Jump to content

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heaven Sent Gaming

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Wikipedia:Articles for deletion

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by DunDunDunt (talk | contribs) at 06:36, 1 July 2014. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Heaven Sent Gaming

Heaven Sent Gaming (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Non-notable business website. Almost no hits on a Google search. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 06:13, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Keep", not a business though, it's a website with enough sources to warrant a stub. 97.123.55.117 (talk) 06:28, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Keep", this subject is listed on several databases. And, I've been doing library research, and the tertiary sources will be added once research is complete; though they're not required for the article to exist. More time is needed for this article to become more than a stub. DunDunDunt (talk) 06:39, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Strong Keep" just found an AMAZING search option on Google to find more information on this topic. Google Search DunDunDunt (talk) 12:17, 26 June 2014 (UTC) — Note to closing admin: DunDunDunt (talk • contribs) is the creator of the page that is the subject of this XfD. [reply]
"Keep", I wouldn't think that I, or anything Isabel and I are connected with, would be within the scope of Wikipedia. But, DunDunDunt seems interested in doing research on my Heaven Sent Gaming project. And, according to MediaWiki Commons they say that entry into authority records, in reference to Isabel and I, "makes both of you relevant and therefore photos of you guys are in scope of the project". I don't think I'm notable or interesting; but, apparently others are arguing otherwise. Smile Lee (talk) 07:24, 26 June 2014 (UTC) — Note to closing admin: Smile Lee (talk • contribs) appears to have a close connection with the subject of the article being discussed. [reply]
I have added an image to this article, adding images is all I will be doing to edit this or any article related to me or Heaven Sent Gaming. I'm not interested in myself as an encyclopedic subject. Smile Lee (talk) 07:42, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Strong Keep" I change my vote, after reading what Mr. Lucero said I will be supporting him and Heaven Sent Gaming "as an encyclopedic subject". I was only moderately interested in this. Mostly I like to edit skateboarding articles on the 'pedia. Ever thought of skating Mario? Maybe at least do an HSGplays episode of Tony Hawk's Pro Skater!!! 97.123.55.117 (talk) 07:48, 26 June 2014 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
You've already !voted once already. What is this, vote early and vote often?  Philg88 ♦talk 05:48, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I've corrected my double vote, and I'll assume good faith that 97.123.55.117 had a another accidental double vote. I think I've corrected it. Wikipedia's AFD is Consensus, that "is not based on a tally of votes, but on reasonable, logical, policy-based arguments." I wouldn't think to double vote. Back to consensus, in my prior post I refuted the "Almost no hits on a Google search" argument. DunDunDunt (talk) 06:16, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Mexico-related deletion discussions.  Philg88 ♦talk 07:44, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:15, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Websites-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:15, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I'm not a new user, I have more than a few edits, I don't care much about this subject. My current project is Al Hurricane and the discography of that musician. Also, we can't know the entire contribution history of the anonymous user, since they cycle through IPs. Smile Lee (talk) 23:00, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Per nom. Notability failure. I'm not seeing the required significant coverage in reliable independent sources.  Philg88 ♦talk 06:40, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment, the Collins College newsletter, an accredited American higher learning institution, and verifiable with a cache. Also, The Albuquerque Tribune tidbit is unfortunately unverifiable via any online cache I can find. Never-the-less, there are several other reliable independent sources. "significant coverage" is followed properly as well; the article is already a few paragraphs long and only relies on three primary sources thus far. This subject's "significant coverage" is also covered via each of it's individual published titles, and those related to the subject; meaning the article has plenty of coverage to allow for growth. NOTE HOWEVER I don't think that their individual creations or creators warrant individual articles yet, until coverage is large enough on each individual subject, this article SHOULD be used as comprehensive on the subject. DunDunDunt (talk) 07:17, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Philg88, NinjaRobotPirate, and Smile Lee: thank you for helping to make this article more reliable and allowing me to explain its subject's notability better. DunDunDunt (talk) 07:17, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, I'd like to note that this article was requested YEARS ago, Wikipedia:Requested_articles/Arts_and_entertainment/Internet_and_tech_culture. 97.123.7.170 (talk) 08:47, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep, just edited the article, I would recommend a full blown "History" section to be composed into a sequential set of events in a narrative fashion. The "Works" section will be a nice resource, but that "History" section I mentioned would be a pretty beastly project. After a few searches around the 'net there are more than enough notable sources to work with. The annoying part is that this subject's fields and publishing history are such a pain in the ass to reference in a single Google Search (YOU LITERALLY HAVE TO LOOK UP EVERY SINGLE TOPIC SEPARATELY! JUST TO FIND SOME NOTABLE SOURCES!!!). This article wouldn't just be a joy to have on Wikipedia, which I believe it would, it would also help out anyone trying to find out some god-damned information about these subjects! No wonder this was requested so long ago. 97.123.7.170 (talk) 09:56, 27 June 2014 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
Being placed on the "requested article" list has no influence on notability. Kolbasz (talk) 11:28, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Notability not established. WP:NCORP requires significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources. The Albuquerque Tribune is the only reliable, independent secondary source in the article, but the citation is only a trivial mention. Kolbasz (talk) 11:11, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Somehow didn't see the AfD notice and started to write my own, so will just paste it here: Fails WP:CORPDEPTH. It appears all of the many sources here either published by the organization, social networking sites like LinkedIn, or not about Heaven Sent Gaming but about one of the comics/bands they publish. The WP article seems to focus on the individual titles they happened to publish and seems largely promotional (especially given the sourcing). --— Rhododendrites talk |  16:13, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment to the closer - Please note the abundance of SPAs, similar voting style, enthusiasm, and existing connection to the article among seemingly all of the Keep votes. --— Rhododendrites talk |  16:15, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • To be more specific, all of the keep votes so far: DunDunDunt (page creator), Smile Lee (seems to be an owner/founder of the subject of the article), 97.123.55 (SPA), 97.123.7.170 (SPA). Note the shared enthusiasm, with exclamation points and whatnot, and in particular the shared range of the two IPs. --— Rhododendrites talk |  16:19, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, I noticed that, too, but it's probably best to assume good faith and chalk it up to shared enthusiasm by a small cadre of supporters. I nominated another article created by the same user, and it has attracted none of the enthusiastic repeat votes of this one. If these were truly sock puppets, I think they would have also posted on the other article's AfD. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:05, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • Indeed, thanks for following up on that. I'll just clarify that I don't think everybody saying keep is a sock -- just that it consists of the page creator, page subject, and two IPs which, in addition to being from the same IP range, share a similar style of comment, having both changed keep to strong keep, using lots of exclamation marks, and so on. --— Rhododendrites talk |  18:36, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • Also note that, though Mario is the subject of the page, he does not seem to have any intention of keeping up this article. So it's not like he seems to have a dog in the fight, and he has not re-voted. I got a bit pissed off last night about finding sources on this subject, that was what the exclamation marks were about, they were not about my excitement for the article. I would also like to reiterate that I feel as though that this topic has the notability when in combination with it's related subjects, which are as of now, not entirely covered in this article. 97.123.7.170 (talk) 21:26, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very Strong Keep: it passes WP:NCORP "Determining notability does not necessarily depend on things such as fame, importance, or popularity", those anonymous IPs are in and around New Mexico; meaning the subject is regional, but discussed. Also, Google search turns up plenty on this "organization (commercial or otherwise), or any of its products and services". The college note and Albuquerque Tribune mention is "Independent of the subject", "Reliable", and non-trivial as they come from different regions (Arizona and New Mexico). Finally the IMDB, AllMusic, and Spotify, and other database listings adds verifiability on the subject(s). The article is a bit short though, needs more information. As Bruddah IZ would say, "I've seen it all, done it all, known it all." This subject is different, but it's worthy of notice.BeachParadise (talk) 23:15, 27 June 2014 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
@Rhododendrites:, my account is not a single purpose account, I have had another account listed on my user page, and have edited anonymously prior. I focus on Hawaii-related articles, but once in a while like to edit Southwestern US articles too. Please remove that tag you are mis-categorizing me. I'll assume that you mean well, but I also want to insure that you are not attempting to discredit my fair assessment on the article. BeachParadise (talk) 00:59, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@BeachParadise: I see. But the other account you mention also has only 2 edits and was created in the last couple days. Although FYI the "spa" tag I added doesn't mean your opinion doesn't count. As you can probably understand, though, it's highly unusual for a very new user to know about AfD and participate in an AfD, so when someone with a new account does so, and has few other edits, it's almost always (indeed not necessarily always) because motivated by something other than the truest application of Wikipedia standards.
More on point regarding your keep rationale, NCORP does not require fame, importance, or popularity as those are all too subjective. Notability is Wikipedia's quasi-objective alternative that effectively defers that judgment. Notability in that way requires "significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject." So Heaven Sent Gaming must be the subject (or a subject) of multiple high quality sources that have no relationship to Heaven Sent Gaming. If those sources are shown to exist, I -- and I imagine others -- would be happy to change my opinion on the matter as I have absolutely no prior knowledge of this subject, nor do I have strong feelings about it. But as of now, those sources do not seem to exist. See WP:RS for an explanation of reliable sourcing and WP:N for a general overview of notability. --— Rhododendrites talk |  01:18, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Rhododendrites:I was speaking on Kolbasz statement on the WP:NCORP, which this article meets the rationale for. It also covers, the WP:N rationale, through Wikipedia:NCORP Heaven Sent Gaming has "attracted the notice of reliable sources unrelated to the organization or product" from multiple sources. It's in the article, and more than a few of the references meet WP:RS with "peer-reviewed sources", most (if not all) primary sources are backed by secondary or tertiary sources, and the vast majority of primary sources are clearly "written or published by the subject of the biographical material", meaning they are acceptable. Mahalo braddah. Final thing, "Very Strong" is a native Hawaiian reference, which is why my "Keep" is the way it is. BeachParadise (talk) 02:00, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@NinjaRobotPirate: thanks for those amazing "Helpful links" on your page. Heaven Sent Gaming is now cleaned of most, if not all, non-reliable citations and non-verifiable resources; according to Film/Resources, Video games/Sources, Comics/References, Albums/Sources, Novels/Resources. It is now a much more reliably sourced article. Though, the "biographical material" still has primary sources due to that being acceptable, though they usually have accompanying secondary and tertiary source. :D DunDunDunt (talk) 07:41, 28 June 2014 (UTC) There is also another primary source, but it is accompanied with a tertiary source per Comics/References. DunDunDunt (talk) 07:45, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what a reliable source is, as I just clicked literally every link in the reflist and did not come across even one (although to be fair there are a couple I don't have access to, which may very well prove me wrong). Very few are even articles/substantive writing beyond a tracklisting, a youtube channel, a brief mention of one of the acts its publishes, a user-submitted content site that only serves to verify something exists, and so on. If anybody can submit content (i.e. any social media site), it's not a reliable source. If it's not about the subject of the article, it's not "significant coverage." If it's written by or connected to someone involved with the subject, it's not independent of the subject. --— Rhododendrites talk |  18:45, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
None of them are social media sites, and 75% of the references are good resources according to the rules set forth as good references according to their respective Wikipedia project pages; you can't broad stroke notability, this clearly meets Project Comics, Project Novels, etc requirements. This article is about a notable subject with some notable published materials. The only things that remain as "written by or connected to someone involved" are a few autobiographical references. Even if your assessment is correct, which I don't.believe it is. Your assertions mean that the article simply needs more time, and this article clearly informs people in a non-biased way about the subject(s). 97.123.7.170 (talk) 22:40, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, rather than further clarify WP:RS and WP:N, let's just use examples.
This is a list of all references on the page
These don't help notability as primary sources: official site (primary), official soundcloud, blog post on official site, another official site
These don't help notability as passing mentions, in addition to some being unreliable: name in a long list, us trademark office link, comicbookdb, last.fm tracklisting, a cofounder nominated for a shorty award (one of the better refs, but still just a passing mention)
These don't help notability as they don't even mention the subject of the article at all (and many are unreliable). Even if these established notability for one or more of the individual acts/titles published by the subject (which they don't), that wouldn't confer notability upon the publisher: computer science department newsletter, musicbrainz (wiki) bio for one of the founders, musicbrainz bio for the other founder, mtv tracklisting, another musicbrainz, allmusic tracklisting, radio station page that just links to a band's youtube video, a band asks fans to vote for it to play warped tour, cmt page with a couple images and a song to download, raw youtube channel statistics, band's youtube channel itself, another youtube video of a band, another of the band's music videos, more youtube channel statistics
There's also a very curious unlinked citation of an article in the Albuquerque Tribune with a title that returns no ghits other than this wikipedia article and is dated after the closure of the newspaper
So that's all of the sources except for the last five, which all come from one site, webfictionguide.com, which for some reason the public wifi I'm on thinks is pornography. I'm not familiar with webfictionguide.com, but it's not likely porn and probably worth looking at (but it appears on those five to establish notability). Ok, I'm admittedly taking up too much space in this discussion so I'll shut up now. --— Rhododendrites talk |  00:20, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The computer science department newsletter mentions Heaven Sent Gaming, Musicbrainz is curated and is used as an Authority Control on biographical articles. This article is also a partial biography on Mario J. Lucero and Isabel Ruiz; they are Heaven Sent Gaming. Also MTV and CMT, both subsidiaries of Viacom, are relevant in this context to give credence and referential material to their published bands on non-primary sources. aywv isn't a band, they are a gaming news publication who's content has been used by other news agencies, ; those particular references are used in regard to particular statements; statistics for views by date, being networked by Square-Enix, and about a specific translation of a video. And each of these statements have been properly refuted multiple times. Final note, the Tribune's date is corrected, it's been corrected before, but this article's size has grown exponentially since it was nominated, could've happened at any point on accident, during that week they were discussing the happenings in and around Albuquerque and the important things to keep track off when the paper's gone. DunDunDunt (talk) 01:42, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Web Fiction Guide is another self-published/user-generated source. From Web Fiction Guide | About:

Web Fiction Guide is a community-run listing of online fiction. We list anything that is original and story-oriented (we don’t list fanfic or erotica), and that is available to read for free online.

Kolbasz (talk) 00:35, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Web fiction guide is not "self-published/user-generated" it is curated by editors, you can't just list a novel after a page or two it needs to be worth listing. And, even then, more listings are non-reviewed by editors; and non-mentioned on the front page. Both of which happened for Mario's fictional novels (which are both published and part of Heaven Sent Gaming). I don't know why it's coming up as porn, it's a webnovel site. Also, on the page Kolbasz mentioned:

Our goal is to help you find stuff you want to read.

That's clearly stated on Web Fiction Guide. The reference being used in the reaction portion of the article in reference to editor reviews. I have however added better citation to those reviews, in particular a cache of it being featured on the front page.
DunDunDunt (talk) 01:42, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Comic Book DB is used as a reference on comic book articles. Though I'm not sure if it needs an article on Wikipedia, and I don't care much to find out. Comic Book DB is a fine resource, a tertiary source according to the Comic Wikipedia project. CMT and MTV also have bios written about the bands and both mention Heaven Sent Gaming as being key factors, the CMT bio even clearly states that HSG is Mario and Isabel.
    Though now I'm questioning why you've singled out this DunDunDunt user, this is why I don't create an account on here, I'm well-versed on the inner workings of Wikipedia, but this kind of bullshit occurs. What's worse is that this obviously well-referenced notable article is being called into question even after the AfD nominator is given ample example of the article's room to grow to encompass a notable subject.
NinjaRobotPirate is a brilliant user, and has a no-nonsense approach to Wikipedia, and I applaud him for that. I have no interest in this subject, except as an encyclopedic one, and I implore him to look at the excellent sourcing and notability guidelines being followed to a T on this article. This is a "start" rated article that deserves more time to incorporate more of the sources available. Considering none of their novels are listed here, there's only of their 7 comics listed here, and none of their video series are listed here. This article clearly has NO interest in selling their crap, I have taken a very non-enthusiastic look at their work, and they are clearly discussed in multiple places and listed on the appropriate databases. 97.123.7.170 (talk) 04:16, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • One Final Comment: I'd like to state that new media subjects like this are difficult to reference. Ie; Toby Turner, The Yogscast, Lasse Gjertsen, all of which are incredibly notable examples of Internet Culture articles that make HEAVY use of primary references, which again is fine for autobiographical content as long as it's verifiable and not making a ridiculous claim. This article needs time, the main subject and it's published titles have more than enough independently published sources to warrant a growing article. I will no longer be posting in this AfD, I'm confident that this article meets the requirements to remain on Wikipedia. I'm also confidant that I've logically refuted the remove votes. DunDunDunt (talk) 12:38, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment to closer, User:Musamies, whom voted a delete on my other article Comic Book DB just edited the Wikidata entry on Heaven Sent Gaming and removed the link to this article. DunDunDunt (talk) 06:35, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Heaven_Sent_Gaming&oldid=615118457"