Talk:Palmistry

Hand shapes

The article says that hand shapes are divided into four or ten shapes, and then goes on to talk about the four hand shapes, without any reference or elucidation on the ten. Is there actually a system of ten hand shape groups? I hadn't heard anything about that before, but if there is, that part of the article could really use a reference.

Linea Vitalis

You can get an idea about Love Marriage by Fate Line, Head Line, Marriage Line, or Heart Line. If the sign is good then there will be no problem in Love Marriage but if sign is not good then problems come in Love Marriage or Love Marriage does not happen or Love Marriage breaks after happening. Source: http://indianpalmreading.blogspot.in/2012/08/signs-of-love-marriage-breakup-palmistry.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nitinkumarpalmist (talk • contribs) 02:31, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

The Life Line is the most important line on your hand and is always present. It represents vitality and the length of your life. Source: http://www.chacha.com/question/why-are-the-lines-on-your-palm-called-life-lines

Linea [lin′ē•ə] Etymology: L, line A line defining anatomic features, such as the linea vitalis curving across the palm at the base of the thumb. Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 8th edition. 2009, Elsevier. Source: http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/linea

It will be seen that the linea vitalis, or life line, which marks off the ball of the thumb from the rest of the hand, is caused by the extensive range of opposability enjoyed by the thumb. Anthropological notes on the human hand. by Frank Baker, hf. D., Professor of Anatomy, University of Georgetown. Washington, D. C. January 1888, p. 64 Source: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/122471812/PDFSTART

GERMAN: Linea vitae, Synonyme: "Lebenslinie" Definition:Die Linea Vitalis ist eine Beugefalte der Hohlhand. Sie fängt zwischen dem Daumen und dem Zeigefinger am radialen Rand der Hohlhand an und läuft entlang des Daumenballens in Richtung der Handwurzel. Source: http://www.flexikon.doccheck.com/Linea_vitalis

DUTCH: linea vitalis, levenslijn Definition in The Netherlands: huidlijn in de handpalm rondom de duimbasis, ontstaan door de oppositiebewegingen van de duim Source: Medical Dictionary, http://www.mijnwoordenboek.nl/thema/ME/NL/EN/L/6 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.139.207.29 (talk) 15:43, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

The first meaning of Linea Vitalis is 'line of life'. As in 'to throw someone a life line', to pull you away from somewhere you don't want to be and into a better place. The second meaning is 'path of life'; the road you choose to follow in your life. Your personal voyage. And the line called Linea Vitalis on your hand symbolises this individual journey. Source: http://www.vitaliscoaching.com/services/services.html

SPANISH: Línea de la Vida (Vitalis) Es la línea más conocida e importante de nuestra mano, pues la relacionamos con nuestra propia vida, con el camino que seguiremos a lo largo de nuestros años, con nuestros problemas y las soluciones que tomemos. Source: http://magiamania.com/2009/09/24/interpretar-las-rayas-de-la-mano/

Right Hand

If we're to read the dominant hand and most of us are righties, why is the diagram of a left hand?

~Because the sinistral are, if the brain hemisphere heuristic works, better at understanding palmistry than righties.

NPOV tag

I added the NPOV tag because this article is a disgrace. Anyone coming to read this would think that it's 100% completely real and legit and scientific even. It needs massive improvement. DreamGuy 15:48, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

It exists. We can describe it. Do you actually understand that an encyclopedia consists of descriptions of things and not your opinion about them? Catherineyronwode (talk) 20:52, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

NPOV?

"Anyone coming to read this would think that it's 100% completely real and legit and scientific even." -DreamGuy

"There has been little widely accepted research verifying palmistry's accuracy as a system of analysis." -The Article

I think that one line from the article negates your entire arguement. (unsigned, but by User:Boringraindrop)

You can't take one weak sounding sentence out of an entire super long article treating it as real and try to claim that this little itty bitty mention -- especially when it's contradicted by other statements claiming scientific basis -- somehow all by itself undoes the incredibly biased rest of the article. DreamGuy 22:56, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I contributed a large portion of the information in this article, and I appreciate the feedback that the scientific/skeptic side of the equation was not adequately represented. I have tried to go back and alter the tone of the article to reflect the fact that the information contained in the article represents the opinions of practitioners and has not been scientifically examined with any corroborative result. I added some links to sites with opposing perspectives, as well.

I do hope that this brings more neutrality to the article. I would appreciate hearing from DreamGuy about whether or not these edits are an improvement.

TariRocks 18:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

• DreamGuy is right... this is far to swung in the direction of this actually being true...

RuSTy1989 22:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Not for us to judge if it's true or not. That's what NPOV means in the first place. Just say "it claims to do this and that" and people can make up their own mind. Freelove1977 (talk) 19:17, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Pictures

Please could somebody who knows about these things put a picture on this page to illustrate the lines? Otherwise from the text descriptions you're just left guessing. 193.129.65.37 06:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Here is an image with Spanish descriptions of the lines: (1) http://magiamania.com/2009/09/24/interpretar-las-rayas-de-la-mano/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.139.207.29 (talk) 15:30, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I'll second that motion, and with the additional request that the names of the lines be given. Quick glances at source material shows a wide variety of names for different lines, even within the Renaissance. Linea vitalis seems to be the Life line, which seems to correspond to modern medicine's nomenclature. The mounds seem to be montes (singular: mons), but they especially differ in specific name according to the author consulted. One man's Mons Veneris may be another's Mons Solis. Still, some general consensus should have been achieved after hundreds of years, and a general guide with the caveat of variance by specific author might be given with a general reference. Perhaps someone skilled in anatomy and physiology might be able to contribute to the article?

I think a lot of the variations referenced above are dictated by the language of the source text. The examples listed are Latin and French translations of the English names listed in the article. Tari 20:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The psychology "research" cited

The research cited looks dubious. If it's not from a peer-reviewed journal, then nobody is checking up on it, and the author can say whatever he feels like. It really should not be counted as credible scientific research.

Unfortunately, peer reviewed journal are (very nearly) never available to the public for free. Either you can go to the library of a university and, from their computers, access the articles via the university's paid account; Or you can try www.scholar.google.com. On Google Scholar, often the abstract will give you the basic results of the experiment, and sometimes you'll even get lucky and find the full text for free.

The reason I looked at the research to begin with was that the following sentence worried me: "Although some interesting correlations have been found, these were usually not considered very significant." Psychologists use the word "significant" in the statistical sense - they say that findings are significant when there is <.05 probability that they are due to chance, given the sample size. The phrase "very significant" uses the word "significant" in the everyday sense, since it does not make sense to say "very" when you are talking about statistical significance. So I'm left wondering -- were the results statistically significant or weren't they?

The 2nd of the 3 paragraphs under the heading "Science and Skeptics" should be taken out until we can get some real, peer-reviewed research on the topic. I don't want to snip it based solely on my opinion, but if someone else agrees, then maybe they should go ahead and take it out.

I have removed all of the unsupported claims in the science and skeptics section. If someone wants to put them back in they need to provide citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.255.116.102 (talk) 02:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

And so we're back to the beginning. There was a messy section of research, science, and criticism, but user "Steven J. Anderson" removed it all in edit 22:45, 22 November 2011‎ , calling it "original research." I would like to debate that claim. The main issue here is that investigating fortune telling is not a major pursuit of peer-reviewed science. What we are left with are papers that investigate whether traits used in palmistry, such as prominence of certain features, creases, digit lengths and ratios, can be used in any manner for predictions of the bearer's health, personality, or proclivities. In that regard, the research cited (removed as OR) was not original research, nor was it irrelevant to the topic. It does need cleanup and editing, however. Can we have any sort of consensus on which papers might best fit this altogether mess of an article? Ruxda (talk) 07:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Bible Misquote

Should we bring to life the bible misquotation of Job 37:7 or Proverbs 3:16?

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/palm.htm

The quotes are clearly taken out of context. Job 37:7 ("sealeth up the hand of every man: that all men may know his work") refers to the lord binding the hands of the people, i.e. stop them from working in the winter to witness the lord's work, while Proverbs 3:16 ("length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour") was a simple colloqialism.

Removed quote from Proverbs. Irrelevant and taken out of context. Original context can be read here: (Proverbs 3) Beginning with the verse : "My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments"
It is ironic that one would quote from this book to promote or in any way be related to Palmistry as the bible condemns such actions (often to the point of death...)
one of many exaples would be (Ezek. 13) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hoaw (talk • contribs) 13:24, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Palm reading

Palm reading is bullcrap. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.218.17.142 (talk • contribs) 16:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

Do you have a citation for that? Tari 01:16, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

like wow this article is a doozy!

Talk about a lack of cites and POV. This reads like much of it was written by palm readers and fortune tellers. "A science in its infancy"? Holy cow! Mr Christopher 20:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for this feedback. I've made it a project to add more sources and cites. Tari 01:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Request re-write of Hand Shape And Character

Could we get a re-write on at least the start of the Hand Shape And Character. It doesn't seem to match the tone of the rest of the article.

(Oh and I added a wikilink to phrenology since it's also a discipline relating to reading character traits from physiological elements)

Elaverick 16:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I re-wrote this section, trying to reduce bias, maintain consistent tone, and make the information more clear. I scrapped most of the original contribution because it seemed easier to start from scratch than to edit; I meant no disrespect by that, and have preserved the original below if people feel there is useful information that could be worked back in - or if the original seems more informative than the rewrite. Tari 01:09, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The one who hears of chirology or palmistry mostly thinks of lines. Therefore it may be very surprising, that it all begins by analysing the shape of the hand. It tells about the constitution and the temperament. Sometimes it is more difficult to interpret it than to read the lines. It requires a lot of experience and hand analysts often tried to find an appropriate system of classification. The breadth and the length of the hand gives us a first and important indication.

The breadth shows us the abundance of the substance. It is a symbol of the concrete, material being on earth and it often has to do with meetings. A broad hand supports our force of creation.
The length connects the bottom with the top, the heaviness with the lightness. It is a symbol of the polarity between matter and spirit, as well as for the development of the consciousness.

If you complement this observation with the astrological elements, you’ll get four categories of hands:

The full, broad and heavy hand stands for the influences of earth and water.
The slender, lightweight hand stands for the air. The similar, less matter pointed fire, expresses himself mainly by a strong thumb, striking contours and sharp lines.

The royal-Saxon doctor Carl Gustav Carus’s well known system of the 19th century is also based on these four elements. As a humanist he was very familiar with the Greek doctrine of temperament. He designed a model of four hand shapes which has been developed further on by the German astropalmist Manfred Magg (Hand And Horoscope). Dr. Carus arranged the variety in the following basic shapes:

• The elementary earth hand awakens the impression of heaviness. This depends above all on the big, thick and hard palm. The fingers are short and strong, the thumb is bulky. The palm shows few clear lines. The life and heart lines are red and strong and the head line is short and straight. The fate line mostly rises up to the middle finger as a deep furrow. That suggests a realistic and material orientated, earthly nature.

• The strong fire hand has striking edges. It makes a muscular tensed impression. The thumb is big and its mount full developed. The strong fingers mostly spread themselves to the top, like spatulas or frog fingers. The picture of the lines are similar to earth hand. Sometimes several deep sharpened lines rise up from the root of the hand to the fingers. This all speaks for a strong will power, that likes movement. The person prefers working independently, because he likes to fix his own tempo.

• The sensitive water hand is to be found mainly with women. Sometimes it is smaller, narrower and more finely built than the prior hands. Its delicate and soft skin reveals much more permeability against the impressions of the surrounding. It reacts very sensitively to this. The main features of the shape are the rounded courses of the lines, specially the head line, that bends down to the mount of Moon.

• The psychic or mental air hand isn’t very broad and big. Beside the slender palm, the fine, long and thin fingers stand out. The knuckles hardly stand out. The fine and numerous lines show a differentiated picture. They mark a life with a lot of events and experiences. This kind of hand points to a refined, nervous organisation and to an aesthetic or spiritual mentality.

On base of this patterns it is easy to determine the dominant element and temperament in your hand (Dominant Planets In Hand And Horoscope).

((preserving the original))Tari 01:09, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It's kind of silly to explain palms like this in a single page because of the different schools. I have a business reading palms and I use a very different Indian method because my dad is from Bangalore. In our school of palmistry the head and heart lines are switched. You might want to make it clearer that this isn't the only way to do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.186.128 (talk) 15:38, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

In that case, why not list the schools there are and include links to separate articles on them where available? Freelove1977 (talk) 19:21, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Amputees, polymelia, and the ambidextrous

What about amputees, especially double hand amputees... how does one perform chiromancy upon them?

What about persons born with more than two hands -- scientifically known to happen (see polymelia), albeit extremely rarely, yet having more than two arms is often referenced in the mythology of certain religions, e.g. Hinduism or Buddhism; how does one do chiromancy upon them?

If the dominant hand represents the current life, and the non-dominant hand the past life or karma, as the article suggests -- what of the ambidextrous?

--SJK (talk) 11:30, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Pythagoras

The very famous philosopher and mystic, Pythagoras, is said to have played a part in the massive spread and interest in palm reading. He is best known as the "Father of Numbers". In his book entitled Physiognomy & Palmistry, he discusses palm reading and places the practices roots back to 497 B.C.

This is ridiculous for a number of reasons. First of all, the sentence is lifted wholesale from the online palmreading(!) page it cites as a reference. At the very least it should be in quotes as not to be plagiarism. The tone is ludicrous: "the very famous philosopher and mystic", there are gramatical errors.

But most of all, the sentence is just plain wrong. Pythagoras didn't write any "books" or iof he did, none survived, everything known about Pythagors is second hand tradition. These non-existant books certainly couldn't be used to "date" the practice of palimstry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by A2800276 (talk • contribs) 10:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

move to palmistry

Palmistry is intuitive and widely used. Google search says 92k results for Chiromancy, 330k results for "palm reading" and 1.06 million for palmistry. So moving article to Palmistry would be appropriate. Agel to alive (talk) 09:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Chiromancy doesn't even there in english dictionary of firefox browser, while palmistry is there. If there is no response in talk page i will list it in "Requested Moves". Thanks. Agel to alive (talk) 07:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I have listed move request in Wikipedia:Requested moves, if once moved by admin, the action can be reverted by normal users. That is the article can be moved back to Chiromancy from Palmistry by normal user. Agel to alive (talk) 08:09, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Lash of Thanatos

Why is there nothing here about the Lash of Thanatos?[1] Lampman (talk) 01:58, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

5,000 YA?!

This article claims that Valmiki wrote a book about palmistry 5,000 years ago. The article on Valmiki, however, says he lived in 400 BCE, which by my math is 2,400 years ago. 5,000 years would have Valmiki writing his book just about the time writing was being invented in Sumeria, about a thousand miles from where Valmiki lived.

The claim about China 3,000 years ago is also dubious... I see it's already been flagged for citation.

I am removing these clearly inflated numbers, though I will leave the supposed progression from Valmiki to China to Greece. (I am skeptical of that progression as well, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt.) 67.59.53.158 Dausuul (talk) 12:48, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

citation needed

The science and criticism section says this...There has been little widely accepted research verifying palmistry's accuracy as a system of character analysis, and so far no conclusive evidence has been provided to support a connection between the lines of the palm and a person's character beyond what could be deduced from analyzing that the person suffered from a chromosomal disorder or belonged to a certain statistical group based on their digit ratio. No conclusive data have yet been found to support the claims made by hand readers with respect to life expectancy or personality type.

This is fine but really needs some sort of citation. When you call something quackery, it may be very true but needs some sort of citation.

Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 16:42, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Linea Vitalis

The Life Line is the most important line on your hand and is always present. It represents vitality and the length of your life. Source: http://www.chacha.com/question/why-are-the-lines-on-your-palm-called-life-lines

Linea [lin′ē•ə] Etymology: L, line A line defining anatomic features, such as the linea vitalis curving across the palm at the base of the thumb. Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 8th edition. 2009, Elsevier. Source: http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/linea

It will be seen that the linea vitalis, or life line, which marks off the ball of the thumb from the rest of the hand, is caused by the extensive range of opposability enjoyed by the thumb. Anthropological notes on the human hand. by Frank Baker, hf. D., Professor of Anatomy, University of Georgetown. Washington, D. C. January 1888, p. 64 Source: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/122471812/PDFSTART

The first meaning of Linea Vitalis is 'line of life'. As in 'to throw someone a life line', to pull you away from somewhere you don't want to be and into a better place. The second meaning is 'path of life'; the road you choose to follow in your life. Your personal voyage. And the line called Linea Vitalis on your hand symbolises this individual journey. Source: http://www.vitaliscoaching.com/services/services.html

GERMAN: Linea vitae, Synonyme: "Lebenslinie" Definition:Die Linea Vitalis ist eine Beugefalte der Hohlhand. Sie fängt zwischen dem Daumen und dem Zeigefinger am radialen Rand der Hohlhand an und läuft entlang des Daumenballens in Richtung der Handwurzel. Source: http://www.flexikon.doccheck.com/Linea_vitalis

DUTCH: linea vitalis, levenslijn Definition in The Netherlands: huidlijn in de handpalm rondom de duimbasis, ontstaan door de oppositiebewegingen van de duim Source: Medical Dictionary, http://www.mijnwoordenboek.nl/thema/ME/NL/EN/L/6

SPANISH: Línea de la Vida (Vitalis) Es la línea más conocida e importante de nuestra mano, pues la relacionamos con nuestra propia vida, con el camino que seguiremos a lo largo de nuestros años, con nuestros problemas y las soluciones que tomemos. Source: http://magiamania.com/2009/09/24/interpretar-las-rayas-de-la-mano/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.139.207.29 (talk) 16:11, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Greek language spelling

The modern Greek word for "hand" is "χέρι". It is of neuter gender therefore should be preceded by the proper article "το". In the ancient Greek language, the same word is "χείρ" which is of feminine gender and should be preceded by the article "η".

Criticism section lacking

I could not help but notice that this article is woefully bereft of criticisms of palmistry. Although I am in support of its practice, this seems unfairly slanted. Perhaps if somebody could find a bit more, maybe on the topic of religious controversy and taboo, it would seem fairer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.112.125.143 (talk) 02:31, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Dire need for balanced POV

The way the article reads now, it would appear as if only a small minority of skeptics object to chiromancy claims. Chiromancy/palmistry is a pseudoscience, at best, and the article desperately needs revisions to make the POV more neutral.

In anticipation of a request for citations supporting my assertion of palmistry's wide perception as pseudoscience, here is the first result from a cursory search through peer-reviewed literature for 'palmistry'. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09500690050166724 --Genya Avocado (talk) 19:09, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV

I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:

1. There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:10, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Questioning the validity of palmistry

What shocks me about this article is the way that this topic (palmistry) has been shamelessly analyzed and presented as though it were an article about something proven and concrete, like medicine, or material science. It is not. The fact that palmistry is of debatable value, that there is absolutely no scientific evidence to support the conclusions of palmistry, or that this is merely a technique based on the two principles of probability and human weakness and gullibility should have been clearly highlighted. Instead the article is an elucidation on things like the mounds and lines of the hand and an elaboration of the techniques and intricacies of palmistry. There is a small section, about 3 lines, of criticism, and appears to have been put in, apologetically, by somebody whose head is firmly screwed on his / her shoulders. The references are all books or resources about palmistry, none questioning the very validity of this unproven technique. All in all, this article is a biased one written by, and further edited by promoters and believers of palmistry. That is not too great a surprise, as most of the resources one can randomly find on the internet talk about palmistry, rather than attack this technique with hard hitting questions. This article is simply an extension of that. Artaxerxes07 (talk) 01:57, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Sooooo.... it needs editors with a neutral POV to add properly referenced criticism of the practice. Feel free - that's how Wikipedia works. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 23:50, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

I came here because I had heard from a credible source that looking at palms is used as a valid medical diagnostic tool - not to predict the future. Apparently some medical conditions show up there. But I have not been able to find it here or in the German section, wouldn't know how it's called. The source has made me curious and I hope somebody will know more about that - and post it here. 121.209.56.202 (talk) 03:04, 22 March 2014 (UTC)