Pacific Islander."

CNN (direct quote :30): "It's a Hawaiian term and technically it means half but essentially it means part Asian"

University of Hawaii article (direct quote): "The term hapa originated in Hawai`i from the Hawaiian word for “half.” While the term hapa was originally a derogatory name for people of mixed racial ancestry in Hawai`i, it has since been embraced as a term of pride for people who are racially and ethnically mixed ... Jonathan Okamura, professor of ethnic studies at the University of Hawai`i at Manoa, explained that although hapa is a word that describes all people of mixed ancestry, hapa is primarily used to describe people who are half white and half Asian American ... Okamura says that locals who live in Hawai`i “use the term primarily for white and Asian American and this is how they [hapas who live on the mainland] somewhat argue they’ve appropriated that term."

GaryKia, you also do not address cites such as hapavoice.com which features individuals worldwide using the term (direct quote): "Hapa, literally “half” in Hawaiian, was originally used as a derogatory term to describe people of biracial ancestry. Today, many multiracial individuals of Asian or Pacific Islander descent have embraced the word as a term of prideful self-identification. Although some object to the term’s appropriation and perceived misuse outside of its traditional Hawaiian context, “Hapa” has been widely adopted by the Asian and Pacific Islander multiracial communities."

Finally, you have argued against editors on this very page writing from Japan, Illinois, Wisconsin, etc. who challenge your edits. Surely you are not arguing that your theoretical "California" definition has spread worldwide while a different "Hawaii" definition remains locked in the islands.

Therefore I have chosen to revert your edit until you can provide legitimate citations supporting your claim about a "California" usage. Thank you.Polyglottz (talk) 22:06, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Lack of Sources for Statistically Significant Non-California Usage

Polyglottz continues to revert while avoiding responding squarely to my arguments. Quoting a barrage of media sources (particularly sources that I've already rebutted) doesn't address the fundamental logical flaw that I've reiterated multiple times about all of these sources: there is no statistical data to prove *usage* of the word hapa using the definition of "part Asian or Pacific Islander" beyond California. A million quotes from a million sources that have the same flaw does not prove anything. Please refrain from repeating the same arguments. Polyglottz has already done this several times, and this behavior does not further the discussion.

I actually do not need to prove a California usage beyond the current sources because most of the sources reference Californians like Kip Fulbeck for a definition. Until multiple sources document non-Californians with no ties to California using the California definition in statistically significant numbers, a universal definition of "part Asian or Pacific Islander" for the word hapa remains unproven.

In regards to HapaVoice.com, this blog was started by Erica Johnson, a graduate of UC Santa Barbara <http://aaja-la.org/2011/03/banana-2-the-bloggers-cometh/>. If you look at her LinkedIn profile, her background is completely set in California. <http://www.linkedin.com/in/ericarenaejohnson>. Yet again, this only proves that a Californian is perpetuating the California usage, and if international contributors to her blog think that the word has only one definition, then they're contributing while being misinformed. It would behoove Erica Johnson to clarify on her blog that people in Hawaii currently do not use the California definition, if she cares about editorial accuracy.

Polyglottz said "Surely you are not arguing that your theoretical 'California' definition has spread worldwide while a different 'Hawaii' definition remains locked in the islands." Actually, this is exactly what is happening. When mainstream media sources only talk to Californians like Kip Fulbeck and Erica Johnson and these same Californians produce works like "Part Asian, 100% Hapa" and HapaVoice.com, people who are not familiar with Hawaii and have never traveled there will only come to know the California usage. So yes, any incidental usage of the California definition outside of California is clearly being perpetuated by Californians. To be clear, there is nothing wrong with this phenomenon; however, the article lead should not perpetuate a universal definition until the California usage has actually (in a statistically significant sense) become the predominant usage worldwide. Until then, there are only two documented definitions.