Talk:Cuba

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External Links

Official

Suggested addition to Official Links: Link to Official Site of Cuban Embassy in Ottawa, Canada: http://embacu.cubaminrex.cu/canadaingl/

Economy

I'd like to remove the sentence at the end about what the revolution caused for the private media. It isn't about how the economy is at present. Teemu Ruskeepää 14:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions

Discussion management

Umm... I have commented many times on Talk:Cuba but now I can't find any of my comments, perhaps due to them being moved to archives. Nevertheless, I can't get to them even via my contributions links. I think that rather than burying old discussions into an inaccessible arcive, the list should be organized. Make a categorial order which deepens in an orderly fashion. I've thought of a basic root of all the present headings in the article and a more general "suggestions" tree. Suggestions handle only the non-written ideas and the subtitle sections handle only the written ideas. When something becomes written, it should be moved in the discussion from suggestions to a permanent subtitle section. Teemu Ruskeepää 07:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposed paragraphs

Ultramarine and BruceHallman have agreed that the below paragraphs are acceptable, in keeping with the policy to keep controversial material away from the main page and onto subarticles. I have added the disclaimer (before the Castro revolution) to the health section, which I hope means that less historically motivated users do not misunderstand the context as appeared to be the case before.

Health

(remove WHO stats) The Cuban government operates a national health system and assumes full fiscal and administrative responsibility for the health care of its citizens. Historically, Cuba has long ranked high in numbers of medical personnel and has made significant contributions to World Health since the 19th Century. According to World Health Organization statistics, life expectancy and infant mortality rates in Cuba have been comparable to Western industrialized countries since such information was first gathered in 1957 (before the Castro revolution).

See main article Public health in Cuba

Education

Historically, Cuba has had some of the highest rates of education and literacy in Latin America, both before and after the revolution. All education is free to Cuban citizens including university education. Private educational institutions are not permitted. School attendance is compulsory from ages 6 to 16 and all students, regardless of age or gender, wear school uniforms with the color denoting grade level. Primary education lasts for six years, secondary education is divided into basic and pre-university education. Higher education is provided by universities, higher institutes, higher pedagogical institutes, and higher polytechnic institutes. The Cuban Ministry of Higher Education also operate a scheme of Distance Education which provides regular afternoon and evening courses in rural areas for agricultural workers.

See main article Education in Cuba

These two paragraphs can replace the present sections meaning that the page can be unlocked to registered users. --Zleitzen 13:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I Agree. Teemu Ruskeepää 16:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Military

Where an earth is the military section? I found a Wikipedia version at [1] Teemu Ruskeepää UPDATE: I found it at Military_of_Cuba, but I think I should be linked here. Teemu Ruskeepää 15:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

You're right Teemu, good spot. Here's my proposed paragraph for the military section--Zleitzen 16:22, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Under Fidel Castro, Cuba became a highly militarized society. From 1975 until the late 1980s, massive Soviet military assistance enabled Cuba to upgrade its military capabilities. Since the loss of Soviet subsidies Cuba has dramatically scaled down the numbers of military personnel, from 235,000 in 1994 to about 60,000 in 2003. The government now maintains a state security apparatus under the Ministry of Interior, spending roughly 1.8% of GDP on military expenditures.

See Also Military of Cuba

Ok, that's good. Teemu Ruskeepää 16:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmmmmmmmm I see Teemu has forgotten the Militia. El Jigue 5-30-06

Apparently my documented comments on the composition of the forces in the attack on the palace has been consigned to the archives, thus the "truck" jpg still says Directorio when in reality the forces were mainly Autentico. El Jigue 5-30-06

El, Jigue - I've made a note of a number of your points here: User:Zleitzen/Cuba history sandbox to be looked at when the page is unlocked. I'll change the truck jpg when that happens.--Zleitzen 23:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The first sentence of the Military History paragraph makes no sense: Cuba is not a society, per se, but rather a country, and very rarely is a society militarized—perhaps a geographical area, but not a society. To make the sentence less ambiguous and more neutral, I suggest: "Under Fidel Castro, Cuba experienced a rapid expansion of its military." "Militarized society" evokes images of soldiers marching through the streets and supressing civilians with an iron fist. I don't think it is the intent of the sentence to characterize Cuba as a police state. If it is, then that's not a neutral statement. -- WGee 03:28, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Fair question WGee. Though here is a "Militarized society" source [2]. Also it should be noted that the Committee for the Defense of the Revolution (CDR) was in an internal military wing - plus the Military Units to Aid Production (UMAPS), that were designed to reeducate counter revolutionaries, gays, etc. About two-thirds of the members of the party’s original Central Committee were military officers or veterans of the guerrilla struggle - and the FAR is probably still the most consistently powerful institution ahead of the Communist Party and so on. In this sense Cuba 1959-89(ish) was no different to most other Latin American countries which could also be described as "Militarized societies".--Zleitzen 04:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, to be honest, a Military History section should not exist. All of these points about the build-up of Cuba's military have to be included in the main history section—in their historical context. You don't find many history textbooks that discuss military history out of the context of political change or war. -- WGee 23:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a military section in the pages of the United Kingdom, the United States, France etc and almost all other nation pages.--Zleitzen 23:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a distinct difference between a military history section and a section that discusses the current state of the military. And since those articles are not featured, they cannot be used as archetypes, anyway. -- WGee 02:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead and write the military section the way you see fit, WGee - if you know more about Cuba's military structure. It matters little to me whether it's in or not - but something has to appear on the page to link it to the page Military of Cuba. Featured articles such as Australia and People's Republic of China carry such a section so we're not pushing the boat out here. As for the history, it's almost impossible to describe Cuba's military without referring to the Soviet past - it was the Soviets that provided Cuba's current military apparatus.--Zleitzen 03:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, all this time I thought you writing a Military history section, so you can disregard my last two comments. I'm still very concerned, however, with the fact that your proposed paragraph does not cite sources; nor does the main article. WGee 20:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Review my comments above where I provide a source.--Zleitzen 03:13, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Although we can agree Cuba's armed forces and military command are very much 'integrated' into 'society', the overall 'work' description when it comes to the people, is no different than the United States's Corp of Engineering...with this I would like to implied that if 'militarized society' is giving a negative description it should be done from 'top to bottom'...

Also, as where 'militias' are given the description of 'trouble makers, disturbers of peace, causing trouble', it is highly unlikely for Cuba's militias to fall under this mantra. Armed conflicts in Cuba has been non-existent after Cuba's Revolution.

Furthermore, the fuction of each country's military must also be described when attempting to reach an aggrement on 'militarized society'. for example, if the overall 'theme' of the military is to protect the population, then is very clear Cuba falls under that, where I would like to enclave this, is at the striking difference between Cuba's military and the military of those 'developed countries.

As a former Cuban soldier under compulsory service at sixteen years of age and a proud current civilian employee of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, I take grave exception regarding the comments above "he overall 'work' description when it comes to the people, is no different than the United State’s Corp of Engineering..." and the especially the comment regarding the supposedly striking difference between Cuba's military and the military of those developed countries: The United States Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) is made up of mostly civilian, voluntary, and well compensated employees; Totaling approximately 34,600 Civilian and 650 military members (http://www.usace.army.mil/who/)and it even includes several thousand non-us citizens (http://www.usace.army.mil/employment/noncitz.htm) in contrast the Cuban military where the service is not voluntary, anyone that does dares refuse, will not only be incarcerated, but will automatically lose their membership in the all important political groups including the University Students' Federation and the Federation of Secondary School Students which is prerequisite for acceptance to any educational institution of higher learning.

Now, it doesn't do much to state that 'brick layers' in the Corps are civilians..."Opportunities within the Continental US are rare for a Non Citizen, but the Corps of Engineers has operating offices in and outside the Continental US"...this is for what is worth...

For the great and 'noble' wars that the US are involved, service is not voluntary either(Vietnam and draft go together hand in hand) so in turn, is not surprising that in order for US students to receive Federal Aid, they must register with the Selective Service, after regestiring, if they are drafted and deciede not to serve, well incarceration occurs as well...

Now, if you would to tell me, that all the Cubans who are in the active duty military are there not under their will, that would be wrong, since the requierment is only for one year...

Furthermore, I would be amused if you or anyone could explain how the Cuban military protected the Cuban population when:

I'm not sure how you should take this...from Raul Castro's(General of the Cuban Army) speech on June 15 2006..."Assurance of victory is based on the blood of the fallen and on the rivers of sweat of Cubans who have worked to bring about our main goal – preventing war, the leader said during a ceremony commemorating the Western Army’s creation."

1. They were sent to butcher thousands in Angola and Ethiopia (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB67/cubatrans2.doc)or when

Only notably intervention by Cuba's troops in another country...hard to say the same for 'developed countries...it also seems to me, that other countries joined the fun...from wiki(After a 14 year independence guerrilla war, and the overthrow of fascist Portugal's government by a military coup, Angola's nationalist parties began to negotiate for independence in January 1975. Independence was to be declared in November 1975. Almost immediately, a civil war broke out between MPLA, UNITA and FNLA, exacerbated by foreign intervention. South African troops struck an alliance of convenience with UNITA and invaded Angola in August 1975 to ensure that there would be no interference (by a newly independent Angolan state) in Namibia, which was then under South African occupation (Hodges, 2001, 11). The Soviet Union began to aid the MPLA and gave much economical support, while Cuban troops came to the support of the MPLA in October 1975, enabling them to control the capital, Luanda, and hold off the South African forces. The MPLA declared itself to be the de facto government of the country when independence was formally declared in November, with Agostinho Neto as the first President.

In 1976, the FNLA was defeated by a combination of MPLA and Cuban troops, leaving the Marxist MPLA and UNITA (backed by the United States and South Africa) to fight for power.

2. One of their most highly decorated generals was caught red handed laundering money for south America’s drug lords along with interior minister (http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/fidelsreserves102097.html) At least he was given a trial unlike others military officials (http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuban-rebels/morgan-executed.htm) or maybe when

Iran-Contra comes to mind...and that was not a one man show...the funny thing about the General's story is, that often is cited as being totally false, that Castro made up all those drug charges against him in order to kill him because he was gaining too much power in the Cuban military...

3. They are sent as I was to play babysitter for escaped U.S. cop killers (http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=11530) or wait it must be when 4. They sent to evict their own people (http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y06/jun06/08e9.htm)

In neither of those stories the word military was mentioned at all, and if you need firepower to evict families in a Communist country or protect criminals from 'unarmed' civilians, something is wrong here...Those rare evictions in Cuba, was due for the illegal sale of houses, houses that most people don't pay for, but think they have the right to sell...Also, emminent domain comes to mind...

I could go on for some time, but I think it would be pointless since your opinions are obviously based on political ideology and leanings and mine have been shaped by my past and recent experiences. R.Ruiz 06/15/2006.

I very much doubt that you could go on, the only two action written in stone on the Cuban side when it comes to military issues abroad, is the Angola 'Civil War' and Che's fighting in Bolivia(and the latter is well, not all that revelant, since Bolivians themselves were doing the fighting)...

Now of course, in no way did I felt under attack, so I didn't feet the urge to defend my personal views, basicly I just wanted to reinfore what I stated at the beginning...what you get here is, that by you defending the actions on the US side, you will also defend the actions of the Cuban side as well...

Fabio Grobart forgotten

One notices that Fabio Grobart agent of the third international has been essentially erased from Cuban history, even if Castro did talk about his massive contributions to the foundation of the Cuban communist party (Third international, Stalinist). Amazing how Castro hogs credit even from this own teachers [3]. El Jigue 5-30-06

Thats sick how he does that...by the way men death tolls are quite high

Opening paragraph

Hispaniola contains two countries

As a critic clearly noted the island of Hispaniola has a greater population than Cuba; however, Hispaniola contains two countries Haiti and Dominican Republic. Just change island to country. El Jigue 5-30-06

Agree EJ. This shows the problem of letting administrators edit protected articles like that. -- Beardo 02:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree with EJ. Hispaniola is not a country at all, and thus can not be called so! It is right to mantain the word island because of its geographic nature, respecting the proper terminology. Gabriel

Ay vey! Gabriel Please read my first remark. Haiti and Santo Domingo may share an island but they are divided by a massive mountain range Pico Duarte is about 10,000 feet high and two different languages. Even the Tainos considered Haiti which means mountains distinct from Quiskeya which is a name the Dominicanos like to call their part of the Island. El Jigue 6-7-06

I think the point is that Cuba is the most populous country in the Caribbean - this is the point of note which should be mentioned in the introduction. The fact that it is the second most populous island is of (dare I say) secondary importance. -- Beardo 23:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably my fault - I originally and mistakenly wrote that it was the most populated island in the Caribbean. Forgot about Hispaniola - being two entities. tut tut.--Zleitzen 23:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Off-topic

Democracy in Cuba

Internet in Cuba

The matter of control of the internet arose in the latest OAA (Organization of American States) conference "At Washington's insistence, the final Declaration of Santo Domingo, which will be issued when the conference ends today, notes that the Internet, without political censorship, can develop democracies. To underscore the point, Zoellick reminded the General Assembly that Cuba ``has the highest controls on the Internet." [4] El Jigue 6-7-06

These 'democracy' themes, should and does work well at the 'high' political level(when was the last time philosophy was discussed in prime time?) but be very aware of your surroundings when you deciede to defend with logic instead of weapons, your 'high' moral and 'civic' standards...I tell you, I missed the memo that gave into these ideologies and pretty much put logic under the command of the military and politicians.

There is no telling what a controlled society could do..

I hope everything works out peacefully. But you said a great point: When was the last time philosophy was discussed in prime time? It goes right down to the point of why people can't have interests in politics. They think that what the prime time tells them, is all that there is to philosophy and politics. Teemu Ruskeepää 18:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Pseudo democracies under tighter control

Senator Lugar refers to pseudo democracies [5], which now, given recent past history of turning into real democracies, are under far tighter control. However, in this article Cuba is specifically excluded from this category. El Jigue 6-9-06

If politicians were the ones writing these articles, we would be reading codes, instead of deciphering them...what is real democracy? an 'narchy' country with a government made up of five individuals?

Gueyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy! Oh come on try and be more specific that is a standard line from text of Apologia Catechism 101. El Jigue 6-9-06

Hold up just a minute...who gave the lecture on what constitute a democracy versus what is supposed to do and what really it is...a philosopher? a political science major in the US?...or marginal writer and thinker?...and when did this happen???

History

Cuba following revolution

Minor Point: before or after

The following text appears to be in error:

The result was the Bay of Pigs Invasion of April 1961—the rising did not take place and the invasion force was routed. This prompted Castro to clearly declare Cuba a socialist republic, and himself a Marxist-Leninist, which he did in May 1961.

According to this timeline Cuba "officialy" declared itself socialist one day before the bay of Pigs began. Considering that the DGI had dozens of informants in the operation, the invasion was no suprise, but there is a chronological abnormality here. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 01:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe that your source is incorrect, as an academic source I have (Keen, Benjamin & Haynes, Keith 'A History of Latin America' Boston/New York, Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004 on page 439) states:

"One month after the Bay of Pigs [i.e. May 1961], Castro proclaimed allegiance to socialism and the Soviet Union, pledging to defend Cuba in the event of another U.S. attack, stepped up it's flow of arms to the island".

There is no chronological abnormality here, for if you look at the policies of the Cuban regime prior to the time, they were not ultra-socialist: the nationalisation of American oil refineries in May 1960 had only occurred as a pragmatic move due to their refusal to process Soviet oil and over half of Cuba's farmland was still in private hands, with relations with the United States not even being broken off until January 1961. Hauser 03:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I have several other references that also have the same chronology and they are very specific about the date of April 16, 1961:

1. The Cuban Revolution: Origins, Course, and Legacy, Marifeli Perez-Stable, pg 3
2. Cuba-us, Helms-burton Doctrine: International Reactions, Joaquin Roy, pg 10
3. Collective Political Violence: An Introduction to the Theories and Cases of Violent Conflicts, Earl Conteh-Morgan, pg 151
4. A Timeline From the Guardian UK
5. US department of state

I would disagree with interpretation of the regime prior to this date, but thats not the question here. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 22:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The statement "the rising did not take place " needs to be qualified with two caveats, (a) there was a rising in the middle provinces especially which lasted until about 1967 see The war against the Bandits, and (b) well over 200,000 were arrested "before the invasion" El Jigue 6-18-06