User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 158

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Suggestion for Wikipedia

two ideas that will make Wikipedia an extremely good web site:

• A new font for Wikipedia, perhaps Calibri or a derivative of a easy-to-ready font.

• in the View history section, add a new color purple to denote changes that both add and subtract bytes. Dark Liberty (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:43, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

User-interface changes take years: Those are interesting ideas, but currently, large changes to the user-interface take months to approve and more to schedule. Also, Jimbo has noted the major impact of changing the way 500 million people are reading Wikipedia, and so a complete font change is unlikely. For the page-size changes +/-, the software would likely need to store the 2 counts of increase/decrease bytes, but it would be great to see combined +/- history counts such as "(+60/-68= -8)". In general, I have noticed how a small count, such as +4 or -3 bytes is almost always a small update of 1-3 areas of a page, whereas larger counts such as -53 often indicate several changes. Perhaps if there were 2 competing sets of user-interface designs, then Wikipedia's features could be improved in either interface within months, rather than years. Currently, progress runs at snail's pace, and common problems are typically not fixed, such as wp:edit-conflicts or the cramped page-format limit (wp:post-expand include size), while unusual rare things are altered instead, such as math-tag cache algorithms or writing music-notation markup (with tag: <score>). However, the authorization of the new wp:template editors has led to actual rapid improvements, with hundreds of templates recently updated after 2-3 years of stagnation due to lack of time/motivation to handle protected pages. -Wikid77 19:14, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

It's really not hard to set font to be Calibri if you want. Just go to Special:Mypage/common.css and type the following:

p {font-family:calibri}

dd {font-family:calibri}

And save it, and you'll enjoy the, um, marvels of this font. (That is, provided you haven't set your browser to override the document font settings like I had, and forgotten about it...) For those who don't want to edit the css, just rub a little honey on your monitor and you should get the idea. :) Seriously, the way that Wikipedia minor format improvements ought to work is viral - you learn a little bit of CSS playing around with Help:User style, pass it on to your friends, once something gets some legs the devs can see about making it an option. Wnt (talk) 20:06, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

• Within a decade, not now. doesn't have to be Calibri, it could be a whole new entirely font that Wikipedia provides, that's up to the Wikipedia foundation. Dark Liberty (talk) 06:58, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

It's not a good idea for websites to be so prescriptive about the font used for it's "bulk text". Doing so would violate WP:Accessibility as users who have customized their browsers to use specific font types and/or sizes to accommodate poor vision would then have their setting overridden. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:41, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

It's really very common for websites to suggest font-families - otherwise they'd all look the same. The browser setting can override this - for example, I had the browser set that way when I first tried using the CSS above and I didn't see any change at all. Wnt (talk) 13:19, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

• Perhaps responding to my excellency was a mistake, because I concluded that no font changes were necessary, and Wikipedia should stay as is, while reinforcing that any font change would not be browser-specific. We are not catering to handicaps, without any increase in filesize once the technology allows. Take it or leave it. Dark Liberty (talk) 21:02, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Death of a Wikipedian

Ihor Kostenko

February 20, 2014, during the protests in Kiev, Ihor Kostenko – an active contributor to the Ukrainian Wikipedia, journalist and geography student – died tragically.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:38, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

• This is borrowed from James Alexander's mailing list post about Igor, but I find it fitting:

Whether our lives and our deaths were for peace and a new hope or for nothing we cannot say, it is you who must say this.

We leave you our deaths. Give them their meaning. We were young, they say. We have died; remember us.

--Archibald MacLeish

Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:48, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

See 2014 Ukrainian revolution, perhaps that gives some meaning. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 05:54, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks Jimmy for letting us know. I recognize the name. I am sorry for his family's loss.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:59, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

There was some argument about notability of the article on him - originally in the main space then moved to User:Ig2000. The Ukrainian Parliament (Rada) decided to give Hero of Ukraine status to all supporters of the revolution who were killed [1] but the decision requires the President's signature an so it can only becam the law after election (do not expect the ousted President to give orders to people who has ousted him). Since Heroes of Ukraine are inheritably notable it would remove the problems with notability. He seems to be a very good guy, quite active on Ukrainian wiki and helpful on en-wiki. Condolences to his friends and family Alex Bakharev (talk) 07:38, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Mr. Wales, I think there is a meaningful and enduring way to memorialize Ihor Kostenko worldwide. Imagine that, near the end of each calendar year, the WMF ran a banner on all projects calling for nominations for an Igor Kostenko Award to recognize a Wikimedia contributor who has diligently worked (for example) to document contentious social issues in a way that is deeply penetrating, professional, and comprehensive. You could arrange for a board of volunteers to select a winner, then create a press release in coordination with the editor that highlights and explains an ongoing social issue he was working on. If the editor desired, he could accept the award at a WMF event in a public way, but the news of the selection could always be released first on February 20, so that reporters covering these stories would always take a moment to explain who Ihor Kostenko was and what the day means. And just maybe, by educating more people before a conflict comes to a head, some day one of these award winners will have stayed some future sniper's hand and saved some other Ihor, even if we will never know it. Wnt (talk) 03:35, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

• I think Wnt's idea is a very good one and one that ought to be implemented. Prayers for Kostenko, for the other martyrs on the altar of freedom, and for their families.--ColonelHenry (talk) 00:42, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

• I believe that correct spelling of his firs name is "Igor"50.143.130.25 (talk) 04:49, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I have no knowledge of these things myself, but List of people killed during Euromaidan uses "Ihor". According to Ukranian language, The Ukrainian language, in common with Czech, Slovak, Upper Sorbian, Belarusian and southern Russian dialects has changed the Common Slavic "g" into an "h" sound (for example, noha – leg).^[2] Wnt (talk) 13:48, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

the ninth day

Tomorrow, February 28, is the ninth day as Ihor died.

February 26, 27 and 28 mark the ninth day of death on the Maidan, with most of the dead being innocent victims.

Let us commemorate them.

Each of those who died for us is like the Lamb of God: innocent, with heart full of love, forever our intercessor before the face of God. The worth of each is equal to an armed army consisting of millions.

These days each is commemorated by tens of millions of Ukrainian citizens and by billions of mankind in the entire world.

Let us not forget that Forgiveness Sunday soon dawns on us.

— Yuriy Dzyаdyk (t•c), 16:41, 27 February 2014 (UTC).

A barnstar for you!

	The Brilliant Idea Barnstar
	Thank you for making a free uncopyrighted encyclopedia A915 (talk) 15:14, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Paid advocacy editor donors

Jimbo, we know and support your firm stance against paid advocacy editors -- they have no welcome here at Wikipedia. What if a paid advocacy editor's company presented you a substantial financial donation to the Wikimedia Foundation? Would you accept that donation on behalf of the Foundation, or would you tear it up in their face? Signed, 97.68.110.99 (talk) 17:42, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I think we should accept their donation and ban them from editing. And then spend their money on a full-time employee to identify and block undisclosed paid advocacy editing accounts.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:40, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

It has been pointed out in a Wikipediocracy thread that someone is already performing this valuable service free of charge. I suggest a better use of funds would be the hiring of a few more experienced software engineers. Carrite (talk) 22:01, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

that someone is already performing this valuable service free of charge Whom? KonveyorBelt 22:55, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I had the same question. I looked on that website and didn't see anything. Coretheapple (talk) 23:31, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

My answer was humorous but the actual proposal is not. I do think we should think about asking the Foundation to invest more resources in helping us to defend Wikipedia against the forces of darkness. That might take the form of engineering resources to some extent, but it could (and I think should) involve some community management resources as well.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:29, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Mr. 2001 has an ongoing thread, about 11 pages x 50 entries long... Carrite (talk) 00:27, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Mr. 2001 admits on a regular basis to sockpuppeting to secretly edit for his clients. I hardly think he's an appropriate person for the job.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:29, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Dunno, have you read that thread? It's pretty impressive work. (Of course he socks for clients as well. The point of the exercise on his part, I presume, is that paid editing at WP is massive, pervasive, and that he has been unfairly targeted.) Carrite (talk) 00:35, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I think that's his point. We should also add that a big part of his work there is to attempt (entirely unsuccessfully because it isn't true) to show that I'm a hypocrite and allow friends/partners to engage in this sort of thing. But my point is: a serious discussion of this issue can't really start with assuming that Mr. 2001 is our best line of defense.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:55, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

The thread in question is this one. Easier for the gang to know what you're talking about when you add the link, Carrite ;-).

FWIW, Jimmy, having the WMF create paid positions to investigate paid editing makes waaaaaaay more sense than putting lynch mobs and/or unpaid (and uninsured) checkusers in charge of the effort. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 01:32, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Well, my friend, I think you and I both know why I didn't link to that, although your link is up for a little while without being revdeleted and you being hauled to ANI for a serious crime against the state... Obviously, you can't have identification of paid editors without identification of editors, which is why the whole notion of banning paid editing is a bit silly under existing "outing" rules. If WMF wants to get serious about Real Name Identification and Sign-In-To-Edit, then and only then will it be possible to chase and toss paid editors successfully. The level of support for that on-wiki is probably in the neighborhood of 5 to 10%, just guessing. Carrite (talk) 02:27, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

That message thread on Wikipediocracy is useful, but it's also grotesquely hypocritical, very much like the occasional message threads we have on this page in which paid editors bemoan the sorry state of ethics on Wikipedia and the terrible ethics of a founder. That Wikipediocracy thread's aim is to undermine the competitors of one particular paid editor. He's amusing, and certainly knows whereof he speaks, as well as a longstanding grievance that is not entirely unwarranted,but he has a commercial interest as well as a personal axe to grind. Finding undisclosed paid editors is not hard, however, because all that one really has to do is go through company articles one by one and look at their editing history. Coretheapple (talk) 02:39, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I suppose the real question is: is WP better off with or without the mass of company articles? Because volunteers aren't gonna write them... As I've mentioned to you before, one big takeaway from my oDesk ad seeking a paid editing gigs on WP is that paid editing topics are all very, very, very boring. You might even add one more "very" to that... For those topics to exist as WP articles, they're gonna be done on a pay-to-play basis, and that's a fact. So is WP better off with these pieces or without them? I'm not entirely clear on that myself. I think they're probably inevitable at this point, as is, by extension, paid editing. Carrite (talk) 05:40, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't believe paid editing is "inevitable at this point". I think there are a lot of people taking advantage of Wikipedia to cash in and in some ways that's predatory behavior, especially if you consider that all content paid to be here is going to be deleted if discovered. Are these people having their cake and eating it too? Are they getting paid to contribute material bound to be deleted if uncovered and still keep the cash? Is stealth editing any better when honesty is thrown out the window in order to make a buck on the backs of honest editors?--Mark Miller (talk) 05:57, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Mark, you say: "especially if you consider that all content paid to be here is going to be deleted if discovered"? That is so patently false, I'm not sure if you're deliberately misleading the reader, or if you're just utterly misinformed. We regularly see paid content "discovered", and yet nothing at all is done to delete it, or even trim back the self-promotional tone. - Checking the checkers (talk) 16:09, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Are you trying to mislead the reader? All I know is this, when a paid editor is discovered and confirmed to have been paid to provide content, I see it get deleted and then returned in a different form by others if it is relevant. Sure, I suppose there is no way for this to be true every time, but in most cases it is, because we are encouraged to remove all content from COI editors that violate policy and guidelines. The only thing is, COI and paid advocacy editing are not the same thing. A theatre producer who wants to promote his theatre and his work will stick the content into the main city page and fill it up with very promotional content, but he wasn't actually paid by anyone, he just has a financial stake in promoting himself. Sure, go after that editor too much and they will just accuse you of holding a grudge and almost all of that content remains on the article, but that is because of a consensus of editors that the COI was not enough to remove the content altogether. Now our standards have changed and that may no longer be the case, but the last time I confirmed a COI editor I was told to go ahead and remove all the content from that editor that was blatantly promotional...and I did.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:19, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Stuff that's overtly promotional is routinely (but by no means invariably) removed all the time, without regard to who writes it. But professional p.r. and paid editing firms, and the individual entrepreneurs who ply their trade on Wikipedia, have refined techniques that allow them to insert articles about their clients in Wikipedia, and/or elevation of articles about their clients to GA status, all the while remaining within Wiki rules. So they promote the hell out of their clients, creating neat little advertorials, all the while gathering garlands and atta-boys and barnstars by the truckload. They openly proclaim that they are paid, and if they feel like it they deign to disclose what they do to other editors, but absolutely never to readers. Readers think they've got an article by Wikipedia editors on their hands, but it's really a slick piece of p.r. So you have a cottage industry that has grown up over this, and the Foundation is, in its own chickens--t way, dealing with this exploitation of the Wikipedia brand. Sometimes they're not slick, but it doesn't matter because paid editing is permitted by Wiki rules, and articles prepared for purposes of promotion are hard to delete. Coretheapple (talk) 23:28, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

"[P]aid editing is permitted by Wiki rules" It is? Could you elaborate on that please? I think I get what you're saying here but want to be sure.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:20, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Of course it. I'm surprised you ask that. Take a look at WP:COI. It's just a guideline. Take a look at the TOU discussion on Meta, and the thousands of words that have been poured into discussions in RfCs of various kinds in recent months. I encounter paid editing every day, perfectly acceptable, admitted and permitted, It shouldn't be, but it is. You might have noticed my discussion with Carrite at the bottom of this section. Coretheapple (talk) 14:49, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually it's true that only the most promotional articles on non-notable subjects are deleted. I commenced an AfD recently on an article about a product of marginal at best notability written by a person openly affiliated with the manufacturer, and it is by no means assured of deletion. In fact, it stands a good chance of being kept, giving that manufacturer an advertorial in the pages of Wikipedia, paid for by WMF donors, defended by Wikipedia editors. Pretty dreadful. Is that a reason to allow paid editing? On the contrary, it's yet another reason to ban it. Should we tighten up the notability standards for companies? Probably. But that deficiency is not a reason to sigh and say "paid editing is inevitable" and let that blatant corruption continue to taint Wikipedia content. Coretheapple (talk) 16:35, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Well, see, here's the thing: you depict paid editing as "blatant corruption" and I think it is a natural and inevitable phenomenon that has always existed since WP got bigger than a breadbox, is currently existing, and will always exist. It is not corrupt on the face of it, any more than paying the neighbor kid $20 to mow your lawn is "corruption" of the landscapers' art. We do all agree, every one of us, without an exception, that WP articles need to maintain NPOV. We do all agree, every one of us, without an exception, that paid editors have a subtle or overt interest in "cheating" on NPOV and therefore need to be restricted in some way. The question is, how does one get rid of the problematic editing, if one assumes that paid editing is inevitable? Chasing paid editors around with whirring chainsaws just makes them hide. They need to be brought to the table, informed of the rules, and their output closely scrutinized. Carrite (talk) 19:50, 27 February 2014 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 19:53, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

No, they need to put out of business, not treated like heroin addicts that you need to coax off the hard stuff. Paid editing is a parasitic business model, not a social problem. Banning it will effectively get rid of the paid-editing mills, because only the sleaziest clients, those without codes of ethics required of most companies bigger than a breadbox, would hire a firm to violate a website's Terms of Use. Yes you'll still have the would-be rock singers and corner restaurants writing articles about themselves, and you always will. But that's not paid editing, really, it's COI editing. Mr. 2001 and his ilk like to conflate the two because, you see, they are in the paid editing business. Coretheapple (talk) 20:02, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Paid editing is not a "business model" — it's the simple exchange of a service for cash, which is fundamental in all capitalist societies. Now, each of the big paid editing firms have their own business models, which differ one to the next. ODesk, for example, works on a commission system where they bring together sellers and buyers of free-lance writing skill and collect a percentage of the billable amount (adding 11.1% to the freelancer's ticket price so that they gross 10% of the total amount billed — it's an arithmetic thing, don't think about it too hard). That's their business model. I'm sure there are others. But paid editing is essentially a simple sale of labor-power to perform a more or less distasteful service — spending time writing about something really, really, really boring. Carrite (talk) 22:09, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

The operative term is "business." If predicated on violating a company's terms of use, it is not a business I or any rational person would want to be in, or would hire. I would find another way to get my company's name before the public. A self-written Wikipedia article is a cheap way of getting one's image, crafted by the company, out on the Internet in a top-ranked Google search. Make it a "black hat" practice and I don't see companies bucking it. I happen to believe that American corporations and organizations, large and small, are fundamentally honest and want to do the right thing. Others view them as drug addicts who will find any way to get their self-written words into Wikipedia. Not my view. Coretheapple (talk) 22:51, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Aside from the question that WP couldn't ban paid editing given standing "outing" rules if they had the will to try, which they don't........ Put yourself in the place of the owner of the ABZ Informational Solutions software company. Competitors A, B, and C already have Wikipedia pages — no way that Mr. ABZ will be taking "no" for an answer, and there is no way to get the GNG-compliant articles for Competitors A, B, and C out of WP. No volunteer in their right mind is gonna waste half a day gathering sources and writing up ABZ Informational Solutions, describing the history of their signature RebWarePro package or the company history, that big merger with DynamasticSynchTemp back in 2009. Oh, and the MacaVedian spinoff in 2011, I forgot that. Don't worry, there are sources showing for all this in the trade papers... Again, NOBODY is gonna write that as a WP volunteer. So Mr. ABZ has a choice: (a) Do nothing and face a competitive disadvantage against Competitors A, B, and C. (b) Put on a "black hat" and write the page himself. (c) Hook up with the neighborhood kid and pay him $20 to mow the lawn. You'll see a little bit of B and a lot of C. But you're kidding yourself if you think businesspeople surrender to their competitors to be polite, 'cause their competitors have already set what is now a long-established precedent... Carrite (talk) 00:40, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

OK, I understand completely your point but here is the problem with it: you say, no way that Mr. ABZ will be taking "no" for an answer and various other statements along those lines. Your premise is that Mr. ABZ is just obsessed with Wikipedia, that it is a big priority for him, so big that he might break Wikipedia rules in pursuit of this obsession, to rectify this so-called "competitive disadvantage" as you put it.

We are Wikipedia editors. We spend time on this site, working on articles, doing stuff like that. For some of us, our worlds revolve around Wikipedia. We are unusual. In the vast world out there, very few business owners are so obsessed with Wikipedia that they would violate Wikipedia's terms of use to rectify a "competitive disadvantage" that they don't have an article, or an article of sufficient depth and glory, on their company. For a businessman who runs a company, there are 10,000 things of greater importance in life. His life revolves around his business, not Wikipedia or the search results that he gets on Google. True, as I am acutely aware, at the present time we have large companies deploying p.r. people to massage their Wikipedia articles. But they do so in strict accordance with the Terms of Use. If the Terms of Use told them to be gone, they would be gone. For the owner of a business of any size to be so obsessed with Wikipedia to behave as you suggest, he would have a totally skewed view of reality. He wouldn't be fit to run an elevator much less a company.

So no, to respond to your scenario, unless he is borderline crazy, Mr. ABZ is not going to do any of those things. He's not going to give a damn. His PR man is not going to give a damn. If his PR man notices, and cares enough to try to fix his absence of Wikipedia coverage by hiring a Wikipedia firm, he will drop the idea in a flash if it turns out that Wikipedia doesn't allow that kind of thing. That is how a real businessman thinks. Coretheapple (talk) 01:18, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Again, I've already bumped into this phenomenon first hand from real world, personal experience. I know of what I speak. If competitors A, B, and C are in WP, D is going to get into WP. And E. And F. It's not "crazy," it's the natural way that business people are wired. At a certain scale, it becomes somebody's JOB to have a presence on the web in the social media — and that means on WP. Terms of use? Might slow down a few, won't touch the big majority. That's sort of like trying to stop a departing football crowd from crossing the street with a new jaywalking ordinance. Carrite (talk) 07:47, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

So first you talk about a business owner and now it's a some pimply faced social media guy in a cubicle somewhere? Some of them barely know how to wipe their rumps. Sure, they'll do black-hat and worse. Then they'll be discovered and fired. OR not. Doesn't matter, the Foundation has got to do what it's got to do. It has a franchise, and it has to protect it. Again, I have a lot more respect for corporations than you do and a great deal less regard for the allure of Wikipedia in the outside world. Sure, the Foundation has been letting an entire industry spring up to build up corporate brands at the expense of Wikipedia's reputation. Ending that is a survival imperative, because Wikipedia cannot afford to see its reputation shredded even more than it already has been. As for jaywalking ordinances: you may have read in the NYC papers recently that jaywalking results in traffic fatalities, and that jaywalking tickets are now being handed out in greater numbers. We have jaywalking ordinances even though people jaywalk. Coretheapple (talk) 14:44, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

2nd-tier treatment for COI, resumes, or non-English

I suggest to avoid those COI or non-English pages. When trying to update thousands of articles for the wp:GOCE, the Guild members see many pages which are either tagged "COI" or wp:PEACOCK or read like resumes (CV) with lists of personal accomplishments or books written, etc. It is not unusual for copy-editing of a resume-style page to consume 2 or 3 hours (to rewrite as NPOV text or trim lists), so my response has been to re-tag pages as "{resume-like|date=__}" or "{cleanup|date=__}" for some rainy day years from now. Meanwhile, we have experts lamenting the quality of our core, wp:VITAL articles, while we have been polishing many resumes or corporate adverts. Likewise, numerous pages are half-translated, other-language transfers to enwiki, and because re-translation can be so tedious, I often re-tag those as {{rough translation}} with only partial copy-edit to reach minimal coherence. I understand how those COI pages cover notable topics, but we need to draw a line. Due to all the distractions from COI, resumes or non-English pages, I think more people should follow wp:5000 or other lists of major articles to be updated. Otherwise, WP is becoming a bottomless pit of Knol-wannabe adverts which should be given 2nd-tier treatment. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:46, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely correct. Coretheapple (talk) 17:52, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Mass restoration of URAA-violating files

Hello, Mr. Wales. In all my time on Wikipedia - and it's been extensive, I have never sought to rock the boat too much. However, I don't know how else to get the attention of the WMF, so I'm going through its former leader.

The WMF board recently passed a resolution stating that Commons did not need to complete a mass deletion of URAA files. Some users have taken it upon themselves to hold a "vote" to restore the already deleted URAA files, despite clear instructions from the WMF previously that such a thing should not be done.

The discussion is here: commons:Commons:Massive restoration of deleted images by the URAA. Predictably, it is full of bad reasoning, most prominently a lot of WP:ILIKEIT, WP:JUSTAVOTE, and a lot of people misstating the facts on the ground (e.g., that it is a "misinterpretation" of the URAA to assume that these images are copyrighted, when the Supreme Court unequivocally just stated it is not). Seriously - I recommend you take a look at the votes in favor - the strong majority are very poorly reasoned.

Just as a judge is under no obligation to enforce a law which is plainly unconstitutional, so I am not under any obligation to recognize a community "consensus" which plainly runs counter to the aims of the project and WMF. And restoring copyrighted files without an OK from the WMF is exactly such a thing - and yet that's about to happen. This is really bad, because I am absolutely willing to use my administrator tools to make sure this doesn't happen - which will result in me wheel warring, and probably a successful request for my deadminship. Does the WMF really want to have to decide what to do when Commons decides to desysop one of its most prominent administrators solely because that administrator has enforced the WMF's rules and deleted copyright violations?'

And I am in fact a prominent administrator: I was recently elected a checkuser. Additionally, I have written and maintain by far the most prolific bots there - they have 770,000 edits between them. My bots are instrumental in helping the (very small number that we have of) page patrollers to find copyright violations and other out of scope material.

And make no mistake: Commons is already >< close to becoming a cesspool of unmaintained copyvios and duckfaced 11-year-old selfies. We are absolutely in a crisis. The number of deletions has been cut in half since only a year ago, despite the fact that the number of uploads has increased in the same period (source - and my personal experience tells me it's been even worse over a longer timeframe). If you want to see how many completely stupid pages we get and never take care of, take a look at one of the galleries that my bot maintains (link). You'll find literally hundreds of useless selfies and copyvios which are uploaded every day and never deleted (this is an unpredicted and unfortunate side effect of the new mobile upload tool, and the fact that the new upload wizard simply makes it easier for newbies to figure out how to upload copyvios).

As such, I strongly request that the WMF step in. If the decision is that we should restore URAA copyvios under some sort of US fair use clause, I can accept that. But I will not stand by while Commons willfully distorts a recent WMF statement to restore a bunch of copyright violations.

Thanks for your time. And please pardon me if I am unintentionally climbing the Reichstag dressed as Spiderman. If there is someone around who is sane and loves free content as much as I do, feel free to smack me with a trout.

Regards. Magog the Ogre (t • c) 02:23, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

This all comes around, ultimately, of the question Why Commons? Is it an entity to coordinate the illustration of the various language encyclopedias? Is it an independent entity to curate the storage and dissemination of copyright-clear graphics files, which may or may not be used to illustrate the various language encyclopedias? Commons thinks it is the latter and it has selected a mission bigger than its capacity for administration. This completely independent of the philosophical question revolving around the slogan "Wikipedia is Not Censored" and the practical implications of that; and independent of the very real fact that Commons has accumulated a number of combative and problematic administrators, who are now entrenched in power.

I favor a radical solution myself: eliminate Commons altogether, let the various language encyclopedias host their own illustrations, and come up with new methods of inter-encyclopedia file sharing. Let the Commons Administrators so wishing fork and have their own Not Censored, Flicker Washed Utopia of Non-Germane Files. It's actually a reasonably simple way to go. Problem solved. Carrite (talk) 02:52, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't see the grounds for Magog's complaints. The uploads by new users are much nicer than I expected, not too many random snapshots and a modest fraction of copyvios. These cannot possibly be avoided in any image server that allows anyone to upload material. The decision to undo deletions based on URAA appears to be based, at least in part, on the belief that much material was deleted in error. If the WMF says there's no rush to delete the material, then there's no need to do it badly. Any practical web firm (Google, Facebook) puts a higher priority on allowing users to do things than eliminating all copyright violations proactively. Do you expect Commons to be the first fully sanitized server? WMF's efforts would better be spent on rallying users to support some new initiative to fight URAA in the United States, so that American content creators from the lone blogger to the Hollywood studio have the same freedom to vacuum up public domain material as their international competitors. Wnt (talk) 03:53, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

(some are better than others; you may have looked at one that was patrolled. Try looking at the old version of this page, where about half of the uploads by users with only one contribution are now deleted: commons:Special:PermanentLink/117194043. Magog the Ogre (t • c) 04:57, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I'll concede that substantial numbers of images have been deleted, representing a lot of admin work [3]; nonetheless, even for the newest users, this is less than half the uploads, with many of the others being obviously valuable content that is well worth some administrative overburden. The bulk of the deletions [4] represent proactive copyright enforcement, which is sometimes simple copy and paste from the web, but also often that a new user simply failed to pull down and specify a license term and didn't look back, or presumptions based on deletion discussions, or out and out copyright lunacy like people not being allowed to take a picture of statues in the middle of downtown (or sometimes, even "artistically" designed stairwells or landmarks like the Eiffel Tower!). I can't expect new users to avoid all of that - nobody in the world can predict or replicate copyright decisions with any accuracy, whether they are made by a supreme court or a Wikipedia volunteer. Wnt (talk) 08:34, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually, although half of the files were removed, this doesn't mean that all copyright violations have been removed. It takes a lot of time to tag and find copyright violations, and there might be several copyright violations left on that page. I often find several week-old or month-old copyright violations on Commons. --Stefan2 (talk) 15:31, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't believe the problem is really with the deletions. The issue is that many people do not understand the WMF's position, or Commons policies, so they think the deletions are problematic when they are not. The unclear recent Board statement didn't help. --Avenue (talk) 04:16, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

A lot has to do with the faulty policy that needs an immediate reform. Commons is the centralized repository used by ALL wiki projects from ALL countries. This one-sided view of it from the United States point of view is harming everything. The argument that it's hosted on servers in San Francisco is EVEN MORE problematic because EVERYTHING is hosted there, including the he.wikipedia.org and es.wikipedia.org (where 100s of PD-Israel photos were mass-deleted under URAA IN THE FIRST PLACE)! If the he wikipedia can upload their photos as public domain there, why is commons being overly anal about it? So much cherry picking going on it's crazy. As for the BoT reply, you are right. It seems to have been left intentionally ambiguous; that's not helping anything either. --CyberXRef^☎ 20:17, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Because of the way DMCA safe haven provisions work, the Wikimedia Foundation must not keep any copyright violations which the Foundation is aware of. Even if the Foundation happens to know about some violations, the Foundation must to pretend that it does not, and the Foundation must not recommend users to violate copyright law. Otherwise, the Foundation risks being personally responsible for some or all copyright violations on Wikimedia projects, and risks losing a lot of money if sued by some copyright holder. This is why all statements by the Foundation are so vague. --Stefan2 (talk) 23:01, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Which clearly doesn't help anyone especially when the reply is used to direct the community (Yes, I know some like to argue otherwise). --CyberXRef^☎ 23:40, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

@Magog the Ogre: this just was just published by the Legal Counsel of Wikimedia Foundation: m:Legal and Community Advocacy/Wikimedia Server Location and Free Knowledge, it's one more thing to consider as you continue to pursue your radical position. It's pretty clear we don't really know where to draw the line regarding URAA; Deleting anything that could possibly, under a clear sky, at just the right angle look like a URAA violation goes directly against the idea of pushing back against overreaching. --CyberXRef^☎ 04:53, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I've reviewed several of the URAA deletions since this was raised at COM:AN a few days ago, and all of them were clear cut cases of restored copyright. According to meta:Legal and Community Advocacy/URAA Statement, which was posted a year ago, they should indeed be deleted. (Quote: "The community should evaluate each potentially affected work using the guidelines issued by the Legal and Community Advocacy Department, as well as the language of the statute itself, and remove works that are clearly infringing.")

The more recent statements by WM Legal and the Board have muddied the waters only in that they say nothing about what editors should do, but only talk about deletions by the WMF itself (which would take place only under specific and rare conditions). People seem to be reading this as overturning WM Legal's earlier statement, but I don't see why. Maybe failure to distinguish between mass deletions (of 1000s of files) and bulk deletions (of 10s of files) might have caused part of the confusion, but that doesn't explain it all.

The truly radical position here is the proposal that we should knowingly host copyvios, despite a Supreme Court decision making it very clear that's what they are. --Avenue (talk) 07:09, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

If it's clearly copyrighted and you can easily prove it, of course it should be deleted. No argument there. But many of the images were deleted even after there were strong evidence to the contrary. --CyberXRef^☎ 07:40, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Do you have an example (of a deleted URAA-affected image with strong evidence against it being a copyvio)? --Avenue (talk) 14:35, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

From that link I see:

"However, if a work’s status remains ambiguous after evaluation under the guidelines, it may be premature to delete the work prior to receiving a formal take-down notice, because these notices often contain information that is crucial to the determination of copyright status. Due to the complexity of the URAA, it is likely that only a small number of the potentially affected works will be subject to such notices. These guidelines differ from the more proactive systems currently used by the community for other copyright violations, but the complexity and fact-intensive nature of the URAA analysis makes a more active approach imprudent."

This tells me we want to keep unclear PD/URAA photos so that the legal team could see what's involved in such a notice. If such notice ever arrives. --CyberXRef^☎ 07:49, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

There are a few issues which may make the URAA status unclear:

• If a work is published in the United States within 30 days after its initial publication, then no restoration takes place. Photographs of important events are often published worldwide when the event occurs, so some photographs will be exempt from restoration because of this. There will typically be more photographs in the media in the country where the event took place, than in other countries. Therefore, not all photographs of important events will be exempt from URAA, only some of them. If a case goes to court in the United States, I assume that it is up to the person claiming that the work is in the public domain to show that it was published in the United States within 30 days, and that the person claiming to be the copyright holder doesn't need to show anything.
• If a work is created by a citizen of the United States residing in the United States, then it is also exempt from restoration. For example, if a publication contains a photo by "an anonymous foreign tourist", and the anonymous tourist happens to be an American, then the photograph is exempt from restoration. Of course, identifying the citizenship and country of residence of an anonymous person is difficult.

I'm not sure if these are the "ambiguous" cases that the Foundation refers to. The uploader is typically required to show that one of these special cases applies, or else the file will be deleted. Another source of ambiguity is that the copyright status in the United States usually depends on the date of first publication, which is often unknown. For example, if a painting was drawn in 1922, then we don't know whether it already was published in 1922 (making it PD) or whether it was first published during the following year (making it copyrighted). It is very often unknown when paintings and photographs were first published as images tend to come from third sources which do not reveal the publication history. On Commons, files tend to be deleted if they impossibly can have been published before 1923 (or whichever other year the copyright status depends on), for example if they were created after 1922. In other situations, it is more complex. --Stefan2 (talk) 13:58, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

You're invited: Women's History Edit-a-thons in Massachusetts this March

Wikimedia Azerbaijan?

Hello, Mr Wales, Are you aware of National Wikipedia Forum (http://wikimedia.az/forma/#.UxbAF_nV_X8) to be held in Azerbaijan by Wikimedia Azerbaijan (www.wikimedia.az)? Is this organization licensed with Wikimedia Foundation? Is the forum funded by Wikimedia Foundation?