Jump to content

Talk:Palestine (region)

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 189.14.8.13 (talk) at 08:48, 9 July 2014 (→Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2014: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Outline of knowledge coverage

Please Include these Two Maps of Palaeftina 400 AD and Palestine 2007 CE

DigDeep4Truth (talk) 11:39, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Why is David Duke a reliable source on this subject? -- AnonMoos (talk) 00:33, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
He is not the source of the map. I did a Google image search. This was the largest image I found. ~ I don't agree with David Duke, you are only trying to incite flame bait. See the picture for its honest value, and move on with your character assignations by associate. DigDeep4Truth (talk) 12:47, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Since you seem to be very quick to accuse others of having KKK ties, maybe you should have exercised greater circumspection in using David Duke as a source... AnonMoos (talk) 08:49, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Leaving aside the extraordinarily funny 'character assignations by associate' (which I presume is a google translation of some foreign text that referred to 'character assassinations by association') in 'incite flame bait', is that three consecutive verbs, or is 'flame' an adjective governing 'bait', ort do 'flame and bait' go together, as the object of 'incite'?Nishidani (talk) 15:21, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

These two maps are already on wiki:

You can see links to which articles these maps are included in at the bottom of the page links. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:48, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • The First Map is labeled wrong. It is not a map of Israel Byzantine. It is a map of "Palestine Byzantine". Not the same map. Though the time frame is within 100 years, and more detailed, it lacks the authenticity of an old map. But it needs to be relabeled "Palestine Byzantine".
  • The second map should be in this Palestine article. If there is one single map of Palestine, it should be an accurate one. That is not just a map of the "West Bank and Gaza". It shows the North, the South, and the East bank settled too! That is a Map of "All of Palestine 2007" and must be added for this article to be an accurate reflection of what is Palestine. DigDeep4Truth (talk) 12:47, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Holy Land or Promised Land (Formerly Palestine), Recently Depicted and Published by Nicolaes Visscher 1659 CE --> http://www.wdl.org/en/item/210/#q=Palestine&time_periods=-8000-499&qla=en `` DigDeep4Truth (talk) 13:42, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Here ABOVE is another very good map, this United Nations map shines the light on a European Goal to replace Palestine with a Holy Land or a Promised Land of the artist and Europe's own Social Religious design. Created in Amsterdam, one should note that Freemasonry started in Germany around 1500 CE. And be mindful both Harry S. Truman who signed 1948 Israel into existence and his Grandpa were Freemason. F.A.M Blue Lodge (Zionists), York Rite (Catholic), Scottish Rite (KKK Zionist Movement for Jews in Jerusalem). All three have one thing in common, Religious titles & Knight Degrees as part of membership, keeping the unfinished Crusades fresh in each members mind. Everyone who joins Freemasonry is reminded of the European unfinished Goal, akin to how Bush Jr groundlessly acted out against Iraq all because he was reminded of how senior Bush had failed in his goal to cripple Iraq from ever being able to defend Palestine, and for Freemasonry in general the invasion of Palestine and conversion to Judeo-Christian control.

I'm also looking at another United Nations hosted map, this time from Lithuania along the coast of Germany where they carved Palestine into 12 Tribes. Written in Hebrew. Eliyyahu ben Shelomo Zalman (1720-1797) better known as the Vilna Gaon or Elijah of Vilna, Although he traveled some in Eastern Europe, he never visited the Holy Land. However, more than 500 of his disciples moved to Palestine at his urging; this immigration is considered the beginning of the modern Jewish settlement of the Land of Israel. http://www.wdl.org/en/item/2662/#q=Palestine&page=2&qla=en

Do the Palestinians have a Flag of Jerusalem?

Above is the question. Any answers? Background is that presently the only flag shown for Jerusalemn on the Jersualem article is an Israeli flag. I asked why and some one asked me, well, you find us a Palestinian one. I don't know the answer. Best, Frenchmalawi (talk) 15:28, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Propose merging Definitions of Palestine into this article

Most of the article Definitions of Palestine is redundant as it is covered adequately here. The useful piece is explaining the connection between the region of Palestine and the other modern uses of the terms.

I suggest we cover that in an illustrated section at the end of this article entitled simply "Modern politics", where we explain that Palestinian people and Palestinian nationalism relate to the whole region, but that since 1988 the term State of Palestine (and other related political organizations) refers only to the West Bank and Gaza.

Oncenawhile (talk) 23:32, 4 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Chesdovi. For almost a millenium, Palestine was largely Christian, and this fact disappears all over wiki.

That was a very poor and confusing edit you made. ‘At the time of the conquest, the majority of the population were Jews and Samaritans’.

  • You cite Gil p.3.
  • Gil in that quote hazards an assumption explicitly adding ‘we do not know’, and ‘we may assume with some certainty’. I.e. he is expressing his personal view, a view ungrounded in evidence. You restate this as a fact. It was not, in his own presentation, a fact.
  • Moshe Gil’s book came out in its original Hebrew edition in 1983. Gideon Avni’s book surveys and draws conclusions from the extensive archaeological work done in the area over the last three decades, i.e. since Gil made that arbitrary assumption, and overturns many of the earlier assumptions Gil’s work displays. 2014 trumps 1983 for the state of the art.
  • There is not a shadow of a doubt that Avni expressly states that Christians were the majority at the time of the Islamic conquest.

  • ‘The Muslims, on the other hand, saw Palestine as a monolithic Islamic domain. The presence of a Christian population was mentioned only briefly, and the fact that Christians remained a majority in Palestine long after the Arab conquest was ignored.’ p.6

  • ‘my major argument is that archaeology provides a reliable picture of the Byzantine-Islamic transition. It was evidently a much slower and ore graual transformation, involving regional variability and affecting more locales, population sectors, and settlement configurations, than previously assumed. The cultural and religious shift from Christianity to Islam, one of the most significant transformations in human history, needs to be considered from the longue durée perspective. It took a different shape in large urban areas, medium-sized towns, agricultural hinterlands, and nomadic settlements on the fringe of the desert. This process of change, from a Christian majority to a multicultural dynamic society, will be explored in the course of the book.’p.9

  • ‘

    the predominance of the Christian population was maintained throughout the early Islamic period. p.131

  • ‘Despite the language change from Greek to Arabic, the majority clung to Christianity until Crusader times. Islamization gained real momentum only after the conquest by Saladin in 1187 and the expulsion of the Franks.’ P.336

  • ‘In what way do the archaological findings contribute to our understanding of the changes in religious affiliation during this time, the creeping Islamization and the relations between religious communities? As we saw in Chapter 5, the transition from a predominantly Christian society, as manifested in government and religious institutions, was a gradual one. Through the period, Christians were the majority population group in both the cities and villages. The penetration of Islam was slow, and mainly expressed in the formation of government elites p.351

These articles concern all aspects of history, and all confessions. The three monotheisms have equally profound historical attachments to that land, and articles must reflect this diversity.Nishidani (talk) 16:40, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Seems fairly compelling to me. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:20, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
One thing that might have influenced Gil's judgement here is that after the Persians conquered and sacked Jerusalem in 614, 30 years earlier, they are said to have destroyed the city's Christian majority - those who survived were handed over to the new Jewish messianic groups who took up residence after long being forbidden access (and in one account conducted a 'convert' or die event at Mamilla). Exactly as the Jewish elite had been deported from Jerusalem to Babylonia a millenium earlier, so the Christian elite was deported to Iran. A good example of history repeating itself. Nishidani (talk) 17:52, 30 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Notable populations (a continuity of the byzantine era) of indigenous holy land Christians were noted later in the Crusader Era as well. Lazyfoxx (talk) 17:56, 30 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

History section - a summary of History of Palestine

Just a reminder that we have a History of Palestine article, which is a good repository for relevant detail, particularly around the middle ages. I think it is important that we keep the history section in this article as a summary, without too much detail. Oncenawhile (talk) 19:12, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That we need be informed that both Jews and Christians prayed for Ahmad ibn Tulun when he lay dying, but are to desist from mentioning the killing of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian soldiers (who happened to be Jews) during the Roman onslaught is curious. (Oh, and let's include the 700,000 Arabs who were driven out in 1948, but not a peep about the 700,000 Jews who were driven out/killed in 148.) Chesdovi (talk) 20:37, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with your general point - that we need to ensure balance. Let's debate all these points in detail. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:18, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agree generally, but Chesdovi's note re 985 villages (while leaving out 50 fortresses) was not excessive detail. It is illustrative for the context. The problem with it is that the original source (RS, but not by a specialist says in 'Judea proper', whereas the figure, probably inflated as almost all ancient figures are, would refer to all of Palestine and parts of Transjordan (in Judea proper there were, from memory, just 200 Jewish villages at the time). You cannot cite Dio Cassius, Josephus or any ancient writer for facts, as opposed to citing them via secondary sources. Chesdovi, this is the second time today you made the simple error of presenting an opinion, or a theory (albeit based on a primary source) as a fact. The academic consensus is, all the same, that the figure suggests the depth of the devastation visited upon Jewish communities outside the Galilee (which didn't participate), and this is a central element in the history of Palestine.Nishidani (talk) 19:19, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Historicity of Jesus

From the article: The three-year Ministry of Jesus, culminating in his crucifixion, is estimated to have occurred from 28–30 CE, although the historicity of Jesus is disputed by a minority of scholars.

The citation used to justify this brief string of bald assertions is opinion not fact, and I think it's pretty unfortunate that mythology has been inserted into the history section of this article. Firstly what do they mean by scholars, secondly which scholars, is there a poll or anything other than hearsay to support this claim? I guess at the end of the day it's one thing to to reference mythology as it relates to history, but to pretend it's anything but mythology is just sad.209.202.24.156 (talk) 01:08, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing exceptional in the fact that most ancient historiography mythicizes its figures, this is as true even of Alexander the Great as it is of many of the foundational figures of the early Biblical chronicles, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, King David, Saul, Solomon etc. To exceptionalize Jesus therefore as not 'factual' is usually to enter into partisan, usually interfaith, polemics. The strong consensus (it may well be biased) is that some historical figure lies behind the Jesus of the Gospels, that he preached for some years and then, like many messianic figures of that period and area, was crucified together with two bandits. In a general article, the passage you quote is a fair summary of the consensus, which does not establish 'facts' but forms the basis for the narrative we have here, which describes what scholars generally think, with a few exceptions, of Jesus.Nishidani (talk) 09:07, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2014

189.14.8.13 (talk) 08:44, 9 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Israel tem o póder5 bélico de já ter decidido sobre essas questões. Mas por que é necessária a continuidade da destruição? Qual é o valor da vida dco ser humano para essas questões? O ódio nãda constrói. Será que os martires já não foram suficientes? Será que as partes envolvidas só enxergam o que perdem e não o que prejudicam? A nação árabe têm uma história de união. Somente o Satã é que deve estar fomentando essa desunião! Judeus e Palestinos. O terror não está na origem, mas na forma de se relacio9nar e Mem seus objetivos! Qual o motivo para se manter esse estado contínuo de terror e guerra entre seus povos?} Qual é o objetivo de ncada uma de suas nações? Será que seus líderes são crianças iguais aquelas que são vítimas inocentes de seus devaneios? Será que Israel não está derramando sangue mjudeu de mPalestinos? E os Palestinos igualmente?

VALOR PAZ = 11_4_12_15_5_16_4_25=15+20+25+1221=1281 ISRAEL PALESTINA= 9554512+16+4+12+5+5+7+14+4=9554512+67=9554579 9/554579 + m1281 = 685860 FHEHF (A O) SISTENA=59575144=40 SISTEMA=59575134=39 40+39=79 > 16=16 > p 81+21=102

22+9+14+15+5+5 = 70 3+15+12+5+14+9 = 58 27+15=42 9+14+20=43 20+14+9=43 42+58=100 43+70=113 Good Night Brothers !

Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2014

189.14.8.13 (talk) 08:44, 9 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Israel tem o póder5 bélico de já ter decidido sobre essas questões. Mas por que é necessária a continuidade da destruição? Qual é o valor da vida dco ser humano para essas questões? O ódio nãda constrói. Será que os martires já não foram suficientes? Será que as partes envolvidas só enxergam o que perdem e não o que prejudicam? A nação árabe têm uma história de união. Somente o Satã é que deve estar fomentando essa desunião! Judeus e Palestinos. O terror não está na origem, mas na forma de se relacio9nar e Mem seus objetivos! Qual o motivo para se manter esse estado contínuo de terror e guerra entre seus povos?} Qual é o objetivo de ncada uma de suas nações? Será que seus líderes são crianças iguais aquelas que são vítimas inocentes de seus devaneios? Será que Israel não está derramando sangue mjudeu de mPalestinos? E os Palestinos igualmente?

VALOR PAZ = 11_4_12_15_5_16_4_25=15+20+25+1221=1281 ISRAEL PALESTINA= 9554512+16+4+12+5+5+7+14+4=9554512+67=9554579 9/554579 + m1281 = 685860 FHEHF (A O) SISTENA=59575144=40 SISTEMA=59575134=39 40+39=79 > 16=16 > p 81+21=102

22+9+14+15+5+5 = 70 3+15+12+5+14+9 = 58 27+15=42 9+14+20=43 20+14+9=43 42+58=100 43+70=113 Good Night Brothers !

Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2014

189.14.8.13 (talk) 08:48, 9 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Israel tem o póder5 bélico de já ter decidido sobre essas questões. Mas por que é necessária a continuidade da destruição? Qual é o valor da vida dco ser humano para essas questões? O ódio nãda constrói. Será que os martires já não foram suficientes? Será que as partes envolvidas só enxergam o que perdem e não o que prejudicam? A nação árabe têm uma história de união. Somente o Satã é que deve estar fomentando essa desunião! Judeus e Palestinos. O terror não está na origem, mas na forma de se relacio9nar e Mem seus objetivos! Qual o motivo para se manter esse estado contínuo de terror e guerra entre seus povos?} Qual é o objetivo de ncada uma de suas nações? Será que seus líderes são crianças iguais aquelas que são vítimas inocentes de seus devaneios? Será que Israel não está derramando sangue mjudeu de mPalestinos? E os Palestinos igualmente?

VALOR PAZ = 11_4_12_15_5_16_4_25=15+20+25+1221=1281 ISRAEL PALESTINA= 9554512+16+4+12+5+5+7+14+4=9554512+67=9554579 9/554579 + m1281 = 685860 FHEHF (A O) SISTENA=59575144=40 SISTEMA=59575134=39 40+39=79 > 16=16 > p 81+21=102

22+9+14+15+5+5 = 70 3+15+12+5+14+9 = 58 27+15=42 9+14+20=43 20+14+9=43 42+58=100 43+70=113 Good Night Brothers !

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Palestine_(region)&oldid=616198352"