Talk:Banu Nadir

An entry from Banu Nadir appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 16 June, 2006.

Wikipedia

don't believe it! where are your sources?

Need to see the sources of this story...first time hearing this! At least google it! can't believe this was futured on the main page. Do you have sources for this?

• See all the references under the References section... — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 16:06

why cant we believe it..we dont need any sources to believe in the glorific(read horrific) exploits of mohammed.just a look at any islamic country of the intolerance of muslims in general might say what their revealed prophet might have been like....

• I'm trusting that wikipedians will not take the bait on this inflammatory and anonymous comment. We'll continue to focus on the article and what can be done to make it as good as possible. Anon Y. Mouse 19:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Don't forget that everything has a source isn't true. There are good and valid sources but also we face hundreds of bad and false sources. In my opinion, the section about Muhammed is a total dust. Muhammed wage many wars against the local tribes(and of course many people died in these wars) but he didn't go and loot anywhere. With respect, Deliogul 20:11, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Someone really needs to look at this article...

I'm no expert but this doesn't seem to be very subjective.

• Isn't that a good thing? Or did you mean objective? — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 16:09

people seem to get too confused with these two words.....no offence at non english speaking people or anyone else...

External links

Looks like you've got two bad links there - might want to investigate them. Interesting article, though. Tony Fox (speak) 16:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• They were just improperly formatted. Should be fixed now. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 16:34

Jewess

"Jewess" isn't an anti-Semitic term. At most it might be considered sexist, as explained at dictionary.com, but then why isn't "Latina" considered offensive? — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 17:16

Uh... what are you talking about... it says in the link you provided that it is "now a highly offensive term." It's anti-Semitic and most often used by Russians. Latina is a hispanic word. Jewess, like Negress, is an outsider's pejorative epithet. Tchadienne 17:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you even read the Usage note? It is not anti-Semitic; it is at most sexist, for the reasons explained in the Usage note on the link that you claimed to have read:

"Like many other English nouns in which the suffix -ess is added to a gender-neutral word to indicate femaleness, the terms Jewess and Negress are now widely regarded as offensive. It is interesting to note that the objection to words formed with the -ess suffix does not apply to words such as Latina and Chicana, whose contrasting forms Latino and Chicano are not gender-neutral but rather refer even in English primarily to males."

Also read the Usage note at -ess, which clarifies that the source of the offensiveness is the added gender to a term that normally referred to both genders. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 17:26

I cant figure out what you're point is... it is anti-Semitic. Whether or not, it's still "highly offensive" so dont use it. Theres nothing to discuss here. Tchadienne 17:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not it's offensive is not the point; it's that it is not anti-Semitic. It is sexist. You can claim it is anti-Semitic if you want, but you have simply been misled. If you read the Usage note at -ess, you'll understand why:

"Many critics have argued that there are sexist connotations in the use of the suffix -ess to indicate a female in words like sculptress, waitress, stewardess, and actress. The heart of the problem lies in the nonparallel use of terms to designate men and women. For example, the -or ending on sculptor seems neutral or unmarked. By comparison, sculptress seems to be marked for gender, implying that the task of sculpting differs as performed by women and men or even that the task should typically be performed by a man."

Read the above, and you'll understand why it may be sexist, but it is not anti-Semitic: "Jew" implies either male or female Jewish person; "Jewess" appends a gender to the word, for no particular reason, which is seen by people as offensive because there was nothing wrong with referring to a female Jewish person as a "Jew" in the first place. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 17:47

To make Brian's job easier I will simplify the basic statement: "Jewess" is generally considered an offensive term. Form your own conclusions why based on some of the citations. I think it does not belong in a wikipedia article. Anon Y. Mouse 18:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 18:54

Re: "Expulsion of the Banu Nadir from Medina" Section Rewrite

There's a couple of sentances in brackets that need to be expanded on, and moved into the main body of the section, or removed. Mr Minchin 17:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Where? I think you're referring to previous vandalism that was removed. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 17:58

Clearly biased perspective.

Brian, are you by any chance a Jew? Maybe not. Doesn't really matter, as falsehood is false even if spoken by an honest man, and truth is truth, even if it is spoken by a liar. Which are you? I believe the former. This article, I'm afraid, mixes fact with opinion, blurring the line between truth and falsehood. I like the fact that you quote alot of Arabic sources, translated by one Mr Stillman. Have you read the original Arabic sources, or relied purely on the translation of one man who seems to have an agenda. The article, I'm afraid is flawed. It is not written in an objective manner at all. It's an article that should not be read seriously. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redahmeid (talk • contribs)

• I had no part in writing the article. Why are you going after me? — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 18:19

• You need to be specific. What is flawed about the article? What is wrong with the translations of Professor Norman Stillman? Why do you think he has an agenda? Which sections or sentences are false? Why shouldn't the article be read seriously? What is not objective about it? Right now, your post looks like nothing more than FUD. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 18:23
  • Brian, are you serious? This is the most blatantly non WP:NPV I've seen in a long time. Even if the facts were completely NPV, which seems extremely unlikely, the article itself is obviously not. Even if "the Jews of Medina, guilty only of hard earned wealth, innocent of any wrong doing throughout, were repeatedly set upon by the dastardly Mohamed and his supporters, murderous and scandalous, motivated always and only by treachery and avarice" were accurate history, which seems inherently implausible, a NPV article would at least have to put such vile criminals in a cultural context. As it is, having this article on the front page is an embarrassment. Some administrator really screwed up here. Oh, it looks like it was you. Might I respectfully suggest that you ask an administrator colleague whose judgement you trust to double check your call that this article is NPV. - Anon

• And this is the part where I start heating up my popcorn. Anon Y. Mouse 18:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oh, the drama! :) — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 18:48

Negative Light

This article - and the first paragraph in particular - appears to have been written in order to deliberately display the Prophet of Islam in a negative light.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by SafetyFirst (talk • contribs) .

• You need to be more specific. Which parts are biased, and what changes can be made to fix this bias? Please assume good faith by not claiming anything was deliberately done for whatever reasons. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 18:46

If we could find a middle ground between this article and the first part of [1], I'd be satisfied. BhaiSaab ^talk 18:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm looking forward to some more suggestions here on the Discussion page for how this article can be improved. This is a great opportunity for Wikipedians to show how controversial topics can be handled. Anon Y. Mouse 19:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Can you find a neutral, reliable source, such as a book on Google Books, or better yet, a paper on Google Scholar, or a page on a .edu site that you agree with? I'm not sure about trusting a website, especially one called "The Way to Truth", to depict events objectively. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 19:09

• ok brian i have a question here which might be silly/naive but i still have.why are references from .edu sites or professors from univs considered unbiased or most reliable.they can have an agenda too..after all professors do have religious affiliations.- an atheist
  • It's not going to be easy to respond to an anonymous statement that has an inflammatory comment embedded in it like this one. If you genuinely want more info I'd refer you to the Wikipedia NPOV policy for details on how Wikipedia defines bias, and how to avoid it. Anon Y. Mouse 19:44, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • how was that inflammatory.it was an honest acceptance of reality.anyway if mentioned the inflammatory part wud be eliminated and you can answer the question abt veracity of .edu sites.
  • I didn't say they would be unbiased. It's just easier to find the unbiased entries when you're not searching all the intarwebs. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 21:14

changes have been made to the question now.

Ok, here's ny neutral view, if any would care to hear it: the article, as a whole, seems put into a negative fashion. Ill start adding them slowly to the talk page. BUT, the article can easily be simply toned down a bit and you can take only the info thats included in the POV sources and the NPOV sources.--AeomMai 20:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

For some reason, it is possible that Norman Stillman has a biased POV. Most of the negative parts came from his worls. It might be good to use info that eceryone agrees is fact, since no one can go back to 622 and say that he saw the looting. The killings during war are obvious. Is it true that ALL the men were killed?Even the old men? Bit of a surprise, seems a bit harsh. You guys vcan discuss the rest.— Preceding unsigned comment added by AeomMai (talk • contribs)

I understand your surprise, but most of the Western research of the early history of Islam is based on Muslim sources and the scholarly sources used in this article are no exception. Pecher ^Talk 21:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought I may contribute some opinions -

• The article portrays that the Banu Nadir were innocent of any wrongdoings in their dealings with the Prophet and his followers. However ibn-Hashim stated that the tribe's behaviour had become increasingly insulting/provocative after a particular incident. The incident in question, which occured after the Battle of Badr, happened when a Muslim lady went into the shop of a Jew to make some purchases. The shopkeeper behaved insultingly towards her, whereupon she called for help. Her call was answered by a Muslim man, who arrived on the scene. A scuffle broke out and the shopkeeper was killed, whereupon the Muslim man in question was set upon by some Jewish men and was murdered. Upon investigation, none of those accused of the killing of the Muslim man was ready to admit his guilt. This incident, ibn-Hashim tells us, was not isolated.

• The article states that Ka'b bin Ashraf wrote 'erotic poems' about Muslim women. It is my understanding (and I'm sorry I can't reference this) that he wrote scurrilous poetry, degrading and insulting about ladies in the Prophet's family.

• Ka'b bin Ashraf also went to Mecca, after the Battle of Badr, and visited the Quraish (who were defeated in the Battle), and roused them into taking an oath, with the skirts of the Ka'bah in their hands, that they would know no rest until they had destroyed Islam and it's Founder. This has been taken from "The English Commentary" of the Qur'aan, a heavily researched, well referenced essay, by Maulawi Sher Ali, Mirza Bashir Ahmad amd Malik Ghulam Farid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SafetyFirst (talk • contribs)

Replies:

• (I presume that "ibn-Hashim" is ibn Hisham) A Jew being murdered by a Muslim doen't sound like much of an evidence of provocative behavior on part of the Jews. Anyway, this incident was not used as a pretext for the attack on Banu Nadir.
• The perception of any verses is POV by definition; the article says that Muslims found them offensive.
• Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf talks about him calling for the Quraysh to fight against Muslims. The call was quite understandable, I must say. Pecher ^Talk 21:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Reasons

here are some reasons why i feel that this article is not of NPOV status

... a qualification which provided Muhammad with a convenient pretext for nullifying his obligations toward Jews at a later time.

• POV - i don't think i have to explain why. implication that he would implement this pretext when he wanted to nullify obligations towards the jews, which is inherently false. the jews violated the conditions of the pact that they signed, which resulted in further steps being taken.

... Infuriated at Muhammad's execution of a number of Meccan notables who had been captured after the Battle of Badr, Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf wrote a poetic eulogy commemorating the slain Quraysh prisoners of war; later, he also wrote erotic poetry about Muslim women, which Muhammad and his followers found offensive.[4] Because the norms of the Arab society of that period demanded retaliation for a slight to a group's honor,[3] Muhammad called upon his followers to kill Ka'b, and Muhammad ibn Maslama offered his services, collecting four others.

• POV - factually incorrect - this is more of stillman's speculative POV. Ka'b went to Quraysh to incite them to fight against the Prophet references provided here

"He went to the Quraish weeping over their killed (at Badr) and inciting them to fight with the Prophet."1

(The Prophet said): "He (Ka'b) has openly assumed enmity to us and speaks evil of us and he has gone over to the polytheists (who were at war with Muslims) and has made them gather against us for fighting"2

"And according to Kalbi, he united in a league with the Quraish before the curtains of the Ka'bah, to fight against the Muslims."3

"And he prepared a feast, and conspired with some Jews that he would invite the Prophet and when he came they should fall on him all of a sudden."4

therefore, he himself violated the pact (conditions of which are highlighted in ar-raheeq al-makhtoom), to which he was also required to adhere to, and thus his killing was due to his incitement of war, as well as his insulting. stillman opines that it was merely a matter of honour.

... Muhammad felt himself strong enough to finally move against the Jews of Medina.

• POV. as said above, the jews violated their pact. there is no citation for this suggestion and is merely speculation of someone's intention.

"As his first target, Muhammad chose Banu Qaynuqa, the weakest of the Jewish tribes, who were the clients of the Khazraj, and forced them to surrender unconditionally after a short siege.

• POV. he went to the marketplace calling upon banu qaynuqa, calling them to accept islam lest they ended up like the quraysh who were just defeated. the implication is that he chose this tribe for the greater aim of expelling all of the jews, so he would start with the weakest first. throughout the article this unfounded notion goes unreferenced to any early or primary source. this was not a threat of expulsion, and neither was it a threat of war, as it can be interpreted in a number of ways due to the indirect and rather ambiguous language. qaynuqa responded with hostility and an open challenge, and due to their hostility they were expelled. from bismikaallahuma:
  

"Addressing them, he said: "O Jews! Become Muslims before what befell the Quraysh befalls you." They said: "O Muhammad, you seem to think that we are your people. Do not deceive yourself because you vanquished a contingent of Quraysh having no knowledge of war and got the better of them; for, by God, if we fight you, you will find that we are real men, and that you have not met the like of us". Their answer clearly contained a challenge and a threat, despite the fact that they had accepted his leadership according to the terms of the treaty. This report comes through Ibn Ishaq[2]. Ibn Hajar said that it was hasan.[3] But the isnad includes Muhammad ibn Muhammad, the freedman of Zayd ibn Thabit, whom Ibn Hajar himself said was majhul (unknown).[4]

Even if we accept Ibn Hajar?s suggestion that the report is hasan, that does not mean that the reason for the expulsion of Banu Qaynuqa was their refusal to accept Islam, because at that stage Islam still allowed the Muslims to live in peace with them, and the Prophet did not make entering Islam a condition for any one of the Jews to stay in Madinah. Rather, the Document[5] ensured the religious freedom of the Jews. The reason for their expulsion was the aggression which they showed. This resulted in a breach of the internal security of Madinah." end quote.

"The Banu Nadir remained passive during the whole Banu Qaynuqa episode, apparently because they failed to grasp Muhammad's intentions at that time and viewed the conflict as a usual tribal struggle."

• POV, a continual plug of the notion that the ends was justifying the means in that the aim was to kick all the jews out, as opposed to jews attempting to debase the muslims and convey hostility resulting in their expulsion.

"... Muhammad needed a victory to regain his prestige. The Banu Nadir were a suitable target ..."

• POV, stillman's speculation, not factual in the least.

"... when Muhammad ordered the felling of their palm-trees"

• - citation needed.

"Muhammad easily found a casus belli. Claiming to have received a divine revelation, he accused the Banu Nadir of plotting to assassinate him"

• implies that he was looking for a casus belli in the first place. this is compounded by the above allegations that expelling of the jews was an ulterior motive when such is POV and speculation.

"Muhammad reserved a share of the seized land for himself, which also made him financially independent.[8]"

• from a factual perspective the statement of stillman, a relatively recent orientalist, is by no means sufficient. please provide some references from primary sources or early historians.

these are a few of the concerns i have highlighted with this article. unfortunately many of the articles concerning early islamic history seem to be a bit misrepresented (i.e. marriage to safiyya, expulsion of qurayza) also, perhaps muslims can spend more time dispelling speculation, POV and factually incorrect material? i propose the language used in this article is reviewed and expressed with neutrality, highlighting stillman's perspective as opinion and not fact. Itaqallah 22:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Can you suggest alternate wordings for each of the statements you highlight, with proper sourcing, to be implemented into the article? — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 22:15
  • much of the statements require factual proof for them not to be considered POV, so the burden of proof is upon the claimant. else, that which has not been properly referenced to early historians or primary sources should be removed as it is not proven to be correct, or factual, as of yet. as for rewording of certain parts then i do hope that i would be able to contribute and provide a viable alternative where i am able, although much in this article overlaps into other ones. will do so soon if possible insha allah Itaqallah 22:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm not claiming the current article is accurate, but we need something to put in place of the current content before we can make a change... — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 22:33
      • absolutely. and to that end i will attempt to propose rewordings where possible, although myself and some others believe that the whole tone underpinning this article (especially re: style of language used) requires review, so it may take some time. Itaqallah 22:40, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

What is Wikipedia coming to?

Muhammad took a share of the booty -first paragraph! This article is heavily bias and definitely uncited and lacks credibility. How it is featured on the main page is suspect. Wow..this is the biggest dent Wikipedia has put in its credibility in my eyes, outrageous. - Sohailstyle 2006-06-16 21:43 (UTC)

I agee 100%, this article is a joke. It leaves out most important facts which caused friction between the Banu Nadir and early Muslims. I am really surprised it made the front page. Fkh82 21:56, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

You have to be more specific. What is left out? — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 22:06

It's really important when taking issue with facts that you think are misrepresented or missing that you provide what you believe to be the accurate information. It's not enough to just say "most important facts" are missing. Wikipedia needs your help to fill in the blanks and correct inaccuracies, not just express an opinion on whether or not you approve of the article. Anon Y. Mouse 22:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Uncited? What about the 13 sources under the References section. Are you denying that Muhammad took Safiyya bint Huyayy as a wife? You have to be more specific. Which parts are uncited? Which parts lack credibility? Without these details, your post looks like nothing more than FUD. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 22:06