Talk:White pride/Archive 2

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Opening Statement is Biased/Loaded

The opening statement, second sentence, has a dubiously worded cited statement "It is often closely aligned with white supremacy and white separatism.[2]". Anyone reading this source will be able to tell you that this is merely an opinion from a single book, and surely not a valid source for such a definitive statement, especially not so early on in the article. Use of words like "often", "closely", and "aligned" is vague at best. The opening statement is supposed to simply describe the subject in a neutral and plain fashion, not completely colour it and set a tone. Perhaps there are connections with certain groups, however I feel such matters should be covered in a subsection with a title like "controversies" or "criticisms". Suggestions on reworkings, changes, etc. anyone? ▫Bad▫harlick♠ 00:06, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

It's fine as is. White Pride=racist, antisemitic lunatics. We're done here. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 00:07, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Systemic bias

I found this article from the Countering Systemic Bias WikiProject Open Tasks List and I'm not sure what the "systemic bias" involved is supposed to be. There's an obvious (and extensive) dispute regarding what counts as an NPOV take on "white pride" but that isn't the same thing. Elliotreed (talk) 01:58, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you insane

How can pride be linked with supremacy?!! Thats the most ridiculous thing i have heard. Being proud of being white does not mean you think 'white is right'. Can people not be proud of who they are without being branded 'Racist' I respect all cultures and races' I dont see why white people cant be proud???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by EditorM93 (talk • contribs) 18:06, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

White pride is racist

Racism says: "Racism is the belief that people of different races differ in value". Proclaiming white pride ("pride for being born white") in a time where caucasians are in a priviligied position seems racist (perhaps unintentionally so) to me. Sunnan 14:28, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

by this logic, white-non-pride is also racist

Any form of ethnic/national pride is racism. Furthermore, differerent races do differ in value, to say otherwise is naive. Avsn 00:49, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

"Different races do differ in value"? What the hell does that mean? That you believe that your race, presumably, is more valuable than, say, mine? --67.71.122.58 00:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

A) sign your comments with a real name. B) 'differ' does not mean greater or lesser. 'Differ' is to say not all races are alike. It is only your assuming that I say more than I do. In other words, don't put words in my mouth. Avsn 02:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Don't play a semantic game, because based on the evidence peppered throughout this page, you'll lose it. You didn't just say that races differed. You said that races "differ in value". Difference in value suggests a hierarchy. Difference in value is like saying you're a dollar, I'm fifty cents, and Bob is two dollars. There's an obvious implicit hierarchy. And if you're applying it to race it makes you racist, and therefore unqualified to evaluate whether this article is NPOV or not.-Maggie --67.71.122.58 02:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• Semantic I'll grant. That it invalidates the arguement, I'll not grant. "Value" does not automatically infer hierarchy. Consider this:

Process A and Process B both accomplish the same END. A and B go about reaching END with different methods. A and B have an equal number of advantages and disadvantages. However, A's method is useful to Industry X and B's method is useful to Industry Y. Thus A and B differ in value, without an implication of hierarchy. The same can be applied in the real world. Asians are known to be good in math and sciences to a degree greater that the other races around them. Blacks are better in some sports than other races. Get the point. I don't say that there are hard and fast rules to this difference, just that it exists. Avsn 17:06, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• I come bearing a few tips (you lucky boy you) for the next time you're eager to argue with someone. The first is, don't use words ("infer", in this case) that you don't understand. The second is, don't use words ("consider", in this case) that you can't spell. Thirdly, don't rely upon a long-discredited pseudoscience (racial eugenics, for example) to support your arguments, even if you intend them to be absurd. The supposed correlation of certain skills and 'race' is socially created (generally, African-Americans have a higher level of poverty than others, and thus have substantially less access to education in "math and sciences") and also quite spurious, based on the fact that there is more genetic variation _within_ 'races' than between them. I mean, come on. Your ideas were out of date in the days of Darwin.

• Yet another unsigned comment, but I will still respond. (unsigned it a peeve of mine, but that sort of thing is bound to happen in a place like Wikipedia.) My bad spelling aside, yes I mean imply not infer. I don't rely on 'pseudoscience' of any sort. I rely on the example of reality. If you don't believe in differences between races, I give you a better example. Why is it that some segements of humanity are prone to certain diseases while the rest of humanity is unaffected? (Sickle cell in Blacks or Tay-Sachs in Ashkenazi Jews.) You appear to object to the word race even existing. Typical of the Egalitarian. ***PESONAL OPINION HERE*** Equality is a fine Ideal, not a reality. Avsn 02:03, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Environment. Environment. Environment. Also, certain genes being retained because of certain groups leaning towards reproductive partners within their own immediate social community. It has nothing to do with 'races', which from a genetic perspective are non-existent. The term may be of use in cultural studies and cultural history, but to deploy them 'scientifically' is not merely bunkum, not merely inherently racist, but plain moronic. Ask a geneticist. A real one. --65.95.150.107 01:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Buts not ENVIROMENT likes you say theres proof every were you look that the races are different. 1st we look and are built different from each other.There are all sorts of stats as well that suggest that white act different than that. They all also prove that Blacks are more prone to being racists themselves than whites:

There were 6,804 hate crimes in the U.S in 2005 according to the FBI. 4116.42 of them had white offenders. while 1353.99 had black people as offenders. Now you may say that the white comitte majority of the hate crimes in the U.S but if u look at the population of blacks and whites you can notice that theres 5.3 times more whites than black. 36,121,000 Blacks and 194,874,000 whites.with saying that it means 0.037% of the black population commited a hate crime wereas only 0.002% of the white population did. This means that the blacks have five times less people but were 18.5 times more likely to commit a hate crime than a white.

This information Came from the FBI and U.S Government website so is accurate and credible

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/black/ppl-186/tab1.txt

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2005/offenders.htm

Now with this information in front of us How can you say the races are the same for one and for two how can anyone call white pride racist when its clearly shows that black pride is racist not WHITE PRIDE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.166.216.71 (talk) 19:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

• If you dislike this article, I suggest this: write a counter article. "White Pride: as viewed by society at large" perhaps. Let this article be "White Pride: Explained by those with White Pride". Avsn 00:03, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• Don't be stupid. That's not how Wikipedia works. Articles - not the encyclopedia as a whole - have to be balanced. They have to be grounded in fact. An article about White Pride can certainly describe what the White Pride community looks like - which is to say, an awful lot like a KKK meeting - but it certainly doesn't need to take the perspective that white pride is a good thing, or that taking 'pride' in a position of socioeconomic dominance is in any way honorable or natural or scientifically ordained. You might wonder why I've resorted repeatedly to ad hominem attacks. It's because you're a racist, or, more accurately, that certain of your opinions are racist. Therefore you are in no position to write objectively about an issue such as this. -Maggie--65.95.150.107 01:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• Firstly, no I am not a racist. I don't mind you attacking my argument, but refain from attacking me. My pride in my heritage is justified, and if you believe being white negates my right to pride in my heritage, I'll say you are wrong. I, individually am not "in a position of socioeconomic dominanace". If you believe this article is unbalanced, balance it out. I refuse to be PC. If a Black man can say "Black Pride!" and have it be a statement of ethnic pride, I can just as well be proud of my "whiteness". Futhermore, just because a black man cannot qualify his blackness (IE Zulu, Xhosha, Hottentot, whatever.) doesn't mean I have to qualify my whiteness by saying "English, French, etc." "White" covers it fine thank you. As for objectivity, this is a controversial article, there is no way to satify your obviously inflated requirements in that area, I won't try. Avsn 02:03, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• You did exactly that I thought you'd do, which is to say, responded to my personal attacks rather than my scientific and sociological arguments. The obvious reason is that you can't defend yourself on those bases. Although admittedly the personal attacks were more fun to type, I find it worrying that it appears to be you who have been left in charge of this abandoned outpost. The article cannot be saved. It needs to be cleared out and completely rewritten, and I don't have the time. But are you really naive enough to believe that "black pride" is something other than mere solidarity in the face of persistent oppression? Just like gay pride. And because white people have never been systematically oppressed, the very idea is a contradiction, if not necessarily an offensive one. - Maggie --65.95.150.107 02:23, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• Well apparently citing Sickle Cell and Tay-Sachs is unscientific. Guess I'm the Unscientist. As for "scientific and sociological arguments": I sure didn't see any, maybe giving an opinion is "scientific and sociological." I'll willing agree to disagree. When "Maggie" has a genuine arguement I'll gladly return to this subject. There are some people who just don't know how to argue properly.Avsn 02:53, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• I have to groan, but I'll repeat myself, slowly if need be. Sickle-cell anaemia and Tay-Sachs disease are not 'scientific' proof of racial predispositions - they are, on the contrary, reflections of the fact that members of a given social group (let's say, Ashkenazi Jews) tend to find their mates and produce children within that group, thereby proliferating certain alleles, because their partners are that much more likely to be carriers of the mate gene to their own. The child thus ends up with the disease. This doesn't actually prove the existence of 'races' - it merely reflects the social reality of certain groups being reproductively insular. In fact, it's patently absurd to say that they in any way are indicators of 'racial' predispositions - because by that logic, a union between an African-American and an Ashkenazi Jew would be that much more statistically likely to produce a child with both Tay-Sachs and Sickle-Cell, when in point of fact that would be almost impossible (indeed, genetically absurd), because those diseases require both parents being carriers of a given gene, and having both parents sharing a gene of this sort in turn requires a certain degree of socio-sexual insularity - which obviously has nothing whatsoever to do with race, but is rather a social phenomenon. Just because your examples are diseases doesn't mean they're scientific. I can suggest that a left-handed Scot is more likely to have a red beard than (say) a right-handed Chinese person, but it would be foolish to suggest that it has anything to do with the hand with which either man signs his name. -Maggie--65.95.150.107 03:38, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

This discussion has become emotionally charged. Thank god it's being discussed here instead of the article. Th intro should make it clear that white pride in itself has nothing to do with the view of one race having value over another. That it is a cultural celebration that is completely unrelated to the white power/white supremacy and white separatist movements (At least two very unrelated movements). It should demonstrate that the term has become confused due to white power/supremecists "borrowing" on the theme of white pride to lend credibilty to their supremacist agenda and that it is misunderstood by other political ideologists as being synonymous with white supremacy.

I feel the 14 words should only be included in a separate section that gives examples of the use/allegation of misuse of the term "white pride" by white supremacist persons and organisations. Consider the source of the 14 words; David Lane was a defendant on trial for an alleged white supremacist hate crime.

I also feel that any discussion on the supposed value or meaning of race, beyond the way of life, belief system of different subcultures (Saxon/Celtic/Nordic or whatever) should be moved to the white supremacy section.

The problem is that supremacists wholeheartedly believe that their use of the term "white pride" describes their beliefs exclusively and that many people lump white pride in with white supremacy. This is quite a hot potato.

I vote that we stay on the focus of white pride as a cultural movement; introduce, but keep separate the political meanings/non meanings and refer as necessary (and as fairly as we can) to the white supremacy section.

I'm also surprized that this hasn't been vandalized more.

Lets try to come up with an outline of where to place what ideas and let that lead us.

Example:

I. simple definition of white pride (no supremacist stuff yet)

     A. different cultures involved
          1. Celt for example

          2. Nordic/Viking...
     B. Mythology/Religons commonly held by the various people 

2. Controversy concerning use of white pride (the viewpoints)

    A.   Pro Supremacy white pride view
    B.   Non-supremacist white pride view
    C.   those who believe they are one in the same.

If we got a good outline going some of these problems could solve themselves.

I disagree entirely. The term "white pride" was coined by the very racist organizations you decry for having misappropriated the term. Your history is backwards. White Pride has always been reactionary, and it has always been pernicious. Non-racists who are nonetheless proponents of 'white pride' are simply ignorant of the history of the term. -Maggie --70.50.79.26 01:11, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Yours would seem to resemble the "C" viewpont (C. those who believe they are one in the same). Are you saying that white people were not proud of their culture long before the term or this issue ever existed?

The idea of cultural pride has likely been present since the stone age. It's tribal.

Assuming that what you say is correct; that the term "white pride" was coined solely by racist organizations. That matters very little. The viewpoint's inclusion in this article is still valid because it describes a popular way in which the term "white pride" is used today.

Though I'd be interested to know how you know that the term was always used SOLELY by supremacist groups. Have you traveled in white pride or white supremacist circles?

I think it's important that all viewpoints are treated equally (and neutrally). Likewise, that the term may or may not have been misappropriated or whether or not non-supremacist/pro white pride proponents are ignorant of the term's history represent only one belief about the term's origin.

If we can't pinpoint exactly who used it, when or in what context, then we can do little more than describe the positions within the debate of it's origin.

Even if you're 100% correct; that it IS popularly used in a non-supremacist context is still very relevant.

But this article is largely not about people of white European heritage feeling proud of themselves because they're special too and la-dee-da. If it were that simple there would be nothing to discuss, and indeed that aspect of the issue is dealt with amply in the first sentence of the article.

What this article is really about is the standard, capitalized usage of the term White Pride, and that is not in dispute. At the moment I have neither the resources nor the patience to annotate the first published usage of the term, but I can say with certainty that it does not predate David Duke. And I am not convinced that it is popularly used outside of racist/white nationalist/white supremacist organizations. If you are, provide an example. - Maggie --70.50.79.26 03:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Clearly it is popularly used or there would be no debate from anyone else on this page about it's use. I think you are confusing the more general term of White Pride with the slogan, "White Pride, World Wide", a slogan widely used in racist literature (displayed around a Celtic cross, and so somewhat offensive to pagans). There is even debate on whether that organization (it's called Stormfront) is a racist one - an entirely different can of worms with it's own dedicated wiki page. I'm not even gonna fight you on that one.

My point is that if people have another use for it, we are duty bound to tell about that as well whether or not we find it palatable. This is the reason that dictionaries frequently have more than one definition. Incidently, I checked and "White Pride World Wide" already has it's own page. David Duke (Or as some say, Malcolm X's doppleganger) has his own page as well. I'll concede that it makes sense to include his speil as well as David Lane's 14 words so long as we fairly represent opposing views. Otherwise, The Racism article covers it all so why have a separate page at all. There is a duty here to be balanced.

- Iasonis 

Hurray I have a name!

Extended content

How can anyone call white pride racist, when you have the blacks screaming black power and the natives yelling native pride? Are whites the only ones that can be racist? How come blacks can call me a HONKEY and not be racist but i cant call him a N#@$#r. 198.166.216.71 06:08, 1 October 2007 (UTC) If an African-American called you any racist name, he would be racist. Whites aren't the only group that are capable of racism. Its been my personal experience that if you are in an arguement with someone and the first thing out of either of your mouths is a racial slur, then both people have some issues to address That is just absurd. It is also not the discussion at hand. The concept of White Pride was a reaction to Black Pride. Its first use in mainstream society was by supremacist groups. It has not been "corrupted" by supremacist groups. Its a little like argung that the word "kill" was given a bad name by murderers. There IS an arguemnt to be made that the term Black Power has always had its own negative and exclusionary connotations since the beginning. The interesting thing is that no one seems to have a big problem if someone displays Irish Pride or Italian Pride or English Pride. This could be addressed in another article. --Art8641 15:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC) Art8641, I agree with nearly everything you write, but white power does predate black power. White australia policy. I don't use wikipedia much, but I'm sure you can look it up —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.165.5.123 (talk) 12:16, 8 July 2010 (UTC) The White Australia policy was not referred to as such when it was instituted. And, of course, the white Australia policy was absurdly racist. However, that policy wasn't about promoting the interests of white people - it was about denying non-whites access to Australia. In other words, it wasn't centered around being white (which white power is) it was centered around non-whites being "other." The main reason I see for the idea of white pride being racist revolves around the idea of "white blindness," in which the extreme dominance of white people is unacknowledged by the general population. Similar to the idea of the white Australia policy, people are often seen as white or non-white, with the non-white category having a significantly othered aspect to it. White people have been culturally dominant for the last few hundred years, which has led to the oppression of people who aren't white, and don't conform to white values. Henceforth, the (insert race here) power movements. The term white power (I'm not an expert, this is just what it seems to me) was likely a knee jerk reaction by white supremacists (among others) to the idea that other races gaining power is a threat to white cultural dominance. The reason that no-one is upset about Irish Power or Italian Pride is that Ireland (or Italy) represents an ethnicity, whereas whiteness represents a racial attitude which has historically been, and still is, culturally dominant to the point of excluding, marginalizing, and dis-empowering anyone who is not white. Being proud of being white is not socially acceptable, because being white means being a part of the group who enslaved, slaughtered, stole land from, and/ or abused every single other race on the planet. Whites are modern history's bad guys. - Hashtag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.102.158.19 (talk) 02:41, 3 October 2011 (UTC) Hashtag, your opinion is blatantly biased and stinks of anti-White prejudice. "being white means being a part of the group who enslaved, slaughtered, stole land from, and/or abused every single other race on the planet. Whites are modern history's bad guys" This statement is completely absurd and ignores global history. You left out the fact that every race has enslaved, slaughtered, and oppressed other races, including Whites. You single out Whites as the "bad guys" despite the fact that Asians, Arabs, etc. are historically responsible for more conquests, violence and oppression than Whites ever have been. You also appear to collectively blame White people as a whole, even though the vast majority of White people have nothing to do with slavery or oppression, and have often been victimized just as badly as non-Whites (for example, the Irish were racially oppressed and abused for hundreds of years), not to mention the disturbing levels of anti-White racism that is seen in many parts of the world, both historically and today. In addition, there's also the innumerable ways that Whites have helped humanity with our contributions to science, technology, philosophy, medicine and culture. As a proud White person, I find your anti-White rhetoric to be insulting and completely inappropriate. ICE Bullet (talk) 22:52, 20 May 2013 (UTC) Article talk pages are for discussing improvements to their respective articles, not for general discussion of the topic. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:07, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Non-Racist Expressions of White Pride

One thing that I think needs to be examined and discussed is that in the US and Canada, most Whites know their ethnic heritage, at least in part, and can choose to express pride in that. For example, it's not hard to guess where Patrick O'Brian's, Michael Jacobson's, Victoria Cheese's, Nik Milosevic's, or Sven Gunderson's ancestors came from. There are ethnic heritage festivals in many major cities. While there are Pan-Asian student groups on college campuses, in the real world, Asians self-segregate by country-of-origin, so that southern California has Chinatown, Koreatown, and Little Toyko in Los Angeles, and Little Saigon in nearby Orange County. Few people of Vietnamese descent live in Little Tokyo.

However, because most Blacks are descended from slaves who were forced to give up their ancestral languages, beliefs, names, and culture, they have no connection to a particular region of Africa. (Not to mention the fact that many of the nations that exist today didn't exist at that time. If a Black person could even know that his ancestors came from what is now Nigeria, would he proclaim affinity for Nigeria, or for the Fulani Empire, or to the Nok or Ifo or Benin or other peoples?) This inability to trace their lineage necessitates the "Black Power" movement. Their skin color was the one thing that could not be taken away from them, and it serves to unite them in the West. 75.146.121.137 (talk) 19:07, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

American centric

"White pride" exists outside the Americas, the criticism listed here doesn't apply to universal "white pride". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.25.147 (talk) 12:59, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute

This article, in its entirety is biased. This article is in violation of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nothaz (talk • contribs) 23:25, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Agree 100% that this article is written from an American perspective, one that would probably be described in the US as "progressive". While my personal views are largely aligned with the article, I have witnessed "white pride" that is not strictly exclusionist or negatively racist in the sense most would use the term. Brian 66.91.76.200 (talk) 09:13, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

This article is biased and wrongly written, it clearly has a anti-white message which I find an insulting

As of this date, is there anything other than the paragraph of quotes from Ingram that is NPOV? The Ingram quotes are based on some very questionable assumptions that are not called out, but the other criticism paragraph is kind of needed to reflect very common views of the concept, and has appropriate caveats. Warren Dew (talk) 02:39, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

I too find this article terribly insulting and a typical illustration of the gross double-standard at work in this country. The white male demographic is the only strata in society that is not permitted to feel pride in itself. If any attempt is made it is immediately labeled racist and is badgered into dissolusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.68.139.252 (talk) 09:51, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

The problem with white pride is that every other pride movement was formed as a response to white oppression. This has contributed to an overwhelmingly negative view of whiteness where any attempt to exclaim pride in being white is seen as insensitive to the people who were victims of white people being so proud of their whiteness that they oppressed everyone else. And to 71.178.110.201, I don't think deleting this article is going to help anyone. Starting from scratch, however, wouldn't be such a bad idea. - Hashtag — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.102.158.19 (talk) 02:51, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Obviously, you do not have a clue. White Pride has been around as long as there were white people, as well as "x pride" for "x" people. It may not have been labeled as such, but from the time we crawled out of the ocean people have been proud of who they were. Saying "Black Pride" was formed in retaliation to "White Oppression" is asinine, unless you are saying that those peoples don't have a right to be proud of their culture and heritage on their own, only as a knee jerk reaction to whites. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.3.128.198 (talk) 15:24, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Why not to propose this article for deletion?--71.178.110.201 (talk) 21:27, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

The reality is that currently the people who most advocate for the slogan "white pride" are connected with white supremacist movements and as such the term is seen by many as cover for white supremacy, at least in the U.S. where most the advocates for the term reside. It would agree in theory that it's possible to show pride for the one's European ancestry without being a racist/supremacist, but the reality is that terms like "White pride" are seen a euphemism for white supremacy and any attempt to try and argue that the form of "White pride" your advocating is not racists will largely fall on deaf ears. Now it is generally considered acceptable to show pride in one or more particular European cultures that make up ones race such celebrating Irish, Italian, Scottish, and Russian cultures so long as it does not come across as nationalistic. The problem with anyone trying to show pride in white/European culture as a whole is that past expression of pride in European culture where used primarily as example of the superiority of the white/European cultures cultures and I don't see anyway that can be unbundled such that "White/European pride" can ever be seen as anything other then euphemism for white supremacy. There is also the issue of the fact that even if you could separate supremacy from pride in being white, I'm sure some would argue that their is no need to tie positive aspects of various European cultures to the fact the majority of their citizens have white skin color. Black and Asian pride has never been about positive aspects of black culture being so as a result of have a dark skin color (save for a few black supremacy groups) but rather simply a reaction the claims of white racists that black people are inferior due to their skin color. Since the main groups that argue for "White pride" being not inherently a racist slogan are in fact white supremacy groups and since they are a very small minority these days in the U.S., any discussion of the slogan is going to be weighted in favor of the majority view in this country. Wikipedia NPOV policy very clearly states that article should not give undue weight to very small minority views since that creates the false impression such views are held by more people then in reality. If it where even possible to write an article on non-racist pride in White/European culture that complied with Wikipedia policies, "White pride" is not the title it should be called due to it's primary use by white supremacy groups. Ultimately I think anyone who truly believes that the slogan "white pride" can and should have non-racist connotations much like Black and Asian pride movement, you just going to have to accept that their is little chance of the majority of people in the U.S. accepting that position anytime soon and the fact that this Wikipedia article makes that cleat does not mean the article is not NPOV. If at some point in the future a significant enough number of people agree that the slogan "white pride" necessarily racist then you can come back and change the article to reflect the change in views of the slogan. One other thing, I don't agree that this article should be deleted simply because some don't like the way it describe "White pride" as it's a notable topic. --Notcharliechaplin (talk) 19:38, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

RfC

BAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:41, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Swain/Nieli cite

I've asked for a full cite on these as I have been unable to verify the material. Searching for various pieces of the quote in the book has not turned up the quote cited. I'll give it a bit of time for someone to sleuth it out and see if I have access to a fully searchable text before yanking it. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:30, 21 August 2013 (UTC)