Talk:Battle of Praga

Title is POV

I think the title is POV. The google test ("massacre of Praga" 1794 -wikipedia) [1] gives only WP mirrors. OTOH (1794 "Battle of Warsaw " -wikipedia)[2] gives much more. Please do not take this as if I challange the massacre. I just think we need to use the most established term. Why wasn't the article called Battle of Warsaw (1794)? --Irpen 05:59, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

Good idea. The article should be moved to the Battle of Praga. --Ghirlandajo 07:20, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'd think the massacre of Praga was only a part of the main battle. Not sure if we need to move it - I'd say yes if sb would write an article about the rest of the battle, then this can became a section. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 13:07, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I just judge from what I read in the article. Take another look. The massacre (and as of now I can neither argue against nor for the fact that the massacre did happen) is only a small part. The article is about a much broader battle. The topic about a massacre itself may deserve an article. But currently, the article about the battle (which simply redirects here) carries a POV title because it implies that the battle and the massacre is one an the same thing. --Irpen 04:20, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

I think I agree with you. But I'd like to point out that at least from the Polish POV, the massacre is much more important (and infamous) then the battle itself. Bottom line is, if sb wants to write the article on the battle, I'd strongly approve, and I don't see what else can we do? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:10, 7 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think we already have an article about the battle. If somebody wants to write an article about a massacre or spin off the massacre info from here into a separate article and call it a "Massacre of Praga", it's fine with me. I also would not mind if a massacre, which may seem like a more significant event to editors, would become a larger and more detailed than a battle article, which might generate less interest from editors.

Perhaps this was intitially intended to be a massacre article. However, it was expanded and what we have now is an article about a battle which is called "a massacre", a POV title for the battle article. What worries me even more is the creation of the battle article as a redirect to massacre.

As I see it now, this battle article has to be moved to a neutral title or carry a Template:POV-title tag. There is a workaround too, if editors approve. The info from here can be pasted in place of the redirect and the massacre info can be left here with a prominent link from the battle. The move seems more correct from the formal point of view but is more cumbersome. I would like to hear others' opinions on these suggestions. --Irpen 04:21, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

It isn't called massacre in Poland

The correct name of the event is named rzeź Pragi not masakra Pragi. You can easly check it on google.Correctly translated it should be named Slaughter of Praga, or Carnage of Praga.Two paintings about it are also called Rzeź Praska not Masakra. --Molobo 23:09, 24 November 2005 (UTC) Here an example of naming it such way: http://jewish.sites.warszawa.um.gov.pl/jj.htm 'Prayers were recited in Praga synagogues on the anniversary of the Praga slaughter. The metal goods factory of Józef Rosenthal, built in 1904, and converted by the Lejzorowicz brothers in 1919 into a tannery, survives on this little street.' --Molobo 23:12, 24 November 2005 (UTC) Another example : http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~mstaum/hist329/intrel.html 1794-Kosciuszko revolt in Poland led to Russian and Prussian invasion-slaughter or civilians by Russians in Praga suburb of Warsaw-20,000 deaths in autumn --Molobo 23:14, 24 November 2005 (UTC) So if you want to give a name under which it is known in Poland it should be Slaughter of Praga. --Molobo 23:15, 24 November 2005 (UTC) Also here is decleration of officials from the district about this event : http://www.pragapld.waw.pl/news.php?id=130 --Molobo 23:15, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice if those opposed to Molobo's edits would actually explain their views on talk.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:49, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think this fragment is properly referenced and after some NPOVing it can be useful for the article. Comments about NPOVing it? PS. The source is discussed at Talk:Alexander_Suvorov#From_my_talk_page.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:28, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Russian historians and writers have tried to justify this massacre as an revenge for Polish conquest of Moscow in 1612.In 1831 when Russians once again crushed a Polish uprising against Russia's occupation of Poland Alexander Pushkin wrote "we smashed babies over the ruins of Praga" and declared that he is generous enough not to demand the destruction of whole Warsaw as the slaugher served its purpose[3].

anti-polonism

Putting this in the anti-polonism category is against the NPOV spirit. Pascal.Tesson 04:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And how come murdering thousands of people just because they were Poles is not an effect of some anti-Polish sentiments? //Halibu tt 07:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To quote Russian soldiers from the massacre "We shall kill Poles like dogs for Poles have tried to defy our rule". --Molobo 08:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Source?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Source: Dzieje Insurekcji Kościuszkowskiej, Kazimierz Bartoszewicz.

--Molobo 15:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have the page number? I am not sure if we can link directly to a page like with Google Print. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 18:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Molobo, Pushkin wrote about Massacre in his Poem quite the opposite to what you claim. I am sure you can find the translation of full version and post it here. The other part of your edit is just as worthy. Consider adding cat:anti-Semitism to the articles of a whole lot of military "heroes" who "fought" for Poland as well as Russophobia to, say, Sigismund. --Irpen 15:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Totallydisputed

To begin with:

cat:Anti-Polonism persisted with by certain users is highly questionable. It is no more applicable than cat:Anti-Semitism or cat:Russophobia with respect to certain Polish historic figures and events that involved Poland
In Russian historiography, if this is connected with anything at all, it is with the Massacre of the Russian garrison in Warsaw that preceeded this event, not to something centuries ago
Pushkin in his poem avalable here titled to Gustav Olizar, a friend of his and a red link for now, wrote quite the contrary of what the article tries to present and the quote is taken out of the context. It's not what I think on what he wrote. It's just the direct words. The poem starts with the introduction of where he recalls the past conflicst and ends with him speaking of the hope for peace that will bbe brought through the friendship of the arts people.

Russian original with the literal translation under lines

ГРАФУ ОЛИЗАРУ.
_{(To Count Olizar)}

Певец! издревле меж собою
_{(Bard! From ancient times)}
Враждуют наши племена:
_{(our peoples are feuding)}
То [наша] стонет сторона,
_{(Either our side is groaning)}
То гибнет ваша под грозою.
_{(or yours perishes in thunder)}

И вы, бывало, пировали
_{(You celebrated)}
Кремля [позор и] плен,
_{(the shame and capture of Kremlin)}
И мы о камни падших стен
_{(and we over the rocks of the fallen walls)}
Младенцев Праги избивали,
_{(crashed the heads of your babies)}
Когда в кровавый прах топтали
_{(when we were tramped into the bleeding ashes)}
Красу Костюшкиных знамен.
_{(the beautiful pride of Koscuszko's banners)}

И тот не наш, кто с девой вашей
_{(Isn't ours is the one who with your woman)}
Кольцом заветным сопряжен;
_{(is tied by the sacred ring)}
Не выпьем мы заветной чашей
_{(and we won't drink the cherished joram)}
Здоровье ваших красных жен;
_{(to the health of your beautiful women (wives))}
[И наша дева молодая,]
_{(and our young girl)}
Привлекши сердце поляка,
_{(who attracted the heart of the Pole)}
[Отвергнет,] [гордостью пылая,]
_{(will reject shining with the pride)}
Любовь народного врага.
_{(the love of the enemy of the people)}

Но глас поэзии чудесной
_{(But the voice of the wonderwul poetry)}
Сердца враждебные дружит —
_{(appeaces the hostility of hearts)}
Перед улыбкою небесной
_{(in front of the smile of the sky)}
Земная ненависть <?> молчит,
_{(the earthly hatred is silenced)}
При сладких <?> звуках вдохновенья,
_{(with the sweet sounds of inspiration)}
При песнях <лир>...
_{(with songs of lires)}
И восстают благословенья,
_{(the blessings resurrect)}
На племена <?> [ни] сходит мир....
_{(and the peace comes to people)}

Very inflammatory poetry and a good example of hatred towards Poles. Right Molobo? --Irpen 20:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

An English translation would be nice. And let me repeat that your, or mine, or Molobo's interpretation of the poem cannot overrule an academic reference like Janusz Tazbir's book.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 20:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If only you read carefully, Piotrus, what others write at talk pages. English translation is right there, between lines, for which I spent quite some time to write. --Irpen 20:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see, the layout was quite confusing, fixed now. I feel we are talking about a different poems (or parts of it).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 20:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And, besides, now I got how the bizarre connection allegedly made by the Russian historiohraphy and how this poem popped up with this. Pushkin simply cites Praga and Kremlin in this very poem as examples of the wrongs the countries did to each other. Nowhere he writes that they are connected and that one justifies the other. We do have sources that connect Praga with Warsaw, OTOH, and Piotrus have seen them too. I will give a literal translation to the rest of the poem. And there isn't another one. --Irpen 20:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pushkin simply cites Praga and Kremlin in this very poem as examples of the wrongs the countries did to each other. So he compares a massacre of innocent civilians of Poland to unfortunate involvment of Polis nobility on the side of one of factions that opposed the Muscovy ? Seems very POV. But I am not to judge this. Fortunetley Tazbir did it for us. Personally I believe that comparing the two is completely out of place and justification of Russian imperialism towards Poland, for which Puszkin became infamous in later days of his life. --Molobo 20:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, we had a related discussion with Pushkin and Mickiewicz at Talk:Russophobia#Irpen.27s_comment. I think we need to address several issus here. I will translate the related para from Tazbir's article, it is quite short:

"Aleksander Puszkin w wierszu Oszczercom Rosji nazywa postępowanie Suworowa słusznym odwetem za spalenie Moskwy. Ponieważ poeta uznał dziejowy rachunek za wyrównany, przeto „wspaniałomyślnie” nie domagał się już zniszczenia Warszawy. Nieco wcześniej zaś pisał: „Bywało, żeście świętowali sromotę Kremla, carów pęta. I myśmy wszak niemowlęta o gruzy Pragi rozbijali”.

Alexander Pushkin in a poem "Defamers of Russia" (Piotrus note: quick and dirty translation) calls Suvorov's action a justified revenge for the burning of Moscow (Piotrus note: presumably during the Dymitriads). Since the poet saw the historical acounts balanced, he "mercifuly" did not demand the desctruction of Warsaw. And earlier he wrote: "It was, that you celebrated the shame of Kreml, tsar's enslavement. But so did we crushed infants on Praga's ruins."

All things considered, Tazbir gives more examples then just Puskhin's poem, and his main argument is that that Russian hisorians justified Praga mostly not because of the earlier uprising but because of the Dymitriads, and that such interpreations or ommissions of the information of the massacre can be found in modern Russian sources (he cites a 2000 textbook).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 21:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]