Talk:Camp (style)

Susan Sontag Overemphasized Here?

Going off the 'original research' tag, I'm a little concerned about the focus on the opinion of Susan Sontag, the essayist. While certainly her opinion probably counts as 'notable,' she is also a commentator and well-known social critic with a wide panoply of opinions on all manner of things. I'm not sure that it's either neutral or instructive to continually reference what 'she' believes 'camp' is defined as throughout the article, especially since apparently she only wrote one essay on it to begin with? Surely other sources are available? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.71.19 (talk) 05:25, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

High and Low Camp

There should be a section on the distinction between high and low camp. Low camp is camp that does not know it is campy, like a Lawrence Welk dance number. High camp is a parody of low camp. http://www.glbtq.com/literature/camp,3.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jive Dadson (talk • contribs) 12:35, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes! I was looking for this! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kittenwhip (talk • contribs) 10:02, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Origins & Development section desperately needs correct citations

This section cited ((Samuel R. Delany)) and someone named Altman. Samuel R. Delany is a science-fiction writer who has been quoted as saying that during summer camp he became aware of being more sexually attracted to boys. Altman is seems to be no one in particular besides apparently being the name of a few camps and some camp staff. If anyone knows if any of these claims are valid, that would be swell. --Blacksheepboy (talk) 09:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

It should be pointed out that the French pronominal verb "se camper", from the verb "camper", referred to as a possible origin of the English noun is not, as the article misleads, French slang. The Grand Robert defines "se camper" (which dates from the late seventeenth century) as follows: "to stand in a proud, audacious, and provocative way."

Americana vs. Camp vs. Kitsch

Could we somehow merge all 3 into one coherent article? There isn't much of a difference if you think about it.

Need to represent a more balanced international view

This article is almost entirely limited to US definitions and examples of camp, whereas camp culture is present throughout the Anglophone world, particularly that descended from the British musical hall comedy tradition. The fact that anything non-American is restricted to a small "International Aspects" section demonstrates that the whole article needs a lot more work from an international perspective. I've therefore added a Globalise tag to this page. Gymnophoria (talk) 23:22, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

This is the biggest problem with this article. The fact that some one has suggested merging it with "Americana" says it all. This is an article about "American camp".

THIS ARTICLE IS SH!T

Sorry but this has to be one of the poorest efforts on this site. Its pseudo academic tone belies the fact that most of the article is quite frankly poorly written, based on limited sources, contains original research and dubious examples.

The intro is an affront to one's intelligence "Camp is an aesthetic sensibility wherein something is appealing because of its bad taste and ironic value. The concept is closely related to kitsch, and campy things are described as being "campy" or "cheesy". When the usage appeared, in 1909, it denoted: ostentatious, exaggerated, affected, theatrical, and effeminate behaviour, and, by the middle of the 1970s, the definition comprised: banality, artifice, mediocrity, and ostentation so extreme as to have perversely sophisticated appeal."

Compare the above to what a peer-reviewed dictionary says....

camp   /kæmp/ Show Spelled[kamp] Show IPA

–noun

1. something that provides sophisticated, knowing amusement, as by virtue of its being artlessly mannered or stylized, self-consciously artificial and extravagant, or teasingly ingenuous and sentimental.
2. a person who adopts a teasing, theatrical manner, esp. for the amusement of others.

–verb (used without object)

1. Also, camp it up. to speak or behave in a coquettishly playful or extravagantly theatrical manner.

–adjective

campy: camp Hollywood musicals of the 1940s.

As noted above, delete this abomination and start again. Start again!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.109.63.164 (talk) 12:17, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

As noted before Start again indeed! and take a good look at the german article on Camp: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_%28Kunst%29 - Rides (talk) 20:22, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I just deleted the entire section on "Roadside Culture", since it was all WP:OR, and merely opinion... at that. I see no cites here... where's the scenery ?-) bonze blayk (talk) 00:19, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Gloria Swanson

Camp's source is the deadly seriousness of an older woman bent on seduction (and unaware that her attempts look absurd to everyone else). The perfect example would be someone like Gloria Swanson in Sunset Boulevard. Camp is pretending, ironically, to be Gloria Swanson. That is why it appeals so much to gay men: fear of female seduction and a way of turning the fear into the comic. All the typical props come from the same scenario. Tsinfandel (talk) 00:09, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Where in the name of Kylie's handbag did you get that rubbish from? At best that's third rate cod-psychology and at worst it's actively offensive. I really can't think of a single gay man (and that includes me)'straight acting', camp or totally flaming who has a 'fear of female seduction', it's just plain not true and I don't care if Susan Sontag (whoever she is) says otherwise92.41.103.47 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:54, 20 May 2012 (UTC).

then why do gay men camp it up in drag? Camp is a gay thing about women. What is going on? Tsinfandel (talk) 22:09, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Susan Sontag;1964. "Notes on Camp." In Against Interpretation and Other Essays. New York: Farrar, Straus & Giroux.

• "Camp is the consistently aesthetic experience of the world. It incarnates a victory of "style" over "content," "aesthetics" over "morality," of irony over tragedy.* (Sontag, 1964: 287).
• "In naïve, or pure, Camp, the essential element is seriousness, a seriousness that fails. Of course, not all seriousness that fails can be redeemed as Camp. Only that which has the proper mixture of the exaggerated, the fantastic, the passionate, and the naïve." (Sontag, 1964: 283)
• "The whole point of Camp is to dethrone the serious. Camp is playful, anti-serious. More precisely, Camp involves a new, more complex relation to "the serious." One can be serious about the frivolous, frivolous about the serious." (Sontag, 1964: 288)--Nemissimo (talk) 19:11, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Basics First

Nice attempt, but when writing in English, one should really take proper language usage seriously. Is English a second language? Then get an editor. Attempts to look so "academic" just end up just looking silly when riddled with so many basic grammatical and structural errors. Or... maybe the author was deliberately trying to write in a campy manner, to subtly drive the point home. If so, that aim has been achieved. But, what if this is an example of being campy without meaning to be? Hmmm.... :> Well, whatever the intent, I recommend a competent editor and/or some basic English writing courses. GrannyGM (talk) 02:44, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Possible italian etymology via Polari?

in the glossary section of the Polari article (which really ought to be moved over to wiktionary, but that's another issue), it links the Polari usage of the word to Italian wikt:campare. Given Polari's historical association with the gay community, it seems likely that the word is a borrowing from that dialect into mainstream English, but that's just conjecture on my part. and the italian etymology of the Polari word doesn't seem terribly well-attested either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.225.52.76 (talk) 00:45, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Analysis section IS camp

Read the analysis section. Wouldn't it be a coup to get a large chunk of camp into an article about camp? Can anyone tell if this is meant to be legitimate academic analysis or if this is merely camp itself? And please don't say that there isn't any difference. It reads like something a bored English Lit professor would write and then smugly wait and see how long it stayed in there.

We should replace this section with a section on Chia Pets. --AntigrandiosË^Talk 22:18, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm impressed that Andrew Ross was writing about Macklemore in 1989. ^Talk —Preceding undated comment added 21:00, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Definition of camp varies

The definition of camp in common British English usage (flamboyantly gay) is almost unrelated to the American English usage. Could there be a separate section for this, or even a separate article? 164.11.203.58 (talk) 23:16, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

So where does this stand?

I'm new, or newly returned, to Wikipedia and camp is a research interest of mine. I agree with virtually all of the comments on this page and the Archive--this entry needs a lot of work. But I do not see any concrete planning going on on this talk page. Is that a naive newbie thing to say? How do we decide how to approach this? Do people simply start editing sections piecemeal? As some have said, this entry could perhaps do with restarting from scratch.Mhbroder (talk) 00:55, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

"Analysis"?

Analysis seems like a bad summation title for this article's last section I'm not sure what would be better but maybe someone else can think of a better phrase? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kittenwhip (talk • contribs) 10:00, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

What this section is would be pretty decent as crticism (in the sense of "critical essay", not "complaint"), but what it is not is an encyclopedic look at camp. If published critics were being quoted as having said these things it would be different, but this is this particular edit/author's viewpoint, not substansiated fact or documented analysis having previously appeared elsewhere, and as such would seem to violate Wikipedia criteria for inclusion in an article. (Not only that, but I don't find Judy Garland herself to be particularly camp; it's her many female impersenator portrayers who are generally such.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.252.79.50 (talk) 20:37, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Unworthy of a supposed encyclopaedia

This article is a mockery. I don't believe that the word 'camp' in American English has anything like the level of usage as it does in British English. I have used the word online many times only to receive question marks from Americans. As it is explained in this article it seems to have a meaning that is vague to non-existent. Where are the proper references to Polari? It refers to British usage as "decades" old, which simply flies in the face of Polari's history over several hundred years (i.e. it was most likely being used when the USA didn't even exist). What this article seems to be about is basically a fragment of the meaning of camp that already exists in the UK. It either needs proper development to show the origins or needs to be removed and replaced by another article.Marcvanderloo (talk) 21:17, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

ABC After School Specials were camp?

As many have already noted, this article is atrocious. Its authors are clearly confused about what exactly camp is. The "ABC Afterschool Specials" were certainly NOT camp in any sense. Dated and preachy perhaps, but not camp. However amusing or 'cheesy' they may seem today, they were intended to be taken seriously at the time; something which is unintentionally amusing because it hasn't aged well is not camp (if it were, just about every serious drama made in the 50s could be called 'camp'). Also, the 80s night time soaps "Dallas" and "Dynasty" weren't camp in any sense of the term, 80s excess notwithstanding. In other places the article seems to conflate camp with drag and 'cheesiness'. This article is in need of serious revision.CannotFindAName (talk) 02:29, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

The entire "Contemporary culture" section is in dire need. It's the longest section of the article yet contains no references whatsoever. It seems to be made up entirely of personal opinions and speculation. At various points the author confuses camp with kitsch, cult, low-budget production, irony, and mere datedness.

The Batman series, the Monty Python sketch referred to, the episode of The Simpsons, the movie Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, and at least some John Waters films all have a place in an article about camp, given proper citations. I would argue that nothing else in this section is a clear-cut example of camp, and most of the "examples" are a very long way from being camp.

The few references to British television are, to my knowledge, factually incorrect. The series Eurotrash was not particularly controversial for a late-night Channel 4 programme, and would not have "fallen foul of OFCOM" if handled in a different style. The Protect and Survive films weren't denied broadcast "for reasons of national security"; they were public information films intended to be broadcast only in the event of impending nuclear war -- and covering a much longer period than the 72 hours stated, since they begin with information on buying supplies and reinforcing the home. The comment that Protect and Survive is "chilling to watch" is a purely personal view and has no place in an encyclopedia. Hery-Tep Medu (talk) 02:19, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Mentos television commercials

"Mentos television commercials during the 1990s developed a cult following due to their camp "Eurotrash" humour."

Should be removed because

One, has no source. Two, most of the Mentos commercials were actually made in America, by Americans and with American actors. Three, in Europe the commercials were actually made fun of because of their "cheesy American humour". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.131.62.156 (talk) 10:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC)