Talk:Vande Mataram

AFAIK Maulan Azad raised the point about the song being offensive. If anyone knows the details of where and when fill them up.

Another reason that is often cited is that VM lacked an official sound. The modern day rendition of the song was done based on a Raga and proposed by Gandhiji after the point of tune was raised. A committee decided that the new tune was not good enough to be played internationally - it was not recognizable in other cultures. While all national anthems have heavy beats and are very strong. VM was feeble. JGM on the other hand has a tune that is mixture of Indian and western music and had wider acclaim.

I wonder if this is true? Besides I wonder if all these details shud be filled in. They would make the article more about controversies. AY 05:04, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Can't speak to the post-independence discussion of the song as a national anthem. But the pre-independence hullabaloo over the song was deeper. See below.--iFaqeer 22:32, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Muslim Opposition

The Muslim opposition/allergy to the song was not, AFAIK, based on the religious symbology, but on the potrayal of Muslims, which they felt was very, very negative.--iFaqeer 22:30, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

The lyrics, especially as crafted for singing, were bereft of any mention of Muslims. You might be talking about Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay's book, the one in which it originally appeared.--LordSuryaofShropshire 22:41, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

No I am not. Vande Mataram is very much part of the national myth of Pakistan as an important symptom of why Pakistan was necessary.--iFaqeer 22:56, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

See [1] for how and why a non-offensive version was crafted.--iFaqeer 23:00, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Well, once again, you haven't met my statement. The lyrics contain nothing irreverent or negative about Muslims or anyone; they speak of Mother India. The phrase "Vande Mataram" was used as a stirring cry for Independence against the British regardless of religion by many across the country. What was upsetting about the lyrics was its use of Hindu philosophy and iconography where Bharat was seen as mata. Lastly, the 'Pakistans necessity was disputed by Muslims and non-Muslims alike even then.--LordSuryaofShropshire 23:01, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

I already know the story better than you can imagine. The point I was making is that the song itself does not 'insult Muslims' per se... Muslims are insulted by the song. The song doesn't speak against Islam, or advocate Hindu India, but it offends the sensibilities of Muslims who view a feminization of and dedication to one's land as violating tawheed. --LordSuryaofShropshire 23:03, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Again you're not listening to me. :D "irreverent or negative" is not something you can measure with an oscilloscope and certify. I am telling you that there is stuff in the original that Muslims did think (in their opinion; not yours or mine) offensive. I will dig up what I can about it.

On the dispute over the necessity, that is a whole other can of worms. I am not saying people did or not dispute. I am saying that the ones that do claim it as necessary use this as one of their arguments. Does that make sense?--iFaqeer 23:06, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Okay, the truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. Here's one take, from the Indian Muslim side: [2]. Still looking for the Pakistani version.--iFaqeer 23:10, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Here's more: [3]. Again from Indian sources.--iFaqeer 23:15, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Added links to page and just a "See external links" in the text. Is that okay?--iFaqeer 23:20, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

No the truth's not in the middle at all. I told you that it is 1) A Hindu characterization of the motherland and was 2) set in a controversial novel called Anandmath. All the other objections on the part of Muslims stem from that. Both articles you showed me serve only to bolster my own argument. Anyway, no one's arguing here. I was simply saying that the actual song never had an anti-Muslim lyrics, which is what you were implying in the beginning by saying it was more than merely the Durga Mata slant.--LordSuryaofShropshire 23:24, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Don't have the time to research the song further. But whether the song itself had anti-Muslim lyrics or not, it's origin as a part of (what at least the Muslims saw as) a strongly anti-Muslim piece of literature made it very, very offensive above and beyond the other problem of using a very relgious song as as an anthem first by a party that claimed to represent all Indians and then as a candidate as a national song for a country that claimed to be a secular republic.

And from the encyclopedia point of view, the fact is that there is a controversy associated with the song--however innocuous its content might be--and we need to mention it. Preferably in as objective way as possible.--iFaqeer 23:31, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

a, an, the

Would anyone mind if I (or anyone else) changed the references to this being "the national cry for freedom" and "the national song" to "a national cry for freedom" and "a national song"? In the former case, there's got to be other things that can be considered such; in the latter case, I think Saaray Jahaan Say Achchha has the same official status.--iFaqeer 23:19, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

That's completely false. "Vande Mataram" is well-acknowledged to have been the mantra that when cried would rouse people to a fever-pitch of pride and anger against the British. Sare Jahan se Accha, for example, is a beloved national song, but played no role as an Independence motto, especially to the extent that Vande MAtaram did. From Bengal it spread throughout the country and that was why it was the natural first choice for the national anthem. --LordSuryaofShropshire 16:09, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

Lard Saahab, chill, dude! Pre-partition, on an all-India basis both of those songs had at least the same status. Vande Mataram, being Bengali, was more common in that region. If you don't mind my saying so, saying that "Sare Jahan se Accha" played no role in Independence, would be funny if it didn't have such grave implications. That would cover the a/an/the discussion. Let me find references for you. That's why I didn't make the changes without discussion.

But the above has nothing to do with my other point. That of legal standing. Let me research that a little more. The answer to that might also raise the question that if SJSA, so to speak, did not play any role in the independence movement.--iFaqeer 20:33, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

:-) Surya wont step back. I've seen him discuss topics close to his heart with fervent passion. He wont take any thing but his own answer. Anyway, I support him. He is not making things up. I was not around when we gained independence or when we were in the process of gaining it. But from what I know now. Vandematram was THE song. It was no a song - nothing was close. Why else do you think I can sing Vande Matram in its entirity but still cant sing Saare jahan Se Achcha. Even though Hindustani seems to be first language and my knowledge of Bangla is limitted to reading and writting (not understanding ) it. It still is important to Indians. Had it not been for the fact that Muslims found it derogatory (for whatever reason) it would have been the National Anthem of India. Gandhiji was greatly pained by the fact that Jana Gana Mana was picked. BTW iFaqeer, you might want to look at Saare Jahan Se Achcha it might have some anti-partition POV thanks to my edits :-) --Ankur 21:41, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

While this is not directly related to this debate I feel like discussing the status of the national songs. Many people in India consider Sare Jahan.. to be another National Song of India. While I was in school, I remember singing SJSA with pride and enthusiasm. I felt sad that I could not sing Vande Matram (VM). But now it is the other way round. This is what happened - From first grade till Seventh I changed 4 schools in all of them we sang SJSA but in my last school there was change of Principal, the new lady was a pro nuclear tests, Indra hating, child bashing (her own child not other's) autocrat [we did agree on Indira]. As is normal for such people they prefer VM, these kind still send out emails explaining why Jana Gana Manaa should be replaced with VM. Anyway, from that day on, we only sang VM in school. So gradually I forgot the order of the lines in SJSA. This explains that in modern day India SJSA is more popular except under special circumstances. Or maybe there has been a shift towards VM and it is more popular. Another thing, SJSA is popular in South India too. At least that is what I can tell from one Tamil friend. He was asking me to explain the meaning of SJSA. He could sing it even though he did not understand it. VM too is not difficult to understand thanks to heavy sanskritization. --Ankur 22:07, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Working on it. Also polishing the transliteration and translation. Not having learnt it in childhood (:D), I am going by your transliteration. See Talk:Saare Jahan Se Achcha for further notes

And I disagree with your characterization of Lord Sura; he might not be as, shall we say, compromising as you, but I see him as listening to reason without compromising his principles. I respect that. See User:LordSuryaofShropshire#Awards--iFaqeer 22:18, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)