Talk:Rollo

Copied from Talk: Hrolf Ganger

Last time I checked, we called him Rollo the Brave in English.... JHK

Gange Hrolf was not the Rollo of Normandy

• Back to the old nomenclature question. I personally favor the Anglicized-Scandanavian version - Hrolf Ganger or Hrolf the Walker, whichever - because Rollo is ambiguous with other persons. I haven't seen "Rollo the Gangler" in any of my references, but it could certainly be added to the many variants on this name. -- April

Were we to use consensus nomenclature, the article would be entitled Rollo I, Duke of Normandy -- do you mind? Got the R the G from Hollister, BTW JHK

• Hm... I suppose I hadn't really thought of him in that context, but by all means let's go with the consensus nomenclature. I can get to it this weekend if someone doesn't move it first. -- April

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Was there a Rollo II? If not, he's plain "Rollo, Duke of Normandy". Except on conversion he aparently adopted the name Robert and is given in some lists as Robert I (which means renumbering all the later Roberts). Aaaaargh! User:David Parker

David -- where did you get that? I know William's father was Robert, but I've NEVER heard that Rolf or Rollo was Robert. And NO ONE was called Robert then anyway -- was he Rodbertus, Ruadpertus (unlikely, that's more east of the Rhine), Rupertus (also more eastern, but where the Rupertiner was eastern, their distant cousins were the Robertians, i.e., Capetians...)? Don't suppose you've got a nice source we couold check? Annales Bertiniani? Vedastini? I'm pretty sure it's not in Annales Fuldensis, which is a drag, since I have that at home... ugh. JHK

I wasn't too happy with it myself: I certainly don't want to end up adding a I to every subsequent Robert. If he's the only Rollo we're likely to have, we could just title him "Rollo", or leave the title as is: the "of Normandy" is only really necessary when the regnal name occurs in other contexts. User:David Parker

• • Alas, it seems that there's more than one Rollo around... besides Hrolf, there's a character in a book and also a musical Rollo whose full name escapes me at the moment. -- April

PS. Is Rollo really French, or just their rendition of his original name?

I always thought (on no grounds at all) that Rollo is a Latinization from the chronicles of a name like Hrolf. MichaelTinkler

I think it's Francification Latinized. Really. No Joke. They did that. It's what makes my research so interesting. Can't spell a name the same way twice in a document. Really. AAARRRGGHH!!! JHK

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I have to second the AAAARRRRGGHHH... I just found a source that questions whether Hrolf/Rollo can actually be fairly called a "duke" at all! Excerpts from Rosamond McKitterick's, "The Frankish Kingdom under the Carolingians, 751-987", (Longman) 1983:

"Rollo is thought to have been Norwegian rather than Danish, and later Icelandic sources identify him with Hrolf the Ganger (Walker), son of Ragnvald Earl of Moer, who had a career as a Viking before settling in Francia.... Flodoard adds the information that Rollo received baptism and the Frankish name Robert with the cession of this territory. ... Rollo seems to have been made a count in 911, with the traditional duties assigned to a Carolingian count, namely, protection and the administration of justice. He was certainly subordinate to the Frankish King. With the proliferation of titles accorded the leader of the Normandy Vikings in later sources, some historians hace suggested that Rollo was made a duke, but Werner has argued that there was no Norman 'marchio' before 950-6, and no duke before 987-1006 ... Rollo appears to have received his territory on similar terms as the Bretons had received the Cotentin, except that the bishoprics were also ceded. ..... In exchange, Rollo was to defend the Seine from other Vikings, accept baptism and become the 'fidelis' of the Frankish King."

Ack! Does this mean he is, in consensus nomenclature,

• Rollo I, Duke of Normandy
• Rollo, Duke of Normandy
• Robert I, Duke of Normandy
• Rollo, Count of Normandy
• Robert I, Count of Normandy''''''''''

         NO          signed Stalker

... or what?? Anyone know where current thinking is on this? -- April

AHA! This is an example of an excellent source! It's a tough call, because McKitterick seems to be implying that Werner thinks that R. could not have been a duke if there were no marchio. That's very silly, because Werner is very clear that there are both comites marchionis and duces marchionis. Normally speaking, I trust Werner, because he's been doing this stuff forever. But Carolingian sources are notorious for the interchangeability of titles and name spellings. My guess is that somebody found a reference to Rollo as dux and pieced it together with a much later duchy. I think that we should go with 'Count (some authors say Duke)...'. And I'm pretty sure we call him Rollo -- the best way to check is to find someone like Robert Curthose, get his number, and count backward. Me, I'm off to write a lecture on the English revolution.JHK

I do not follow JHK's logic here: McKitterick implies that there can be no duke without a marchio; Werner says that there can be marchiones without dukes. These two are perfectly compatible; where's the contradiction? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

New Talk

Does anybody know if Rollo's size (height / weight) was ever documented? To earn the nickname 'the walker' he must have been rather large.

I'm confused. I got here from Battle of Soissons where it says that Rollo died in the battle. However June 15 says that Robert I of France died in that battle and his article seems to confirm that. Where these two different men who died on the same day at the same battle or are they the same person? Please fix all the articles I cited accordingly. --mav 03:58, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

They are not the same person. It is not known exactly when or where Rollo died but it was after 928 and therefore after the Battle of Soissons. (see Rollo's Henry Project page). Part of the confusion is genealogical; part is the anachronistic application of the title of Count to Rollo; part is the expectation of an orderly series of French kings. I think only the Battle of Sossoins article needs fixing: it was Robert I who was killed there, and Charles III who was captured there, and Rollo who wasn't there. - Nunh-huh 04:26, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

P.S. the article here somewhat naïvely accepts the identification of "Hrolf" with "Rollo": there's little basis for this and it ought not to be propounded as fact. I'm not up to straightening it up right now, though. Maybe someone will beat me to it! -- Nunh-huh 04:30, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

When it comes Rollo's height, and if he was the Norwegian Gange-Rolv, remember that the old Norwegian horses wasn't very big. He might have been a tall man, but certainly no gigant. --FinnWiki 01:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Family

Someone (maybe me when I can find time) needs to do a section on his wife and kiddies. William is mentioned, but not Gerloc/Adele, who married William III of Aquitaine. --Michael K. Smith 01:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Burial

I remember seeing in a tour guide some years ago that Hrolf was supposed to have been interred at Notre-Dame in Rouen. Anybody know? --Michael K. Smith 01:32, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

References

Does it strike anyone that the list of refs is a hodge-podge? It looks like the original author (or someone) just threw in every book they could find that had "viking" in the title. I would not feel comfortable deleting any of these -- since they're not "wrong," just pointless -- but this method dilutes the untility of the list. --Michael K. Smith 01:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Descent

re the last bit on the house of windsor & descent from rollo - thought the windsorites were formally of hanover & prior to that a distinct break w/ the house of orange from holland & prior to that other distinct houses ie tudors, plantangents and finally william I's family? how could eliza ii be directly related? royal lines die out etc etc etc

(comment moved to new section) See Direct descent from William I to Elizabeth II. Man vyi 08:57, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

You're confused by the term 'die out', I think. None of the families you listed died out, they simply married into other families (and other members went on with the same name). William the Conquerer (and Rollo here) ARE direct ancestors of Elizabeth II. William is the great great great great (and so on) grandfather of Elizabeth, in other words. I don't see why you think that just because the family/house name changes, the family dies out. If I have say, one and only one child, a daughter, and she marries some guy named Bob Smith, her children (and thus, all of my descendants) will be named Smith. They won't share my family name but I will still be their direct ancestor. --24.131.9.50 22:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I am a direct descendant of Rollo (20 generations back father to son all the way down, but the surname has changed a few times during that time - mainly due to titles or inheritances). With daughters its even more so.

Hi! Can you please tell your surname and haplotype? СЛУЖБА (talk) 21:28, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Still kicking to Rollo

A small research about Rollo of Normandy.

1. A Danish Prince: The statement of the Norman Dudo of Saint-Quentin ("De Moribus et Actis Primorum Normanniae Ducum") that Rollo was a Danish prince. (Dudo a much more recent and living alot nearer the regions concerned).

2. Wrote on Request of Rollo´s grandson: Dudo wrote Rollo´s story some 60 years after Rollo's death (d.931) at the request of his grandson Richard I.

Snorre (The Icelandic saga) wrote his saga tree centuries later. And he lived on Iceland!)

Iceland is a island very far away from Normandy. Settled by peaceful settlers who were seeking green fields.

3. Yet another proof that the Icelandic saga is mostly fiction: Snorre's inconsistency in describing "Hrolf" father as a dear friend of King Harold Fairhair, yet relating Hrolf's assault on Viken as if an enemy.

4. Another Hrolf!: The existence of another Jarl Hrolf in Normandy, whom Orkneyinga Saga aka the Icelandic Snorre may have mistaken for Rollo. Or maybe he just wanted Rollo of Normandy to be Icelandic.

5. Reference to other Danes: Dudo's reference to Rollo's brother Gorm(Gurim), who arrived in France in the company of his "uncle Sigfred” (Sigfred III). (Ragnar's son, and of Godfrid, the son of Harold Klak," who played a prominent role in the Battle of Saulcourt in 881. Harald Klak was the one who arrived with 60 ships in Normandy).

6. Born in Denmark: Benoit de St. More; Chronique des Ducs de Normandie (Writed about 1190): States that Rollo was born in Fakse in his native country. This is presumably Fakse in Stevns in eastern Zealand of Denmark, which agrees very well with Dudo's account that Rollo fled to Scania (Skåne) (near Fakse), just on the other side of the Sound, and the place name examples in Skåne and Normandy.

7. Same place names. A study of the place names of Normandy has shown that several names appear to be direct translations of the Danish province until 1650´s Scania/Skåne in the south of Sweden) places, e.g. Yvetot (from Ivetofta) and Bourgebue (from Borgeby). Witch also agrees with Dudo, that they fled to Skåne.

8. Language influence: Here clearly tells the “Old Norse language” article, that the old language of Denmark and most of Sweden also were spoken in some places in the Normandy in its earlier days. It should be noties that the Danes and Norwegians not spoken that same language. Danish and Norwegian/Icelandic was NOT the same language.

9. Saxo: Saxo Grammaticus. Also claim in his Gesta Danorum -wrote about 1185, that Rollo was Danish. (But he properly used some sources from Dudo).

10. Could be a son of Ivar Boneless: "Origin and History of the Montgomerys...", B. G. de Montgomery, (William Blackwood and Sons Ltd, Edinburgh and London, 1948)...pp. 30-32:

The author cites as proof of his contention that Rollo was the son of Ivar. The Dane Ivar the Boneless, who died. 872),” (But i think that is very doubtful.)

11. Invited the major of Fakse: That Rollo had orgin in Fakse, was remembered in Normandy in 1911, when major Haxthausen of Fakse was invited to the to the big Millenium Festivals in Rouen, as a representative of Rollo´s native soil.

Source from the turist/history site of Fakse: http://www.fixfaxe.dk/sevaerd/rollostenen.htm

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Here is some qoutes from Dudo of Saint-Quentin´s “De moribus et actis primorum Normannie Ducum”

This one i think many Danish scholar are familiar with:

Just send ambassadors to them to find out what they themselves say." Then Ragnold: "Go swiftly, we pray, to find out their purpose." Anstign replied: "I will not go alone." On the contrary, they sent with him two warriors skillful in the Dacian language. Coming upon the riverbank, they stood still, saying: "Counts of royal power command you to say who you are, and whence you have come, and what you are planning to do." Truly they replied: "We are Danes. Carried here from Dacia (Denmark), we have come to take Francia by assault." Yet they: "What authority does your lord discharge?" They replied: "None, for we men are of equal power."

Here he say that was from Dacia himself, and NOT Iceland.

Read it here. http://www.the-orb.net/orb_done/dudo/11-conquest

more Dudo:

The Franks is at its knees and is forced to make peace with the Danes (Dacians) Rollo will make peace on the condition that he get Carls daughter and the duchy of Normandy. 932 he is baptised and gets the Christian name Robert. Now he rebuild the land and build churches. Five years before his death he gives the throne to his son Wilhelm I. Rollo properly dies in 932.

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Vilhelm of Jumièges is a monk from Normandy writed it about 1070. (also before Orkneyinga Saga FROM ICELAND! were writed).

From Vilhelm of Jumièges: Guillaume de Jumièges Gesta Normannorum.

Quote: The father sends him (the son) to the city Bayeux, and gave him to his “commander” to learn Danish (Danica) language. Under the protection of Boso. So he could give his –from the outcountrys, the right answars. [ut ibi lingua eruditus Danica, suis exterisque hominibus sciret apte dare responsa]”

from the same text.

Rollos reputation was so great that king Harald of Denmark (Harald Klak) (Danorum rex) flied to Normandy with 60 ships after his brother Sven had taken the power in Denmark. The mighty and noble duke (Rollo) Received Harald with glory and gave him the province of Coutances until he was strong enough to return and retake the lost realm.

That is also drawed on the The Bayeux Tapestry.

That tells about those who arrived in Normandy were Danes. Harald Klak was also in front in 815, in a big sea battle. When the Franks for the first and only time tryed to invade Jutland, Denmark. There isn´t made a Harald Klak page yet.

1. http://www.um.dk/Publikationer/UM/English/Denmark/kap6/6-2.asp
2. http://www.gedevasen.dk/summary.html

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>>>>Conclusion: Rollo is from Denmark. -most likely Fakse, Zealand.<<<<

Ofcouse no one can proof anything like we can´t proof that Neil Armstrong was the first man on the Moon. But there is surely alot more proof and give alot more sence that Rollo was from Denmark , and not from a island far away. There is also evidens for that the Danes had conflics with the Francians in that time, and centuries before. Look at Danevirke etc.

In the old town Fakse (Today known as Faxe, after the Faxe brawery) in Zealand, Denmark, ca. 35 km. South-west from Copenhagen. Is there a monument for Rollo. Called Rollostenen (The Rollo stone). Also a School called Rolloskolen (The Rollo school).

The National-museum in Denmark have a temporary exhibition about The Bayeux Tapestry. The exhibition also shows those old founds in Denmark from Normandy. And alot of Anglo-saxon coins (over 30.000 i think). And also cites as proof of it, that Denmark was a big trading partner with Normandy, witch also agrees with Dudo.

http://www.nationalmuseet.dk/sw20385.asp

Read Dudo of St. Quentin's Gesta Normannorum here: http://www.the-orb.net/orb_done/dudo/dudindex.html

--Comanche cph 02:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

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Your conclusion is hardly ok. It is based upon certain assumptions that in my opinion are a bit dubious to say the least. It seems as though you use the sources to back up an already made conclusion.

1. You seem to claim that Snorre is an unreliable source compared to Dudo.

Snorre was an Icelandic chief. He did not depend on writing to make a living. As such he was not requiered to "adjust" the facts in order to recieve his salary. Nor did he have a need to portray a false version of history in order to prevent scolding and reprisals. In other words, he could more easily be regarded as an independent narrator.

The fact that he "lived on Iceland" is irrelevant. You don't get much from saying that Iceland was "Settled by peaceful settlers who were seeking green fields." Even if this were correct, I cannot see how it could be important. It does not indicate that Rollo was Danish.

Dudo (and others), however, wrote chronicles for clients. These clients weren't interested in getting all the facts straight; rather, they wanted the chronicles to make them (and their kin) look good. That makes Dudo less reliable. As far as I know, Dudo and other authors on wich you base your conclusion, are generally known for their fantastic tales.

I'd say your claim is totally backwards - Snorre is the more reliable one.

2. You try hard to find evidence for your conclusion.

First of all, you claim that Dane=person from Denmark and Dacia=Denmark.

First question: What did "Dane" mean? "Dane" meant Scandinavian.

Next question: Where was Dacia? Dudo writes that Dacia - Rollo's place of birth - was "protected by very high alps." Norway is full of mountains. Denmark has none.

According to the chronicles, Rollo was born in "Fasge," not Faxe, Denmark. You assume that Fasge=Faxe. However, "Fasge" could just as well mean Fauske, Norway.

(I don't know for sure, but the comment left by "ingorant Norwegian" makes me a bit suspicious. Funny that he uses "writed" and claim that Rollo was -Icelandic-. Comanche makes the exact same mistakes. Has he really posted a false comment in order to make an easy target to fire at? Is this a joke? Am I missing something?) 129.177.156.92 16:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC) Random Norwegian

No! All this all this is wrong. Rollo of Normandy is a guy named Gange Hrolf from Iceland and he was so big that he couldnt sit on his own horse. ~~ writed by a ingorant Norwegian.

Answar:

The Icelandic Orkneyinga saga is not a strictly historical work. The saga is as much a piece of medieval literature as historical documentation and, written some three centuries after some of the events it records. There is found examples of obviously fictional elements - such as Earl Sigurd's raven banner, the poisoned shirt of Earl Harald, elements of the Hrolf Ganger saga and the foundation of Oslo etc.

You can also see on the Oslo article under history how wrong the Snorre Saga is.

According to the Norse sagas (The Snorre saga), Oslo was founded around 1048 by king Harald Hardråde. Recent archaeological research has uncovered Christian burials from before 1000, evidence of a preceding urban settlement. This called for the celebration of Oslo's millennium in 2000.

This is actually a funny statement as the article contradict it self, and show how ignorant some Norwegians are over for Norwegian History. On the Jelling stones from the late 900´s it say clearly that Harald Bluetooth invaded South Norway (Viken).

And dont forget Harald Bluetooth of Denmark were the one who Christinized the Danes, and proberly also the Norwegians as the founds of Christian burials says. Harald Bluetooth founded Christania (later renamed to Oslo in the 1600´s) in about 950. Viken and more of Norway was properly a Danish Colonial until the Kalmar Union.

--Comanche cph 02:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

If you want to be taken seriously, you're not doing yourself any favours here. Your theory about the founding of Oslo seems to be taken out of thin air. Anyway, Oslo was founded with the name Oslo, renamed Christiania in 1624 after king Christian IV of Denmark, then renamed back to Oslo in 1924. You may believe Viken and more of Norway was a "Danish colony" until the Kalmar Union in the late 14th century if you chose to disregard all written sources, including royal letters and sagas of the 13th century describing contemporary events, (Sverris saga, the bagler sagas, Haakon Haakonssons saga) - in short, what you write here is obviously, clearly, factually wrong, so why should anyone put any faith in what you have to say about other matters of Norwegian medieval history? (Barend 15:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC))

I have answered you here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Oslo#Answar_to_Barend --Comanche cph 16:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Some comments: I have to say some of your arguments seem very far fetched. Like the Rollo-stone and the mayor visit. Nobody is contesting that a theory regarding Rollos possible danish origin exists. But along your own rationale you must then recognise the theory of Rollos Norwegian origins on the basis that the city of Rouen gave Ålesund a 2,65 metres tall bronze statue of Rollo in 1911 in order to mark his origins. Inge 21:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I don´t write the Rollo stone as a proof. But why arent you coment all the other proofs???? What source do you have for the Rollo statue in ålesund was a gift from Rouen? You know that many place names a Rouen match Danish place Names.

But anyway, What´s happen 1000 years later, can´t we use as a proof for anything. --Comanche cph 21:57, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Nice to see you agree that the Rollo stone is not "proof". It has however been one of your more frequently used arguments. If the place names in Rouen match Danish place names many of them will most likely also match Norwegian and Swedish place names. Well since you have used local tourist pages as references before I hope these web-pages will be acceptable: a Norwegian christian pilgrimage page A tourist information page What happened in 1911 is not proof of what happened in 911, but it is proof that in 1911 the city officials of Rouen believed Rollo was from Møre in Norway.

Many of your other arguments are circumstantial as well, but the basic argument that a theory excists stating that Rollo might be from Denmark is not under dispute. What is under dispute is that you want to remove the theory that Rollo was Rolf the Ganger. If you want to get that view through you would have to come up with notable references stating that. A published book or a paper from an historian stating that the Norwegian-origin theory is total rubbish. References simply stating the Danish-origin theory is not enough. Inge 14:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Inge wrote: "A published book or a paper from an historian stating that the Norwegian-origin theory is total rubbish."

Ok.

"Göngu-Hrolfs Saga, translated by Hermann Pálsson and Paul Edwards (Edinburgh: Canongate, 1980). Studied at length in Jacob Wittmer Hartmann, The Gongu-Hrólfssaga: A Study in Old Norse Philology (New York: Columbia University Press, 1912). I do not buy the conflation of Rollo and Göngu-Hrolfr."

"Halvdan Koht, “L’oliphant de Rollon,” Normannia 2 (1929): 361-69. Concludes that the oliphant was not, in fact, Rollo’s. D’oh."

I support to original theory to, that Rollo is Danish. That also makes most sense if you look at the hole image of the history between Danes and Franks --Arigato1 00:23, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Im not moving any theory, where do you get that from? But Rollo was not known by any tekst as Hrolf. Only the icelandic saga. So his name on other wiki-pages should either be Rollo or Robert. okay?

Ok, forget the Rollostone, is was not used as a proof, i may delete it! Instend Comment the atleast 10 other sources!

The statue in ålesund was also send to Fargo in USA as a copy. So why and when does the Americans come into this, was he also from America now? I think this make the questian about that gift very distrustful. But anyway. That dosent proof anything, like said before.

The place names was used from Scania, with was they Rollo fleed from with his men. -according to Dudo. And remember that Norway first adopted the Danish language during the Kalmar union in 1300´s to 1800´s, when scholar in Norway learned Danish, instead of the old Norwegian.

All writers from Normandy state that he is Denmark and not the Hrolt Ganger from Iceland. So why should we trust a saga who has been proven with alot of fault and fiction, writed 300 years later?

So in you eyes Dudo of Saint-Quentin, Benoit de St. More and Vilhelm of Jumièges all lived before Snorre, and closer the the events, must be faking??

--Comanche cph 21:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Comanche, Not faking but concerning Dudo of Saint-Quentin he was clearly biased, glorifying Rollo, his family and the Normans. Why ? Because he was paid for that as you said it yourself "Dudo wrote Rollo´s story some 60 years after Rollo's death (d.931) at the request of his grandson Richard I." Enough said, That's a panegyric full of legends, fictions and myths. Saint-More and Jumièges just took the work of Dudo and considered it as reliable.

Example, What's better to claim that Rollo was a Danish prince or to claim he was a bloodthirsty invader and bandit from an unknown family ?

"All writers from Normandy state that he is Denmark and not the Hrolt Ganger from Iceland. So why should we trust a saga who has been proven with alot of fault and fiction, writed 300 years later?" I was waiting for that one, this is certainly why Lucien Musset, François Neveux and Pierre Baudiun, all from Normandy and historian wrote in their respective books that the origin of Rollo are still unclear... He could have been Danish or Norwegian if of course we can seriously talk of nationality at this time...90.9.27.67 (talk) 22:57, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

There is not much evidence that supports the theory that the majority of Normans were Norwegian, they seem to have been Danish (especially from what is now Sweden) and the Normans themselves claim that Rollo was from Denmark, not Norway. Snorre was not a Norman, but an Icelandic, and thus it is more likely that the Norman sources were more correct about the founder of their country than the Icelandic source. Danish or Norwegian nationalism shouldn't come into play here, the fact is that Rollo was Danish, as confirmed by Norman sources, and not Norwegian. - ExplorainCaptain — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.189.209 (talk) 20:53, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

It is not confermed by norman sources he was danish, not at all. The norman sources say he was from Dacia, witch also could mean Scandinavia. We know from english sources that the anglo saxons rearly distinguished danes from norwegians, calling them all danes. This is because we spoke in "danish tongue". Why should the french be different? Further on, Fakse, or Fasge - could just as well be Fauske, witch is a place in Møre - Norway. This place is, unlike Faxe in Denmark, surrounded by high mountains, as Dudo describes. And acording to the saga litterature Rollo was from Møre. Rollo is the latin name for Hrolf. There is no mentioning of Rollo in any danish sources, but several in the icelandic sagas and the Orkneyingar saga...strange that such a prominant "dane" wouldnt be mentioned in Saxo Grammaticus. No norwegian would remove the danish theory, however allot of danes seems to want to remove the norwegian claim. That is nationalism my friend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattamatikk (talk • contribs) 19:48, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Let's try a vote

As a vote is one of the steps on Wikipedias policy on resolving disputes I would like to suggest one. Add your four~ under the solution you support.

Include both the theory that Rollo was Rolf the Ganger and the theory that he was a Danish person.

1. Inge 13:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

1. Rollo was NOT a Hrolf Ganger, who was so fat that he not could ride on a horse. That theory is based on a saga from Iceland , writed 300 years later. The same saga has been proven, with alot of faults and fictional elements in it. So i will take that source for very doubtful.

But why a vote? What is wrong this, it´s tells about both theorys!

--Comanche cph 14:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Comments

Comanche: If you agree that Rollo could have been Rolf the Ganger then why are you still contesting it in other articles? Inge 15:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I do NOT agree with the pro-Icelandic fairytale. But that´s not the issue here. We have a article tells about both theories of the Duke of Normandy. But it seems like many Norwegians in here, like you, don´t wanna accept that. --Comanche cph 16:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Mattamatikk: I havent yet figured out how to replay on talk, so ill write here. You cant say all other theories are rubbish. Dacia was also a name used to describe all of Scandinavia, not only Denmark. Besides, Dudo says Rollos birthplace was surrounded by high mountains...there are no mountains in Denmark. The french sources say he was from Fakse, however this could easily be Fauske witch is in Møre & Romsdal, the place the Icelandic sagas claim Rollo was from. Fauske is surrounded by high mountains. In most ways, the description Dudo gives fits Norway better. Besides, it is common among historians both in France, Norway and England to believe he was from Norway, judging from the sources of both Dudo and the Icelandic sagas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattamatikk (talk • contribs) 19:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Dacia

In the article it says Dacia was also used as another name for Denmark. Seems a bit fishy to me. Can anyone confirm or refute this? The Land 20:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, this is suspicious. As a student, I learned that Dacia was part of the Roman Empire, at its height, in an area roughly corresponding to Romania. It was part of Trajan's empire, but, north of the Danube, it was one of the two earliest large territories (the other being Mesopotamia) which Rome lost before the end of the 2nd century. Without a supporting cite, I propose eliminating this comment. Unschool 03:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Look it up in any Latin dictionary. Dacia was a medieval latin term for Denmark. See also Dacia (disambiguation) --Barend 16:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Geme, plange, moesto more, dolorosa Dania. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Priori Provinciali ordinis fratrum Predicatorum in Dacia per Dacie, Svetie et Norwegie regna constituti.[1]

Christofferus dei gracia Dacie Swecie Norwegie Sclauorum Gothorumque rex comespalatinus Reni et dux Bauarie.[2]

There's nothing strange about there being different names for places, and different ways of writing them, in the middle ages. As I said, look it up in any dictionary.--Barend (talk) 14:27, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, I have. No support for this Renaissance jest; is it based on the natural palaeographic error of c for script n, or is it more of Snorri's euhemerism? What Latin Dictionary are you using? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Nothing to do with renaissance or with Snorri (Snorri didn't write in Latin). The examples I gave you above are from the Pope in the Vatican in 1256, and from the King in Copenhagen in 1445. I could give many more examples, but for sure, it's sometimes written with an n as well.--Barend (talk) 11:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

this confused me for years, to the point that i was entertaining the idea that dudo might have been constructing a franco-cimmerian sister myth for the newcomers, but it's an ethnic term. dacia was a place that many goths settled at a time when the greeks and romans did not know much about scandinavia (it was a distant, unknown island to them). when further contact was developed, they identified the north germanic people that they found with the north germanic people they knew. scandinavia became thought of as the homeland of the dacians, and hence dacia. it should be noted that there were another people named dacians that were related to thracians, but they had long since assimilated. so, "dacia", here, means "homeland of the goths", goths being how the southerners interpreted the northerners.

• Oxford Latin Dictionary

  Dacia, the province north of the Danube; (app.) one of the divisions of the province.

• Cassell's;

  Daci, the people of Dacia

• Jo. Matt. Gesneri : Novvs lingvae et ervditionis romanae thesavrvs

  Daci, Dacus, and so on, also for the Roman Dacia, per quotations

• Du Cange: Glossarium mediæ et infimæ latinitatis:
• Maigne d'Arnis: Lexicon manuale ad scriptores mediæ et infimæ latinitatis:

  Dacia as a variant of Data, defined as Tributum; Du Cange has a supporting quotation from Pietro della Vigna, 5, 118, "...collectiones, dacias, sive Steuras."

• Lexicon Mediae Latinitatis Danicae

  Dacia and its cognates not found; Danus and Danicus duly listed and defined as dansk. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

As for dictionaries, I should of course say, look it up in a medieval latin dictionary - which is surprisingly difficult to find. The Oxford Latin Dictionary, for instance, states clearly that it doesn't include medieval latin. Dacia will obviously only mean the area north of the Danube in classical latin, as Denmark did not exist in classical times. Anyway, I've found Revised medieval latin word-list (Oxford University Press, 1999): Dacus, Dane, Danish 1086, 1461; Daca 1276, 15.c., hachia dacensis 1200, Danish axe. cf. Danus. My latinsk-norsk ordbok (Latin-Norwegian dictionary) (Oslo, 1999), lists both classical and medieval forms, and lists roughly present day Romania as the classic latin translation, and Denmark as the medieval latin one. It doesn't list Dania at all.

Anyway, the discussion is of purely academic interest on this page, as the word Dacia has been deleted from the article at some point anyway. But as you see from the sources, in medieval Latin, Denmark could be written both Dacia and Dania. In addition to the examples I've given before, see for instance Petrus de Dacia (Swedish monk) and Petrus de Dacia (mathematician).--Barend (talk) 11:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Maigne d'Arnis is a dictionary of Medieval Latin; Du Cagne, of which I consulted the ten-volume 1981 edition, is the standard dictionary of Medieval Latin, and Lexicon Mediae Latinitatis Danicae is, as its title states, a dictionary of Danish Medieval Latin. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting! Well, I must admit I was mistaken then, it's not sufficient to look it up in any dictionary. I checked Du Cagne as well, and it doesn't seem to include all geographical names, I couldn't find Dania, Suecia, or Norvegia/Norvagia/Norwagia either. But as you see from the references I've given, Dacia was indeed a medieval latin name for Denmark, and it seems to have been more commonly used than Dania as well. The search engine in Diplomatarium Norvegicum, here], which searches a database of some 16000 medieval documents, gives 48 hits for Dacia and 608 for the genitive Dacie, 20 for Datia and 142 for the genitiveDatie, and 6 hits for Dania and 38 hits for the genitive Danie. A dictionary I found of Swedish Medieval Latin also listed Dacia. Interestingly, there are several examples where one and the same document talks of the "dani" who live in "Dacia" or "Datia", e.g. De rege Datie et duce Holsasie ista hic dicuntur quare habeo bonam spem quod erunt omnia vera et recte satis se habebunt qualiter omnes Danj per totum Regnum unanimiter clamant pro Cristierno.--Barend (talk) 14:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I come across Scocia almost as much as Scotia for Scotland; this is a little different of course as c has a different relationship to t than it does to n, and Dacia is a different concept. Having said that, Scotland appears to have obtained its patron saint by classicising conflation of Scythia with the similar sounding Scotia. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:25, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone looked into the possibility that Denmark could have been a Dacian colony? It seems that in the wake of Rome's collapse a lot of tribes and peoples were displaced during the 3rd-5th Centuries. We may need to step back a few feet and take a look at the larger picture. Perhaps there are some eastern sources (Byzantine, Slavic, Romanian) that could help with this investigation.Anthroproffs (talk) 16:21, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Confused

Article says: "Danelaw inhabitants were in no way, shape or form, partial to the Normans". What does it mean? Friends, or enemies?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move Rollo of Normandy -> Rollo. Andrewa (talk) 06:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

All the dukes from William II (the Conqueror) on do not use a standard ducal title. Only the dukes from William I (Longsword) to Richard III use the standard form. Robert II (the Magnificient) is being reconsidered. Rollo should not be moved to Rollo, Duke of Normandy, the consistent title, because he was not really "Duke of Normandy". Rollo is clear enough and simplest. Srnec (talk) 23:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• Support. No need for pre-emptive disambiguation here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
• Support Agree with PMAnderson for once. Besides the fact he wasn't even from Normandy and that didn't exist as a concept at the time, the name should be at Rollo anyways as there is no need for dabbing. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
• Support being as he's the only Rollo I've heard of. GoodDay (talk) 17:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
• Support. Not duke of Normandy, not anything of Normandy, and Rollo is not ambiguous. Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

I'm not clear on the nominaton. What does Srnec want the article moved to? GoodDay (talk) 17:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

There's a clue at the top of the page. ;)Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. GoodDay (talk) 17:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Kvenland

I removed this edit because the claim of the Kvenland origin it is based entirely on this website which is not a WP:RS. The rest of the cited sources are WP:Primary sources, most of which doesn't even mention Rollo. There is also a question of undue weight, since this theory doesn't seem generally accepted. --Saddhiyama (talk) 07:14, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

The information given is not based on any one single source or website alone. The information is from the sources offered, and multiple additional sources for the info can be included. The family lineage in question is widely discussed in literature by historians.

The sources given are not for "Kvenland". They are for the newly added information about Rollo's origins. The sources have tackled the Viking lineages - including the ones leading to Rollo and/or the Dukes of Normandy - and other related matters based on medieval accounts and other material available to historians and researchers.

For clarification, it appears to be helpful to also present more information relating to the alleged Rollo's family lineage directly from the sagas themselves, including some quotes, and of course the sources where the info can be verified.

I shall do that - including more sources too -, as this will make it easier for anyone to verify the info through both the sagas as well as the sources given, which discuss the family lineage in question. Johansdotter (talk) 01:09, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Please do not add more sources. There are already too many as it is. Furthermore, the website which you are basing this "new information" is not a reliable source, backing it up by adding primary sources doesn't help one bit since that constitutes original research and synthesis. No scholars support the claim you are adding, it is simply fringe theory and does not have any place in Wikipedia. --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:43, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

More saga-based info pertaining to Rollo's origins is included, with sources

Up till now, the information pertaining to Rollo's origins, based on medieval accounts, have lacked sources. No sources have been included for that at all - zero.

Thus, the medieval accounts in question and the info relating to Rollo's family lineage will now be presented in slightly more detail, with links and some quotes included. Appropriate sources are provided, and more can be added.

The information added is widely discussed in literature and among historians, and the sources given are reliable, verifiable and fitting for Wikipedia standards. The same sources are also used for other closely related information elsewhere in Wikipedia.

The validity of the statement according to which "most would now agree that a certain conclusion can never be reached" cannot be verified. Thus, that claim can be replaced by simply noting that the topic continues to be debated (or continues to be under disagreement). Johansdotter (talk) 01:09, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

If you want to provide information about the various theories scholars have put forth regarding his origins that would be fine. Then you find the scholarly sources and present them as being the theories proposed by named individuals. What you are doing here is presenting your own theories, largely using non-relialbe, primary or out of date sources, and as per WP:OR that is not encyclopedic. Please stick to reliable secondary sources containing the pertinent information and present them in a neutral way. --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:47, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Please do not simply present links to Wikipedia "rules"/policies. Instead, point out in detail - precisely - how you see any given source not meeting the standard you refer to.

I believe there is just one source that you really wish not to be used. However, taking away that one source would not change anything in the information presented. Besides, why would questioning of that source justify your removing of all sources, and the related information presented as well.

Until now, there has been information based on the medieval sagas in this segment of the article. No sources have been provided, however. Now a little more info from the sagas has been added - not even contradicting the old info - and appropriate sources have been included.

The source which you want not used lists related historical accounts and historian and quotes and views from them. Just because findings of some historians or texts in some historical accounts do not support your view of ancient history does not justify you to remove the works in question from Wikipedia.

Take for instance Professor Emeritus Kyösti Julku. He is one of the utmost respected experts on the European ancient history and details relating to the Viking Age as well. Please explain precisely why he or any other source used should not be used.

Please understand that Wikipedia cannot be used for pushing a one-sided and POV, by using historical accounts and historians selectively for support. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view - NPOV. It means representing fairly and proportionately - as far as possible without bias - all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.

E.g.: Why in your view the Orkneyinga Saga can be used in the article to support one piece of information (your personal view ?) - even without sited sources or direct quotes given -, while according to you the saga must not be quoted to show what it really says ? Johansdotter (talk) 16:49, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

The formidable array of primary sources does not mention Rollo even once. You have listed them to support the fringe theory about his heritage proposed at the kvenland.org non-reliable website. That is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Please refrain from making claims about any alleged personal agendas of mine. I have repeated my objection to the sources several times, and except for WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS you have yet to come up with a reason how a self-published website, with no visible author information or editing policy should meet the standards required by WP:RS. That is without even going into the notability of the theory proposed. --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:09, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Please refrain from making claims that I would have proposed theories or interpretations. I have only posted appropriate and highly relevant saga information with the related quotes for the column Historical evidence. The portal which you refer to sites its sources and clearly shows which media corporation publishes it. Furthermore, whether or not that particular source is included in the article, makes no difference. The posted saga information is sources by the other sources. You have yet to provide an acceptable reason for your removing of the info as well as all the sources used. If you wish to discuss the validity of one single source, do not simultaneously delete a lot of information which other sources have been provided for.

Each source used is appropriate exactly for what it is used for. For instance, if a source is used for a quote taken from a saga, that source does not necessarily have to say anything about Rollo. If a source is for something related to the Dukes of Normandy or Harald Fairhair, then it is a source for that particular piece of information, not for everything relating to Rollo. Please, quit deleting appropriately placed and sourced information. Johansdotter (talk) 05:01, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

My objection to your allegations of me having a personal bias is based on this policy, as you accuse the editor of ulterior motives instead of discussing the subject at hand. Your proposed theories and interpretations using synthesis of primary sources is exactly what this discussion is about, so there is no way I will refrain from mentioning that. The theory proposed in kvenland.org that "The Kven-Norse dynasty spread into France also through the Viking King Rollo, founder and first ruler of the Viking principality in what soon became known as Normandy. Rollo's descendants were the Dukes of Normandy." is WP:FRINGE since his origin is disputed and is generally accepted by scholars to be unsettled. The claim of Rollos Kven background is also, despite your claims to the contrary, completely unsourced in that website, and the elaborate family tree that you construct using primary sources is as such flawed from the foundation and therefore unacceptable and unencyclopedic. --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:57, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The source was subtracted and the text was cropped and modified. Presenting the highly relevant and important saga info and quotes under Historical evidence does not mount to presenting "theories". The info is presented in neutral manner, without interpretations or theories attached. Johansdotter (talk) 06:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

You are still presenting a theory of Ynglinge-heritage by juxtapositing various primary sources. The Hversu Noregr byggðist doesn't "show a line of Rollo going back to Fornjót" at all, since the information in that book presented about mythical lineages is not taken literally by scholars at all (it traces the lineage of Harald Fairhair to Priam of Troy as well as the god Saturn and the Biblical character Noah for example). The information that there is such a claim in some of those works can be notable enough, but not in the way it is synthesised in your edit, and it doesn't warrant a longer excourse on the possible descendants and relatives of Rollo according to what is generally accepted to be a spurious theory. --Saddhiyama (talk) 20:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

An explanatory headline and the terms "claimed", "suggests" and "possibly" were added in the text. In addition to secondary sources, primary sources were left for validation of the quotes and translations presented, not for support of "theories" (Note: old sources too can be viewed as "secondary" sources if they tackle and analyze occurrences which happened earlier in the past and if those occurrences had already been reported in primary sources before). The various heroic figures presented in the medieval accounts are interpreted in various ways by historians, some as mythological and others as figures who possibly may have existed, despite of some figures in some cases having been likened to "gods" (compare to Russian tsars, Stalin and Kim Jong Il being likened to gods by many of their followers in more recent history). The following was added to the paragraph:

"In the center of controversy about Rollo's origins are the heroic figures who based on various medieval accounts could be claimed to have shared a bloodline with Rollo. Some of these figures are interpreted to have been mythological or semi-mythological by many historians, while others interpret at least some key figures to have been real. Professor Emeritus Kyösti Julku for instance points out that no errors have been found in the geographical information presented in the Orkneyinga saga. Why should we then suspect that the people discussed in the saga were not real, Julku asks. [source]" Johansdotter (talk) 08:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

That section is still WP:SYNTH. You have yet to provide just one reliable secondary source that supports your claim of this heritage. I have left the claim intact with a citation needed template, to give you some time to find a scholarly source that directly claims what the text in article claims. The section with quotations about the Ynglinge line not related to Rollo is irrelevant for this article. Stick to the article subject, please. This is not an article about the lineage of the Ynglinge dynasty, nor an essay about the origin of mythological figures. And please just stick to adding citations that has direct relation to the sentence. Citation overkill clutters up the article and makes it very difficult for the reader to find the source that actually supports the claims made there. --Saddhiyama (talk) 08:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I will back up a bit and go through my objections step by step. You write "The Yngling "Fairhair dynasty" lineage introduced in Hversu Noregr byggðist ("How Norway was settled") and the Orkneyinga and Heimskringla sagas suggests a line of Rollo going back to Fornjót, the primeval "king" who "reigned over" Finland and Kvenland". Fine, that information may or may not be notable for inclusion in the article. Problem is that with the array of sources (the abovementioned citation overkill) you cited I could not find a single one of them mentioning anything about Rollo. So the first step for you is to provide a source that states exactly this. At that point it may be primary or secondary, but of course the wording in the article will vary based on the nature of the source.

Now, the rest of the problem with your additions is that you take this claim (A) of Rollos Ynglinge heritage, and from this you add a bunch of stuff about the Ynglinge dynasty and the supposed relations to that dynasty with older mythological or real individuals (B). None of the stuff in B mentions Rollo or his supposed connection to that dynasty, that connection is something you as an editor has made for us. That is the definition of synthesis, and since you are using mostly primary sources it is probably closer to original research. I suggest you actually take your time to read the Wikipedia:Synthesis and Wikipedia:Original research policies regarding this.

If no scholar has made this connection in reliable secondary sources but you still insist on mentioning it in this article, the only option you have is to propose the theory yourself in a peer reviewed journal or other reliable source, see to it that is generally approved and then we can talk about adding it to Wikipedia. I hope that this has made the nature of my objections clearer to you, and that it may be of help to you in finding acceptable sources for this. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Danish town of Fuck, fuck, fuck or fuck

--Mattamatikk (talk) 02:08, 5 September 2013 (UTC) Question:

1. Did Dudo and Benoist de Sainte-Maure claim that Rollo was from "Fasge", "Faxe" or "Fakse"? And i see the author of the article identifies Fakse with Faxe in Denmark. Well, he should also include the fact that it could be Fauske in Norway. Fauske is, unlike Faxe in Denmark, surrounded by "high alps". Fauske is a place in Møre, witch the Icelandic sagas claim Rollo hailed from.

2. The author specifies that Icelandic and Norwegian historians identified Rollo with "Gange Hrolf" - insinuating that they somewhat stands alone in this theory, witch is higly uncorrect.

The whole section of Rollos origin seems biased.