Talk:Jean Renoir

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The unreferenced quote "the pitcher goes to the well so often that it eventually breaks" is a word-for-word translation of a famous French saying "tant va la cruche à l'eau qu'à la fin elle se casse". In French, there is a play on word, since "cruche" means pitcher, and by extension a "airhead" often describing young witless women. Hence the famous play on word by Beaumarchais in "Le mariage de Figaro" about a silly young servant girl who goes to the well to fetch water where she messes around with the son of the masters and gets pregnant "tant va la cruche à l'eau qu'à la fin elle s'emplit" ("the pitcher goes to the well so often that it eventually fills up"). 77.58.147.83 (talk) 23:25, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

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Pronunciation

How is his name pronounced? Is it Ren-Wah? or Rono-ar? --74.139.220.180 09:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

List of influenced directors

I would suggest this is deleted. The impact he had on Luchino Visconti and Satyajit Ray is mentioned in the articles about the films on which they worked (Toni and Thje River). The two film makers should be the body of this article too. Toni was significant in the the development of Renoir's methods of working (on location and with direct sound), so the films absence from the text (as opposed to credits) with a mention of Visconti should not be difficult to put right. Adding Ray to the passage on The River would be even easier.

The inclusion of the other names with these citations are more problematic. In the source for Jean-Marie Straub and Danièle Huillet they cite Renoir as an example in points they wish to make, rather than as an influence. In the case of Éric Rohmer, the cite is to a programme of the Harvard Film Archive, which would normally be a blue chip reliable source, but the reference to Renoir is in passing and is the opinion of the anonymous writer, not Rohmer himself. Even when the citation is explicitly citing Renoir as an influence, the actual comment seems too slight and casual. Robert Altman says in his cited article: "Everything I've learned has come from watching other directors: Bergman, Fellini, Kurosawa, Huston and Renoir." And that is it. The quote says something about Altman himself with concision, but as far as Renoir is concerned it is just a name check. It reads as too throwaway a comment for the weight which is being put upon it here. The same can be said about the Bogdanovitch source, and I think I have checked enough of the references to stand by my advocacy of their removal. Excepting a mention of Ray and Visconti for the reasons asserted earlier. Philip Cross (talk) 19:09, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Visconti and Ray, Straub and Huillet can be removed if you feel it's improperly sourced but Morris, Altman, Truffaut and Bogdanovich clearly all state being influenced by Renoir and as such qualify to be there. I'm puzzled why you question Altman so much... is stating that he learned EVERYTHING somehow not enough for you? i'm sure you know he is also on record as quipping "Rules of the Game taught me the rules of the game" and as for Rohmer, remove him if you will but i don't believe you really question he was influenced by Renoir, Rohmer was a major figure of the French New Wave was he not? Poetic realism

was a major influence on the French New Wave was it not? Jean Renoir was a major figure of Poetic realism was he not?

I'm surprised you find any of the sources problematic. As far as I can tell, they all confirm that Renoir was an influence on their work. And the most logical place to put this information is in the Legacy section. This is the standard practice, as it's where a reader would expect to find it. His influence shouldn't be hidden among the "Career" text. I think all the entire sentence should stay: it would be a shame not to indicate the massive influence Renoir has had. --Loeba (talk) 14:56, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

The Orson Welles quote already implies the extent of his influence. A comment from a prominent critic or writer on the director is all that is needed to indicate Renoir's influence. As it is, the list will become unwieldy in due course; the "standard practice" often leads to this problem. Editors will find a link between Renoir and their favorite director, perhaps stumbling over a citation which will just about do, and then add his name. Given his "massive influence" this may be inevitable. Deletion is still the best option. Philip Cross (talk) 16:27, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

OK, I've looked at the other citations, and they are largely as problematic as I had assumed. The two references to Renoir in the Erroll Morris article for The Paris Review merely state that he saw the French director's work along with "a steady diet" of examples from the oeuvre of other film makers. He compares the work of Frederick Wiseman, the subject of the article, to Renoir and several of his peers. Nothing here about "influence." Mike Leigh is mostly compared with Renoir by the author of the cited study. It is stated that his TV play/film Kiss of Death (1977) is "indebted" (The Films of Mike Leigh, p.70) to the structure of Boudu Saved from Drowning, but that is all. It should be used in the article about the Mike Leigh work rather than here. The influence of one film directed by Renoir on one work of Leighs cannot be taken as being true of all of the British film makers work being influenced by the Frenchman. Yet this is the assumption which follows from citing Leigh in this list of 'influenced directors'. The Truffaut interview contains the most substantial comments about Renoir by anyone in this list of references, but as with Ray and Visconti, should be used to expand this comparatively short article. Philip Cross (talk) 17:34, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

What if the passage was changed to read "Filmmakers as diverse as... have spoken of their respect for the director" you at least agree they have all shown admiration for Renoir — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.43.24.242 (talk) 19:31, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

It would not be true of all the references, they vary in nature a good deal. Unfortunately, your idea is vague enough to encourage an endless list which is I have argued is best prevented. Philip Cross (talk) 19:41, 23 December 2013 (UTC)