User talk:Ruby Murray

Happy New Year, Ruby Murray

Soham — is wishing you a Happy New Year! Welcome the 2014. Wishing you a happy and fruitful 2014 with good health and your wishes come true! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year! May the 2014 goes well for you.

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Steve Comisar

Dear Ruby, please find my explanation below about Steve Comisar.

Dear Wikipedia Editors/Moderators: Thank you for replying to me. I am using the current references in the article. I have provided a new reference below that will be better to add more acting credits to the article and make it more fair, neutral, balanced, and impartial. I also thank you for offering your assistance with the editing. I am in India and having some difficulties with this. Please do the editing for me:

ACTING CAREER: Proposed new reference: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm131409/ This reference can be used to add ALL of Comisar's acting credits to "Acting Career" section of article. I have seen this website used as a reference on Wikipedia to verify credits of hundreds of actors. By adding more acting credits, the article will be more impartial, fair, neutral, unbiased, and balanced. (See WP: Neutrality) Please also restore all acting credits previously deleted. There is a lot more to add to "Acting Career" found on the above website. (The above site also has individual pages for each movie and TV show that can be used separately for each acting credit).

FIRST SENTENCE: The body of the article does mention that Comisar is an actor and an author, however, this should also be mentioned in the first sentence. While best known as a notable criminal, Comisar is also an actor and author. Standing alone, Comisar is less notable if he were only a con man, or only an author, or only an actor. But the unique combination of all three makes it noteworthy in the first sentence, solely because he IS all of these. The current first sentence mentions "extortionist" however, Comisar has only one minor conviction for this crime. (He's much more notable as an actor and author than an extortionist.) It is not "unbiased" to mention extortionist in the first sentence without also mentioning "American actor" and "author." (The order of careers in the proposed first sentence are in order of what Comisar is most notable for. The reference links below verify each career.) Kindly edit/change first sentence to:

PROPOSED FIRST SENTENCE: Steven Robert Comisar (born December 30, 1961) is a convicted con man,[5] American actor,[3] *[11] author,[7] [8] and extortionist.[1]

• [11] Proposed new reference link:

       http://www.imdb.com/name/nm131409/

WP: NEUTRALITY: In compliance with Wikipedia Policy on Neutrality, please edit/change first sentence as noted above. This will allow for a non-biased, fair, neutral, and balanced first sentence. Everything else in this article is perfect. It's only the first sentence that's so troublesome. Please consider and make a fair decision. Obviously, it's you who will decide. I am only a poor man from India trying to seek a little neutrality here. I have read WP: Neutrality, and my requests are fully in compliance. Please make the edits for me because I don't know how to do it.

PROPOSED NEW "ACTING CAREER" SECTION: Comisar became an actor at a young age appearing in movies, TV shows and commercials.[11] He had roles in the motion pictures Tough Luck,[11] Fists of Iron,[11] The Seduction of Gina,[11] and the adult film Sister Dearest,[11] with Traci Lords. Comisar had roles in the TV series Throb,[11] and Hell Town.[11] Comisar also starred in the documentary film Making Crime Pay.[11]

Again, thank you for your kind assistance with editing this article. If you are not willing to make these positive changes, PLEASE leave the article as it is, and not delete any more of the positive accomplishments. Happy New Year!! Be kind to others and the world will be kind to you!

Kind greetings, Amit Mishra, India — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maniamit (talk • contribs)

Hello Amit. I'd like to help, but the numbers in brackets don't make it clear which references you're proposing. For actor, the IMDB link can be used, although it's not the most reliable of sources. Which reference do you propose for his work as an author? Ruby Murray 12:42, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I noted his film role in the intro, using the IMDB reference you noted above. Another editor has reverted this, correctly noting that following discussion at the talk page the consensus was that he really isn't notable as an actor or writer, but as a con man, so the intro isn't the best place to mention the film roles. Ruby Murray 16:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Dear Ruby, Thank you so very much for all of your help with editing this article. Also, thank you for adding the IMDB reference link to help make this article more neutral, balanced, and objective. I only have one change which I would ask that you kindly make for me. In the "Acting Career" section, you omitted the important first sentence from the previous version of the article. You can also use the new IMDB link [11] to add the credits listed below. Can you please edit the "Acting Career" section as noted below? You are doing a very important service to Wikipedia by helping insure fairness, objectivity, and neutrality to these articles. You are a wonderful, kind, human being!

NEW "ACTING CAREER" SECTION: Comisar became an actor at a young age appearing in movies, TV shows and commercials.[11] He had roles in the motion pictures Tough Luck,[11] Fists of Iron,[11] The Seduction of Gina,[11] and the adult film Sister Dearest,[11] with Traci Lords. Comisar had roles in the TV series' Throb,[11] and Hell Town.[11] Comisar also starred in the documentary film Making Crime Pay.[11]

Please edit exactly as shown above. This will insure a well balanced article.

Kindest regards, Amit Mishra Maniamit (talk) 16:02, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

We need a reference first, to verify that he was an actor at a young age in all those roles. Thanks, Ruby Murray 16:27, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Ruby,

Use the IMDB reference [11] to verify the proposed first sentence of the "Acting Career" section:

Comisar became an actor at a young age appearing in movies, TV shows and commercials.[11]

[11] http://www/imdb.com/name/nm0131409/

Please note the years of some of Comisar's earlier movies and TV shows to see that he did start acting at a young age. Please read this IMDB page carefully for complete Filmography verifying more roles and the dates of all these projects.

Kindest regards,

Amit Mishra Maniamit (talk) 13:41, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes I've read his IMDB page carefully (it's not very long) and I had already added it to the "Acting career" section 4 days ago. His earliest role was in 1984, when he was 23 years old, so I'm not sure how adding "at a young age" is helpful. They were all minor roles. That page says nothing about commercials. Ruby Murray 13:45, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

-- Reply -- :

Dear Ruby, I agree with everything you said about the Comisar article. I have no more suggestions because you have been so thorough. Thank you for all of your assistance and keen insight.

Since you are such a competent Wikipedia editor, would you please write an article for Comisar's book, "America's Guide to Fraud Prevention?" The book is notable and has many reliable sources on the internet. In fact, most of these sources are in the references used for the Comisar article. Most all of these references mention the book. Take a look. I just read the book on Amazon/Kindle and it was surprisingly good. You could use a lot of the Comisar article in the article for the book, as the author is Steve Comisar, and he is notable. It is clear that both the author and the book are notable.

Finally, you can use any image of the book cover on the internet for the article, as they are all identical, and would not infringe on copyrights. Please let me know if you can do this. The book should have it's own Wikipedia article, and whom better to write it than someone so familiar with the author. (and you are a very knowledgeable Wikipedia editor) Your colleagues, such as Frze, Reddogsix, and anyone else reading this are also invited to contribute to the creation of this new article. Soon I will have learned enough to write my own articles.

Kindest regards, Amit Mishra Maniamit (talk) 12:59, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I've just had a read of Wikipedia:Notability (books), and it doesn't seem that America's Guide to Fraud Prevention is notable enough as a book for its own article, though its author is notable, and as you said, the book is mentioned in Steve Comisar. The references for the book in that article only mention the book in passing, in articles about Comisar, and I can't find substantial coverage of the book itself online from reliable sources, just listings on book search sites and eBay. So a new article on the book would probably just get redirected back to Steve Comisar. Ruby Murray 13:51, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

-- Reply -- Hi Ruby, OK. I guess we can forget about the article for Comisar's book for now. I feel there is still more that can be added to the Steve Comisar article. His IMDB Bio does mention "appeared in over 40 TV commercials" and "began acting at a young age." (since when is 23 not young?) See the IMDB Bio URL: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0131409/bio --

The following sentence is well documented and should be re-edited back into the "Acting Career" section as the first sentence:

Comisar began acting at a young age, appearing in movies, TV shows, and commercials.*[12] --

*[12] Proposed new reference link #12 for the above first sentence:
        http://www.imdb.com/name/nm/0131409/bio  --

Lastly, the following credits should be added to the "Acting Career" section as they are documented in Comisar's IMDB Filmography. Please edit in:

Add Motion Picture: Sister Dearest [11]; Add TV Series: Throb [11]; Add TV Series: Hell Town [11]; --

By adding to the "Acting Career" section, you are making the article more fair, balanced, and neutral. As usual, thanks for all of your expert help, and I look forward to you making these documented additions to the article.

Kind regards, Amit Mishra, India -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maniamit (talk • contribs) 08:59, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I've added the missing film and TV roles from IMDB. Ruby Murray 10:18, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

-Reply---

Hi Ruby, Thank you so much for adding the missing film and TV roles to Steve Comisar. Please don't forget to edit back in the original first sentence of "Acting career" referenced by the IMDB Bio: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0131409/bio

--> Comisar began acting at a young age, appearing in movies, TV shows,

    and commercials.*[12] --

• [12] Proposed new reference link #12 for the above first sentence:

       http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0131409/bio --

Comisar's IMDB bio clearly says: "appeared in over 40 TV commercials" and "began acting at a young age." (23 is young) See first paragraph of bio.

Thank you once again for assisting me in this difficult editing process. You must have been doing this for many years to become so knowledgeable. My goal is to actually edit articles myself by the end of this year.

Kindest regards, Amit Mishra Maniamit (talk) 15:27, 22 January 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maniamit (talk • contribs) 15:24, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I tried adding that sentence, but it was removed by another editor as IMDB is not a reliable source. You can find out more about why at Wikipedia:External links/Perennial websites. Thanks, Ruby Murray 15:39, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

-- Reply --- Hi Ruby, How are you today? Thank you for trying to edit back in the original first sentence in the Steve Comisar "Acting career" section. I guess we should just leave it alone for now. However, Reddogsix adding "minor supporting roles" to "Acting career" was completely redundant and grammatically incorrect. This is improper grammar and improper syntax. I would ask that you please correct this error. --

Please remove the word "minor" before supporting roles in "Acting career." Obviously, all supporting roles are smaller roles. Everybody knows this. It is redundant and totally superfluous to add the word "minor" before the word supporting. It is also not proper grammar or syntax. Please delete the word "minor" and justify it by stating the obvious. Using proper grammar and proper syntax, the correct way to phrase this sentence is, "He also had supporting roles in the motion pictures..." Please edit this. (We do not say, "the short midget" or "the wet water") - [Elements of Style, 1965] --

This is so incredibly frustrating for me to see how some Wikipedia editors will go out of their way to make the Comisar article as negative as possible just because he is a criminal. Fairness, objectivity, and neutrality should apply to everyone. Some of the editors find it impossible to remain impartial and follow Wikipedia policy. I hope you agree with me on this obvious point and delete this one word, "minor." Thank you.

Kindest regards, Amit Mishra Maniamit (talk) 12:32, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

The grammar and usage are fine. I don't see a problem with neutrality either: he's not very well known for his acting career, as they were all minor supporting roles, and shouldn't be given any greater weight than they have already. The only reference we even have for his acting roles is IMDB, which is not a reliable source. It's fair, objective and neutral. I don't plan to make any more changes to the article. Goodbye and good luck to you. Ruby Murray 12:52, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

--Reply-- Hi Ruby, I know you are tired of both me and the Comisar article. I just wanted to thank you for all of the help you have given me. I do think Comisar's book is worthy of an article. Here is my proposed article for the book, "America's Guide to Fraud Prevention." It's very short. Please post it and we will see if it flies. If it gets deleted or redirected, at least I tried. This is all a learning process for me, and you are greatly helping me with this tricky editing business. I am still a novice and not ready to proceed without you. Please feel free to contribute your expertise by adding or changing anything you like. --

TITLE: "America's Guide to Fraud Prevention" --

America's Guide to Fraud Prevention (ISBN 978-1560723332) is a non-fiction book written by Brett Champion, a pseudonym for well known con man, Steve Comisar.[7][8][9] The book is considered a "piece of fraud history" by the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners.[10] --

Contents: 1 References [book cover image here]-> 2 External links --

References: These are the same references from the Steve Comisar article. All reference numbers here coincide with the numbers in the Comisar article. The numbers obviously need to be changed for this article i.e., [1][2][3][4] -- Or maybe you can find better ones to use from the Comisar article? --

Here are 2 NEW reference links you can use for this article that are not in Steve Comisar:

www.accountingtoday.com/gallery/acfe-fraud-museum-63177-1.html?...

articles.chicagotribune.com > Featured Articles > Telemarketing (July 25, 1999)

External links: Amazon/Kindle book page link. stevecomisar.com Official Website link. --

Book cover image: Any image available online can be uploaded as the book cover image for the article. Since all book cover images are exactly the same, there are no copyright violations. --

I really don't think the article will get nominated for deletion. There are a lot of far less notable books on Wikipedia. Nothing to lose in trying. Please post this article for me. Goodbye and good luck to you as well. --

Kind regards, Amit Mishra Maniamit (talk) 09:08, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

TCH

I would like to know why my post was deleted. TCH invented zip clamps which is an industry first. All products were prototyped, 3D printed in-house to create this. It is a major component in ATA flight case technology and TCH holds the patent for this product. Even Cirque du Soleil and the Stanley Cup cases are made with zip clamps. Company is an OEM so they do not want to name-drop, but it is definitely a notable product. Please advise and TIA Champagne86 (talk) 16:03, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi. I couldn't find any of that information online. Can you point me at some references to verify that? The article can always be undeleted if we can find some evidence of notability. Thanks, Ruby Murray 16:08, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Ruby, thank you for the quick response. Zip Clamps were featured on the Desjardins ad installed on Cirque du Soleil flight cases. Uploaded image link here. Also Stanley Cup cases were made by Clydesdale Custom Cases previously (link) and FlightForm (link) recently. These cases also feature TCH zip clamps. Please note the issue here is that the flight case industry does not have a lot of educational literature online and I believe an article about TCH Zip Clamps would be an educational benefit to people who want to make flight cases at home or an engineer who needs more information.Champagne86 (talk) 17:29, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. But I can't see anything about TCH in those. Is there maybe a trade journal, online or offline, confirming the company's firsts and notable inventions? We need a reliable, secondary source for this: see Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources for more info. Thanks, Ruby Murray 22:27, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Because TCH manufactures these latches/clamps and the industry is highly competitive, the case builders will not publicly reveal their sources etc. The patent for the recessed latch (at least two per cases mentioned above) is in the link here, more drawings can be found here. Zip clamp patent application is here. Also, the companies can be contacted directly to provide proof from the engineers on who manufactured their latches. Also to add, TCH invented Zip Clamps to allow small case builders and at-home hobbyists to make cases easily at home. Without this invention it is extremely hard for small case builders to keep their business afloat and hobbyists to be able to build cases on their own. Champagne86 (talk)

The patents alone won't be enough, if the case builders won't say that TCH's patented tech is used in their product. Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) says that we need "significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources". If TCH is that important to small builders and hobbyists, then there must be some sort of discussion about them in a trade or hobbyist's magazine, or similar? Ruby Murray 23:57, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Avril Lavigne (album)

Hello, a recent user Mr. LuxeTH added "adult alternative" genre with "Helping Hands Rock Review" [1] says "...the mellow, adult album alternative tunes "Falling Fast" and "Hush Hush"..." (those songs, not album), and I think Helping Hands Rock Review is a blog, which is powered by Blogger. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.171.179.172 (talk) 13:11, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I've removed the blog reference, but that genre is still referenced by Metacritic. Thanks, Ruby Murray 13:15, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Removing Myself

I have given up trying to contribute to a page on a topic I am an expert in because I'm tired of dealing with the editor who is squatting on it. To this end, I am removing my discussions (the thing I wrote). This appears to be impossible as the nth+1 random wikipedia editor keeps appearing and reverting. Can you please point me to a process which allows me to do so, because from my perspective, this is becoming petty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.190.129 (talk) 15:36, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that you're not just deleting your own comments, you're also deleting those of other editors. I won't revert your repeated deletion at User_talk:Qwertyus, but other editors are within their rights to restore their own comments, especially at their own talk page. And if only your posts are deleted, the replies to your posts won't make any sense. There's more info on refactoring talk pages at Wikipedia:Refactoring talk pages. Ruby Murray 16:46, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Request To Remove The Maintenance Templates

Please remove the maintenance templates from Kailash Chandra Meher article page. Because all data & information about Mr. Meher is 100% true of my knowledge. Or please tell me for which point this article need additional citations. It needs cleanup. Anandratan (talk) 02:34, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

On Wikipedia, claims in articles, especially biographies of living persons, need to be verified by references from independent, reliable sources. I will remove the promotional language from the article to get rid of the COI tag, but we can't remove the BLP references tag until there are sufficient references from reliable sources. Thanks, Ruby Murray 11:53, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Sandra Kurtzig

Hello! Your submission of Sandra Kurtzig at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Green Giant (talk) 18:48, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Hello! I didn't nominate it, but I'd be more than happy to help. Thanks, Ruby Murray 22:15, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Sandra Kurtzig

Thanks from me and the wiki Victuallers (talk) 00:03, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Wiggle Ltd

please can you stop editing my OFFICIAL CHANGES to a brand page! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jon cannings (talk • contribs) 12:15, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but no: you're not allowed to add copyrighted text to a Wikipedia: this is explained better in Wikipedia:Copyright violations. The text was also blatant marketing, which is fine for your company's website, but definitely not allowed on Wikipedia, and there are no "brand pages" in an encyclopedia. You can find more information on this in Wikipedia:Spam. Thanks, Ruby Murray 13:41, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

(talk I own that text you deleted. I wrote it for Wiggle. Please reinstate —Preceding undated comment added 13:48, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

You could sort out the licensing following the procedure at WP:IOWN, but even if copyright is sorted out, it's heavily promotional, and a lot of what's there would simply be removed on the grounds that it's advertising. For example, "Two new warehouses were acquired to increase stock holding and continue providing a first class service to our customers. Not forgetting our test track that every bike we sell is tested and ridden on, ensuring they truly are Ready to Ride", and "This shows our value and commitment to sport, in particular ladies sport.". Ruby Murray 13:52, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

the cats, its the cats

sounds like a nicholas freeling novel. Something strange has been happening, i had created some more cats for the developing the family of restaurant districts and streets, and somehow i was creating cats with something like a sub cat with exactly the same name... odd, maybe what you are doing is clearing the problem, i thought i was seeing things for a bit... I am sure there is a noel coward song about the predicament. satusuro 14:47, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I think I've fixed it: you created a category, and added it to itself. So I gave it a new parent cat, otherwise it would have been a sort of closed categorical mini-universe. Appropriate Noel Coward song... hmm... how about "Someday I'll Find You"? :-) Ruby Murray 14:52, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

ohmigawd - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Restaurant_districts_and_streets_in_England is what is giving me the bee gees - the higher notes... satusuro 14:54, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. Ruby Murray 14:58, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Penny's dropped as to what I was doing - thanks for your help. satusuro 15:00, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

JS Group

The page of JG Group is full of personal attacks. land Grabbing Case was against owner, not its group. so it must not be shared at JS Group page. Allegations of Sunday leader was fake as no reports of SECP are found or lodged. Finally, Sprint Energy is not owned by JS Group, it has shares in it. Bonus to Ali siddiqui is nothing to do with company operations. So kindly tell me how these information can be removed from page.

Travel Counsellors

Hi Ruby

Thanks for your help with the Travel Counsellors page. It says that Travel Counsellors claims to have 1,300 Travel Counsellors. This article backs up that we do have 1,300 [2]

Can that please be added to the Travel Counsellors page to verify?

Sorry I am new to wikipedia. Thanks

AimeeLoughney (talk) 13:06, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I've now added that reference. Ruby Murray 13:18, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Ruby,

My account has not been confirmed so I can not add the Travel Counsellors logo to the site. Do you know how I can go about getting it added? AimeeLoughney (talk) 14:21, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Upload the logo using Wikipedia:File Upload Wizard, and I'll add it. Ruby Murray 14:24, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Its uploaded now, called Travel Counsellors logo. Really appreciate your help. AimeeLoughney (talk) 14:44, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

I've added an infobox, with the logo. For more info on how that infobox works, see Template:Infobox company. You really appreciate the help, eh? Hmmmm... how about a nice travel-related bribe? A very small and inexpensive jolly to Cancun, maybe? :-D Ruby Murray 16:04, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

haha if only I was at liberty to dish out free holidays - I would get one myself! Thanks again AimeeLoughney (talk) 16:21, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Efkan Ala

Please make SURE that the articles also not LIBELOUS. And don't be a judge by yourself without a trial. thanks.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alien sojourner (talk • contribs) 16:01, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

If you see anything libellous, please point it out on the talk page. But words like "fascist", "shameful", "notorious", etc. are not neutral language, as I've explained on your talk page. Also, please don't delete referenced content from articles without presenting good reasons for doing so on the article's talk page. Thanks, Ruby Murray 16:08, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Marc Ostrofsky

Thank you for your help. Just trying to update the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcostrofsky (talk • contribs)

I'll hold off editing for a few hours then. But the page may need a complete re-write, it's so blatantly promotional. Ruby Murray 14:48, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: VX (Sport)

Hello Ruby Murray. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of VX (Sport), a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: Whilst there are some similarities between this and the previous version, there are enough differences and, critically, considerably more citations, than the deleted version. Needs to go to AfD for a discussion again. . Thank you. GedUK  12:44, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I added some of those citations myself. :-) I'm glad it's not going to be deleted, and I won't be taking it to AFD: it's clearly notable now. Thanks, Ruby Murray 13:01, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Erik Vollebregt

Please see discussion under User talk:Noteswork#Sjoerd Vollebregt. Therfor I have removed the new tag.— Preceding unsigned comment added by NED33 (talk • contribs)

India Hicks

I edited the India Hicks article on wikipedia which you then changed back to the previous version. Its a biography I have from the person themselves. I also think your comment of "but you didn't provide a reliable source" was a bit vague. what part of the article did you take issue with so that I can insert relevant citations and sources.Pebbleandco (talk) 15:07, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

You deleted a lot of referenced content; none of the content you added was supported with a reference, and it all had a highly promotional tone. Please read Wikipedia:Conflict of interest and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons, if you haven't already. Thanks, Ruby Murray 15:11, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Talk page

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