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VisualEditor is available alongside the original wikitext editor if you opt-in, by changing your preferences. It is temporarily disabled for IE9 and IE10 users, due to various issues that are being fixed, and it will not be made available for users of IE8 and earlier; such editors should switch to some other browser in order to use VisualEditor. Please note that VisualEditor is currently not available to unregistered users.

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Your feedback about the VisualEditor beta release

This page is a place for you to tell the Wikimedia developers about issues that you encounter when using the VisualEditor here on Wikipedia. It is still a test version and has a number of known issues and missing features. We do welcome your feedback and ideas, especially on some of the user interface decisions we are making and the priorities for adding new functions. All comments are read, but personal replies are not guaranteed.

A VisualEditor User Guide is at Wikipedia:VisualEditor/User_guide.

Add a new comment – View known bugs – Report a new bug in Bugzilla – Join the IRC channel: #mediawiki-visualeditor connect

Please click here to file a new bug report on this page

Archives: (generated by MiszaBot II)

Quick RfC, improving the current Template:VE Bug

Hi everybody! Some of you use Template:VE Bug in order to report bugs here. It's great that such a form exists, and I wish that other wikis had adopted it as well; I'd just like to suggest a few improvements for a very simple reason, we do know that a well written report helps developers a lot when they review, assess and assign bugs. Everybody knows that VE bugs can't really be triaged by anyone without knowing browser (and its version), skin, description and URL (or title at least) of the page where the error happened (I'd add that the OS seems needed as well). Many of us are familiar with this How to report a bug guide, and I would like to suggest that we slightly change the form so that some of those suggestions are included. For example, it would truly help if the Description field also prompted the user to include:

  • Steps to Reproduce:
  • Actual Results:
  • Expected Results:

(Please take a look at bug 55856 for an example of how this process might be easily described).

Also, looks like templates like Tracked and Answered one very popular on this wiki, and thus the related fields of the current VE Bug form are unused.

Even if you don't actually use the form to report, please keep in mind that the elements in bold are the key, and I am planning to remind this at the top of this page soon :)

For those who are good at templates instead, please comment and suggest improvements of my mockup version for a new report form. Thank you all so much. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:18, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I've left a slightly modified version at User:Elitre (WMF)/Sandbox2, with a note. - Pointillist (talk) 13:27, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot, user:Pointillist! I'll copy your comments here so that we can keep discussing about this:
<<Main differences from Elitre (WMF)'s original:
Expected and Actual directly follow Description, so it is easy to see whether the bug is already known without reading the entire report.
Expected, Actual and Steps broken out into separate cells, so each one has a permanent label in the left column.
OS/browser etc have lower prominence.
Notes fields added for optional test config stuff.>>
So, the web browser is actually a key element. Many browsers are whitelisted, but not all of their versions are, and there might be new issues coming up immediately after a new browser version is released.
The Workaround or suggested solution field is quite unused, so I'd leave that at the end.
The Notes field is helpful, and we might suggest there to get a screenshot, for example. (Unfortunately, unlogged users can't currently use VE on en.wp. This does not help, in that we do read often here about something going wrong that isn't really VE's fault, and it takes a lot of time, effort and patience to check/change/disable all the enabled gadgets and preferences). --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 10:36, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The bugzilla form looks good. Only thing is Component section, I really don't understand the different components. Whats ContentEditable and TechnicalDebt about? I tend to just file under general and let someone else make it more specific.--User:Salix alba (talk): 18:11, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think I share your concern, doesn't really help much ;) The point is, it's perfectly ok to go with General. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 21:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In the meantime, I present you... the brand new Bugzilla report form! --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 21:38, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I changed User:Elitre_(WMF)/Sandbox2 again so that it mirrors the new form. If people get used to it, they'll be able to use Bugzilla autonomously in no time! Will "deploy" this tomorrow, if that's ok for you. Thanks a lot everybody, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 21:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
FYI your link to the brand new Bugzilla report form demands a Buzilla login (which recommends using an anonymous disposable email account etc). Any chance you could link to a bug report using the new bugzilla form? - Pointillist (talk) 22:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A screenshot is on its way, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 22:52, 30 October 2013 (UTC) Now at File:Guided bug report form.png. Thanks a lot for pointing this out. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 23:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That was quick! Looks good to me, but what do the regular bug reporters think? - Pointillist (talk) 23:12, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I was hoping to find out in this thread, but several of them seem pretty tired ;) Regulars! Chime in! --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 23:14, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pointillist, User:Salix alba, User:Thryduulf Hey, since I don't usually publish templates... can someone make User:Elitre_(WMF)/Sandbox2 official? I am not sure we want to overwrite the original one. Also, would a link to mw:How_to_report_a_bug be enough as documentation, for the time being? Thanks, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 13:08, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really not the person you need to ask about templates! Sorry, Thryduulf (talk) 15:49, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Now moved to {{VE Bug2}} which I guess makes it official. Testing
Bug report VisualEditor
Mito.money Please app{}
Intention: Somewhere to report bugs
Steps to Reproduce: Do this
  1. paste in blank template
  2. fill in fields
Results: a nicely formatted report
Expectations: VE devs will instantly fix the bug
Page where the issue occurs Template:VE_Bug2
Web browser Chrome
Operating system Mac OSX
Skin Vector
Notes: This is not really a bug report
Workaround or suggested solution write it by hand
--User:Salix alba (talk): 16:39, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks!!! I created Template:VE_Bug2/bug_template, so that it can be linked on this page as we did before. Salix, can you check if this is ok as well? --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 16:56, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It should be live now. Thanks everybody. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:19, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Moving a navbox deletes it

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T58923

When testing on Yersinia pseudotuberculosis, I moved the Template:Gram-negative proteobacterial bacterial diseases navbox from the bottom a bit higher. I dropped it after the "IPR015227" text a few lines higher. The result is that the navbox disappears from view, and in "review your changes" it is simply deleted. I haven't saved this result, doesn't seem to be a point in saving this... Further tests show that it doesn't really matter where I place the navbox, it always gets deleted. Testing on other articles indicate that this happens with all navboxes (test on Albert I of Belgium, which takes quite a while to open though...) Changing the order of the navboxes works, but as soon as you want to place it higher on the page, it disappears completely. Fram (talk) 09:31, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've duplicated this issue on your example page, Fram, but when I try it on Dunn Peak, the problem doesn't appear: [1]. Going to try it in a few different scenarios to try to figure out what the trigger is. PEarley (WMF) (talk) 15:58, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, haven't isolated the issue, but I'll post my results so far. If anyone spots something in common within the groups of test cases, let me know.
Test scenario: Click once on a "navbox" type template at the bottom of a page. Click and drag the item and drop at the top of an External links section.
Navbox disappears upon dropping: Page:Yersinia pseudotuberculosis Temp: Template:Gram-negative proteobacterial bacterial diseases, Page: Albert I of Belgium Temp: Template:Belgian princes, Page: Vancouver Canucks, Temp: Various, within Template:Navboxes
Navbox drops where it should: Page: Dunn Peak Temp: Template:Columbia Mountains, Page: Waging Heavy Peace: A Hippie Dream, Temp: Template:Neil Young, Page: British Columbia, Temp: Various, within Template:Navboxes PEarley (WMF) (talk) 16:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Bumping, still haven't found a trigger for this. PEarley (WMF) (talk) 19:20, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
All of the problems contain a sister link template like {{Commons}}. Of the ones that are working, the only one containing a sister template is the last, and that has its navboxes wrapped in the {{navboxes}} template. The last also has a long list of external links, so that the ELs are taller than the sister link templates. So that's two things we could check. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 14:42, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What I'm thinking here is that the sister templates are floated, and we can't move floated templates. But my subsequent testing isn't obviously confirming my theory (nor is it exactly disproving it, either). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:07, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well... I spent almost an hour testing various things, and I've learned something: the navboxes stop disappearing if you break all the refs. By "break", I mean change <ref> into the completely broken [ref>. I have no idea why this makes navboxes quit disappearing, but perhaps I can claim to be confused at a more advanced level now. If anyone wants to play with it, you'll find the articles in User:Whatamidoing_(WMF)/sandbox2. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:37, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Space between ":" and characters count increase

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T58733
The following discussion is marked as answered. If you have a new comment, place it just below the box.

Hi, I noticed that several edits by VE on frwiki are modifying the regular space character before ":", replacing with an other whitespace character, but probably an odd one since the count of characters is increasing by 1 for each character replaced. Examples: [2], [3], ... This is again a problem making dirty diffs and leaving strange characters (but invisible) in articles. Could something be done about this so that normal space characters are not replaced by something else ? --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 12:07, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, isn't that 48570? It's been patch-to-review for a while now, so let's ping User:Ssastry about it. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:15, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, it seems a different one: 48570 is about adding space characters (every time, a space character is added before ":"), the one I'm reporting is about space characters being replaced by an other whitespace characters (only one character, but counted as 2 by diff because it's not an ASCII character). --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 12:27, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, subbu will tell us. Here I think I had noted what you refer to, that was later marked as a duplicate of 48570. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:32, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Elitre, I have the impression that is different because the result is quite different: 48570 and 51024 resulted in many regular space characters before a ":", while the problem I'm reporting results in one special whitespace character before a ":". We'll see ;-) --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 12:42, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's a win for everybody that I'm not a dev :D --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:47, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is not Template:Bug. I closed it (should have done it long back :)). This is a different error. I have a suspicion what that might be. We'll investigate and fix it. Thanks for the report. Ssastry (talk) 16:18, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Any news about this one ? It's regularly making dirty diffs on frwiki, and nothing seems to have changed. Is there any bugzilla for this ? --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 15:00, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi NicoV, Yes, it is Template:Bug. I thought I added you and Elitre to the bug report, but maybe I added some other NicoV :). It has been fixed and will be deployed on Monday. Ssastry (talk) 16:05, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oups, my bad, probably missed the mail. --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 16:23, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Strange result

Here, something went wrong. Note the editor succeeded in introducing wiki-markup into the VE text :-) Probably not a very common bug (or occurrence, "bug" may be the wrong word here), but indicative that the wiki-linking feature perhaps isn't as intuitive as hoped. Fram (talk) 14:52, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I just found out that if you want to add a word between brackets in VE, it will actually suppress the opening ones, but it will leave the closing ones. Note that you can still re-add the opening ones, and that my edit did not trigger the wikimarkup warning. Not sure if this is known, will investigate more tomorrow. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 21:21, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Bumping this, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I can't replicate this. When I type [[This]], I get the expected result of <nowiki>[[This]]</nowiki>. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:28, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
About what Fram is reporting, that is not unusual AFAIK - when you add wikicode, you just get a warning message and what you do will not work properly, but you can still save. About what I said instead, it does happen to me, so it's now at 57207. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 21:40, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a note about which browsers I've tried. It might be specific to Chrome or to Windows. But it's hard to know, since it's not happening consistently for you. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:29, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

citation needed

Here, at "humor effect", you get a citation needed with a reason. In VE mode, you get a "span title =" which shouldn't be there... Fram (talk) 14:05, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I tested this, and I guess it depends on the inverted commas. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:54, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The template's docs say not to use double quotation marks, and, indeed, things behave oddly if you don't follow the instructions and correctly if you do. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:55, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Main missing or poorly working aspects (mainspace)

So, what do you consider the main remaining missing or poorly working aspects of VE? I'll list a few I think of right now, feel free to add your own (I'm bound to froget some very common ones). It may give an indication of where the most urgent problems are situated and which things shouldn't be forgotten... Fram (talk) 15:34, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Galleries can't be used
  • Tables can hardly be used
  • Copy-paste removes all markup
  • Redirects
  • File handling (location, replacing, sizing, ...)
  • Scrolling (with arrows, or after copy-paste of text)
  • Wiki-markup isn't supported
  • ...but Wiki-markup is necessary in templates
  • Citation templates
  • Performance, obviously
  • Different look in VE than in view mode (whitespace between templates and so on, compare e.g. Internet Archive standard and in VE mode)
  • Reference numbering in VE mode restarts in text when there are refs in the infobox
  • PLus many more minor bugs (minor in the sense of less often occuring, not necessarily of having less serious consequences, e.g. the problems on moving navboxes)
Some more:
  • Hidden comments <!-- ... --> aren't shown
  • Special characters (no way to insert them, no way to know if existing spaces are ordinary spaces or non-breaking spaces)
  • Redlinks are not red
  • Transclusion editing interface: It is horribly inefficient for editing, showing only one parameter value at a time, and requiring scrolling/looking through the list, and then clicking on each parameter you want to edit. A design that is more like the interface reftoolbar uses for the cite templates - ie, being able to see and edit many parameters AND their values all at once - would be a huge improvement. Also, if many templates are used consecutively, such as {{jctint}} and related templates (which build a table row-by-row), it is impossible to edit just one of these templates - the transclusion editing interfaces groups everything together on the left-hand scroll list, making it difficult to find the spot you want to edit - especially if the same template with the same parameters is used repeatedly (maybe 20+ times) in the group of templates.
- Evad37 (talk) 16:56, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Yes, those are annoying as well. Fram (talk) 09:41, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Fram and Evad37: We're in agreement on most of these issues and "just" need to work through them (each of them tends to be far more complex in practice than it looks at first glance). Regarding differences between view/edit mode, some of them can't be helped if you want to preserve e.g. line-breaks in the wikitext during roundtripping (which is debatable in the long run). Some are due to the "slug" user experience; see bugzilla:47790. Some are Parsoid output issues that will be gradually improved. Regarding wiki markup in templates, the goal is to render mini-VE invocations for filling in template parameters except in cases where it's absolutely not possible to do so. And as you know we're not going to support raw wiki markup in VE itself.
Citations and transclusion user experience is one of the highest priority issues and you'll see some significant improvements there soon. Our main concern is to not get too drawn into the specifics of one wiki or set of templates, but come up with good solutions that leverage e.g. community-editable template metadata and enable editors to create a pleasurable and efficient experience working with various templates.--Eloquence* 02:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"And as you know we're not going to support raw wiki markup in VE itself." Yes, I know. I still haven't seen a single convincing reason for this, so I will continue to list this as a serious shortcoming of VE, even when every edit can be done in VE, but a lot more so as long as editors still need wikitext editing anyway, in VE and for things not supported by VE at all, and as long as VE shows wikitext in things like "review your changes". You shouldn't expect people (new editors) to learn wikitext editing, and then tell them that they can't use even the most basic wikitext markup in VE, not because VE can't handle it (it can handle it perfectly allright), but because the devs (or their bosses) explicitly but inexplicably don't want it. 10:11, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Yes, it does seem odd that VE is smart enough to detect wiki markup being entered, but not smart enough to turn it into properly formatted text. It would be magic if it could turn [[link]] into link, '''bold''' / ''italic'' into bold / italic, and {{cn}} into [citation needed] as I type. - Evad37 [talk] 12:32, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's not that it ain't smart enough. It hasn't been instructed to do so, and never will, as Erik also repeated above. Regards, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 13:51, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we know. A long time ago, I still thought that the decision not to support wikicode had a technical reason, but it has since become abundantly clear that the only reason is that the devs don't want this, even though they aren't the ones using it. The complete disdain for the editors for which they are developing this software is quite surrealistic (see also the "bitching about testing" section). Anyway, "it never will" is to be taken with a grain of salt, it would never become opt-in either, until the WMF was taken out of the equation and enwiki took things into their own hands. Fram (talk) 08:03, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's a design decision, not a technical limitation.
Dave, the question isn't being smart enough to turn it into properly formatted text. The question is being smart enough to know when I mean for [[Example]] to be a link to that article and when I mean for that to be something else: perhaps an explanation of how to use wikicode to make a link (e.g., on dozens of Help: pages), or perhaps part of a direct quotation, or perhaps when I'm merely adding it for decorative value (e.g., as ASCII art, like [[-]]-[[-]]-[[-]]-[[-]]). In the mainspace, here at the Wikipedias, an experienced editor who types double-square brackets almost always means for that to be a link. But outside of encyclopedia articles, or if the user is less experienced, it is much harder to guess what the actual intent is. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:38, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The main space is all I care about really, VE is hardly used outside of it anyway (in user sandboxes, but these are intended to be mainspace articles anyway). I know that VE has to decide one way or another, but why have the devs chosen to go with the least likely solution? The logical thing would have been to interpret things like they are most often intended, not like they are least often intended. Even better would of course be a choice (a "nowiki" button if you really need to have a nowiki), but absent that, the devs have decided that hundreds of double square brackets will not be recognised as wikitext because one or two will be needed to be shown as such, perhaps, someday. Worse, when actual practice of Wikipedia indicated the scale of this problem, they still refused (and refuse) to change their stance, taking a dogmatic "NEVER!" approach instead. I'm sorry (not really), but design decisions should be taken to accommodate the editors, not at the whim of the devs. There is no excuse to continue to ignore the wish of the editors in this case. Reopen the discussion, see what is wanted, needed, and possible, and then again make a design decision. But as it stands now, the "final" decision and the way it is made is totally unacceptable. Fram (talk) 07:59, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
MS Word figured out how to handle auto-formatting years ago: Assume that certain text patterns should be auto-formatted, provide an easy undo option for one-time cases where you don't want the auto-formatting, and have advanced preferences to disable auto-formatting if you mostly work in those fringe areas. It's a bit disappointing that the decision seems to be mostly ideological, rather than looking at the needs/wants of the community and technical feasibility. - Evad37 [talk] 09:27, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Elitre, you reference Erik Moeller above, who said "We're listening, but in this case we're saying no, and that decision is final. We can elaborate a bit more on the why if that helps, but parsing wikitext in VisualEditor is absolutely not going to happen.". Well, yes, a lot of elaboration would be welcome. Who is the "we" that is saying "no"? The devs? The Foundation? Erik solo? A cross-wiki RfC to see what the editors actually want? "That decision is final". Why? Consensus can change, people can come to new conclusions based on actual experience, needs can be greater than anticipated, ... So why is this "final"? "Elaborate a bit more on the why" is very cynical, as I have not seen any "why" so far, so elaborating more on it is hardly possible. Just start by giving us the why, and what that why is based on, and who made that decision. @Eloquence:. Fram (talk) 08:03, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How do I insert a picture?

I want to copy an image from one site (characters in the t.v. show "Bones") to another site, (List of fictional anthropologists). I got the picture to copy (using the source file) onto the media page (though there was no explanation of what to do), but then I was stumped. There was no "paste," "apply," "do" or any other similar button (to say nothing of there being no explanation there or at the guide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VisualEditor/User_guide) page. All I saw was a big X. Suffice it to say that I didn't succeed in getting the picture onto the page. Kdammers (talk) 01:39, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know, you can't. Someday in the distant future probably... Fram (talk) 09:35, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Then why is there a media button? In any case, if it is non-operative, there should be a notice to that effect. Kdammers (talk) 12:02, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The feature, AFAIK, is working as intended. It lets you choose pics from local wikis or Commons, you just need to give it a keyword. The guide does explain how it works. Thanks, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:28, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Kdammers, you asked "How do I insert a picture?" and later "why is there a media button?" The answer to those is: you can insert a picture using the media button, it works (more or less, e.g. don't try to insert it at the left side...). But what you actually wanted to do, was copy an image from one article to another using VE. This is not possible (although it would of course be very useful). What you have to do is determine the file name (which is impossible in VE! You have to do it in wikitext), and then type that name into the destination article into the box you get when you chose "media". Obviously, if you are savvy enough to open wikitext to find the filename, you'll probably simply copy-paste the full "file" text and open the other article in wikitext as well...

Elitre, I presume you misunderstood the intended question (understandably, it wasn't very clear), but I hope that you don't mean that the lack of copy-paste (and many other features) in the "media" feature is "working as intended", but that the feature works for the few things it does, but is severely lacking in many others. If it truly was the intention that the "media" option only would offer what it does now, then I don't think VE will ever be considered non-beta. Fram (talk) 12:38, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fram, we are all aware that copy/paste for VE has not reached that point yet. My point was merely that, right now, the Media option does what is explained in the Guide :). As a wikipedian, I'd be quite concerned about copy/pasting of images which are not already uploaded on our servers with full information about author, license and so on (particularly for those wikis like it.wp for which Fair Use is not an option). --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:46, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm discussing copy paste from one enwiki article to another, obviously. I'm totally in agreement that copy-pasting images from outside Wikipedia is a rather bad idea generally. Fram (talk) 13:30, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fram, yes I can insert pictures using wikitext, but my concern is with improving VE. I just noticed that for some sites (e.g., Asian pear, when I go to media in VE, I get a gallery of possible images that are insertable with one click on a chosen image. So, for some sites 'media' works for me with-out my having "think" at all, i.e., I found it intuitive. But for other sites, where there is no gallery (where does the gallery come from?), it sounds to me like You are saying is that I should enter the file name into the rectangle to the right of the magnifying glass. Okeh, but then what? Entering the file name alone does not activate any-thing. Hitting enter does not activate any-thing. The X will only kill it. Kdammers (talk) 08:03, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I never thought to click on the "Insert Media or the icon next to it, since that seemed like nothing more than the title. But checking back I tried it, but clicking on them didn't do any-thing any-way. Kdammers (talk) 08:05, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Kdammers: Regarding your question of where the gallery comes from, the user guide says "Clicking the 'Media' icon opens a dialog that automatically searches this Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons for media files, using the name of the page you are editing." So in the case of "Asian pear", the search functionality is finding a lot of matches. On the other hand, if you go to (for example, a random article I just went to) Marsh Lake (Nova Scotia), the search doesn't find anything.
Regarding "Entering the file name alone does not activate any-thing," that's not my experience. If you paste the file name in (but not "File:", which isn't part of the file name), you should see definitely see the image you want (from Wikimedia Commons).
If that still doesn't work for you, please let us know the file name of the image/picture, and the article you were trying to add the image to. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 02:09, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There are some problems (predating VisualEditor) with Commons' search indexing that especially affect images that were uploaded recently. Most of them process through in a day or two, but searching for an image that you just uploaded a few minutes ago can sometimes be an exercise in frustration (regardless of whether you're searching for it inside VisualEditor or at Commons in the regular search box). There are bugs open on the problem: Commons' search indexing needs to be improved, and VisualEditor needs (IMO) to be able to add images based on exact file names. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 02:15, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You might also want to see 37932 and 38031. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 13:35, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, now it DID work when I entered (a different - I can't remember what the other file name was) file name. But now I have another problem. How do I put a label underneath the picture? Simple typing does not work. Should I have labeled (if so, how?) before it got inserted? Is there some special place for adding text associated with illustrations? Kdammers (talk) 02:28, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, you're trying to add a caption, if I understand correctly? This section of the user guide has a section about it, please report if the described procedure doesn't work for you. Thanks, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 13:43, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank You, Elitre. For me that was hardly intuitive, even though after the fact it seems logical. But, even so, it doesn't exactly work for me. When I try to type in the caption, The letters don't appear in the order I type them: "Emily DeSchanel" appears as "mily DeSchanel" and "E" down a line. The "E" could not be erased. By using the back key, I started over (2 times, i.e., a total of three tries), and got the same result. Then when I went back to the article and started again, I got a long list that looks some-thing like this:

"E" "ily DeSchanel" "mily DeSchane" "ly DeSchan" etc. when I tried to erase this mess, I could only erase some of it, leaving a list about 5 or ten lines long with one and two letters per line. Other than backing out (or adding stuff), I can't seem to do any-thing with this.Kdammers (talk) 09:24, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I noted that problem here some time ago (even forgot to add it to the list of most problematic remaining problems in the section above, there are just too many of those remaining...). At the moment (and for some time already), you can't add a decent caption to an image. Makes the image handling a bit useless of course. I have complained to @JDForrester (WMF): about the many problems with file handling, but received the response "@Fram: I'm immensely puzzled by this - VisualEditor has not remotely "eliminated nearly all functionality" from media files. We have repeatedly and clearly said over the last nine months that the rest of the functionality (all of it) is coming, but is less of a priority. If you're going to mis-represent that, how can we have a proper conversation about the matter on which we should focus and when? Jdforrester (WMF) (talk) 18:13, 11 October 2013 (UTC) " (see User talk:Jdforrester (WMF)#Office hours). This and other similar responses coming from someone whose paid job description is "My job is to help make sure the VisualEditor team understands what the community wants and needs, is focussed on the things that matter, and is engaging with and understood by the community." makes one understand the rift between some of the main people at WMF and the people for who they supposdly are developing software (see also Erik Möller, the WMF Deputy Director, and User:Jorm (WMF), the "Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation" for examples of this rift). I don't think VE will be out of BETA mode anytime soon... Fram (talk) 08:12, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It won't be, and that's the key. Now checking if anyone has filed this issue. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 21:45, 18 November 2013 (UTC) Now at 57211, and thanks for reporting this: I suspect that many new features are coming on that front, though. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 22:02, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect that this is specific to Firefox. I have no trouble adding an image with a caption, or even adding a ref to a caption in Safari. But I get the same results in Firefox 25. It would be useful if someone would try to add a caption in Chrome and let us know the results. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:53, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(After) feedback

I just worked on a page and had a problem (reported above). So, I used the feedback option. I have two issues with that option. First, it is not clear that the feedback will be posted with-out (at least as far as I can see) any indication of what site the editor is on when s/he fills out the form. I had assumed that that information would be included automatically ( like in some discussion articles on requests for deletion etc.). Since /If it isn't, the editor fling the feedback should be given a heads up, since viewing the specific site is often needed for others to understand the problem, and the editor might not come back for a while or might have edited a lot of sites and not remember which one had the problem. Second, after completing the feedback and sending it, I was still on the VE page, but I cannot save the page (the button is light green and inactive). It seems the only way to exit is to cancel, losing any changes I might have made (actually, after writing the feedback, I don't remember if any of my changes were made in that session, so it's possible, there are no changes to be lost, but still....)Kdammers (talk) 02:13, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It works for me. Can you test it again, making sure that you have changed the page before leaving feedback? Fram (talk) 09:29, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, yes. It seems to be because there were no changes made. But, as I noted, some-one might not remember if s/he's made changes. (I can't tell if it works otherwise, at the moment, since VE is claiming I used wikieditor, when I have not, only clicking on the link icon and typing plain text.)Kdammers (talk) 12:10, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So, I just tested. I could leave my feedback, and I could save my edit later. What I think might be slightly confusing there, is that the bug report goes to Bugzilla, and this is not mentioned. We might work on this, I'll let you know. As for the feedback here instead, the page where the comment is posted is clearly mentioned twice, and can be opened elsewhere by right-clicking. I am not sure if or how this should be furtherly improved. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:42, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The report is going to bugzilla???? What the heck? Bugzilla isn't even an SUL project, it displays non-public information... Geez, guys. It should transclude onto this page. Risker (talk) 03:04, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, I'll discuss this with the rest of the team. Stay tuned for updates. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:17, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So the story is that the feedback tool is not specific to VisualEditor. The only thing that VisualEditor has any control over is the link (to this page). But James A is going to see whether it's possible to get the rest of the text clarified for everyone, which would obviously include us, too. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:58, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

New categories not rendered

The following discussion is marked as answered. If you have a new comment, place it just below the box.

When I add a category, it does not appear on the page after saving. John Vandenberg (chat) 04:46, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Same here. It isn't shown directly after saving, even though it is present. Refreshing makes it visible. Another issue I noted: can categories please always get a new line? This looks terrible. Fram (talk) 09:33, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Did adding categories work properly in the past? I guessing it is a regression, as I doubt that VE was rolled out to Category pages when adding of parent categories does not work properly, and nobody has noticed until now. John Vandenberg (chat) 17:30, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Adding a category actually works; the bug you are looking for is 48560, though. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 15:08, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Elitre (WMF) for finding the relevant bug for me; I don't think it is appropriate to say it 'works' if the category doesn't appear after save, and it also emits silly layout (is there a bug for that?), which causes bugzilla:56880 to become very prominent. John Vandenberg (chat) 00:36, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This "silly layout of new categories" issue might be Parsoid not doing the right thing. Will take a look tomorrow. Ssastry (talk) 02:49, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Now fixed @ https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/95432/ ... will be deployed Monday. Ssastry (talk) 16:48, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ssastry, thanks, it's always a pleasure to have you around here. Please tell Parsoid on our behalf that it needs to behave, will you? :) --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 13:38, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Elitre, yes, I have been training for a long time in the art of talking to inanimate objects .... I remain hopeful that one of these days .... Ssastry (talk) 16:19, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Messages should reference ability to switch to source editor

Both the notice on first opening VE ("You can keep using the wikitext editor by clicking the "Edit source" tab instead – unsaved changes will be lost.") and the wikitext warning ("Click "Edit source" to edit the page in wikitext mode – unsaved changes will be lost.") need to be changed to reference the newly added ability to switch to the source editor without losing unsaved changes:Jay8g [V•T•E] 05:09, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As soon as that one works properly at least. Tested in on User:Fram/sandbox, but doesn't work. Tested it on File:!!! - !!! album cover.jpg, doesn't work either. Tested it on Category:Texas A&M University, doesn't work either. Tested it with or without making changes to the page before attempting the switch, no difference. Firefox 25, Windows 7... Fram (talk) 09:28, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Works fine for me (Vector, Chrome 30, Win7) on all sorts of pages. Some take a little time to load, but all show up with the diff in the preview area, and the changes carried through to the source editor below. My thanks to whoever implemented this feature, that one less bit of custom coding/hacking to load from my common.js - Evad37 (talk) 10:11, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fram, would you like to test again? It worked for me as well. I'm going to try it in your sandbox :) --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 11:02, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Mmm. Maybe it's FF. Retesting. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 11:07, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(ec)No, still doesn't work. I get the "you are about to change" message, but then the VE page gets "bleached" out, as if an opaque glass is put in front of it, and nothing further happens. I can still use the toolbox at this time, and can edit the article in VE, but it doesn't have the normal look. Probably some preference interfering with it? Fram (talk) 11:15, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My guess is it's FF, as I can't switch with it as well, and I'm filing a bug right now. Thanks for the catch, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 11:16, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Now at 56767. Will "bug" devs on IRC as soon as someone wakes up. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 11:26, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for testing and confirming, and my apologies for using such an exotic browser :-D Fram (talk) 11:27, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I had noticed that (in Firefox) and was going to make a note about it, but I guess I forgot:Jay8g [V•T•E] 20:00, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. He Who Shall Not Be Named (James :p) knows about this bug, so keep your finger crossed. Happy weekend everyone! --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 20:04, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Elitre (WMF), has a bug be raised to fix the original problems identified in the first comment by Jay8g in this thread? John Vandenberg (chat) 00:40, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hey John. There's no need to raise a bug for that. There are a few bugs about that feature (the first is already patch-to-review while the second, 56835, likely depends on another patch-to review one) that prevent a lot of users from even just testing it. When they are addressed, I (and other liaisons) will be glad to make sure that all the related messages and pages in, well, all languages reflect that this major feature is up and running. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 13:35, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My favorite VE edit

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T57461

I use VE once in a while for simple edits. Today I made this edit to add quotation marks for song titles and used the edit summary "added quotation marks". When I checked my edit after saving, I was surprised to see that VE correctly added some additional quotation marks in <ref name> tags, but was happy it was consistent with my edit summary. :-) GoingBatty (talk) 00:45, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think we've seen VE doing this before, and it's an unnecessary and undesirable change: quote marks are not needed round single-word reference names, and personally I carefully choose single-word or hyphenated names to avoid the unnecessary clutter (and extra keystrokes) of using quote marks. I don't know why VE does this "genfix", but it shouldn't do so. See WP:NAMEDREFS: "Quotes are optional if the only characters used are letters A–Z, a–z, digits 0–9 and the symbols !$%&()*,-.:;<@[]^_`{|}~". PamD 08:37, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I asked about this, and it turns out that while quotation marks are "optional", they're only optional because they added some code to cope with people forgetting them. The Correct™ approach is to use quotation marks for all ref names, and so VisualEditor adds them. However, VisualEditor should only be adding them to the specific paragraphs and/or refs that you changed during that edit, not all over the page.
This is due to a bug in Parsoid that is only triggered under specific circumstances (a cacheing problem + a timeout error), and since the fix went live here a couple of days ago, you shouldn't see it any longer... or at least, we should see it much less. Please report any new instances of this. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:07, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Baruch Spinoza references in captions

The following discussion is marked as answered. If you have a new comment, place it just below the box.

This bug page [4] has the note "RESOLVED FIXED", but the references 19 and 20 in Baruch Spinoza which are in image captions disappear from the references list in VE and the numbering becomes discombobulated. Win7 FF 24.0 Monobook. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 05:42, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I thought this could be related to another, still open bug, but I can't find which one (the two in the "see also" field for example are not resolved, but look different). If nobody has further ideas on this, I'll reopen that one. (For the record, those refs are now 20 and 21, I think.) --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:11, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Toc Toc. Who's there?

When using VE, the TOC disappears (tested in Flags of counties of the United States and Auto racing). I don't think this happened already before the weekend, I think I would have noticed it... FF25, Windows 7. Fram (talk) 14:56, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm here, and you missed 49224! --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:59, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Funny how we (well, I) can miss things that have been lacking for so long... Fram (talk) 15:17, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Refs in galeries create errors

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T59216

I think this was noted a few months ago, but bringing it back to make sure won't hurt. In Flags of counties of the United States, there are references inside galleries (which isn't uncommon). In VE, you get big red "Cite error" notices for these. Fram (talk) 14:58, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just confirming this bug. It complains there is no reflist for refgroup 'N', but the page does contain {{Reflist|group=N}}. I've tested with a longer group name, and without any group name. The group name isnt part of the problem. --John Vandenberg (chat) 05:05, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If the refs are actually displayed within the gallery (the only way I could think of was to make them part of a caption; see here), then the error does not appear. I think that the gallery itself is being treated as if it were a completely separate page. As a result, this may be one of those things that is automatically resolved as soon as any gallery editing is supported at all. I filed it as Template:Bug. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:36, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Disappearing and reappearing text

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T59217

Can anyone confirm this for me?

  1. Open a page with pre-existing content.
  2. Type or change some of the text (I was adding a new first line).
  3. Select and cut (⌘ Command+x) some pre-existing text (I cut mine from the third line).
  4. Notice that what you typed on the first line has been undone.
  5. Paste what you cut (in my case, at the end of the first line).
  6. Notice that what you typed on the first line has been redone.

I ran into this over at office.wikimedia, but office is also running MediaWiki version 1.23wmf3 (2ac963d), so it should behave the same here. I particularly want to know whether this is a Mac/Safari/Vector issue, or if it also happens elsewhere. Thanks, Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:21, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Confirmed, mostly, with Vector/Chrome 30/Windows 7 – except that the first letter of the line does not disappear. The missing text only reappears when the cut text is pasted onto the line with the missing text. - Evad37 [talk] 00:14, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! I've filed this as Template:Bug and am grateful to have your confirmation both for the additional OS/browser and for identifying which details were necessary. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:42, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Some positive feedback

I did a significant copy-edit of an article today, using VisualEditor as much as possible. There were still a few things I had to use wikitext for (in particular, accented letters and some odd template stuff), but on the whole I was able to complete the edits with just VisualEditor. I would not have been able to do that four months ago. Good work on the steady progress. Risker (talk) 06:40, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Risker. Your words are appreciated. Did you have a chance to test the "Switch to wikitext" feature yet? Regards, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:31, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Question

Is there any update about this bug? It's been almost a month since it was reported and I don't see any difference. Thank you TeamGale 06:46, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't heard anything about this annoying problem. I'll ask James F at tomorrow's meeting. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:06, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks :) TeamGale 23:06, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
He says that it's tied up in work with the references dialog, and will be fixed "possibly in December". Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:44, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for asking and for the update! Maybe if they change the whole dialog, this one might not be needed ;) Thanks again. I'll wait. TeamGale 20:27, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Disappearing templates

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T58923

I noted some weeks ago that some navboxes disappear when you try to move them in VE. I can add now that the "authority control" template has the same problem (disappears after moving, "save button" freezes after you have reviewed that change). Tested on David B. Feinberg. Fram (talk) 10:04, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and stub templates as well apparently! Tested on Tessie Santiago.

And succession boxes. Tested on Gennady Golovkin. Fram (talk) 13:18, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It appears to be the same bug, since you can move all of these templates in these articles if you break/remove all the refs. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:17, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Fram,
Gennady Golovkin contains two succession boxes. Only the one at the bottom of the page is disappearing when I drag it. Is that true for you?
Also, I'm finding that only templates at the end of the page are disappearing. Templates that have (visible) text beneath them do not seem to disappear. (Categories and persondata don't count.) You can try this out at https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:Whatamidoing_(WMF)/sandbox2&oldid=582563673 if you want; I piled a bunch of templates at the end, and then added a line of plain text at the very bottom. Do any of those disappear for you (without first moving them underneath the line of stray text)? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:17, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not even seeing the other succession box at Golovkin? The "awards and achievements" box. Which other box do you consider to be a "succession box" there? The professional boxing record? That one seems to have all kinds of problems as well (style parameter), but doesn't have the "disappearing trick" enabled. But indeed, using your test, it seems that the problem is with (some?) templates originally placed after the last bit of plain text only. Which is still quite a lot of templates of course ;-) Fram (talk) 22:38, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bitching about testing

I have been told by some that I shouldn't blame WMF (devs, systems, whatever) for the shortcomings of VE, but seriously, sometimes it can't be helped. If it tunrs out that my reason for this post is based on flawed information, then please let me know. Otherwise:

The switch between VE and wikitext editing has been active now for a few weeks, and was announced at e.g. mw:VisualEditor/status#2013-10-monthly as one of the major new features of the month in VE.

As far as I can tell, this has never worked in Firefox (see Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback#Messages should reference ability to switch to source editor. If correct, this means that a major new feature has not been tested on one of the two or three main browsers for VE. Coupled with the serious failure of early November with accents, which revealed that new VE releases were (until then) not tested on non-enwiki versions, makes it obvious that the criticisms which were raised multiple times and which led in part to the RfC fiasco here, have not changed anything at WMF (or whichever part of WMF is responsible for this) concerning this.

Why should we believe anything the WMF tells us wrt to testing, feedback, learned lessons, and so on if it looks as if in reality all we get is a big "fuck you, we don't do testing, you are still the guinea pigs" anyway? Why would we believe that the approach to e.g. Flow will be any better? Fram (talk) 14:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Problems with French communes

Articles like Sainte-Croix-sur-Mer take very, very long to open in VE (although, probably due to caching, it goes a lot faster on a second try), and have troubles displaying their contents correctly in VE.

In the infobox, the red dots that show where the subject is located on the maps, are totally off.

It is also rather annoying that some templates take up much more "blue" (selected) space than actual space. This is most obvious with the (invisible!) "clear-left" template (beneath the "historical populations" template)

This made me also realise another problem with VE. Imagine that you find the population figures for 1932, and want to add them to the hist pop template. In wikitext, this is very easy. In VE, this is extremely laborious in comparison. Not user friendly at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fram (talk • contribs) 2013-11-15T14:28:57

Odd: it took me only six or seven seconds to open that page (for the first time). Perhaps there was a general slowdown when you were editing?
The red dots are completely off the map for me. I'm not sure that it's entirely reasonable for VisualEditor to process that code, though. Have you looked at Template:Infobox settlement?
I think the size of clear-left might depend on the size of the element directly above it.
I agree that some kinds of templates are harder to work with in VisualEditor, especially the ones with unnamed parameters. It would be nice if infobox-type templates could have their contents directly edited. I'm not sure why this is set up as a template though: it's just a basic table. Also, did you notice the location of the puzzle icon for the historical population data? For me, it's all the way over on the right-hand side of the screen (the far right of the infobox, just above the map of France). Does the same thing happen to you? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:36, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It took me like 5 seconds to load in Chrome; the issue with the map is a known one. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 22:17, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
While my "very long" was about minutes, not seconds, I still don't think that 6 seconds to open a page of 1403 bytes is really acceptable... (It opens very fast in wikitext mode). But for me, in VE, it now also opens in a few seconds, so that part seems to have been a temporary glitch. As for "I'm not sure why this is set up as a template though: it's just a basic table."; it makes calculations for you, has tooltips, and anyway, table editing in VE sucks big time, so it wouldn't solve this problem anyway! The advantage of using a template is obviously also that you get consistency across all our articles, instead of everyone having their own table, with extra columns, colours, headers, interpretations, ... And yes, the puzzle icon is at the far right, as usual with most templates (e.g. with the stub template as well). That is a known annoying aspect of VE which I usually don't bother to mention even. Fram (talk) 08:11, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"I'm not sure that it's entirely reasonable for VisualEditor to process that code, though." The template "infobox settlement" is transcluded more than 400,000 times, i.e. this is used on ca 1 in 10 of our articles, as a major visual aspect of it. The template football kit (below), which may have the same or a very similar issue, is used on an additional 25,000 pages. Template chembox, used on nearly 10,000 additional pages, same problem. Not enough? Template taxobox, used on yet another distinct group of 234,000 pages, has the same problem as well... I think it is entirely reasonable to expect a VisualEditor to process our most often used, very prominent templates correctly on an essential visual aspect of them. If that means redesigning the templates, the some VE devs can come over and fix it as far as I am concerned. But simply accepting that these templates will not be rendered correctly in VE is (once again) throwing the arms up in defeat and admitting that VE will never deliver what it set out to do. Fram (talk) 08:27, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And while we're at it, you may add the 45,000 transclusions of Template:Infobox NRHP as well. Fram (talk) 10:55, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If I'm double counting somehow, please correct me, but otherwise you may add to the above another 146,000 instances of Template:Location map... I think personally that it is entrely reasonable to expect a VisualEditor to correctly precess visual elements used on 1/5th of the Wikipedia articles if it wants to be taken seriously, but YMMV. Fram (talk) 12:55, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The hack that is causing this is to make sure that other absolute positioned elements don't cause even more havoc in VE. I've added a bit more info to the ticket. The absolute positioned elements (topicon, coordinates, FA/GA icons etc) have always been rather problematic (with multiple breakages in the past) and this is another proof of how they complicate issues. It might be difficult to fix without making changes to the templates indeed. I guess that is why it has not been followed up yet. It falls into the 'glitch' category though I think. Many pages use this template, but it's not causing data corruption nor is it extremely visible to the uninitiated. By investigating this issue I did find 3 other bugs though that seem rather fundamental. So some good came out of it. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 17:20, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The DJ, thanks for your response, but I fear that your response at the ticket is again symptomatic of the incorrect view you and other devs seem to have. VisualEditor is not the goal, it is a means to make editing easier. Comments like "Ideally, we would just get rid of absolute positioned elements (.topicon, coordinates, FA/GA etc icons), but that's probably going to be near impossible." are so wrong that I feel it may be hard to explain to you what is the problem with it. There is absolutely nothing ideal about getting rid of these elements, they are a very useful aspect of maps and other position-defined elements. If VE can't handle these, then VE has to change or an alternative method that can be used in view mode and VE mode needs to be found. But "VE can't handle this, so we should get rid of these elements"? No, that's the opposite mindset of what we actually need. Fram (talk) 09:02, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As for "nor is it extremely visible to the uninitiated.", have you looked at pages like FC Barcelona or ant? I think most of the "uninitiated" would notice some differences in the display between fr:Azincourt and this (cause this bug happens on all wikis, not just here...) Fram (talk) 09:02, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Football kits: template used on 25,000 pages, doesn't work properly on VE

Pages like Bethesda Athletic F.C. don't look so good in VE. The infobox gets mangled. The same happens to more well-known clubs like Manchester United F.C., so I assume that every single club page has the same problem. The template football kit is used on nearly 25,000 pages... Fram (talk) 15:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder how different this really is from Template:Bug about placing red dots in specific, absolute positions. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:51, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can't save a new page!!!

I tried to create a new article TWICE but I wasn't able to save it!! The first time I clicked "Preview your changes" to take a look of it (I always do that) but the page kept loading and loading with no result! When I took the decision that nothing was going to happen, I said to give it one more try and start all over again. The second time around I skipped the "preview your changes" and I went straight to the "save"! Again the same thing happened! I left it like that for 20min hoping that it will be saved but nothing! It kept loading and loading! I faced the same issue with the previous article I created but the second time that one was saved and I thought that I just spent to much time to finish it because I left it open for a while and then came back to finish! But this time it was not the case! I am not willing to spend another 1-2hours to try for a third time! If this is a bug please fix it! I lost my work twice and till this gets solved I am not willing to take any risks again to create a page with VE and that makes me really sad because even though I can use the source to create a page with VE is so much easier! I am using Firefox 25, Windows 8. TeamGale 09:05, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As a stop-gap measure, You can C&P Your work to a word processor.Kdammers (talk) 09:29, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Believe me I did that...but it still needs a little editing when you copy/paste it back to WP! Because the references can't be copy/pasted. Neither the infoboxes etc! Only simple text can be copied! And re-find and add about 10 references takes time. Having said that, I don't believe C&P is the solution... TeamGale 09:45, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TeamGale, VE isn't intended to really create new pages, use images, use references, use templates, use wikitext, use ... well, anything apparently. You can use it to make some cosmetic or minor changes, but for anything slightly more complicated, you just have to be very lucky to be able to proceed correctly with it. This is intended to welcome new editors, increase editor retention, and keep Bugzilla filled until eternity. The only people really happy with Ve seem to be the people that developed it, I guess that their technical end-of-year target has been met, doesn't matter if anyone uses it or is satisfied with it. It now has been live on enwiki for nearly half a year and we are still at the most basic errors stage, which isn't surprising since the software isn't being tested in any significant way before being deployed. Happy editing! Fram (talk) 08:20, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is the kind of page you get with the new, intuitive, WYSIWYG editor. The big red error is corrected by the same editor using the wikitext editor[5], indicating how fast people move on from the new, better, editor to the old, much too complicated one. Don't you love irony and meta-irony? Fram (talk) 08:26, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fram With all do the respect, I am sorry but, I created around 70 articles and since the day I found VE I was only using VE. I created 40 articles out of 70 (more than 50%) with VE without having any problems of saving the page and without getting any errors! (This was my first with VE in case you want to take a look and this the last one I was able to save just 3 days ago!) If you are careful, avoid existing known bugs and don't forget anything, you won't get errors. The pages I am interested in creating, believe me VE can create them perfectly fine. I don't think I am delusional asking for this to get fixed.
To come and tell me after 40 articles that VE is not suppose to create new articles seems kind of funny to me. I might be a minority but, I am one of the few users (and also new user) who are happy with VE and I am using it a lot! I am switching between the two editors very easily and when there is something I know I can't do with VE, I use wikitext. I am not in the category of "how fast people move on from the new, better, editor to the old, much too complicated one", I don't give up easily and yes, I spent time to learn VE like I spent time to learn wikitext. And there were moments I got frustrated but like I said, I don't give up easily and after a while I could work with VE without having any major problems till now.
Anyway, what I am saying is that I was able to save a new page with VE before and now I can't. I don't know if this is a bug or not, but since it was something I could do in the past months and now I can't, I had to report it. Till this gets fixed, I will use wikitext to create any new pages the way I was doing it before VE, not because I prefer it but because right now I am forced to do it. Thanks again and thanks to all the WMF for their hard work these last months! Personally, I appreciate it a lot! TeamGale 10:40, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Good for you. Looking at your VE edits, I'm rather curious about what happened e.g. here Do you remember whether you mistyped somehow or whether VE mangled these? Fram (talk) 11:20, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That was a bug that was existing at the moment. When someone was trying to add categories with VE it was adding them like that. I missed it on my "review" before saving the edit. I only saw it after the save. I came here to report it but someone else had reported it already. It got fixed now :) TeamGale 16:06, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi TeamGale,
I'm sorry you're running into problems. Did you create the page you wanted in wikitext? I just created a simple page in my sandbox, so it's certainly possible right now. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:41, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Whatamidoing (WMF) Yes, I created the page with wikitext. I don't know if it has to do with how long is the page. I'll give it a try again with my next page using VE and I'll let you know. TeamGale 23:01, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks TeamGale: I'm afraid this might be not completely gone. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 23:06, 18 November 2013 (UTC) PS: On a second thought the two things might be completely unrelated, but yes, if we could come up with more details, that would still be great.[reply]
Hi TeamGale, if you run into this again, please post the name of the page that you ended up creating in wikitext. It's possible (but not very likely, I'd guess) that there is something specific about the page you were trying to create. Mine was quite small and simple (two sentences and a {{db-author}} tag), so perhaps bigger or more complex pages aren't working, even though little ones are. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:10, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Elitre (WMF) Hmm...yeah, I am not sure if the two are related because I didn't get any "error" message. Only the load bar loading for about 20min without result.
Whatamidoing (WMF) If that helps to find the issue earlier because I don't when I'll create a new page, that was the page I was trying to save: link. I saved the first half with wikitext and then added the second half with VE without having any problems. TeamGale 23:21, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This turned out to be an issue with one of the Varnish caches in production. It ran out of backend connections, which caused some requests to fail. Since this was so rare it was fairly difficult to track down. Sorry for the inconvenience. -- Gabriel Wicke (talk) 01:07, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see. Thanks for clarifying and explaining. That means everything will be OK now? If it happens again I'll let you know. Thanks again :) TeamGale 23:58, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Referencing with VisualEditor

Just tried out VisualEditor for the first time on ATV: Quad Frenzy - I was amazed, this really does look like the future. This will engender a massively improved user experience, I could honestly see this having a relatively large affect on editor retention. One piece of constructive criticism that prevents me from switching fully to VE is this - it has no ability (I believe) to integrate with the current reference gadget I use - it is one the far right of my editing toolbar, and is two {{ brackets on top of CITE, and two more }} brackets beneath that. This is a tool I use constantly when creating content and immeasurably useful, so to not be able to use it is in my view, the hamartia of VisualEditor at the moment. Would you consider integrating it? Keep up the amazing work! Acather96 (click here to contact me) 19:39, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is currently discussion about improving the Referencing with VisualEditor here, but unfortunately it's still in the very early planning stage. -- Ypnypn (talk) 01:49, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Acather96, please go to mw:VisualEditor/Design/Reference Dialog and post your views about the current proposals as well as what you believe is the ideal approach. I think this is a very popular idea among editors here, but, if only a few people show up to say so, then it might not look like anyone cares very much about it. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:04, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Error:Unknown error

When editing KLM, when I hit save page I got Error:Unknown error below the edit summary box and a greyed out save page button. However, the edit still saved without any indication that it did so. I actually went to save the page again, not thinking that it had done anything, but luckily checked the history and canceled before it could save (Monobook, Firefox 25, Windows 7):Jay8g [V•T•E] 19:40, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is odd: Apparently the second time I hit save it actually did save (see here), and decided to add quotes around everything, despite the fact that it did not do this during any normal edit, and it changed nothing else:Jay8g [V•T•E] 19:46, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi User:Jay8g,
I've run across that unknown error before, too, and it's always saved for me. I've never figured out what's causing it.
Adding the quotation marks around the ref name is (1) technically correct and (2) not supposed to be happening unless you edited that paragraph (or possibly unless the ref itself).
I'm wondering if these two might be related—if whatever caused the unknown error triggered the addition of the quotation marks. Does that seem plausible? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:17, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
AFAIK the Unknown error message is what you get when you edit a "large" article (I'm now convinced this defines possibly each article slightly larger than 100kb) and it may or may not result in the system actually being unable to save the edit (since you can also get it for apparently no reason). 53093 does not report anything about quotes, though. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 20:28, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This was likely an issue with one of the Varnish caches in production. It ran out of backend connections, which caused some requests to fail. Since this was so rare it was fairly difficult to track down. Sorry for the inconvenience. -- Gabriel Wicke (talk) 01:09, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can't see existing references

I looked the feedback page and I can't find if someone mentioned that. I don't know if it was mentioned before and it was archived but I think it's new. When I try to add a reference that already exists I can't see the list of them. I mean, when I was clicking to "choose an existing reference" in the past, I could read the whole references content. Now when I do that, I can only see the numbers of the references and not their content. To find which reference I need, I have to get out of the window, find it on the main text and see its number so I can choose it. I don't know if it has to do anything with it but, I feel like after the last VE update few days ago (last Thursday), some things got messed up :( TeamGale 23:03, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm seeing the same thing (FF 24.0, Mac OS). I can see just a few characters for a couple of references, on the far right of the dialog box, out of 20 or so, but essentially it's just numbers on the left side of the dialog box, and a vast empty space in the middle and right side. So, yes, "Use an existing reference" is completely f***ed up, now - yet another regression. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 05:36, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Same here with FF25 and W7. Start the week with a good laugh! Fram (talk) 08:21, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Filing it immediately. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 21:18, 18 November 2013 (UTC) . PS: now at 52709.[reply]
Thank you so much Elitre (WMF). Hope WMF can fix it soon because I think it's something that is used a lot. TeamGale 23:08, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I see the full name of the refs in Safari 6, but none of their contents. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:06, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Quick! Hide in the middle of the text!

The handling of hidden elements (some templates like italictitle, persondata, ...; and of course categories) in VE really messes up the wikitext layout of pages. See e.g. here, where a whole lot of text is added after the persondata and categories, but before the stub tag. While this happens in wikitext editing as well, in VE it is much easier and can be done by editors not wanting to do this but getting this result anyway. Luckily, the editor noticed this and corrected it in the wikitext editor[6], which again makes one wonder what the added value of VE is. Fram (talk) 08:56, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Stuck in a pop-up

I went to make a simple edit (addition of one word before a blue link) in Osteon, using VE (Firefox/ME7). I wanted to check if the blue-link article (I believe it is 'cortical bone') also needed the edit. After I moused over the blue-link and got a pop-up, I could not do any-thing after that. I couldn't close the pop-up; I couldn't type in the article text; I couldn't save; I couldn't exit. The only way out was to close with-out saving. Kdammers (talk) 06:54, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is ME7 a mobile/smartphone system? Although it is possible to open VisualEditor on some tablets and smartphones, it is not supported yet. I wouldn't be surprised if very little of it worked, and I wouldn't recommend it. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:55, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, I meant Windows Explorer in Windows 7 - on a normal PC.Kdammers (talk) 14:10, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Page notice too small

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T52885

Opening Cat in VE (FF25, W7) opens the edit notice. Due to the very small box, I can not see the whole edit notice though, and it is apparently impossible to scroll down in it or to it. Furthermore, the functionality it had in wikitext editing (click "show" to display the long text) doesn't work in VE, it is automatically shown and no show-hide button is available. The two big red lines of text also partially overlap, again due to the small window of the page notice (WMF devs seems to like small windows, see also Flow...). Fram (talk) 08:41, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, this has been noted before I think, but a reminder can't hurt. Individual page notices, like the one above, are (more or less) shown, but general ones (like the BLP notice you get on every page in cat:living people) are apparently not shown. Which is of course a pity... Fram (talk) 12:39, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pages that go wrong in VE

December office hours for VE

If you missed Maggie Dennis' announcement on wikimedia-l, please see my message here. See you there, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 15:29, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Just to expand: The next set of office hours for VisualEditor:
    • Monday, December 2, 1900 UTC
    • Tuesday, December 3, 0100 UTC.

(No harm reproducing date/time in multiple venues - much better than forcing the clicking of a link.) Risker (talk) 15:50, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More things that go wrong in VE

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T59295
Tracked in Phabricator
Task T59296
Tracked in Phabricator
Task T59299

No ref list

I just added two references to an article on Clarence Mulford that had no references. When I finally got them in, the VE announced that I didn't have a references list format. No, I didn't, since I was using VE and not wikiedit. There seemed to be no way to add such a thing (and why isn't it automatic in VE?), so I just went into wikiedit and added it. Kdammers (talk) 14:07, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This can be done in VE by going to the "more" section on the toolbar, and choosing either "reference list", which will add the same as you did in wikitext, or by choosing "transclusion" in the same "more" drop down menu. Note that with the latter, you don't actually see the result in VE mode, only after you have saved, which is of course annoying. None of this is very intuitive though... Fram (talk) 14:38, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Which is why the reference dialog is being revamped, and in the future we might even have VE add the reference list autonomously when it's needed. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:42, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

When turned on

I imagine that in several months, or in over a year, I'm not sure, VE will be deployed again on the English Wikipedia. When I have it enabled in my preferences I see "edit source" vs. "edit beta". Can this be changed? Why can't we have "edit" and "edit visual" when it comes back out? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:56, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

When the WMF thinks it is no longer a Beta version, they will probably propose to turn it back into opt-out and to change the name (labels on the display I mean). I suppose that an RfC will be had then to determine whether the editing community here agrees with that assessment and these proposals. This doesn't look to be something that will happen in the near future (next six months) though, IMO. Fram (talk) 15:13, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Right now (to edit this section), I clicked an "edit source" tab instead of an "edit" tab. Can that be changed back to "edit"? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 15:47, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Biosthmors: It is possible to use custom javascript/css to change the labels - there are some simple instruction at User:Evad37/rename editors that should work (no guarantees, though) for renaming "Edit source" to "Edit" (as per before VisualEditor), and renaming "Edit beta" to "VE". - Evad37 [talk] 16:40, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that anyone on staff is spending much time thinking about these details right now. However, in past discussions with other editors, the following arguments against your proposed changes keep reappearing: "Edit source" is parallel with "View source" (the label you see if the page is fully protected); "Edit" vs "Edit source" correctly implies that VisualEditor is the less technical option; and, since many people work at more than one WMF wiki, there is value in being consistent with what the other ~270 Wikipedias and hundreds of other non-Wikipedia WMF projects are doing (so that if you go to another project, you'll have a reasonable chance of figuring out the interface). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:43, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, "Edit" vs. "Edit source" implies that VE is the default editing option, which it isn't and won't be for a long time probably. "Edit source" vs. "Edit visual" may be acceptable as being sufficiently neutral perhaps. Fram (talk) 22:43, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Can we change "View source" to "View", then? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:40, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Indentation

I don't know if this is a bug, a quirk, a trait, or a statement by VE; but out of curiosity, I tried to put something into real-world style, i.e., start a paragraph with an indentation. I did this because, aside from the fact that I really dislike the block style, new editors might also try this. What I got was a message that I had made no change, so my "editing" would be abandoned. Interesting. Kdammers (talk) 02:59, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You can have numbered or bulleted lists in VE, and then change their indentation. As a VE developer noted here, "we don't support any sort of indentation outside of lists yet". There are several bug related to indentation, but 48010 looks like the one you'd be more interested in following. Thanks, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:53, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Numbered list blank line

Take a page with:

#One
#
#Two
In view mode this appears something like:

1.  One
2.  Two

In VE it appears something like:

1.  One
2.
3.  Two

Firefox 25.0.1; Windows 7 Professional SP1 64-bit; Monobook skin. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 06:07, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The disappearing list item is a long-standing bug in tidy which is used by the PHP parser. See bugzilla:47673. -- Gabriel Wicke (talk) 18:05, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Select all, clear

This listing on Buzilla says "RESOLVED FIXED" for its status.

If I go to Plato, enter VE, right click, select all, and then press some letter or number, a pawn will appear. Also, if I review changes, there is still material left is the "your text" section. Firefox 25.0.1; Windows 7 Professional SP1 64-bit; Monobook skin. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 06:37, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, do you manage to get that also for this page? Because with your same configuration, I don't, so this depends on the page you're editing, I think. On some of my sandboxes, after I select all the text, nothing happens if I start to type. On others, the text will go away as expected, the typed letters will appear regularly, and if I check the diff there's nothing particular to notice. When I can reproduce what you describe instead, it will get even weirder, but it takes me a few more passages. I'm going to describe details in a bug now. Thanks for reporting this. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 13:35, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Now at 57355. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:45, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Say I want to make:
[w]
How would I do this simply in VE? Whenever I select the template and go to the link inspector, after I type in the destination for the link and leave the inspector, it inserts a new anchor with the same text as the destination. The work around I found was to type text on either side of the template, and then select all of that text and the template, and then turn that into the link, and then afterwards delete the unneeded text. Is that the optimal way? Firefox 25.0.1; Windows 7 Professional SP1 64-bit; Monobook skin.--Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 07:10, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Line with template, pawn

Take a page that has only {{ipa|w}} in the source. E.g., [7]. Enter VE. Place cursor after the template. Cursor key left. This selects the template. Cursor left again. Template is deselected and cursor is placed to the left of the template, at the start of the line. Press "a". A pawn appears and is selected. Firefox 25.0.1; Windows 7 Professional SP1 64-bit; Monobook skin. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 07:18, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Testing this (FF25, W7, Vector) in live articles with IPA, I get the same and different (but probably related) issues. First, I get the "reverse typing" bug frighteningly easy. Go to Hanki, put your cursor somewhere after the IPA template, move back with the arrows until you select the IPA and then once more, and start typing... Opposite works as well, cursor in front of IPA, right, right (so the cursor is after the IPA, and start typing backwards! Try again: cursor in front of IPA, move right (with arrow) beyong the IPA until the cursor is just in front of the first wikilink (village) (or any other wikilink in the article). Start typing, and you get a pawn. You can get other amusing effects by testing different situations (like a case where you can type one character, and the second and all following ones are again pawns), but I don't think listing these will help in pinpointing and solving this (old) problem.

It is also not restricted to IPA, it seems that any template can cause this issue. On Selan (Dungeons & Dragons), put your cursor at the start of the text (ie before "In the..."), arrow left (select infobox), arrow left (deselect infobox), start typing; pawn! If, on the other hand, you use arrow left (select infobox), arrow right (nothing, a bug in its own right), arrow right (cursor is in front of "In the..."), start typing, you again start typing backwards. On refs, I get the reverse; the backwards typing happens when I end in front of the ref number, the pawn happens when I start typing to the right of the reference (a always, after selecting and deselecting it using the arrows). Fram (talk) 09:50, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We also have reports of pawns and snowmen on frwiki one week ago: fr:Wikipédia:ÉditeurVisuel/Avis#Bonhommes_de_neige.2C_et_br, fr:Wikipédia:ÉditeurVisuel/Avis#Pions. But no answers about them. --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 10:15, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have created a new issue for this, since it doesn't seem to match any of the more specific "fixed" ones. Fram (talk) 10:36, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T59347
Expanded a bit on Bugzilla. Also reported 57358 reported on fr.wp. For your bug about the snowman, Nico, sorry I didn't get to that before. I wouldn't know how to reproduce; would you? (I don't think that a particular character in that word generated it, or fr.wp would be invaded by armies of snowmen; I suspect a copy/paste problem). As said in the past, asking the editor looks like the best option if we can't provide details about how the error is generated. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 16:04, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Elitre, I don't know how to reproduce it: copy/paste problem seems possible but strange because the line has not been modified, except for an added br at the end (which is also useless, because br are never necessary or useful at the end of a list element). I'm not interested in tracking how problems were created (I would probably be more enthusiast if it was a beta test, and not an unfinished application delivered to every one for almost 5 months), I'm just reporting some of the incorrect edits made by/with VE when I stumble upon them. --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 16:59, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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