Talk:Ahmadiyya Muslim Community

Sabians and Yahya

The Kitab Yahya could probably be added to the list of 'recognised books'. Yahya was also known as 'John the Baptist', and is the primary figure in the Sabian religion. The Book of John is their principal sacred text. Sabians are specifically cited in the Holy Qur'an in surah 2, ayah 62 and again in surah 5, ayah 69 - as people who 'shall have their reward with God' (just like Jews and Christians). And Prophet Yahya is mentioned too in surah 19, ayah 12 - as having received a Book from Allah. DLMcN (talk) 20:45, 22 March 2011 (UTC) DLMcN (talk) 20:47, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Merge from Indian Ahmadis

I suggest to merge the contents from Indian Ahmadis here. All sections are One or Two liner. -- ɑηsuмaη ^{ʈ ᶏ ɭ Ϟ} 14:25, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 4 May 2012

I am well versed about Ahmadiyya Islam, So I want to Edit.

Jannatkahoor1 (talk) 14:25, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Not done: You'll need to request a specific change and back it up with reliable sources. Also, you must edit from neutral point of view here without introducing any personal biases. —C.Fred (talk) 14:38, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 15 June 2012

Please change [in the Demographics section]

File:Ausbreitung der Ahmadiyya.gif

Establishment of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community by era

Estimates of the worldwide population of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community vary widely. Some internal sources estimate the worldwide population to be as high as 200 million.

to

File:Ausbreitung der Ahmadiyya.gif

Establishment of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community by era

Estimates of the worldwide population of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community vary widely. Some internal sources estimate the worldwide population to be between 80 million and 200 million.

the source is http://www.alislam.org/egazette/press-release/muslim-leader-urges-peaceful-propagation-of-islam/ for 2009 demographics

178.111.28.86 (talk) 10:50, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Mdann52 (talk) 16:07, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Comment having the section headers in place made the request unclear. I've refactored your comment to make that clearer. —C.Fred (talk) 03:44, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

• Does anybody object to the substance of the change, or shall I go ahead and make it? —C.Fred (talk) 04:05, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

No objection from me.--DLMcN (talk) 05:39, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Is there any particular reason for the maps on the right being displayed? They don't seem to show anything.1812ahill (talk) 03:24, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Changes

Please update the page.

On the official website of Foreign Office (Germany) is stated that Pakistan has approximately 1 million Ahmadis.

Link in German Language: http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/DE/Aussenpolitik/Laender/Laenderinfos/01-Nodes_Uebersichtsseiten/Pakistan_node.html Link in English Translation (Google): http://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.auswaertiges-amt.de%2FDE%2FAussenpolitik%2FLaender%2FLaenderinfos%2F01-Nodes_Uebersichtsseiten%2FPakistan_node.html

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Your links appear to be to wikipedia articles. I need external links to make the change. Mdann52 (talk) 16:19, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Please check the links I have posted above. It is the official website of the foreign ministry / department of state from Germany. It's in German Language, but with Google Translator you can read it in English. Take a look at: Religions / churches

Translated with Google: Religions / churches: Islam is the state religion (96% of the population, mostly Sunnis, between 15 and 20% Shi'ites). The Ahmadis are a marginalized by the official Islamic Muslim religious community, with approximately 1 million members. In addition to about 3 million Hindus estimated 2.8 million Christians living in Pakistan, besides Parsis, Sikhs, Buddhists, Baha'is.

source: http://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.auswaertiges-amt.de%2FDE%2FAussenpolitik%2FLaender%2FLaenderinfos%2F01-Nodes_Uebersichtsseiten%2FPakistan_node.html

It is absolutely a reliable source from German Government. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adnan933 (talk • contribs) 11:57, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Does the CIA World Factbook have a disclaimer like this page does, that it takes no responsibility for the accuracy of the information? —C.Fred (talk) 12:23, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Can the CIA guarantee that all the information is correct? I don't think so. I think nobody can guarantee, because most are estimates.

Take a look at the following Links. It should be no problem to say instead of "there are 4 million in Pakistan", that you say, "there are approximately 1-4 oR 2-4 million in Pakistan".

"From the National Chairman of the AMJ Germany, Uwe, Abdullah Wagishauser, one learns at a press conference on Friday that the security measures are in an attempt to assassinate the head of the AMJ in the 1940s had become necessary. In addition, the community was being persecuted in Pakistan. So be it recently came to attacks on Ahmadiyya mosques in the Islamic country. According to the community living in Pakistan currently has two million followers. These should be there but not publicly profess their faith."

http://www.ka-news.de/region/karlsruhe/Konservativ-und-friedvoll-30-000-Muslime-treffen-sich-in-Karlsruhe;art6066,651668

Google Translator: http://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ka-news.de%2Fregion%2Fkarlsruhe%2FKonservativ-und-friedvoll-30-000-Muslime-treffen-sich-in-Karlsruhe%3Bart6066%2C651668

Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada (2 million)

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,IRBC,,PAK,,49913b5f2c,0.html

US State Department says:

"Section I. Religious Demography

The country has a total area of 310,527 square miles, and its population is approximately 132 million. According to the 1998 census, an estimated 96 percent of the population are Muslim; 1.69 percent are Christian; 2.02 percent are Hindu; and 0.35 percent are "other" (including Ahmadis). The majority of Muslims in the country are Sunni. An estimated 10 to 15 percent of the Muslim population are Shi'a. It is estimated that there are between 550,000 and 600,000 Ismailis (a recognized Shi'a Muslim group). Most Ismailis in the country are followers of the Aga Khan; however, an estimated 50,000 Ismailis, known as Borahs, are not.

Religious minority groups believe that they are underrepresented in government census counts. Official and private estimates of their numbers can differ significantly. The most recent census estimates place the number of Christians at 2.09 million and the Ahmadi population at 286,000. The communities themselves each claim membership of approximately 4 million. "

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2002/14026.htm

This is my last post. It's your decision. I think Wikipedia should be more objective. If some say 2 million and others say 4 million. You don't know who are right. Adnan933 (talk) 09:38, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Not done: In this case it would be better to just leave the number alone until there is a source that is accurate.—cyberpower ^Chat_Online 23:04, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

worldwide population

Please take a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_Muslim_Community#Demographics

"Some internal sources estimate the worldwide population to be as high as 200 million."

This is not correct.

The worldwide population is about 10 million.

sources:

2011: http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/pakistani-ahmadis-seek-temporary-refuge-in-bangkok

Human Rights Watch

2010: 10 Million http://www.hrw.org/news/2010/06/01/pakistan-massacre-minority-ahmadis

2012: 10 Million http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/05/27/pakistan-prosecute-ahmadi-massacre-suspects

BBC says 10 Million: 2010: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8711026.stm

sources from Ahmadiyya:

On the official website of ahmadiyya is stated "tens of millions" http://www.alislam.org/introduction/index.html

Ahmadiyya US says also "tens of millions" http://www.ahmadiyya.us/documents/doc_download/915-20120208-release-sikh-temple-vandalism http://www.amacc.org.uk/about-us/

Ahmadiyya Canada says 10 million http://www.ahmadiyya.ca/jalsa/topstories.php?StoryId=10 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adnan933 (talk • contribs) 12:08, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Here's the quote from the BBC Story: "He [Hadhrat Mirza Masroor Ahmad] has, say the Ahmadiyyas, 200 million followers or a fifth of the world's Muslims. Mainstream Islam disputes this figure."[1] I think our article represents it fairly for what it is: an internal figure. It would probably be better to show a range with some of the lower numbers as well. —C.Fred (talk) 12:27, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

As it stands now, there certainly does seem to be an 'inconsistency' on the main page - where we read: "Some internal sources estimate the worldwide population to be as high as 200 million... The country with the most Ahmadis is Pakistan, where they number approximately 4 million" ... > so we are left wondering where the other 196 million could possibly be? I am not 'taking sides' one way or the other, incidentally - we just need to make our account sound plausible.--DLMcN (talk) 15:29, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Let's take a look what the Ahmadis said the last years.

1998: Hadayatullah Hübsch, long-time press spokesman said 12 million Ahmadis worldwide (source: http://mitglied.multimania.de/ahmadiyyaarchiv/ahmadiyyat/islam_forum/was_will_der_islam.html Google Translator: http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmitglied.multimania.de%2Fahmadiyyaarchiv%2Fahmadiyyat%2Fislam_forum%2Fwas_will_der_islam.html)

2004: The Ahmadiyya UK released a magazine / article and says: "During his 21 year period of Khalifat, the seed of Ahmadiyyat the true Islam had been sown in many new countries,making 175 countries in total and the Jama’at expanded from 10 million to over 180 million . He passed away on 19th April 2003 aged 74." (source: http://www.alislam.org/library/periodicals/tariq-uk/chapter1.pdf, Page 14)

2004: The Ahmadiyya UK released a book, it says: "Hadrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad (1928-2003) ... was loved and devoutly followed by his approximately 10 million Ahmadi Muslim followers all over the world as their Imam..." (source: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/muslims/with-love-to-Muslims.pdf, Page 3)

2005: The Ahmadiyya UK released another two books which says 10 million follower worldwide (source: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/WasAhmadiyyaJamaatPlantedByBritish.pdf, Page 3 and http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Apostasy-in-Islam.pdf, Page 5)

2005: The Ahmadiyya UK released a press release, it says 200 million worldwide (source: http://www.alislam.org/London-Bombings-Resources/Press-Release-London-Bombings.pdf)

2006: The Ahmadiyya UK released a press release and said again 200 million worldwide (source: http://www.alislam.org/press-release/profanity-feb3-06.pdf)

2007: The Ahmadiyya in Canada released an article, it says 10 million worldwide (http://www.ahmadiyya.ca/jalsa/topstories.php?StoryId=10)

2008 is a interesting year. In 2008 they released 3 different numbers.

2008: The Ahmadiyya in Sri Lanka released a press release, it says 220 million worldwide (source: http://www.lankaweb.com/news/items08/230208-2.html)

2008: On 14th June 2008 the fifth khalif said in an interview, that they have 70 million followers worldwide (source: http://alislam.org/khilafat/fifth/preaching%20peace.pdf)

2008: On 2nd December 2008 the fifth khalif said in another interview, that they have 170 million followers worldwide (source: http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/02/stories/2008120253950400.htm)

2009: The Ahmadiyya UK released a press released, it says 80 million worldwide (source: http://www.alislam.org/egazette/press-release/muslim-leader-urges-peaceful-propagation-of-islam/)

2009: The Ahmadiyya US says in an article "tens of millions" worldwide (source: http://www.ahmadiyya.us/about-ahmadiyya-muslim-community)

2010: The Ahmadiyya in New Zealand released a press release, it says "tens of millions" worldwide (source: http://www.ahmadiyya.org.nz/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=18&Itemid=)

2011: The Ahmadiyya in Germany released an article and says "several millions" worldwide (source: http://www.ahmadiyya-islam.org/de/news/artikel/date/2011/12/02/liebe-fuer-alle-hass-fuer-keinen-islamische-reformgemeinde-startet-plakataktion/)

2011: The Ahmadiyya Website "LoveForAllHatredForNone.org" and a press release of Ahmadiyya UK says 160 millions worldwide (source: http://www.loveforallhatredfornone.org/portfolio-item/community-relations-not-harmed-by-77/ and http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-releases/consumer-technology-latest-news/muslims-launch-new-peace-campaign-in-britain-153738465.html)

2012: The Ahmadiyya in Germany released an invitation for Jalsa Salana 2012, it says "tens of millions" worldwide (source: http://www.jalsasalana.de/2012/data/Jalsa-Salana-Deutschland-2012-Einladung.pdf)

2012: The Ahmadiyya in Germany says on the official website "tens of millions" worldwide (source: http://www.ahmadiyya-islam.org/de/ahmadiyya/einfuehrung/was-ist-ahmadiyyat/)

2012: The offical website of the Ahmadiyya International says "tens of millions" worldwide (source: http://www.alislam.org/introduction/index.html)

2012: The Ahmadiyya in Sweden and Portugal says "tens of millions" worldwide (source: http://www.ahmadiyya.se/community.php and http://www.ahmadia.pt/ahmadia.html)

2012: An charity organization of Ahmadiyya says "tens of millions" worldwide (source: http://www.amacc.org.uk/about-us/)

2012: The Ahmadiyya USA released a press release, it says "tens of millions" worldwide (source: http://www.ahmadiyya.us/documents/doc_download/915-20120208-release-sikh-temple-vandalism)

You can see the last 10 years of Ahmadiyya were full of contradictions. They don't know how many followers worldwide they have. We cannot trust them, because of too much contradictions. And this is only what the sources say, I have found by myself. There could be many more statements.

Take a look again at the numbers:

1998 they say 12 Mio

2004 suddenly 180 Mio and 10 Mio

2005 they say 200 Mio and 10 Mio

2006 they say 200 Mio

2007 again 10 Mio

2008 they told us three numbers:

220 Mio, 70 Mio and 170 Mio

2009 they say 80 Mio and "tens of millions"

2010 they say "tens of millions"

2011 they say "several millions" and 160 Mio

2012 they say "tens of millions"

That is only what the Ahmadiyya says and because of so many different states / claims, I cannot trust these numbers. What does "tens of millions" mean? It means a number between 10 and 90 million. So the Ahmadiyya by herself distanced from higher numbers. The reality is, that they have 10 millions followers worldwide. Take a look at the statistic by country and tell me where are they? Pakistan with approximately 2 to 4 million, has the most Ahmadis a country can have. So where are the other "millions"? Wikipedia should tell the people the truth and the truth in the eyes of Ahmadiyya actually is "tens of millions". The truth in the eyes of all others e.g. Human Rights Watch, International Press etc. says 10 million. So we should maybe write both numbers. Please remove the 200 million from Wikipedia. Thanks. Adnan933 (talk) 10:25, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the recent edit by PeaceWorld, let me go back to what I wrote here on 22nd June, namely: '... there certainly does seem to be an 'inconsistency' on the main page - where we read: "Some internal sources estimate the worldwide population to be as high as 200 million... The country with the most Ahmadis is Pakistan, where they number approximately 4 million" ... > so we are left wondering where the other 196 million could possibly be?' So perhaps we should revert PeaceWorld's edits? --DLMcN (talk) 17:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

[2] says 20 million. Let's use this, the BBC article which mentions the 200 million figure and the mainstream Islam figure of 10 million. Dougweller (talk) 18:49, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Ahmadiyya claims by year are irrelevant for writing on a encyclopedia. Please use reliable sources. --Ceddyfresse (talk) 22:43, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

the biggest lie on this article

In my previous posts I've proved that there is a big lie on this wikipedia article and I can't understand why you are not changing it. There are NO 200 millions ahmadis. Where is the proof? There is NO proof! Please read my previous posts with many statements from the ahmadiyya itself and press articles. IT IS CONTRADICTORY! It is important that there are no lies on wikipedia!

What is the exact problem to say on the article that the ahmadiyya itself says nowadays "tens of millions" and non-ahmadi media says 10 to 15. Please do a research by yourself and don't support lies! Adnan933 (talk) 14:11, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 26 February 2013

please do not caLL ahmadis as ahmedia muslim community...ahmadis are ahmadis the followers of a new man made religion...they have nothing to do with islam...change the title as ahmedia community only please.

203.175.64.100 (talk) 09:57, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Not done: Requests to move the article must be made at Wikipedia:Requested moves. Are you sure you aren't confusing the subject of this article with Ahmadiyya? —KuyaBriBri^Talk 15:54, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Merge to Ahmadiyya

This article should focus on matters and information specific to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, not to the Ahmadiyya faith in general. Tenets of Ahmadiyya faith and its history should be discussed at length at Ahmadiyya, not here. Therefore, I suggest the entire sections "Six articles of faith" and "History", and large portions of "Fulfilment of Prophecy" (except for a paragraph highlighting the differences with the mainstream Islam and with Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement) are merged to Ahmadiyya which should remain a "model article" for all information related to this religion. kashmiri ^TALK 09:39, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I support this. --Againme (talk) 16:36, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

The trouble is Lahore Ahmadiyya movement is a tiny fraction of the whole group, so essentially editing in only the concepts agreeable by both, the Lahore group and the main group, possibly clashe with WP:UNDUE. --Peaceworld 18:23, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Proposal

Here I set out a proposal: I have never really made any significant input to this page, but whoever did write the initial write-up several years ago seems to have done so with good intentions keeping in view NPOV, only the fact is this NPOV is increasingly clashing with WP:UNDUE. The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement represents a tiny fraction (<0.2% considering 15 million total estimate) of the mainstream Ahmadiyya movement and the main article Ahmadiyya seems to portray that the two sects are almost equally proportional with the main Ahmadiyya Muslim community only slightly larger. With this in mind, I intend to bring a major change to both articles Ahmadiyya and Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. Offcourse every article has its own uniqueness, but often it is best to take a good glimpse at other similar articles to see the way forward. Bahai Faith is a Featured article and like any other faith it has divisions and the only mention on the main page is:

With unity as an essential teaching of the religion, Bahá'ís follow an administration they believe is divinely ordained, and therefore see attempts to create schisms and divisions as efforts that are contrary to the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh. Schisms have occurred over the succession of authority, but any Bahá'í divisions have had relatively little success and have failed to attract a sizeable following. The followers of such divisions are regarded as Covenant-breakers and shunned, essentially excommunicated.

With all the points mentioned above, here I set out some proposals for the relevant articles:

• Ahmadiyya
  • I intend to merge the following sections from the Ahmadiyya Muslim community page to this page: Ahmadiyya Muslim Community#Six articles of faith, Ahmadiyya Muslim Community#Fulfilment of prophecy, Ahmadiyya Muslim Community#Demographics, Ahmadiyya Muslim Community#History and Ahmadiyya Muslim Community#Successors of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
  • I intend to remove Ahmadiyya#Comparison and possible create a new page which discusses the two differences.
  • Essentially the point is to merge the entire "Ahmadiyya Muslim Community" page into "Ahmadiyya" whilst also mentioning the Lahore Ahmadiyya movement, but keeping it minimal, i.e. at the right level.

• Ahmadiyya Muslim Community - I intend to keep this page separate which discusses the etymology and the origins of this name + attaching this name to the mainstream Ahmadiyya community. It is also worthy to that the main community uses various names depending on which country it is in: UK, USA - Ahmadiyya Muslim Commnity, Germany - Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama'at, West Africa: Ahmadiyya Muslim Mission Offcourse this is intentional depending what is suitable to which country.

Please do comment. Every comment should be helpful. I will probably not go ahead with the above proposal until some time. So if editors come to the conclusion that the above proposal is the right thing to do, then please go ahead. --Peaceworld 15:11, 3 March 2014 (UTC)