Talk:Thaksin Shinawatra
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Summarizing the Article
I recently disputed the content of the article with Patiwat a couple of days ago on his user page. Reflecting on it, the reason I had so much trouble with the thing is that it is simply too long, making it filled with various innuendoes from both sides. I shortened the article (mostly cut and paste... too sleepy at the moment) and arranged it in chronological order.
The following is my proposed article. I do believe that it is fair for both sides; however, I personally loath Thaksin and you guys might want to check it over. I hope this isn't too much of a change. If you like it, please use it. (Forgive any errors, I'm just too sleepy)
Thaksin Shinawatra
Thaksin Shinawatra (Thai: ทักษิณ ชินวัตร, IPA: [tʰáksǐn tɕʰinnawát] (help•info); born July 26, 1949), Thai politician, is the current caretaker prime minister of Thailand and the leader of the Thai Rak Thai party. Before entering politics Thaksin was the founder of Shin Corporation, which included Advanced Info Service (AIS), the largest mobile phone operator. He was one of the wealthy individuals in Thailand. He is married to Khunying Potjaman Shinawatra (Damapong) and has three children: Panthongtae, Pinthongtha and Praethongtharn.
Early Career
Thaksin attended the Thai Police Cadet Academy and joined the Royal Thai Police Department in 1973. He later went on to obtain a master's degree in criminal justice from the Eastern Kentucky University in the United States in 1975. In 1978 he received a doctorate in criminal justice at Sam Houston State University in Texas and was later appointed Deputy Superintendent of the Policy and Planning Sub-division, General Staff Division, Metropolitan Police Bureau. Thaksin quit the police force in 1980 and ventured into various businesses. Overall, most were failures and he was heavily in debt. However, his fortune changed in 1982 when he profited from telecommunication investments. Shinawatra Computer and Communications Group was founded in 1987. In 1990, Thaksin made a daring but successful bid for a 20-billion baht, 20-year concession to operate the Thaicom Satellite.
- You seem to have erased the few paragraphs on his family's business and political background in Chiang Mai. I believe that some mention of his Chiang Mai roots is very important - after all, the North is his undisputed power base, and it is important to mention how that came to be. His highschool should also be mentioned - it is, after all, one of the most prestigous schools in the North. Patiwat 08:12, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
- Even if Thaksin never entered politics, he would still be remembered as one of Thailand's the most successful entrepreneurs and a key figure in the growth of Thailand's fast growing telecom sector. Devoting just 3 sentences to his business career is inappropriate. Patiwat 08:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
- You suggest shortening his business background to: "Thaksin quit the police force in 1980 and ventured into various businesses. Overall, most were failures and he was heavily in debt. However, his fortune changed in 1982 when he profited from telecommunication investments." I would prefer to be more specific here: mention what ventures were failures, and what was the investment that actually made him successful. It wasn't the satellite business - that has been one of the worst performers in the SCC portfolio. Patiwat 08:21, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Political Career
Political Debut (1994)
Thaksin joined Palang Dharma Party (PDP) in 1994 was appointed Foreign Minister that year. After joining the Cabinet, the Parliament approved amendments to the Constitution (specifically, Article 114) that prohibited ministers from receiving state concessions[5]. This prompted his resignation only after 3 months in office. The PDP soon withdrew from the government over the Sor Por Kor 4-01 land reform corruption scandal, causing the government of Chuan Leekpai to collapse[8][9].
Leadership and Collapse of the PDP (1995-1996)
Chamlong Srimuang, then the leader of the PDP, retired from politics and positioned Thaksin as its new leader. After the 1995 election, the PDP joined the government under Banharn Silpa-acha and Thaksin was appointed Deputy Prime Minister in charge of Bangkok traffic. The PDP pulled out of the Banharn-government in August 1996 and gave evidence pointing to allegations of the government’s corruption in a subsequent no-confidence debate. Soon afterwards, Banharn dissolved Parliament in September 1996.
Thaksin announced that he would not run in the subsequent November 1996 elections, but would remain as leader of the PDP. Some speculated that Thaksin wanted to resign from the party leadership [17][18]. The PDP suffered a fatal defeat in the elections, prompting resignation of most party members including Thaksin. Currently the PDP is still in existence but remained insignificant in the political arena.
- I believe the internal divisions in the PDP (which preceeded Thaksin's entry into politics and continued while he was PDP leader), as well as the frustrations he saw as leader of the PDP, had a big role in his current-day style of political management. The PDP failed because its internal divisions got in the way of developing and implementing a clear policy agenda; whereas the TRT centralizes many functions and any internal factional divisions (with the Wang Nam Yen faction, for instance) have not had any manjor impact on its overall policy agenda. Without describing in greater detail the challenges he faced as PDP leader, this evolution in styles of political management can not be seen. Patiwat 08:36, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Asian Financial Crisis (1997)
On 15 August 1997, Thaksin was invited to become Deputy Prime Minister in Chavalit Yongchaiyudh's government after the Thai Baht was devalued in 2 July 1997, sparking the Asian Financial Crisis. During an unsuccessful censure debate on 27 September 1997, Democrat MP Suthep Thaugsuban accused Thaksin of cashing in on insider information about the government's decision to float the baht[20]. Nevertheless, skeptics pointed out that Thaksin's business empire suffered much less from the devaluation than rival companies.[24] He held this position for only 3 months before Chavalit dissolved the parliament in November that same year.
Thai Rak Thai Party and Rise to Power (1998-2001)
Thaksin founded the Thai Rak Thai ("Thais Love Thais" - TRT) party in 1998 advocating a populist platform. After the fall of the Chuan-government in 2001, the TRT won a sweeping victory in the January 2001 elections. It was the first time in Thai democratic history that a single party had won a governing mandate.
Prime Minister of Thailand (2001-Present?)
As Prime Minister, Thaksin Shinawatra initiated many distinctive policies affecting the economy, public health, education, energy, drugs, and international relations. Some view his policies as being very effective and popular with the majority of the Thai people, resulting in two landslide re-election victories. However, his government have been plagued with allegations of dictatorship, demagogy, corruption, conflicts of interest, human rights offences, acting undiplomatically, and use of legal loopholes.
Economic and health policies
See also: Policies of the Thaksin government#Economic and health policies
See also: Thaksinomics
Thaksin's government has designed its policies to appeal to the impoverished majority, together called Thaksinomics, Many feel that these populist policies are responsible for bringing about Thailand's economic recovery from the 1997 Asian Financial Crisis. Critics, however, charged that Thaksinomics is little more than a Keynesian-style economic stimulus policy re-branded as something new and revolutionary.
Anti-drug policies
See also: Policies of the Thaksin government#Anti-drug policies
Narcotics have been perceived as a problem of grave importance in Thailand and, in response, Thaksin initiated a series of effective but highly controversial policies aimed to eradicate drugs in 3 months. The policy advocated ruthless implementation and over the next seven weeks press reports indicate that around 2,700 people were killed. However, the Government claimed that only around 50 of the deaths were at the hands of the police in self-defense. Human rights critics say a much larger proportion were targets of extrajudicial execution. After a growing international concern the killings became more infrequent. Thaksin's popularity increased substantially despite some public revulsion and Thailand was from the list of major drug-transit or major drug-producing countries in September, 2004[36]. However, the overall success of the policy is still being contested.
- This doesn't mention any other anti-drug policies. It wouldn't be appropriate to give the impression that Thaksin's only anti-drug effort was his "ruthless" program. Several other policies were implemented (e.g., White schools, border closures, etc.) - they just weren't effective. Thaksin didn't take a knife to drug-dealers because it was the only thing he could think of, but because nothing else was working.
Education policies
See also: Policies of the Thaksin government#Education policies
Thaksin implemented a series of revolutionary but highly controversial series of educational reforms during his government. Chief among those reforms was school decentralization which met with massive widespread opposition from Thailand's 700,000 teachers, who would be deprived of their status as civil servants[38]. There was also widespread fear from teachers that TAOs lack the skills and capabilities required to manage schools. In the face of massive teacher protests and threats of school closure[39], Thaksin compromised and gave teachers affected teachers two years to transfer to other schools. The issue was extremely controversial.
Thaksin also reformed the state university screening system by putting more emphasis on senior high-school grades in stead of the national university entrance examination scores. This change was strongly attacked by many, especially in the academic circle[41]. He also initiated the Income Contingency Loan program to make student loans available for vocational and university education.
- The potential benefits of educational decentralization have been proposed for decades among academics, but isn't mentioned at all. Given this issue was so controversial, the reader is left with the question of why Thaksin even pushed the policy in the first place if it was so unpopular with teachers. Patiwat 19:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thaksin's heavy investments in education were one of his most popular policies - that is why the Opposition is so angry with his recent plan to dish out more scholarships in the election interegnum. The nature of his investments in education should be given more detail.
Energy policies
Thaksin speculated that partially privatized, largely self-regulated monopoly utilities would work as economic powerhouses, providing profits to the treasury and private investors alike. This led to his privatization policies being strongly criticized on grounds that they offer little protection to consumers and ample opportunities for conflicts of interest. On September 2001, the National Energy Policy Office (NEPO) approved the partial listing of PTT, the state-owned oil and gas company[43]. PTT became the largest company by market capitalization upon listing in the Stock Exchange of Thailand (SET) and greatly benefited from the global increase in world-wide oil prices. However, anti-Thaksin critics have claimed that PTT's bull run was due to manipulation by Thaksin[44]. There were also allegations that the majority of the PTT shares for sale had been reserved for politicians.
Thaksin has also repeatedly attempted to privatize the Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand (EGAT). One of the goals of the privatization was to raise THB 42 billion from an IPO and use the funds to invest in three new natural-gas powered power plants. However, EGAT's privatization was abruptly delayed when some NGOs and some Union members filed a petition with the Supreme Court a few days before the scheduled listing[46]. On 23 March 2006, the Supreme Administrative Court ruled against the privatization of EGAT PLC, citing conflicts of interest, public hearing irregularities, and the continued right of expropriating public land[47][48]. The ruling led to union leaders and anti-Thaksin protestors calling for the renationalization of other previously privatized state enterprises[50][51].
Southern Thailand Insurgency
See also: South Thailand insurgency
A resurgence in violence began in 2001 in the three southern provinces of Thailand. There is much controversy about the causes of this escalation of the decades long insurgency. Attacks after 2001 concentrated on police, the military, and schools, but civilians have also been targets. Thaksin has been widely criticized for his management of the situation, in particular the storming of the Krue Se Mosque, the deaths of civilians at Tak Bai, and the unsolved kidnapping of Muslim-lawyer Somchai Neelapaijit. In March 2005, Thaksin established the National Reconciliation Commission, chaired by respected former Prime Minister Anand Panyarachun to oversee efforts to bring peace to the troubled South. The Commission has yet to submit a final report on the situation.
Foreign Policies
On foreign policy, Thaksin has said that "Thailand requires a progressive foreign policy that firmly supports its domestic counterpart"[60], forcing diplomats to endorse domestic economic programs. This policy has been fiercely attacked by various prominent career diplomats, calling it "demeaning" and did little to enhance Thailand's global stature[61].
Thaksin has also initiated negotiations for several free trade agreements (FTA) with China, Australia, Bahrain, India, and the USA that came under criticism[62]. In a highly controversial move, Thailand joined George W. Bush's multinational coalition in the invasion of Iraq, sending a 423-strong humanitarian contingent. It withdrew the last of its troops on 10 September 2004. Thaksin has also announced that Thailand would forsake foreign aid, and work with donor countries to assist in the development of neighbors, especially in the Greater Mekong Sub-region[63].
- Never before has the foreign policy of a standing Thai Prime Minister been as fierce a target for criticism among diplomats as Thaksin's. The Jayanamas and Kasit Pirom were the elite of Thai diplomacy; yet their public attacks were distinctly undiplomatic. What provoked them to such passion? It wasn't just the FTAs and supporting GWB. The summarized version you've suggested doesn't give any insight at all to the causes of the fierce struggle going on in Thai foreign relations. Patiwat 19:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Other criticisms
There have also been complaints that Thaksin has been stacking the civil service and independent commissions with his relatives and business associates [70] [71] [72][73]. He was also accused of lobbying to remove Lady Jaruvan Maintaka from the position of Auditor General[74].
Respected former Thai ambassador to the UN Asda Jayanama has claimed that Thaksin's two state visits to India were made in order to negotiate a satellite deal for Shin Corporation. However, no evidence for this claim has been yet put forth.
2005 Election
He was re-elected in the February 2005 elections in spite of allegations of widespread corruption in his administration. TRT won a landslide victory, with his Thai Rak Thai party sweeping 374 out of 500 seats in Parliament. The extensive publicity that Thaksin received on television in the aftermath of the Indian Ocean tsunami is cited as an important factor in this election. However, in the southern region, still being plagued by separatist insurgencies, Thaksin's party only managed to win one seat. It is also notable that the region is the area directly affected by the tsunami.
Political crisis of 2005-2006
See also: Thailand political crisis 2005-2006
Accusations by Sondhi Limthongkul
The tense political situation was catalyzed by various accusations by Sondhi Limthongkul, owner of the Phoochatkarn Daily newspaper. Sondhi started to hold almost weekly city hall forums in late 2005 to voice his charges and concerns. The gatherings were small at first but became larger gradually. The people participated also adopted the yellow color to show their allegiance to HMS King Bhumibol Adulyadej.
Sale of Shin Corporation
Main article :Thaksin Shinawatra $1.88 billion deal controversy
On Monday, January 23, 2006, three days after new Thai Telecommunication Act (2006) passed on Friday January 20, the Shinawatra family sold their entire stake in Shin Corporation to Temasek Holdings. The family netted about 73 billion baht (about US$1.88 billion) tax-free from the sale, exploiting a regulation that individuals (as opposed to corporations) who sell shares on the stock exchange pay no capital gains tax.
The Thailand Securities and Exchange Commission investigated the transaction and found that Thaksin's son, Panthongtae, violated rules with regard to information disclosure and public tender offers in transactions between 2000 and 2002[81]. Panthongtae was fined 6 million THB (about 150,000USD) [82]. The SEC moved to clear Thaksin of the charges pertaining to the deal. The transaction made the Thaksin the target of accusations that he sold an asset of national importance to a foreign entity[84][85]. Supporters, however, counter that the complete sale of Shin Corporation by the Shinawatra-Damapong families had been a long-standing demand of some public groups[88], as it would allow Thaksin to undertake his duties as Prime Minister without accusations of conflicts of interest.
House Dissolution
Thaksin announced a House dissolution on 24 February 2006, in a bid to end the political crisis triggered by the sale of Shin Corporation. General elections were scheduled for 2 April. Thaksin was widely criticized for calling the snap elections [108]. The opposition Democrat, Chart Thai and Mahachon parties announced a boycott of the election on 27 February. [107]."
Formation of the PAD
Thaksin, as an interim prime minister faced growing pressure to resign and in mid-February 2006 anti-Thaksin protestors formed the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) and mobilized the first organized group of protestors since 1992. The PAD drew a large number of middle-class residents of the capital. Sondhi Limthongkul was a prominent leader of the protests. The group also included prominent socialites (dubbed the "Blue Blood Jet Set" by the Bangkok Post) and members of the Thai royal family[89], the Santi Asoke Buddhist sect (led by Thaksin's former mentor Chamlong Srimuang) and state enterprise employees. Protestors camped for months outside the Government House in Bangkok. The most notable demands was for Thaksin to resign from his post so that the King could appoint another interim prime minister.
A Nation Divided
The protests were divisive. The Dharmakaya Buddhist sect came out in support of Thaksin. Massive pro-Thaksin rallies were mobilized from northern and north-eastern provinces, some bringing him thousands of red roses. The most notable of these groups was “The Poor People Caravan”, riding farming vehicles to Bangkok. Overall this led to the crisis being protrayed as a conflict between the urban middle-class and the rural poor. The conflict prompted several members of King Bhumibol Adulyadej's Privy Council asked protestors to seek a peaceful resolution to the situation.
2006 Election Results
Unofficial results as of 3 April 2006 showed that the TRT received 16 million votes cast nationwide, with 10 million abstentions and invalid ballots, but with the abstention ("no-vote") option outweighing TRT support in many constituencies in the capital and the South. Thaksin had earlier promised to not accept the premiership if TRT received less than half of the total vote[99]. After an audience with King Bhumipol, Thaksin announced on April 4, 2006 that he would not accept the post of Prime Minister after the Parliament reconvenes despite getting more than half the votes. Thaksin positioned himself as Caretaker Prime Minister but delegated his functions to Caretaker Deputy Prime Minister Chidchai Wannasathit. [111] [112][113]
This election also resulted in the fact that while the TRT Party have the majority in the Govenment, it was unable to form a government because some parliamentary seats remained unfilled due to not enough votes for ratification. The Election Commission held by-elections in 40 constituencies[93] on April 23[94]. Some of the seats still remained empty. The Election Commission scheduled yet another by-election on 29 April but was halted by the Constitution Court.
Royal Intervention
The King gave a speech on 26 April to newly appointed judges of the Thai Supreme Court stating that a royal appointment of an unelected prime minister would be undemocratic. He asked the court to handle the existing conflicts. On 8 May 2006, the Constitution Court ruled 8-6 to invalidate the April election and ordered a new election to be held. The Court also demanded the resignation of the Election Commissioners. The Law Society of Thailand filed a suit with the Supreme Administrative Court stating that Thaksin's transfer of power to Chidchai was illegal[118].
Balance
I´m not sure that this article is as balanced as it could be. I have removed references to "unabashed populism" and keynesian fiscal "pump-priming" (although in the first case I´m not sure that my new text is completely balanced itself). However I still have a feeling that the article is more negative about Thaksin than it should be. I can´t put my finger on it though and of course one can never properly distinuish between reality and ones subjective perspective. Obviously the whole issue is very controversial with protests centred along class lines so it is difficult to find the balance. I think it needs people with fresh eyes to look it over. what do others think? Pugsworth 12:13, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that "unabashedly populist" doesn't sound very neutral (it seems to suggest that populism is something that people should have to apologize for). But replacing it with "designed its policies to appeal to the impoverished majority" seems a bit, well, unbalanced as well. Thailand has a lot of poor people, but only 20% were below the poverty line before Thaksin became PM (~10% after). And policies like universal healthcare and killing all the drug dealers weren't aimed specifically at the poor - they were aimed at the majority, period. How about simply "populist" with a link to the wikipedia article on populism. Any controversies about the validity of populism as an economic/political platform can be more specifically addressed in the article on populism. Any question about the details of the populist policies themselves are dealt with in the article body. Patiwat 17:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
- To me even the label ´populist´ by itself still carries a negative connotation, due to the fact that it is often used to critise political opponents. I think the link to wikipedia´s populism article is helpful but don´t feel it entirely resolves the problem. The question for me is who is applying this label? I don´t think the term is neutral enough for wikipedia to use without a reference. Has Thaksin applied the term to himself? if so, then say so, this would be the best solution. If not then I think the term should be appear attributed to his critics in the relevant paragraph. I´ve just noticed the term also appears two paragraphs down "The Nation newspaper called Thaksin's populist platform "a revolution in Thai public policy"[32]." again not attributed elsewhere and appears to be entirely unnecessary in this context. If the policies were aimed the majority, period, then remove the word ´impoverished´ this leaves the same meaning without the value judgement. PS sorry if the unilateral editing goes against protocol, I´m new to all this. Pugsworth 12:21, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- An earlier paragraph begins "Critics, however, charge that Thaksinomics is little more than a Keynesian-style economic stimulus policy re-branded as something new and revolutionary." For balance, it should be noted that a reputable newspaper did call Thaksin's policies revolutionary. Whether it was revolutionary or not, I don't know. But some people think it is - and some don't. And Wikipedia needs to aknowledge both. Patiwat 20:09, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I haven't been able to sort through a lot of old campaign material to see if Thaksin/TRT called its own policy platform "populist". It should be noted, however, that it isn't just The Nation calling Thaksin populist. Reputable sources world-wide having been calling him that. Just try googling "Thaksin populist" and see how many websites you get. Patiwat 05:43, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
- Could we please get some references for figures on poverty reduction. I noticed there is a reference to Thaksin's economic policies being effective in poverty reduction in the body without any reference. I'm not challenging the effectiveness of Thaksin's policies, but a 10% poverty rate (which Patiwat mentions) is too low, as that figure would put Thailand on par with advanced industrialized countries! Tettyan 14:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- I referenced a Sydney Morning Herald article. The footnote is right there (no. 29); I'm not sure why you can't see it. That statistics has also been noted by the Council for Foreign Relations (http://www.cfr.org/publication/10315/) and the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/cfr/world/slot2_040206.html). Patiwat 20:16, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- From the World Bank report by Dr. Kirida Bhaopichitr: "Incidence of poverty in terms of headcount has fallen from 21.3 percent in 2000 (14.2 percent in 2000 based on the old poverty line) to 11.3 percent in 2004. This decline was mainly contributed by the reduction in the number of poor in the Northeast."[1] This seemed a bit too wordy for the article (and there are many complaints that the article is too long), so I shortened it down. Patiwat 20:33, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- That doesn't seem necessarily implausible. Criteria for defining 'poverty' vary, but are often relative- that used in the UK, IIRC, is half the average income. It's quite possible that since the average income in Thailand is low, only 10% of the population have half (or some other percentage) of that. HenryFlower 14:39, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- Interesting. I'm more familiar with absolute definitions of poverty. In the US, I believe the poverty line is defined against a consuption basket that is assumed to be able to feed a family of four. Especially since Thailand is a poor country, it makes far more sense to define poverty on absolute terms. Also, for poverty to fall using the relative definition, it would require a fall in income inequility, and from what I understand, income inequality has not decreased in Thailand during the last five years. Tettyan 15:09, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- Not really. It is not without reason that Thaksin is called a populist. From the World Bank report, the Gini coefficient of income inequality fell from 2000 (last year of Chuan 2). We're almost, but not quite, back to where we were at the end of Chuan 1! The article is long enough, as many have noted. Do you think Thaksin's reduction of income inequality is important enough to deserve mention in the article? Patiwat 20:47, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- Back in college, I was told that Thailand officially defined poverty as the minimum income required to purchase a basket of goods and services, among them a 2000 calorie/day diet. I'm not sure what standardized definition the World Bank used in their statistics, or whether they use the Thai definition, or whether the Thai definition has been refined over the years. Patiwat 20:22, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- Even as a trained economist, I've always found the term "pump priming" term strange. It sounds so esoteric; by intellectual economists, for intellectual economists. The new edit turns this into "Keynesian fiscal policy", which also has its issues. The 2 links aren't that informative, and it doesn't tell someone who doesn't know economics what the policy is all about. Why not call it "Keynesian-style economic stimulus policy" with a link to the article on Keynesian active fiscal economic policy. Patiwat 17:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
- Your suggested wording here is good I´ve put it in, however it does lead us to the problem that describing something as Keynesian or keynesian in disguise is not a criticism in itself unless you assume the value judgement that keynesianism is a bad policy - presumably not a position that wikipedia would take. Thus I think we need something to say why critics thought keynesianism was bad in this context.
- Also I think the 4th paragraph in this section about the cabinets recent decison to susend the THB investment is irrelevant in an artcile about Thaksin and given the length of this article should be deleted or moved elsewhere.Pugsworth 12:33, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- I included that paragraph to add some balance to the critique of Thaksin's economic policies. Critics (namely TDRI economist Somchai Jitsuchon) have claimed that Thaksin's economic policies had a marginal impact on the economy. But after a key Thaksin economic policy was suspended, economists have significantly dropped their growth estimates - implying that Thaksin's policies had a significant impact on the economy. Patiwat 20:02, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Length of article
I've done a check and discovered that this is the 4th-longest article on a national leader of any at the English Wikipedia. Only Bush, Blair and Berlusconi have longer articles. This article is longer than those for Chirac, Hu Jintao, Putin, Merkel or Koizumi. With all due respect to Thailand, I don't think any one would argue that it is the 4th most important country in the world, or Thaksin a more important figure than Hu Jintao or Putin. The reason this article is so long is that Patiwat keeps writing more and more and more material. At my urging we have already created two spin-off articles, Policies of the Thaksin government and Thailand political crisis 2005-2006. If these three articles are taken together, there is probably more material at Wikipedia about Thaksin than about any current national leader except Bush. Yet still the article keeps growing. I admire Patiwat's industry, but this article is now as big as it needs to be, and Patiwat should stop writing more and more detailed coverage of Thaksin's policies in every conceivable area. Adam 10:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- I think maybe we should all focus on expanding the branch articles, and possible establishing some more new ones. From the history of this entry, I know several administrators do watch this entry on a regular basis. Any of them would like to weigh in on this matter? Tettyan 14:21, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- Frankly, I do not think that Thailand's importance in the world has any relevance to how long the article is. Thaksin, through his policies and his actions, has been one of the most controversial Prime Ministers in Thai history. A controversial topic requires factual support for all key sides of the argument - and this requires material. I've already made several attempts to shorten things down significantly. If an abler editor is able to summarize this material in a more concise manner, while still retaining factuality and neutrality, then please go ahead. Be bold! Furthermore, Thaksin's career is a current event. Some of these events might be of historical importance, some not - but in the thick of things, it is pretty darn hard to judge. Right now, Thaksin is at a critical stage in his political career. Nobody is really sure what is going to happen 6 months from now on. In this situation, I've always felt it more important to err on the side of being factual and informative, rather than being brief and high-level. Things can always be moved or removed or edited if history or discussion among the editors deems that it is not relevant. Patiwat 21:17, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- I'll be bold and say the article is not long enough. There are several topics which, in my opinion, absolutely need expansion.
- Corruption. The article contains many weasely second-hand allegations of corruption, but I see no hard facts, clear examples, or reputable citations. What about C-130? What about the airport?
- Stacking independent comissions with his people. Again, second-hand allegations of this are noted in the article, but the only example given is Chaiyasit Shinawatra. What about Khunying Charuwan? What about the Constitution Court? What about the EC?
- I've finally added 2 sentences mentioning the Khunying Jaruvan controversy, as well as a link to her article. The reason this is mentioned at all is to substantiate the "complaints that Thaksin has been stacking the civil service and independent commissions with his buddies" criticism. I hope this doesn't make the article too long. Patiwat 03:00, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Anti-drug policy
I translated the parts of the King's 2003 birthday speech where he praised Thaksin's anti-drug campaign, the one that lots of people complain about. The King speech is obviously unscripted and quite tough to translate. I'm sure that some people will read my translation and go "What! The King is praising Thaksin?!?!?!" and then go "This translation has got to be wrong, translated by some Thaksin-flunky for sure". Well, I took the official Thai translation from the Kanchanapisek website (the citation is in the article), so I'll let any editor who thinks he has a better translation offer it here. Patiwat 11:39, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not disputing the transalation. I know you take a policy of including as much information here as possible. I'm just a bit uncomfortable with any attempt to read HM's intentions on political matters. That goes not just for this, but also the many interpretations in the media of HM's 2001 speech (interpreted to be not too flattering to Thaksin) or of his latest speech last December about how "The King can do no wrong" (also interpreted by many as a slap in the face to Thaksin). If consensus is in favor of keeping this reference, then so be it, but as I understand it, any attempt to attribute a political position to the palace risks being in violation of Thai lese majeste laws (yes, Sondhi himself has done this way too many times). I appreciate your efforts to Be Bold! - on the other hand, I personally prefer to err on the side of caution. Regards, Tettyan 12:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- I hear where you're coming from. I have personally hated any attempts to involve the monarchy in Thai politics, because they are almost always self-serving. And because the King's speeches are usually so stream-of-conciousness and filled with teasing, sarcasm, and veiled references that it is hard to discern any clear intent. But in 2003 regarding drugs, I believe his intent was crystal clear. "ไอ้การชัยชนะของการปราบไอ้ยาเสพติดนี่ ดีที่ปราบ แล้วก็ที่เขาตำหนิบอกว่า เอ้ย คนตาย ตั้ง ๒,๕๐๐ คน อะไรนั่น เรื่องเล็ก" (As for the victory of suppression of drugs, the suppression was good. And those who have criticized 'hey, the 2,500 dead people', whatever, that's a small thing). He goes on to emphasize (he even tells everybody to jot it down!) how how every year more than 2,500 people die due to drug-related violence, and ask why nobody has ever counted those deaths. He goes on and on about this in his own style. Read the transcript at http://kanchanapisek.or.th/speeches/2003/1204.th.html. This is clearly praise, no interpretation or political guesswork needed. It seems pretty black and white to me, and when the most respected and powerful man in the country praises one of Thaksin's most controversial policies, I think it is worthy to include that praise in the article. Patiwat 20:06, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- Interesting. I usually try staying tight-lipped about my opinions of HM's speeches, but my feeling was that HM wasn't trying to belittle (or condone) the deaths in the drug war. As I recall, he also pointed out later in the same speech that people were killed for a number of causues; that it's not correct to blame it entirely on Thaksin, but that some authorities should also be held responsible. I remember that the police ordered an investigation to account for all the killings [2] as a result of what HM said here: ที่ทางราชการจะรับผิดชอบ ก็อาจจะมีจำนวนหนึ่ง ก็ลองถามทางผู้บัญชาการตำรวจแห่งชาติ ไปแยก จำแนกเป็นเท่าไร. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Regards, Tettyan 01:57, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- That is a reasonable interpretation, given the half-veiled way the King communicates some times. But overall, I don't see how anybody could interpret the King as anything less than praising of Thaksin in the overall narcotics front. Patiwat 23:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
- For the benefit of other users, here is the expanded text of the portion of the King's speech I quote above, plus a translation from The Nation:
- "ที่ทางราชการจะรับผิดชอบ ก็อาจจะมีจำนวนหนึ่ง ก็ลองถามทางผู้บัญชาการตำรวจแห่งชาติ ไปแยก จำแนกเป็นเท่าไร ก็เชื่อว่าใน ๒,๕๐๐ นี่ มากที่เขาฆ่ากันเอง แล้วก็ความผิดของเขา มาโยนความผิดให้ท่านซูเปอร์นายกฯ
- ไม่รู้ล่ะก็นายกฯ สั่งให้รองนายกฯ รองนายกฯ ก็เป็นซีอีโอ แต่นายกฯ ก็เป็นซีอีโอ ซูเปอร์นายกฯ ก็โยนให้ เพราะว่าบอกว่าเป็นผู้ชนะ ผู้ชนะกลายเป็นฆ่าหมดเลย ต้องรับผิดชอบฆ่า แต่แท้จริงลูกน้องก็ต้องรับผิดชอบ คือ ที่เข้าใจ ซีอีโอไม่รับผิดชอบอะไรเลย ต้องให้รองนายกฯ รับผิดชอบ และต้องมี ๗ คนด้วย รองนายกฯ ๗ คน คือผู้รับผิดชอบ แล้วรองนายกฯ ๗ คน เขารับผิดชอบ เขาก็ผลักให้พวกปลัดกระทรวง ให้พวกรัฐมนตรีก่อน พวกรัฐมนตรีบอกไม่รับผิดชอบ ต้องรัฐมนตรีช่วยว่าการ รัฐมนตรีช่วยว่าการก็ไม่รับผิดชอบ ต้องเป็นผู้ช่วยรัฐมนตรี ผู้ช่วยรัฐมนตรีก็บอกว่า ปลัดนั่นต้องรับผิดชอบ
- นายกฯ บอก แล้วปลัดไม่ต้องรับผิดชอบอะไร ไม่ต้องทำอะไร รองปลัดก็รับผิดชอบหมด รองปลัดบอกมีอธิบดี อย่างนี้เป็นการบอกว่า ไม่รับผิดชอบ ไม่มีใครรับผิดชอบเลย ลงท้ายใครรับผิดชอบ ประชาชนซีอีโอ ประชาชนซีอีโอทุกคน รับผิดชอบหมด ไม่จะทำอย่างไร คือการปกครองสมัยนี้แปลกดี กลับไปเหมือนอย่างเก่า กฎหมายประชาชนรับผิดชอบหมด ตอนนี้คนที่เดือดร้อนคือข้าพเจ้าเอง เดือดร้อน ท่านรองนายกฯ มาบอกว่า ทรงเป็นซูเปอร์ซีอีโอ แล้วใช้คำอะไร จำไม่ได้แล้ว"
- "Who is going to take responsibility? Some say the prime minister has to be held accountable after the war he led resulted in 2,500 deaths. But the deaths are attributed to many causes. Some are killings among traffickers; some [of the dead] may have been killed by the authorities. I suggest that the national police chief disclose the details of how the 2,500 deaths happened. Killings among traffickers are not the government's responsibility. It is not fair to blame the entire death toll on the "super-prime minister". The prime minister has delegated the task to his deputies. He says he is the victor in the war. It is said he should take responsibility for the killings. But his subordinates should share the blame. The prime minister's seven deputies have also delegated their tasks to ministers and cannot be held accountable. The ministers, in turn, have done the same by passing on responsibility to subordinates and so on down the chain of command to deputy ministers, vice ministers, and permanent secretaries until the passing of responsibility finally reaches the CEOs and, at last, the people. But the people may turn the tables and dump everything on me."[3] Tettyan 01:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
- Again, we could go on-and-on about this, given the nature of HM's speeches. Again, I personally rather not include his statements in this article, but if we must keep it, then I will add a qualifier stating that HM did ask for the death toll in the "war on drugs" to be explained. HM almost always equivocates or qualifies his declarative statements in some way, and I believe this case is no exception. Regards, Tettyan 01:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
- That was a very loose translation, but then again, the original was quite loose in style as well. As for the article, I believe that inclusion of the King's praise, with disclaimers as suggested by Tettyan, is important. Thaksin has been loudly accused of human rights offenses by his opponents as well as the international community (mostly for Tak Bai but for the narcotics supression drive as well). Yet the narcotics supression drive remains one of his most popular policies domestically. The King's praise is a concrete gauge to this popularity. The King's praise was not unqualified though, and his concerns about the dead reflect the doubt that some Thais feel about the human costs of this most controversial of policies. Tettyan, could you suggest a translation for the King's qualifier that the death toll be explained? The thing is, he doesn't just say it, but goes on-and-on almost but not really suggesting it. Patiwat 20:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
- A minor point that might shed some light on the King's 2003 comments: the King really hates drugs! Some quotes from his 2002 speech: "ก็ต้องขอบใจที่ได้กล่าวถึงกิจการที่ได้ทำมาตลอด มีสิ่งหนึ่งที่ท่านยังไม่ได้กล่าวถึงและก็เป็นสิ่งที่เป็นความเดือดร้อนของชาติบ้านเมือง มาเป็นเวลานานประมาณ ๕๐ ปี ซึ่งเป็นเรื่องของยาเสพติด ซึ่งยาเสพติดนั้นมีมาก่อนเป็นเวลานาน แต่เป็นยาเสพติดที่ไม่รุนแรงมากนัก คือ ที่เขาสู้กันเรื่องฝิ่น...." (My translation): "(Gives thanks to all the people who have wished him well on his projects and stuff)... There is one thing that you haven’t mentioned and that has caused harm on the country for about fifty years. That is narcotics. Narcotics have existed for a long time, but was the kind of narcotic that wasn’t very violent, which was opium...." He goes on and on and on about how bad opion is, how it led farang to invade China, how heroin and other narcotics made Thai people crazy, how high the social costs are, how evil drugs are, etc. Read it for yourself at http://kanchanapisek.or.th/speeches/2002/1204.th.html. The key point of trivia: this preceeded Thaksin's "ruthless" suppression campaign by 3 months. When the King talks, people listen! Patiwat 21:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
- Here's what I would like to add: "However, His Majesty did express concern about reports of extra-judicial killings, adding 'some [of the dead] may have been killed by the authorities. I suggest that the national police chief disclose the details of how the 2,500 deaths happened.'[4]" Any objections? Tettyan 10:27, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- Sounds alright, I guess. But then it should be noted that after the King's speech, National Police Chief Sant Sarutanond did order an investigation, as requested by the King. The result: the police revised down the drug-related toll to 1329, of which 72 were extra-judicial killings by the police. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3334169.stm. Seems aggressively low, but the Police did it at a direct order from the King, so either they truly believe in the revised figure, or they weren't taking the King's order seriously... Patiwat 22:40, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Note that while we've been discussing this, an anonymous editor has gone ahead and added an interpretation of the King's praise, calling it "ambiguous" and literally putting words and assumptions into the Royal mouth. I'm reading the King's speech again, and besides the points that we've discussed above, I don't see how the praise was ambiguous. That same editor also added a bunch of unreferenced "facts", figures, and quotes to the article. I have noted the need for citations, and will remove this stuff if no citations show up. Patiwat 22:46, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- "Ambiguous praise" are definitely not the words I would use (what does it mean anyway?). I'm still thinking of what would sound better, but can't right now. Also, I remember reading about that investigation the police conducted as a result of the King's speech. I'm still trying to decide what to make of it. Is there any quote from the National Human Rights Commission or other group that opposed the anti-drug campaign that comments on the report? For now, anyways, I'll go ahead and the change I proposed above. Regards, Tettyan 01:54, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
- The Police investigation, in response to the King's order, is the BBC link given above. Patiwat 02:03, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
An enthusiastic anonymous editor (he same one who rewrote the sub-section on the King) has claimed that Thaksin promised to "rid every inch of the country" of meth in 3 months, without citing where that particular phrase comes from. I've done a search on Google for ("rid every inch of the country" Thaksin) and found nothing. I therefore assume that Thaksin never actually said those words, and that the editor was putting those words in his mouth. The sentence has been reverted to its original form. Patiwat 02:30, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
- The enthusiastic anonymous editor claimed that most of the people killed during the anti-drug campaign were poor, and that only a minute portion of "kingpins" were arrested. This is unreferenced, of course, but if true, deserves to be in included in the article. I have been unable to find a reference for it. Could someone please look in to this? I really don't want to delete the entire sentence, because if it is true, it is a valid criticism of the campaign. Patiwat 21:11, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- The same anonymous editor claimed that the campaign increased the price of drugs but did not reduce the availability of drugs. The second part, about not affecting the availability of drugs would be a very valid criticism of the campaign, but the claim is unreferenced. This sentence isn't biased (unless if the anonymous editor made the fact up). But I can't find any sources that claimed that the campaign didn't reduce drug availability. Could someone please help research this and make the edit? Patiwat 21:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Tettyan, the ABAC poll was a good addition. Now that Thaksin has decided to get back to work, his first decision is to start another anti-drug drive. This is a obviously a political decision, aimed at increasing his popularity in an area he knows people are concerned about (as the ABAC poll attests). Do you think this deserves mention as well in the article? Patiwat 20:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Good question. I recall that even after the big "war on drugs" concluded in 2003, "second phases" and "third phases" were announced later, but I don't remember to them amounting to much. I guess it's a habit of governments to announce things that they don't bother to follow up on (or they do, but it's the media that don't follow up). It's not clear yet what the latest announcement of another crackdown will amount to. Until then, I'd hold off just for now on mentioning that here. Regards, Tettyan 01:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- While we're on the topic, any response to the anonymous editor's suggested shortening of the drug section (among other sections)? Given it was such a high profile topic, I'm not sure a shortening is neccesary. The anon editor has made the suggestion in good faith, but I don't see anybody responding to it yet. Patiwat 10:06, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'm probably not the best person to opine on this matter, since I also invested quite a bit of time in contributing to this section. However, I believe it would make little sense to shrink this section while keeping the rest of the "policies" section intact. The entire "policies" section should be relooked and shortened as a whole, while the details can remain in the Policies of the Thaksin government entry. The anonymous editors' suggestions may be a good place to start, but they need some work. Regards Tettyan 10:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Composition of anti-Thaksin crowds (and other enthusiastic anonymous edits)
The enthusiastic anonymous editor who stormed through the article a few days ago noted that "urban upper/middle class royalist Bangkokians" made up only a small portion of the anti-Thaksin crowd, whereas I originally noted that that same group made up a large portion of the crowd. The original discussion around this original wording provoked no debate a couple months ago when I wrote it. Given all the press this received back then, can anybody actually claim that the middle-class made up a small portion of the crowd? Especially when the second paragraph notes the divisions between region/class that the whole controversy caused. The enthusiastic editor also notes that the royal family (some members of whom petitioned for Thaksin to be replaced by the King) was "vast". Well, yeah, but so what? Is the vastness of the royal family really relevant? The King's position was made clear in his speech. Patiwat 03:21, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Speaking of which, those entire two paragraphs is now a mess, full of mis-spellings, bad grammar, no citations, factual inconsisencies, and a POV that is not very neutral. I want to respect the collaborative nature of wikipedia, but part of me just wants to revert that entire section. Patiwat 03:21, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Article needs clean-up and NPOV review
The enthusiastic anonymous editor (IP: 58.136.100.43) from a couple days ago made many edits that hurt the NPOV and quality standards of Wikipedia. Too many spelling mistakes to count, long run-on sentences, clearly partisan tone, and no citations for any of the "facts" contributed. And not a single explanation for why he made the edits the way he did. I don't want to do a full revert, since that isn't very constructive either, so I'll let the other editors chip in and either make piece-meal changes or alternative suggestions. Patiwat 03:32, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
- This is getting quite absurd. Anonymous editors have made substantial changes to the NPOV of the article. The King's praise of Thaksin's anti-drug policy has been erased, and replaced with criticism taken out of context. Mention that drug use in schools declined has also been erased. New "facts" have been added without citation, e.g., "anti-Thaksin protestors consisted mostly of academics and intellectuals". Facts are phrased in a loaded way, e.g., "Thaksin's overwhelming support in the poor Northeastern provinces and his own hometown of Chiang Mai and nearby areas". Words have been put into people's mouths that they never uttered, e.g., Thaksin never said he would "rid every inch of the country" of drugs. Patiwat 04:14, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
- I suggest the anonymous editor explain his/her reasons behind the changes made. Perhaps we should leave a note on the IP user's talk page, giving him up to two days to explain his changes. If there is no answer, I believe that all the changes should be reversed. Are there any administrators watching this page? Tettyan 04:29, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
- Multiple IP addresses are behind it. I've left a message on one of them. I don't consider it vandalism; just an enthusiastic Thaksin-hater who doesn't understand Wikipedia norms. The darn thing is, I do not want to revert all of his/her changes. Amid all the POV, faked quotes, and unreferenced opinions, he/she makes some assertions that, if properly backed up, should belong in the article. Patiwat 06:59, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that the multiple IP addresses obviously prove the number of individuals opposed to your words, in which case, your statement about a small minority opposing Thaksin could also be disputed. I think that your article is a little biased. The parts about Sonthi's arguments, for example, you used a lit of descriptive words that seem to suggest that Sonthi has exagerated a lot of things. Fair enough, but since this is a formal article, you must take an objective view. Many people from many different countries will be reading this article, it is not fair that you voice your opinion as fact for millions of people and then get "huffy" when your statements are oppposed.
- I frankly don't see where I've suggested that Sondhi exagerated a lot of things, but if you do, please go ahead and edit it to make it look more formal. It isn't really related to the unreferenced, low-quality, and clearly biased edits made in the past week. Two wrongs don't make a right. Patiwat 20:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The Background to the "Anti-Thaksin and pro-Thaksin rallies" section begins by claiming (without reference) that most of the protestors were academics, intellectuals, and middle class. The final paragraph of that section claims "The chief source of controversy has been Thaksin's overwhelming support in the poor Northeastern provinces and his own hometown of Chiang Mai and nearby areas, leading to the crisis being protrayed as a conflict between the urban middle class and the rural poor." This just sounds weird, weasely, and a bit loaded too. If there was a political conflict between rural Thailand and the urban middle-class, then just say so. But this is not the case. I've only been able to find reference that say "Social instability could easily turn into class conflict pitting the pro-Thaksin rural poor against the anti-Thaksin urban rich" or "Violent class conflict is not impossible in Thailand". I'd prefer to let the facts speek for themselves, and delete this paragraph. Patiwat 21:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I have done some cleanup of the article and will remove the POV and Factual Accuracy tag. I have retained a lot of the POV statements and inaccurate claims, because I think that some of them might valid, and will give other editors the chance to find citations. If no citations come up, I will erase or modify the claims. Patiwat 22:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Public reactions to Thaksin, post-"stepping down"
Some time ago, I had noted the strong positive public reaction to Thaksin after he announced he was not going to accept the Premiership. The reference I used was a ABAC Songkran poll which found that most people wanted to receive blessings from Thaksin compared to any other politician. While OK, equating New Years Blessings with popularity left me feeling a bit uncomfortable. A recently public poll (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/04/30/politics/politics_30002895.php) might be more appropriate. Done on April 28 (~ 3 weeks after Thaksin made his announcement) it found that 54% preferred TRT's policies, while 7% preferred the Democrats. Maybe not a perfect barometer to the public's reaction to Thaksin's announcement, but maybe better than the Sonkran poll. Any thoughts? Patiwat 03:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
- I have made the edits noted above. Patiwat 04:24, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't notice this earlier. One thing I wanted to point out was that I think Thai voters are smart enough to distinguish between a party's policies and the person of the party leader. So it's possible to support TRT's policies while disapproving of the Shin sale, Thaksin's abrasive personality and his authoritarian tendencies. The poll you cited that people want TRT's policies to continue, even if they may not think highly Thaksin's other qualities. Well, at least we know that the 55% of BKKers who voted "No" didn't do so out of love for the Democrats' policies. Regards, Tettyan 12:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
- Democrat policies? What policies? :-) Back to the topic, it was hard to try to find an ideal measure of public reaction to Thaksin's announcement. One extreme was the ABAC Songkran blessings poll, which showed that Thaksin as an leader still had overwhelming popularity (52% vs. 26% for Chuan and Abhisit combined). But using this poll has always made me cringe, mainly because non-Thais might not understand why a Songkran blessing means so much as a measure of individual respect. Admittedly, the policy poll I ended up using isn't perfect either, but I'd argue against Tettyan by saying that the TRT marketing machine has clearly positioned Thaksin as the man behind the policies. The fact that even after falling to the PAD's attacks, Thaksin as an individual and Thaksin as a policy-maker was still massively popular needs to be noted.
An anonymous editor (he left a message on my Talk page) has edited the sentence to be "A Bangkok poll taken 3 weeks after Thaksin's announcement found that TRT policies were still overwhelmingly popular in Bangkok, with 54.2% preferring TRT policies versus 7.5% for the Democrats." Now this is factually correct, but the way it is worded doesn't support the header sentence "Thaksin's announcement provoked mixed reactions among the public and the anti-Thaksin coalition." The point isn't about the TRT's policies (which weren't really affected by the political crisis), but about the popularity of Thaksin as an individual (which was clearly the target of the PAD's negative campaign). I'm thinking of reverting going back to the original data source: "Thaksin's announcement provoked mixed reactions among the public and the anti-Thaksin coalition. He remained highly popular with a large majority of the population - a poll conducted days after the announcement found that 52.9% of Bangkokians wished to receive Thai new year blessings from Thaksin, versus 26% for Democrat party leaders Chuan Leekpai and Abhisit Vejjajiva combined[5]. In Thai tradition, new year blessings are usually given by highly respected figures." Any thoughts? (p.s. Could the anonymous highly educated elite physician editor please respond here, and not on my Talk page. This isn't personal.)
- Is there a poll out there that asks what people thought of the PM's decision to step aside? If I recall correctly, people thought it was the right choice to step aside, but still want a continuation of TRT policies. Thaksin's "sacrifice" also seemed to improve his personal standing too. Perhaps the best would be "Thaksin's announcement provoked mixed reactions among the public and the anti-Thaksin coalition. On the one hand, according to X poll, people approved of Thaksin's decision to "take a break from politics". On the other hand ... [continue with what you wrote above, plus mention the poll on TRT vs Democrat policies]." Hopefully, this could satisfy everyone. What do you all think? Tettyan 07:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
- That's the problem: I don't ever recall seeing a poll that specifically asked about his choice to step aside. Nor were there polls which tested his popularity both before and after the announcement. The Songkran blessing poll and the policy poll are the only ones I could find. Please point out if there are any other results that are publically available. Patiwat 08:35, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Where "no-votes" anti-Thaksin votes?
The enthusiastic anonymous editor from a few days ago made some edits to the "Election results" section which almost but-not-quite implied that "no-votes" were anti-Thaksin votes. I think this is pretty relevant to the article: was more than half of Bangkok anti-Thaksin? That would have tremendous implications to Thaksin's political future. The results from a Suan Dusit poll on 3 April (http://www.dusitpoll.dusit.ac.th/2549/2549_021.html) point in a different direction: only 19% of people who voted "no-vote" in Bangkok did so because they didn't like the PM. Most others were confused, jaded, bored, etc. So even though Thaksin didn't clearly win in Bangkok, he certainly didn't loose it. Should this factoid be noted in the article? Patiwat 04:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
- Decidng who "wins" or "loses" a vote, beyond the mere election numbers, is a tricky exercise off which countless self-appointed political pundits make their living. Just one example off the top of my head: LBJ won the 1968 Democratic primary in New Hampshire with nearly two-thirds of the vote against anti-war candidate Eugene McCarthy. So LBJ won by the numbers, but the media declared that he "lost" to a hitherto unknown opponent known as "expected". That's right, LBJ committed the sin of not performing as well as "expected". As for Thaksin, well b/c TRT won 32 BKK seats last year but only pulled off a plurality against the "No" votes this year in nine seats, that was considered a "setback" and a "loss" for the premier. I have the feeling that if TRT won less the 20 seats in BKK last year (but still won overall in a landslide), people would not have been able to make such a big deal about it. You also have the issue of spoiled votes - the anti-Thaksin camp also considers most of those to be votes against the PM (though they have no numbers to back this up). We can discuss all the spin and the polling, I think for the sake of brevity we should just stick to posting the numbers, and that the main figure we should pay attention to is the TRT party-list share of the national vote, since Thaksin promised to resign if this figure fell below 50%. If someone really insists in going into depth analyzing the results, we can do that on the Thailand legislative election, 2006 page. Regards, Tettyan 11:01, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
- I guess that is reasonable. But the question is relevant now, more than before, because the conversion rate between "no-votes" to Democrat votes should determine the results of the next Constitution Court mandated election. Patiwat 22:33, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that "No" votes are not all Democrat votes, as people voted "No" for a variety of reasons. Many PAD supporters are also not natural Democrat supporters, so it will be interesting to see where they park their votes the next time around. Once the re-vote takes place, we'll have a clearer picture of what's been going on. Until then, I think we should be careful about including any more speculation in this article. Regards, Tettyan 01:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Everyone I knew voted no. And yes, because they felt a little apathy towards the government. Not because of Taksin himself persay but if half the country are not behind the guy then how can it work. And yes, everyone who voted no did vote it just to show their opposition to Thaksin. It is difficult for anyone to last very long in politics, look at Blair, Bush etc. It's the same story. The people will never be happy with their leader and you have to respect that. And you must also realise that a lot of the people who voted yes did so because they were bribed. Obviously, you didn't include anything about the manner of thai politics and the tendency to bribe did you? Ins't it fishy that the richest man in Thailand becomes Prime minister?
- This page isn't supposed to be for political debates. The personal feelings of you and me to Thaksin shouldn't be relevant. I'm merely saying that there exists quantitative, authoritative, and timely research that describes the motivation behind the "no-votes" in the last election. Thaksin is a politician, and politicians live-or-die based on whether people like them or not, as you noted. The research clearly suggests that most of the people who "no-voted" didn't do it because they didn't like Thaksin (unlike you and your friends). I was quite shocked at seeing this research, because I thought (like you) that the majority of "no-votes" were people who didn't like Thaksin and converted to the Democrats/PAD. This research is highly indicative of how the next election will go and will have a strong influence on Thaksin's political future. I'm repeating my point here, but even after reading Tettyan's rebuttal, I still think this research result is relevant to this article. Patiwat 21:01, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Overseas trip
The post-election overseas trip ended up not having any major political impact. I would suggest removing it at some point. Patiwat 21:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
- I concur. I don't think this is a terribly important part of his biography. Tettyan 02:07, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
- Done. At the time, the Democrats/PAD portrayed the trips as the first step of Thaksin's exile from Thailand, yet another instance of the meddlesome PM creating more work for overworked embassy staff, while offering the tantalizing potential that the foreign leaders would snub Thaksin or that overseas Thais would make a ruckus. The TRT portrayed the trips as private trips for the PM to brief foreign leaders on what exactly was happening in Thailand, and also as public demonstrations of Thaksin's still considerable baramee. It turns out that nothing much really happened, as the Thai public's focus was on the EC and the trips went off without any major hitches. Patiwat 03:06, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Picture with Mr. "Akbar"?
An anonymous editor (203.144.143.9 and 203.144.143.8) has replaced the US Department of State photo of Thaksin with an atrocious picture of Thaksin standing side-by-side holding a role with a Mr. "Akbar". The anonymous editor Rationale for the replacement is that the "Akbar" photo is a license free photo, implying that the State Dept photo is not.
1) US State Dept photos can appear on Wikipedia (as per 17 U.S.C. § 101 and § 105)
2) Akbar side-by-side with Thaksin has no business being the headline photo of the Thaksin biographical article
3) Users User:Paul 012 and User:Henry Flower have gotten into a revert war with the anonymous editor who insists on using the Akbar photo. The original Akbar revision was made on 23:23, 18 May 2006. User:Paul 012 reverted on 23:48, 18 May 2006. "Akbar" did his 1st revert on 23:58, 18 May 2006. User:Henry Flower did his 1st revert on 00:33, 19 May 2006. Akbar reverted a 2nd time on 00:36, 19 May 2006, and then a 3rd time on 06:29, 19 May 2006. I have left a warning on the 203.144.143.9's page. If 203.144.143.9 or 203.144.143.8 reverts a 4th time, could somebody please report this anonymous user for violations of the three revert rule here. Patiwat 09:11, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
For the record: An anonymous editor replaced the headline photo of the article with one which several editors thought to be inappropriate (the "Akbar" photo). This anonymous editor has, to date, made 5 reverts of the article in a period just exceeding 24 hours, all in efforts to return "Akbar" to the article. The anonymous editor has used three IP addresses, and has been given warnings on the Talk pages of all three. The anonymous editor has not responded to any attempts at discussion. One of these IP addresses was banned for 8 hours as a punitive measure.
I implore to all editors: Repeated reverts are contrary to the collaborative spirit of Wikipedia. Can't we all just get along and talk to each other? Mr. Anonymous, could you please explain why you think your picture of Thaksin standing alongside Mr. "Akbar" is more appropriate than the State Department Photo of Thaksin? I've already noted why I think the State Department photo is appropriate - but if you don't agree, please state your argument.
A warning and a question: Typical next steps in dispute resolution include Informal Mediation, Discussion with 3rd Parties, Surveys, Arbitration, and Protecting the page. However, Anonymous's refusal to discuss this issue is starting to imply that his/her edits do not represent a good-faith different point of view, but are simply vandalism. Since the vandal seems to be using multiple IP addresses, I do not believe that blocking any one of them will be effective in stopping the vandal. I would hate to Protect the Thaksin article, since this would prevent legitimate editors from improving the article. My question to the other editors is: what else can we do, besides endless reverts, to protect the integrity of the article? Patiwat 08:56, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
- Should be treated as vandalism, I think. Including protection if no other way is possible. Paul C 18:55, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
- The anonymous editor/vandal has struck again with a new IP (203.144.143.5), but this time he/she has given a rationale in his/her edit summary: "Old picture is unsuitable in the eyes of many - new one is more recent". Let me address this: just because the new photo is more recent doesn't automatically make it more appropriate. And I fail to see who the "many" people who think the old picture is unsuitable are - so far, the only "people" who have removed the old picture are all anonymous users with closely related IPs. To the "many" people who think the old picture unsuitable: make yourself known!
- p.s., To Akbar, sorry if you've been involved in this ruckus without your knowledge. You're a fine looking chap, but it is not appropriate for you to be in the headline photo of a head of government. You deserve better than to be the focus of this childish revert war. If you really want people to admire your looks, could I suggest http://www.HOTorNOT.com.
The Finland Plan/Declaration/Strategy
Rumors of the "Finland Plan/Strategy/Declaration" have been simmering for a couple of weeks, but now that the Bangkok Post, Bangkok Business Daily, and of course, Manager Daily, have latched on to it, I think it is now time to include mention of it in the article. The accusations are quite serious, and some compelling facts are being thrown around to back them up. Plus, this isn't one or two crazies making the accusations: a Senator, the Democrat Party, and others have joined in as well. Discussion of the so-called Plan can be seen here: http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showthread.php?p=9672 I refuse to hypothesize on whether the accusations are right or wrong, but I think it certainly deserves mention in this article. Patiwat 22:47, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
- For a while I thought these accusations were too ridiculous to merit any comment, but what can I say? If anyone finds it necessary to add further details, let me suggest adding it to the Sondhi Limthongkul entry, since it`s been his newspaper after all that`s been beating the drum on this. Regards, Tettyan 03:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Source of the political crisis
An anonymous editor had earlier added this sentence in to the background of the "Anti-Thaksin and pro-Thaksin rallies" section: "The chief source of controversy has been Thaksin's overwhelming support in the poor Northeastern provinces and his own hometown of Chiang Mai and nearby areas, leading to the crisis being protrayed as a conflict between the urban middle class and the rural poor." Does this make any sense at all? How can the man's popularity among North/Northeastern voters be the chief source of the controversy? The article describes several factors involved, e.g., the Shin Corp sale, the lese-majesty/Royal Powers accusations, etc. But nowhere in the article is this class-struggle/regional-conflict thesis expanded upon. I'd suggest removing this sentence. Any thoughts? Patiwat 11:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- I have removed this sentence. If somebody actually does have a reputable reference that claims that regional conflict or class struggle was the root cause of the crisis, then I'll be more than welcome to add the sentence back in. Patiwat 19:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Renaming "Stepping down" section?
Thaksin is back from leave. Could I suggest that the "Stepping down" section be renamed "Thaksin takes a political breather" or something? Because he never actually stepped down. Patiwat 11:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- How about "'Break' from politics"? I think that's how The Nation chose to translate Thaksin's own words. Tettyan 11:25, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Article needs further cleanup
User:Herrk has suggested that the article needs further cleanup. Could some specific suggestions be made about what needs cleanup? Patiwat 16:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I certainly can!
At present, the article is 71kb long, whereas 32kb is the wikipedia recommendation. For articles exceeding 50kb, the suggestion is to devide. However, "the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading time".
For the article at hand, I do not think that this is in any way the case. Especially when put into account that the highly regraded King Bhumibol Adulyadej only received a 43kb-article - despite being king of Thailand for 60 years! King Bhumibol Adulyadej most certainly deserves more attention than Thaksin Shinawatra and has had a lot more impact than the latter.
The article 'History of Thailand since 1973' would be a more appropriate place for most of what is posted here.
- Does this reflect the views of the editor who put up the "clean up" tag? I question this because "needs clean up" seems quite different from "needs shortening". That being said, the article should be summarized down, but I don't see the use of comparing it to the size of the King's article. I'll make a try at summarization of some parts, rather than wholesale removal of entire sections. Patiwat 17:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't realize that you User:Herrk were the editor that had put up the "clean up" tag. Apologies. Please sign your discussions with four tildes. Patiwat 17:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
- I've shortened the article down to 59kB by rewording and removing redundant info in less than half the sections. I'll have another go at it later, but I think this will result in a much smaller and easier to read article, without compromising any significant insights and info. Some sections, like the "Energy policy" section might be a bit difficult for me though, because of its controversial nature. Also note that the massive number of references in the article adds significantly to its size - the references alone account for about 15-20kB. Patiwat 22:05, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The "Clean up" tag is applied appropriatly here in deed. It is supposed to be used used for articles with problems (ungrammatical, poorly formatted, confusing, etc.) And the mass of redundant information on the subject which was in the article before Patiwat's laudable effort justified the term confusing.
However, a lot of superfluous quotes still remain. As you know, in order to quote academically correct, it sufficies to set a footnote link as reference. Additional literal quotes are dispensable, particularly in an encyclopedia. Taking them out would pretty much do the job without curbing the content.Herrk 06:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)Herrk
Thanks Patiwat for your work in trimming down the article without losing much of the substance. A few things I did think needed to be added back in, however - one was the fine for a technical violation imposed on Pantongtae in the aftermath of the Shin sale; the other was a brief note about Thaksin's high school alma mater - i think it's worth noting however briefly, that Montfort College is among the most elite schools in Chiangmai, and possibly within the entire northern region. Regards, Tettyan 15:08, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I decisively disagree with Patiwat. The fine imposed is supposed to be mentioned in his, Pantongtae's, article, not his farther's.
Montfort College's reputation does not belong here, either. A stub exists on this institution where, if necessary, an elaboration on the subject matter can be put and a link to it posted in the Taksin Shinawatra-entry. Herrk 17:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)Herrk
- "Decisively disagree" with me? That sounds very dramatic, Herrk, but please realize I was the editor who deleted the mention of Pantongtae's fine! Tettyan, I understand why you might want to include mention of the Pantongtae's fine, as many people view Pantongtae as being a tool of his father - hence the sins of the son are the sins of the father. But in hindsight, Pantongtae's error wasn't really major, as the SEC found in its investigation. I therefore don't think it should be included in Thaksin's article. I'm open to different perspectives on this issue though. Patiwat 04:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- The original summarized version by Patiwat mentions that Thaksin, his daughter, Shin executives and other associates were investigated by the SEC and cleared of all wrongdoing. If we're going to include that bit of information, then what's the logic in selectively omitting any mention of Thaksin's son? It should be noted that he was investigated, like everyone else, and charged with a small fine for a rather technical violation (I will try to incorporate the notion that the infraction was minor into the sentence). This section of the article is about the Shin sale (an extremely significant event in Thaksin's political career, I might add) and the findings against Pantongthae concluded the official investigation into that sale. Regards, Tettyan 12:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Tettyan that Montford should be mentioned as an elite high-school. It is mentioned in the article that the Shinawatra family was at the peak of Chiang Mai society - it reinforces this to note that Thaksin attended the most elite school in the Northern region (apologies to any Prince Royal alum). An educated Thai person might know that Montford is an elite school, as an educated westerner would know that Eton and Stuyvesant are elite schools. But the readership of Wikipedia is international, and such culture-specific knowledge should not be presumed. Lastly, I don't think the reader should have to click on every link in order to understand such nuisances and subtleties - if it can be noted in a concise manner in the main text of the article, it should. Patiwat 04:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Article cleaned up
After scrutinising the article a bit closer, I could not help but noticing that the "facts" presented were highly selective and bascially no proper citation was given.
Most of the links HTML links were irrelevant (e.g. footnotes 15,16,18,23,24,25,26 etc.) or inadequantly set.
Others (e.g. footnotes 21,31,35 etc.) were dead links.
Some were take from unreliable sources such as forwarded Google news group threats which where labeled to be taken from newspapers (e.g.3) or reverences to biased blog entries (e.g. 63)
Besides of dealing with those bogus citations, I took the liberty of removing quotes which were too long or irrelevant for the subject (such as that Dr. Taksin Shinawatra used to make coffee AND was the dishes in his younger days).
The same has been particularly done for the several apologetic remarks on "highly criticised/effective" meassures implemented by the government. Additionally, in cases of not complete neutrality or biasedness, such as the remark that people were weeping in response to a certain action.
I tried to give the article adequante lenght and style. However, a lot of citations are still needed. The section on privatisation, in my point of view, is still disproportionally long with regard to the person.
Maybe a couple of other users involved would improve the quality of the article.
Going through the wikipedia guidelines on verifiability of facts and neutral POV might as well. Herrk 03:31, 11 June 2006 (UTC)herrk
- Regarding the dead links, please note that all of them can be retrieved from the Internet Archive at http://www.archive.org. They should therefore be returned to the article. Patiwat 03:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- Your accusation of "bogus citations" is quite incorrect. Usenet postings of newspaper articles were used for citations rather than direct links to newspaper articles because the online archives of the Bangkok Post and The Nation (Thailand's main english language dailies) simply do not go back that far. I don't think those newspapers even had websites in the early 90s. Herrk, this was documented quite clearly in the Discussion page archives, namely the "Complete rewrite of "Entry Into Politics" section" posting. You erased well over a dozen citations. Could you please add them back in, and erase your "citation needed" tags where appropriate. Patiwat 04:00, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- Herrk, you have replaced several valid and relevant citations with the "citation needed" tag. For instance, I cited the article at http://www.pathfinder.com/asiaweek/97/1010/nat2.html to back up Suthep Thaugsuban's accusations that Thaksin used insider information to profit on the Baht devaluation of 1997. The link works, Asiaweek.com is a reasonably reputable news source, and the accusation is clearly mentioned in the fourth paragraph. Yet you replaced the citation with the "citation needed" tag. This seems to have occured for many other citations as well. If this is a misunderstanding or clerical error, could you please revert back to the original citations. Patiwat 04:17, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Please,Patiwat, I outlined my reasons. Please read my previous threat. That article reads
thorough editing. Herrk 05:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)Herrk
- I agree with your reasons that that the article needs editing, but adding incorrect edits isn't helping. You've done some good work already, so could you please double check your work, as requested above? Otherwise, I'll do it for you. Patiwat 07:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- Herrk, one of your many edits was to make "Accused of "Finland Plan"" a top-level section and making "Returning from "leave"" a sub-section under it. Could you explain your reasoning for this? I don't really see how Thaksin's return from leave has anything to do with the Finland Plan accusations. Patiwat 08:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- Herrk, no links last forever. If there is a full citation of a newspaper article MLA style, then there's no need to delete the entire citation. Just remove the link, and have the citation exist in text only. Those with access to news archives could easily look it up based only on the info provided in the citation itself. Regards, Tettyan 12:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Herrk, you've done some great work! Some of those citations are much more relevant than the older ones. Some questions though:
- You write that in 1990, Thaksin was almost broke, yet won the Thaicom satellite bid. This isn't backed up by the citation. If anything, he was quite successful in 1990, as SCC was listed on the SET in that year. Patiwat 16:18, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
The quotation reads -quote: In 1990 when Thaksin made a successful bid for a 20-year concession from the Telephone Organization of Thailand he was almost broke, as reported by Post reporters, but still had the daring to offer the TOT 20 billion baht in concession fees to garner the contract. Thaksin has never lacked for courage it seems. and it is taken from the BKK Post election profil 2001; I think it suffices.
As for the following:I wrote "designed by Thaksin and other Thai Rak Thai co-founders aimed at taking control of Thailand and replacing Thailand's constitutional monarchy with a regime dominated by Thaksin and his cronies." I assumed it entailed your 1), did it not?
As for the other points: You sure got a point there. Yet, those accusations can backfire badly on the accussers. That would be the moment when the discussion of this "fiendish" plan would, I think you can guess, be rather be dealt with in the "Finland plan" article, I suppose. But Be bold!
Besides, once those issue are dealt with and the few remaining citations update, I feel that the clean up-tag will no longer be needed. What do you figure?Herrk 16:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)Herrkk
- You deleted lots of details on the Finland Declaration, noting that it is a scheme aimed at creating a "regime dominated by Thaksin and his cronies". I have 3 issues with this. 1) It doesn't make clear that the accusation is much more serious that that - he is being publically accused of trying to topple the monarchy, which is rebellion of the highest order in Thailand. 2) It doesn't mention that the Democrats have supported the Finland accusations, unlike many of Sondhi & co.'s earlier accusations (adultery, allying with Satan to destroy the Erawan Shrine, etc.). This lends the Finland accusations much more legitimacy. 3) It ignores the fact that the accusations of toppling the monarchy are being made during the nation-wide celebration of the King's 60th anniversary on the throne. The combination of these three elements is quite a serious blow against Thaksin, and some mention is quite neccesary in the article. Patiwat 16:18, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- Apologies there Herrk, my mind always mixes up "constitutional monarch" (the individual) with "democracy with monarch as leader" (the system). Sondhi & Co have been accusing Thaksin of trying to destroy the later for a long time, but only recently have they taken to accusing him of trying to overthrow the former. I had already gone ahead and made some edits to that parapraph - could you see if you are OK with it? As for covering it in a seperate article, I'm not sure that is approporiate right now. Thaksin is clearly the one being hurt by these accusations (whether they are right or wrong is another matter) and they should be included in his article. If it later turns out that there is no historical significance, we can always just shorten it down later. Patiwat 21:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
That is your personal evaluation that Thaksin is being "hurt" by those accusations. The way it is now, it seems that "Sondhi & Co" are willingly trying to disturb the celebrations and Thaksin, despite opening the ceremonial procedures, is "hurt". I will put "in retaliation" back into the article, for reasons outlined below.
- I think that your edit is reasonable and your interpretation correct. What I would ideally like to do is include in the article any public polling results to a question like "Do you believe that the Prime Minister is behind the Finland Plot to overthrow the monarchy". Without such data, I'm relying on The Nation, which wrote that "Senior political scientists with PhDs like Chai-anan and Pramote know very well that highlighting the deeply sensitive issue of royal power is an effective way of damaging their opponent's political reputation." Plus historically, accusations of plots against the monarchy are rare but extremely effective. To my knowledge, this tool has only been used twice in Thai history: 1) in 1976, which resulted in the mass murder and rape of students at Thammasat, and 2) in the 40's, when "Pridi shot the King" accusations forced Pridi Bhanomyong into exile. Patiwat 03:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Energy policies / Privatization summarization
I have shortened down the Energy policies / Privatization section, and moved the detailed contents to the Energy Industry Liberalization and Privatization (Thailand) article, which should give that topic the historical perspective it deserves. I've debated Thaksin's privatization policies with many editors over many months, and know that my summarized version might still be controversial. Well, be bold and edit away! And please remember, detailed analysis should go in either the Energy Industry Liberalization and Privatization (Thailand) article or the Policies of the Thaksin government#Energy policies article. The summarized version should, as always, be as concise and neutral as possible. Patiwat 08:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. I might need your help with some of the older quotes, though. If for some claims a prober source can't be cited, what would you reckon? Delete? I would be more in favour of leaving the "citation needed" tag on in such a case. A wrong or mixed up citation, however, must, naturally, be avoided.Herrk 08:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)Herrk
- To me, adding a "citation needed" tag to controversial info increases the credibility and value of the article, whereas deleting the controversial info often leaves awkward gaps. I tend to leave a "citation needed" tag for a few days to a few weeks, in the hopes that somebody reading the article will attribute a correct source. Eventually, if the information is controversial, it will either be deleted, sourced, or adjusted in a way that makes the issue irrelevant. Patiwat 08:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
NPOV
Patiwat, again: wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It is about facts which can be proven from reliable sources. It is about objectivity.
You claim to "loath" Thaksin, yet you edit the article in a way which is apologetic and favourable towards him by, e.g. insisting on putting into the article that Thaksin has been accusing of aligning with "dark forces". This is a claim likly that is considered to be absurd and will be interpreted that way by the reader - and again fall back on "Sondhi&Co.", as you call them.
Beside, that accusation is not at all at the center of what "Sondhi&Co.". Remember: just by claiming some expertise on a subject, facts can not be generated. But existing ones can be proven by the means of citation of relyable sources.
Thaksin does not need "help" from us. He can help himself and probably does so by employing somebody, maybe two people, who monitor this entry. It is common practice in Thailand to draft cyper spin doctors in order to polish your appearance on web boards etc., as you know.
Neither do "Sondhi&Co.".
But wikipedia does in terms of safeguarding its quality standards! Herrk 02:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)Herrk
- Look, this isn't a place to debate politics. This is a biographical article about Thaksin. Prominent critics have made significant public accusations against Thaksin, which were then reported in respectible newspapers. When these accusations have significant impact against Thaksin's popularity, then why shouldn't these facts be cited in the article? Whether I like Thaksin or not, or whether Thaksin needs my help or not, or whether I agree with the accusations or not is irrelevant. Patiwat 02:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Besides, there is a very thin line about what is "absurd" in Thai politics. You might think that the public regards Sondhi is absurd for accusing Thaksin of destroying the Erawan Shrine. But hundreds of thousands of people still supported Sondhi. Thaksin's popularity has continued to fall. Some people obviously take Sondhi's accusations against Thaksin very seriously, and that is why those accusations were mentioned in earlier versions of the article. Now just days before the King's anniversary, Sondhi has accused Thaksin of trying to overthrow the monarchy. Do you think this is absurd, and lacks all credibility? The press and Opposition are taking it seriously. And how about Sondhi's other accusations, e.g., that Thaksin is corrupt, that he is a dictator, etc. Are these absurd as well? I'm not going to draw a line between what I personally think is absurd and not. I'm just going to continue to cite reliable sources about things that have a significant impact on the subject of this article. Patiwat 02:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Do you mind if I asked: can you read? Replies would not refer in any point made before. Herrk 03:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)Herrk