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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Aaron charles (talk | contribs) at 23:03, 2 July 2006 (→[[:Category:White people]]). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

< June 25 June 27 >

June 26

Category:Realism painters to Category:Realist painters

Category:Realism artists to Category:Realist artists

The movement was called realism, but the individuals are usually referred to as realists. Chicheley 22:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Category:Theories of history to Category:Historiography

"Theories of history" describes itself as "This is for works that don't just document history but provide theories for why things happened the way they did and possibly what that means for the future," which describes Historiography. I recommend merging as a redundant category. Katherine Tredwell 17:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I am a historian; I did not make this proposal lightly or out of ignorance. Historiography is, quite simply, the writing of history. If you don't believe me (and you shouldn't--everything on Wikipedia should be verified) check the Oxford English Dictionary or the Encyclopaedia Britannica, both of which give that definition essentially word for word. It covers a number of concepts, including theories of history and philosophy of history, as well as the history of historiography (what user JeffW seems to be thinking of as historiography). Perhaps "theories of history" would make a good subcategory of "historiography." Katherine Tredwell 18:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The quote that you put on the talk page, "From Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, "Historiography": "2. the bodies of techniques, theories, and principles of historical research and presentation; methods of historical scholarship," disproves your point. It mentions "...theories...of historical research and presentation" which is not the same thing as a theory of history. --JeffW 21:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • My point in quoting Webster's was to show that historiography is more than just "the study of Historians and their works" as you claimed. I used it because it was ready to hand, and I'm sorry if it has confused the issue. I've also recommended you consult the Encylopaedia Britannica. The Micropaedia has an entry for "Historiography" which defines it, as I said above, as "the writing of history." For a full explanation it sends the reader to the entry on "History" as a field of study, which covers a lot of things including what I understand by "theories of history." There are also plenty of monographs on the historiography of specific times and subjects, even general works like Ernst Breisach's Historiography, which include theories of history in their subject matter. For that matter, here's an example of a historian online clearly including theory of history.[1] I hope you will explain at greater length what distinguishes your term "theories of history" from "historiography." Discussing some of the articles grouped under one or both categories would help me understand what you are getting at. Katherine Tredwell 23:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, for theories of history I was thinking of things like Toynbee's ideas of how civilizations rise and fall or Strauss and Howe's theory of how there are four types of generations that interact to create great crises every four generations, and the like. If that's historiography then so be it, I just didn't see that definition in anything I was given. I'm withdrawing my vote to let the real historians decide. --JeffW 01:34, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:White people

Skincolour or race, however that is defined, doesn't follow from being of a certain ethnicity. I discovered this today when it was added to Category:Swedish-Americans, a category which happens to include Quincy Jones III. With these hyphenated -American categories being as inclusive as they are, I assume there must be other examples. Delete this abomination, please! Tupsharru 16:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Blue eyed soul to Category:Blue-eyed soul artists

The current name is vague. Arual 15:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Former government officials of Hong Kong to Category:Government officials of Hong Kong

It isn't standard practice to divide people into living and dead or past and present, and really I don't think it is worth the effort, so let's let precedents for doing so accrue. Chicheley 15:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Category:La Toya Jackson to Category:La Toya Jackson albums

I created this category earlier. It's supposed to be for La Toya Jackson's albums, but i forgot to add "albums" at the end. --Musicpvm 07:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Television series on DVD

Not a defining characteristic of theses shows. Plus, with the large number of series being released on DVD these days, this category is likely to become unmaintainably huge. - EurekaLott 05:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Oyaji

Nearly everything that can be wrong with this category is wrong with it. The subject of Oyaji is not mentioned once in a single article in this cat (Oyaji aside). The category has no criteria to clarify its use. There are no sources to back up its use in any article. And, even if all those issues were resolved, I don't see how this could be anything but an arbitrary arrangement of essentially unrelated articles. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Rhythm and blues albums to Category:R&B albums

Categories should be merged to be consistent with the parent category Category:R&B and its other subcategories. --Musicpvm 02:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Nobel Peace Prize nominees

One can not properly categorize Nobel Prize nominees after 1951. According to our own Nobel Peace Prize article, "many individuals have become known as 'Nobel Peace Prize Nominees', but this designation has no official standing." Nominations are kept secret by the committee. Nominations prior to 1951 have been published; for what it's worth, the list includes Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:40, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Cult leaders

This is a POV magnet and given the disputed nature of the term cult, impossible to maintain NPOV. Note also that for these reasons there is not an article on Cult leader in Wikipedia. Some editors are claiming that if there is a notable citation that refers to a person as a cult leader, that is enough for categorizing that person as such. This is in contradiction to WP:NPOV as it relates to undue weight. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete as nominator. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. It is easy to maintain NPOV; just require that all entries be supported by citations. We follow this standard for other categories and should follow it for this one. A removal of this category is a victory for cultists everywhere, which would truly be POV. Full disclosure: Jossi is a member of the Prem Rawat organization, which has been called a cult. Draw your own conclusions. Al 04:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)Al 03:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
How many citations, Al? Is one enough? ten? twenty? By whom? An anti-cult advocate? An anti-cult organization? A newspaper article? This does not work, and it is simply a POV magnet. And remember that WP is not a place for advocaycy against or for cults. See WP:NOT ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
On citation of a notable person. Al 04:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just think of the consequences of such interpretation of policy! POV pushing galore! Find one cite and you can categorize people anyway your POV wants. Sorry, but no. We have a policy of WP:NPOV in Wikipedia, in which it is clearly stated that a minority POV cannot be asserted as anything but that. Your interpretation contradicts a non-negotiable content policy. 05:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
You're mistaken. It fits in with due weight, recognizing that a category like this must reflect significant minority views. Al 23:05, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. There are people on the list that are cult leaders beyond a shadow of a doubt. Likewise, I agree with Al that citations are what matters in determining who belongs on it. I think it's enough to have more than one citation to show that it is not just one person's view that it is a cult. -- LGagnon 03:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
By your logic, if there is a citation that denies the allegation of being a cult leader, we should remove it from this category? Right? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those sources can still be presented in the article with accurate descriptions, whereas the category is total, it is not "Alleged cult leaders", it is not "Accused cult leaders", it is not "Possible cult leaders". —Centrx→talk • 04:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Categories are intended to help people navigate, not rule with finality. All members are alleged, not convicted. Al 04:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That may be WP Policy (or Guideline) but would the average reader that didn't edit know that? Crazynas 04:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there does exist a category page, so we could make a note there. In fact, I just did so. Go look, if you like. Al 04:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename to Category:Alleged cult leaders; if the criteria for inclusion remain as they are, the category name should reflect that. It's not okay to just say, "X is a cult leader," in an article, we have to couch it in terms of "Y says X is a cult leader" to avoid original research and POV-edits. If it's not acceptable to say it in an article, it would be counter-productive to do so in a category, wouldn't it? "Alleged" gets the point across without being quite so POV. Luna Santin 05:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Same problem, IMO. The solution may to keep, with a criteria based on wide consensus of sources, such as in the case of Jim Jones. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove The title looks only a little bit different in tone than a tile such as "slutty women" or "crazy people". It is inherently POV on its face and no amount of sources will change that. Furthermore it is vastly too broad with a vague meaning. Any major religion that centers on the teachings of a person is a "cult" by definition and so any leaders in that religion (this would include Popes and the Dalai Lama) would be "Cult Leaders". Personality cults are relatively frequent when we span the whole time of recorded history and many rules would be cult leaders, including Pharoahs, Ceasars, and of course modern dictators such as Stalin, Hiler, Mao and Pol Pot. Within Catholicism, some of the Saints have an organization (an order) and so they and the current and all past leaders of this order would be "Cult Leaders". And, though I personally do not feel this way, many people get a sense of negative value on the word "cult". I quote: "My working definition of a cult is a group that you don't like, and I say that somewhat facetiously, but at the same time, in fact, that is my working definition of a cult. It is a group that somebody doesn't like. It is a derogatory term, and I have never seen it redeemed from the derogatory connotations that it picked up in the sociological literature in the 1930s." -- J. Gordon Melton. I simply do not think it can be anything other than Non-neutral. I think that the guidelines in Wikipedia NPOV would work. They specifically use the example of someone egregiously evil (like hitler) and instruct that we must not say he is evil but simply let his works speak for themselves. THat same philosophy would reject "Cult Leader".--Anon 64 10:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename to Category:Alleged cult leaders; this is the only possible way to maintain NPOV. Otherwise it should be deleted.Xemoi 16:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. Jim Jones wasn't widely recognized as a cult leader until after his cult was all dead. That doesn't mean that he WASN'T one. There were people who said he was a cult leader prior to the kool-aid incident, and there were people who denied this claim, but there was no "consensus" until after the fact. a few good reputable sources should be enough to merit inclusion.--Courtland Nerval 17:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Some people are (or were) cult leaders. No one would argue with the inclusion of Jim Jones or Charles Manson. The category serves a legitimate navigational purpose. If category:cults makes sense, then so does this category. -Will Beback 20:39, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Well, then, I guess Mr. Moon isn't a cult leader? And Fred Phelps? I suppose it's become pov to state simple facts, which is, these people lead cults. Why have a cult leader article when you can cover it in the cult article? In a related story, L. Ron Hubbard is my hero! (that was a joke) Эйрон Кинни (t) 10:33, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete. What the 'keepers' are failing to recognise is that the label cult itself is, in its popular usage, at once both (a) pejorative (and to many even offensive); and (b) highly subjective, there being no commonly accepted definition of the term. This is a recipe for controversy and abuse. These difficulties are highlighted in Wikipedia's own article on the term 'cult', and in fact the term 'cult' is identified as a word to avoid in Wikipedia's style guide. And whilst I would accept that there is probably a small handful of individuals that most would accept as meeting the "lowest common denominator" definition (e.g. Jim Jones), statements such as that from the editor immediately above implying it is a 'fact' that the Unification Church and Scientology are cults illustrate the sort of divisiveness and controversy the use of such categories inevitably generate. I suggest these be included in the Category "Religious Leaders" or some other less controversial heading; in the case of such figures as Charles Manson, with reference to their crimes. Really Spooky 13:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Categories exist mainly for navigation, and this seems to me a reasonable topic to navigate. I recognize problems with these "cult" categories and list, but a category can at least be argued at the article itself, where an unjustified inclusion would presumably be contested by people who know the subject. Renaming to say "alleged" could be construed as weakening inclusion criteria, but if that were avoided I could support a rename. Gimmetrow 14:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong rename: Category: Alleged cult leaders. Category:Cult leaders is inherently POV, where alleged is indisputable if the allegation can be cited. David L Rattigan 19:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. POV and subjective category. Useful to POV pushers. Oppose renaming it to "alleged cult leaders" which would be equally subjective and POV with a lower bar for inclusion, solving nothing. Just delete it. KleenupKrew 20:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Rename. The crux of the issue is as stated in the beginning that there is no definition of the phrase "Cult leader" in the wikipedia. If anyone could create such a page (and I would not be qualified to do so) which would spell out exactly under what circumstances a person would be defined as a cult leader as per wikipedia, I would have no objections whatever. But that would probably be very hard to do. I would propose instead something like "Personality cult leaders" (still has the same problem, but to a lesser degree), or "Leaders of controversial religious organizations," or "Leaders of allegedly abusive religious organizations," or whatever, with the specific criteria for who would and would not be included spelled out at the top of the page. Badbilltucker 21:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Rename: The phrase "Cult leaders" IS a POV. The term "cult" undeniably has negative connotations associated with it, will invariably be used to push POVs and will offend people. I strongly suggest renaming this category: Category:Religious Sect Leaders. The following quote reflects the negative mainstream sentiment towards the term "cult" (ironically which can even be seen in this discussion thread):
"Cults are claimed to be deceitful. They are claimed to be harmful to their members. They are claimed to be undermining American values. Cults are claimed to be just about every bad thing in the book these days, and with the pervasive images of Manson and Jim Jones hanging over us, any group that is called a cult is immediately associated with those two people." J. Gordon Melton
SSS108 talk-email 22:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ahh, the proverbial straw man appears. Where in the above discussion has anyone said that there is “no such thing” as a cult? The issue being raised here is that the term is at once pejorative and subjective. Before suggesting that Wikipedia is infiltrated by members of cults that are terrified of being exposed for what they really are, perhaps said editor would first like to provide what he understands to be the accepted definition of cult, and then explain what agenda he is pushing by insisting upon the use of a label that has been identified as a word to avoid on Wikipedia?
Using Anataeus Feldspar’s own logic, I would like to nominate the new category "Evil People":
"There are people. There are evil people. Enough said. Anyone who wishes to argue those two premises can go argue it with the bodies in the mass graves dug by the regime of Augusto Pinochet, the thousands of civilians who were incinerated with atomic bombs by Harry S. Truman, and Isaac, who was nearly stabbed to death by his father Abraham on the orders of the God of all Jews, Christians and Muslims… I'm sick of the POV-pushing by certain editors with agendas who, rather than risk having to think about the possibility that their favourite personage might be evil, would rather push on all of Wikipedia, against a mountain of grisly evidence, the absurd notion that there is no such thing". Really Spooky 11:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your are assuming bad faith on the part "certain editors"... For your information, this discussion started because of some editors wanted to add Ayn Rand to the list of cult leaders based on a couple of sources that describe Objectivism as a cult, and he fact that people are using this as a way of character assassination by guilt by association. No one is arguing that there are not people out there about which there is wide consensus about them being leaders of destructive groups or "cults". The discussion is centered about the issues surrounding the current lack of criterion for inclusion in this category, and the violation of policy by allowing the inclusion of people in this list based on a minority viewpoint and in contravention of NPOV as it pertains to undue weight. You can follow the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight.2C_NPOV_and_categorization_of_people ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:38, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Antaeus, your near-personal-attack, insulting, ever repeating rants start making me angry and tired. Did you at any time consider, that opponents to your POV just want write an encyclopedia, as factual and as NPOV as can be reasonably achieved? You are always arguing with the "easy cases" (which, using a scientific approach, aren't crystal clear, either), but quick, pray, tell: Who of Kimpa Vita, Martin Luther, Francis of Assisi, Jan Hus, Simon Kimbangu are cult leaders? And why? BTW, as it seems you like to put fellow editors into bins, of any groups mentioned on the (in)famous List of groups referred to as cults, I'm only a member of Wikipedia (as far as you can be a member of Wikipedia). --Pjacobi 09:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - This is a term which is nearly always in dispute - such terms should not be used in categories or lists (although they should be mentioned in articles). This has nothing to do with being pro- or anti- cult; merely applying a feature of Wikipedia - that categories should be uncontroversial. JesseW, the juggling janitor 21:56, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Note that there is a related discussion regarding the cults category at WP:CFD#Category:Cults.--Antonrojo 22:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, but exclude controversial cases. There are clear instances of cults, past and present. Looking up a list of them is of encyclopedic value. Like most categories, there are borderline cases, but because of the POV danger here, there should be a strong burden of proof for inclusion. In particular, if there are voices outside of the organization that argue it isn't a cult, I think that's enough to warrent exclusion. Fireplace 01:03, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or Rename. In its common usage, "Cult" just means "Bad Religion". Hard to imagine how we can unilaterally proclaim any existing religion to be a cult under NPOV. --Alecmconroy 06:09, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete Come on, no one is ever going to be able to agree on whether or not many "religions" are a cult. No one is saying "There's no such thing as a cult," but if we keep this category, we'll have endless debates about whether or not this or that group is a cult. Catholics, Mormons, Ayn Rand... It will never end, and it will always reflect a POV. Sourced allegations that an organization is a cult should be addressed in the article, but using a category lends too much weight to what will always be a subjective term. It's like the soon-to-be-created category "slutty women." Who sets the bar for what is "slutty?" I'm not as strongly opposed to something like "Controversial Religious Organizations," but I can't think of a single religious organization that everyone can agree is non-controversial. DejahThoris 10:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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