Talk:Jesus

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Frequently asked questions

Q1: What should this article be named?

A1: To balance all religious denominations this was discussed on this talk page and it was accepted as early as 2004 that "Jesus", rather than "Jesus Christ", is acceptable as the article title. The title Christ for Jesus is used by Christians, but not by Jews and Muslims. Hence it should not be used in this general, overview article. Similarly in English usage the Arabic Isa and Hebrew Yeshua are less general than Jesus, and cannot be used as titles for this article per WP:Commonname.

Q2: Why does this article use the BC/AD format for dates?

A2: The use of AD, CE or AD/CE was discussed on the article talk page for a few years. The article started out with BC/AD but the combined format AD/CE was then used for some time as a compromise, but was the subject of ongoing discussion, e.g. see the 2008 discussion, the 2011 discussion and the 2012 discussion, among others. In April 2013 a formal request for comment was issued and a number of users commented. In May 2013 the discussion ended and the consensus of the request for comment was to use the BC/AD format.

Q3: Did Jesus exist?

A3: Based on a preponderance of sources, this article is generally written as if he did. A more thorough discussion of the evidence establishing Jesus' historicity can be found at Historicity of Jesus and detailed criticism of the non-historicity position can be found at Christ myth theory. See the policy on the issue for more information.

Q3a: Is "virtually all scholars" a phrase that can be used in Wikipedia?

The issue was discussed on the talk page:

Based on this Wikipedia search the phrase is widely used in Wikipedia.
The definition of the term virtually is shown by the Merriam-Webster dictionary in clear terms.
The term is directly used by the source in the article, and is used per the WP:RS/AC guideline to reflect the academic consensus.

Q3b: What about asking on the reliability noticeboard?

Yes, people involved in the page can discuss matters, but an independent opinion from the reliable source noticeboard can further clarify and confirm the sources. An outside opinion was requested on the noticeboard. The outside opinion there (by user:DGG) stated that the issue has been discussed there many times and that the statement in the article (that virtually all scholars of antiquity hold that Jesus existed) represents the academic consensus.

Q3c: What about the books that claim Jesus never existed?

The internet includes some such lists, and they have been discussed at length on the talk page, e.g. a list of over 20 such books was addressed in this talk page discussion. The list came from a non-WP:RS website and once it was analyzed it became clear that:

Most of the authors on the list were not scholars in the field, and included an attorney, an accountant, a land surveyor, a film-maker, as well as a number of amateurs whose actual profession was less than clear, whose books were self-published and failed the WP:RS requirements. Some of the non-self-published authors on the list were found to just write popular books, have no academic position and not scholars, e.g. Christopher Hitchens.
Some of the books on the list did not even deny the existence of Jesus, e.g. Burton Mack (who is a scholar) holds that Jesus existed but his death was not due to his challenge to Jewish authority, etc. Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's work is about the Old Testament and not really related to Jesus. Tom Harpur holds that Jesus existed but mythical stories were later added to the gospel narratives about him.

The analysis of the list thus indirectly shed light on the scarcity of scholars who deny the existence of Jesus.

Q3d: Do we have to survey the scholars ourselves?

The formal Wikipedia guidelines require us not to do our own survey. The Wikipedia guideline WP:RS/AC specifically states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Given that the guideline then states: "statement in Wikipedia that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors." we should not rely on our own surveys but quote a scholar who states the "academic consensus".

Q3e: Why even mention the existence of Jesus in the article lead?

A: This was discussed on the talk page. Although scholars at large see existence as a given, there are some self-published, non-scholarly books which question it, and hence non-scholars who read this article need to to have that issue clarified. And note that the statements regarding existence and other attributes need to be kept separate and stating that "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus was from Galilee" would not be accurate, because scholarly agreement on existence is much stronger than on other items.

Q4: Are the scholars who study Jesus all Christian?

A4: No. According to Bart D. Ehrman in How Jesus Became God (2014, ISBN 978-0-06-177818-6, p. 187), "most New Testament scholars are themselves Christian". However, scholars of many faiths have studied Jesus. There are three aspects to this question:

Some of the most respected late-20th-century scholars involved in the study of the historical Jesus (e.g. Amy-Jill Levine, Geza Vermes, Paula Fredriksen) are Jewish. This trend is discussed in the 2012 book Soundings in the Religion of Jesus, by Bruce Chilton, Anthony Le Donne, and Jacob Neusner (ISBN 978-0-8006-9801-0, p. 132). While much of the older research in the 1950–1970 time frame may have involved Christian scholars (mostly in Europe) the 1980s saw an international effect and since then Jewish scholars have brought their knowledge of the field and made significant contributions. And one should note that the book is coauthored by the likes of Chilton and Neusner with quite different backgrounds. Similarly one of the main books in the field, The Historical Jesus in Context, by Amy-Jill Levine, Dale C. Allison Jr., and John Dominic Crossan (2006, ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6), is jointly edited by scholars with quite different backgrounds. In the late 20th and the 21st century Jewish, Christian and secular agnostic scholars have widely cooperated in research. The Muslim Reza Aslan wrote the number-one bestseller Zealot (2013).
Regarding the existence of a historical Jesus, the article lead quotes Ehrman who is an agnostic and Price who is an atheist. Moreover, G. A. Wells who was widely accepted as the leader of the non-existence movement in the 20th century, abandoned that position and now accepts that the Q source refers to "a preacher" on whom parts of the gospels were based – although he believes that the supernatural claims were just stories that were then attributed to that preacher. That is reflected in his 2004 book Can We Trust the New Testament (pp. 49–50). While scholars continue to debate the historicity of specific gospel narratives, the agreement on the existence of Jesus is quite global.
It is misleading to assume that Christian scholars will be biblical literalists who cannot engage in critical scholarship. Catholic and non-Evangelical Protestant scholars have long favoured the historical-critical method, which accepts that not all of the Bible can be taken literally.^[1] For example, the Christian clerics and scholars Michael Ramsey, C. F. D. Moule and James Dunn all argued in their scholarship that Jesus did not claim to be divine,^[2] Conrad Hyers, a Presbyterian minister, criticizes biblical literalism: "Literal clarity and simplicity, to be sure, offer a kind of security in a world (or Bible) where otherwise issues seem incorrigibly complex, ambiguous and muddy. But it is a false security, a temporary bastion, maintained by dogmatism and misguided loyalty."^[3]^[4]
Finally, Wikipedia policies do not prohibit Buddhist scholars as sources on the history of Buddhism, Jewish scholars on Judaism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc.

Q5: Why are some historical facts stated to be less certain than others?

A5: The difference is "historically certain" versus "historically probable" and "historically plausible". There are a number of subtle issues and this is a somewhat complicated topic, although it may seem simple at first:

Hardly any scholars dispute the existence of Jesus or his crucifixion.
A large majority of scholars agree that he debated the authorities and had "followers" – some scholars say there was a hierarchy among the followers, a few think it was a flat organization.
More scholars think he performed some healings (given that Rabbinic sources criticize him for that etc., among other reasons) than those who say he never did, but less agreement on than the debates with authorities, etc.

As the article states, Amy-Jill Levine summarized the situation by stating: "Most scholars agree that Jesus was baptized by John, debated with fellow Jews on how best to live according to God's will, engaged in healings and exorcisms, taught in parables, gathered male and female followers in Galilee, went to Jerusalem, and was crucified by Roman soldiers during the governorship of Pontius Pilate." In that statement Levine chose her words very carefully. If she had said "disciples" instead of followers there would have been serious objections from other scholars, if she had said "called" instead of "gathered", there would have also been objections in that some scholars hold that Jesus preached equally to all, never imposed a hierarchy among his followers, etc. Scholars have very specific positions and the strength of the consensus among them can vary by changing just one word, e.g. follower to disciple or apostle, etc.

Q6: Why is the infobox so brief?

A6: The infobox is intended to give a summary of the essential pieces of information, and not be a place to discuss issues in any detail. So it has been kept brief, and to the point, based on the issues discussed below.

Q6a: Was Jesus Jewish?: Yes, as mentioned in the article, but not in the infobox. An RfC at the Village Pump says to include religion in the infobox only if it's directly related to the subject's notability and there's consensus. Some editors want to include his religion in the infobox and others do not. With no consensus, the default is to leave the religion out of the box.
Q6b: Why is the birthplace not mentioned in the infobox?: The question came up in this discussion and there is no solid scholarly agreement on Bethlehem, so the infobox does not address that.

Q7: Why is there no discussion of the legacy/impact of Jesus?

A7: That issue is inherently controversial, and has been discussed on the talk page for many years (see, e.g., the 2006 discussion, the June 2010 discussion, the November 2010 discussion). One user commented that it would turn out to be a discussion of the "impact of Christianity" in the end; because all impact was through the spread of Christianity in any case. So it has been left out due to those discussions.

Q8: Why is there no discussion of Christian denominational differences?

A8: Christianity includes a large number of denominations, and their differences can be diverse. Some denominations do not have a central teaching office and it is quite hard to characterize and categorize these issues without a long discussion that will exceed the length limits imposed by WP:Length on articles. The discussion of the theological variations among the multitude of Christian denominations is beyond the scope of this article, as in this talk page discussion. Hence the majority and common views are briefly sketched and links are provided to other articles that deal with the theological differences among Christians.

Q9: What is the correct possessive of Jesus?

A9: This article uses the apostrophe-only possessive: Jesus', not Jesus's. Do not change usage within quotes. That was decided in this discussion.

Q10: Why does the article state "[m]ost Christians believe Jesus to be the incarnation of God the Son and the awaited messiah ...?" Don't all Christians believe this?

A10: Wikipedia requires a neutral point of view written utilizing reliable scholarly sources. It does not take a position on religious tenets. In this case, the sources cited clearly state "most", not "all", Christians hold the stated beliefs, as some sects and persons who describe themselves as "Christian", such as Unitarians, nevertheless do not hold these beliefs. This was agreed upon multiple times, including in this discussion.

References

^ R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49
^ Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024.
^ Hyers, Conrad (Spring 2000). "Comparing biblical and scientific maps of origins". Directions: A Mennonite Brethren Forum. 29 (1): 16–26.
^ Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.

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Talk:Jesus/archivebox

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Good article/featured article

This article is mentioned on both the Good Article list and the Featured Article list. Bill Smith (talk) 19:07, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2014

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the original article, it says: Jesus' childhood home is identified in the gospels of Luke and Matthew as the town of Nazareth in Galilee.

Grammatically, it should be: The gospels of Luke and Matthew identified Jesus' childhood home as the town of Nazareth in Galilee.

Nsoftness (talk) 18:51, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think your version is crisper, but I don't think the original is ungrammatical. Paul B (talk) 19:22, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(t • e • c)} 19:37, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2014

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Please change "Jesus probably looked like a typical Jew of his time" under the heading Language, ethnicity, and appearance to "Jesus probably had physical features common to the Jewish people of the time" because many Jewish people prefer to be referred to as "Jewish people" rather then "Jews". This sentence seems a bit abrasive to me. Mathguy1992 (talk) 18:55, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I would strongly oppose such a change. The idea that the term "Jew" is somehow derogatory is itself derogatory to Jews. See Jews#Name_and_etymology and MOS:IDENTITY. Would you insist that "he was an American" be replaced by "he was an American person"? Paul B (talk) 19:19, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(t • e • c)} 19:39, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tend to agree with Paul B although not as strongly. In my mind, I question the importance of the word change - seems like we are making a change to make a change - and agree with Paul that the term Jew is not derogatory as it is a perfectly fine definition/reference in both a religeous and ethnic connotation. Ckruschke (talk) 19:57, 27 February 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke[reply]

Lifetime Change

I believe the dating of Jesus' birth should be changed from BC. If you are using AD then Jesus was not born Before his time. Using BCE and CE would be proferred to relieve any confusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.74.202.194 (talk) 15:46, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is already a policy on use of BC/AD vs BCE/CE (see WP:ERA). In general, either can be used. Since they both have the same reference time as the change between the eras, it makes no difference which is used. But there is a "cultural tie" in this article to BC/AD so it makes sense to use it here. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:36, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I only suggested BCE and CE instead of AD because of Wikipedia own article around the meaning of AD, which means In the year of our Lord. It just didn't make sense to have him born in BC, which, when paired with AD, has the meaning of Before Christ/Before the Coming(of Christ). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.74.154.86 (talk) 18:59, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your logic, but due to errors in calculations long ago, we're stuck with it. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:33, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"B.C." means "B.C." That's it. It came from "Before Christ" but the meaning of terms can change beyond their etymologies. —Designate (talk) 06:35, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Since when? Dictionaries still define it as "before Christ". EvergreenFir (talk) 04:21, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

By day I am a Biblical Scholar... I've never made an edit to this Jesus article, even though I could quibble about many sentences. I agree with the anonymous editor's comment that the dating in this article should be changed to BCE/CE. It is the convention among mainstream academic Biblical Scholars to prefer this more "neutral" dating scheme. Among scholars studying ancient materials and using the historical method, only British classicists and philosophers (and those sympathetic to their style and proclivities) seem to use BC/AD anymore. American scholars almost universally use BCE/CE, and this is the convention of such flagship journals as the Society_of_Biblical_Literature's Journal_of_Biblical_Literature. Potentially, it could be (philosophically) argued that WP:NPOV demands a more neutral dating system. Most Biblical scholars acknowledge that the BC/AD terminology involves a not-so-implicit set of theological claims, i.e. that Jesus was/is Christ (Jews disagree, along with atheists), and that he was/is "Lord," implying divinity. It is also a little bit funny, as the comment above indicates, that Jesus's birth is now commonly dated to "BC." On the other side of the argument is the observation that you can efface the meaning of "Common Era" but the fact is that the system is based on the Christian dating scheme of Dionysius_Exiguus wily nily. So there it is, my two cents. Matthew Baldwin (talk) 11:47, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Was Jesus an Openly Gay Man?

Why isn't there any reference to the possibility that Jesus might have been an openly gay^[1] man? Here's an article pertaining to my question: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/apr/04/jesus-gay-man-codices Thanks. 70.238.222.12 (talk) 16:32, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Because such an idea is ridiculously fringe. There are less experts advocating for the idea that Jesus was gay than there are advocating that Jesus didn't even exist, and I am loathe to call those people experts, as none of the stuff they seem to write factors in ancient Jewish culture. It's all just looking at Jesus through the frame of modern culture.Farsight001 (talk) 18:29, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Find some more reliable sources and we can include it I guess. It is WP:FRINGE though. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:33, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If this idea was to be mentioned in the article, it would have to be done not in reference to a BBC article on the topic but in reference to scholarship regarding the sexuality of Jesus. While there have been a number of articles on Jesus and sexuality, a very brief search of JSTOR yields no results among the main peer-reviewed publications in the field. The place to look, incidentally, would be to the scholarship on Jesus, Lazarus, and the Beloved Disciple (i.e. in the Gospel of John) but then, WP:NOR Matthew Baldwin (talk) 11:54, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

^ http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/apr/04/jesus-gay-man-codices

[1] R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49

[Hick_page_27-2] Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024.

[ConrandHyersFooterBio-3] Hyers, Conrad (Spring 2000). "Comparing biblical and scientific maps of origins". Directions: A Mennonite Brethren Forum. 29 (1): 16–26.

[4] Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.

[5] ttp://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/apr/04/jesus-gay-man-codices

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