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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Carribeiro (talk | contribs) at 04:11, 30 July 2004. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

I've willing to expand the section on Spiritism, detailing more information as for the actual mechanisms of reincarnation under this particular doctrine. I suggest that Spiritismo (most specifically, Kardecist Spiritism) to get its own section, to help to point out its relationship to Christian doctrines (Kardecist followers have a different interpretation of the Bible, but consider themselves to be Christians). I don't want to step over anyone's toes on it, though.

I may decide, sometime in the future, to move the Buddhist rebirth content to a separate article. Usedbook 16:14 21 May 2003 (UTC)

Is this view of Buddhist "rebirth" as opposed to "reincarnation" really an important point? For example, is this a distinction that the Buddha made, or any of this canonical interpreters, or this is some modern distinction?कुक्कुरोवाच 03:00, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it is definitely important. Reincarnation is not a concept that fits with the Buddhist doctrine of impermanence and anatta. While the difference has apparently gone unnotice by many people through the centuries it is there from the very beggining.
On the other hand, there is certainly a lot of people who believe Buddhism to include a belief in reincarnation. So I must disagree with LordSurya; Buddhism should be mentioned here if only to clarify the matter. Luis Dantas 03:20, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The question isn't, is there a difference between Buddhist and other views on the subject (as obviously there are), but rather, is this differentiation of terms one that reflects an original division, or is this merely a problem of translation? Because if we're only talking about different interpretations of samsara which are later translated as either reincarnation or rebirth, depending on the metaphysical implications, then the existing differentiation is much too strong. My assumption is that, if the Buddhists didn't have to coin a new term in Pali and/or Sanskrit (a linguistic world view in which if a new term could be coined, it would), we shouldn't place so much emphasis on this rebirth/reincarnation distinction.कुक्कुरोवाच
It is partially a translation problem, but semantically it makes no sense to talk about "Buddhist reincarnation". There are indeed different interpretations of Samsara, but the Buddhist version is called reincarnation only by those who lack adequate information. Talking about "Buddhist reincarnation" as a legitimate concept leads to misunderstandings about the metaphysical perspectives. I don't understand your argument - I don't know whether early Buddhists coined new words for the concept of rebirth or not (you seem to imply that they did not), but it is dangerous to assume that reusing existing words is a consequence of similar meanings. From what I gather the early Buddhist Bikkhus used to have a much better grasp of their language and the respective context than we can offer with the often cursory material available in the present times. Luis Dantas
I seem to be involved in two debates about the importance of chosing the right word, and I'm not sure I'm on the same side of the debate in each. (grin) I don't know for sure that they didn't coin new terms in this regard, but I'm not familiar with any such, and I think I would have come across them if they had.
If it was good enough for the Buddha to provide a new understanding of the old idea of samsara, and if the "rebirth"/"reincarnation" dispute is indeed of late vintage, I think we should reflect that in wp by (a) discussing Buddhism on the reincarnation page, and (b) specifying that the rebirth/reincarnation terminological differentiation is new. Obviously it's also of considerable importance (really, the actual issue) to specify how Buddhist concepts of samsara differ from those of other Indian philosophies.कुक्कुरोवाच 04:17, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Since you keep mentioning "samsara", am I correct in guessing that this is the word that you translate as rebirth and/or reincarnation? That would explain a lot of misunderstandings. I tend to think of Samsara as the flow itself, not the process of participating in it. Luis Dantas

(shrug) Samsara refers to the cycle of birth and rebirth, which is inclusive of the process. It's a verbal derivate, from sam√sr; kind of like what "walking" is to "walk," if that makes any sense.
I just did a word search of the PTSD, (God bless the University of Chicago), and it translates two verbs as "be reborn", "ja" and "upa√pad"; ja just means "be born", and "upa-pad" means, in this context, to come to be; neither has an association with re- anything. Which is interesting in itself. Some more digging turns up "vatta", which would correspond to Sanskrit "vrt", of which "pari-vrt" refers to transmigration. (Interesting--they drop the "re", not the other--but that doesn't really help us.) A little more digging turns up "sansr" as a verb (=samsr) and sansara (=samsara) as its derivate....कुक्कुरोवाच 11:04, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Interesting if not exactly conclusive research, thanks. I take it that vatta/vrt is probably the root for avatar. If I understood you this time (and I guess not - this is complex stuff) the usual terms tend to emphasize the idea of birth/coming to be, not the idea of returning (except for avatar, which I understand doesn't really apply to regular human beings). Perhaps the modern concept of reincarnation is a shortcut of sorts, combining aspects of the concepts of atman and of birth in the samsara? Luis Dantas
Not conclusive at all. I was reflexively indulging my inane tendency to reach for a dictionary at the drop of a hat. Sorry if I inundated you. Most of the terms seem not to emphasize repetition, and, importantly, not to emphasize the manner or metaphysical implication of what happens.
But you know what? All this suggests is that reincarnation is the wrong term all around. Not sure where that leaves us, since it's unlikely I can talk Surya into moving the whole shebang to a "rebirth" page. (grins)
Avatara, for what it's worth, is actually from ava-trr, which means to "go down," "descend," etc.; it's usually "go down into" something. But the grammar of the word is, indeed, quite close to these others, though they imply more of a "going around."कुक्कुरोवाच 11:55, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
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