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Talk: Dorje Shugden

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Merger proposal

I propose that the article Dorje Shugden controversy be merged into the article Dorje Shugden. I am making this proposal as there is considerable overlap in the contents of these two articles and because the Dorje Shugden controversy cannot properly be explained or understood without context of the (various) explanations of the origin, history, and nature of this protector deity.

In discussing this merger proposal, please follow proper decorum and standard talk page guidelines, which include staying focused on the content, not on the involved editors, using threaded discussion formatting, not biting newcomers, and being clear and concise.

Chris Fynn (talk) 18:40, 6 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

The issue with merging them is that they are two different things. The controversy involves peoples criticisms and how the controversy arose, along with aspects regarding the ban. Dorje Shugden is an article about the deity and how he functions. Prasangika37 (talk) 11:02, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support: Separate article is a WP:FORK. Further comments and reasoning below. Montanabw(talk) 17:00, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - As it stands, the controversy is currently twice the size of the article and that it relies on many lengthy quotes references in its incomplete form. Merging would be met with probably 70% or more reduction in the citations and the article would suffer as a result. Keeping them separate is by all means the best result until a comparative inclusion on the Dorje Shugden article can be worked into the article. Then- if the other is found lacking and flawed, merged or redirected. Merges like this tend to result in a great reduction of the points of view and a cutting of extremely contentious material to a bare bones state in the name of balance. This balance doesn't need to exist in such a form on its own dedicated page - which is why it seems it was created in the first place. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:35, 9 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • At present Oppose; It might be bette rfirst to reach a stable concencus on the controversy-page, before considering a merger. Maybe. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:52, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now. The controversy article is way off topic at the moment. I suggest this article is improved before a merge is considered. Thank you, Jangdom Kjangdom (talk) 21:53, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Threaded discussion

(Please place any discussion on the merger proposal in this section. If you simply want to indicate support or opposition , please use the above section.)


@Beeflin: - Thanks for your comment above. I'm just proposing merging the content of the two articles. This should result in an article about as objective as the contents of the current articles are now. If possible, I will try to get an experienced neutral editor to make the merger. After the merger, anyone can then edit the combined article to improve its objectivity if they feel that is lacking. (I hope it will prove easier for editors to come up with one objective article that everyone concerned can live with, than it has been with two.)

I've notified everyone who has edited these articles over the last 6 months or so (with the exception of blocked users and those editing with only an IP address) of this merger proposal - so hopefully we can get enough feedback within a couple of weeks or so to decide whether or not this merger proposal should go ahead.

Chris Fynn (talk) 08:06, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Prasangika37: One of the previous discussions you link to was a proposal to delete the article, the other was a proposal to move it to a new name. Neither was a merger proposal and neither came from me. As to whether Dorje Shugden and Dorje Shugden controversy are separable or not - earlier I did suggest that this article be limited to the recent controversy and go back only to the time or the publication of Zeme Rinpoche's book or to the time of the Dalai Lama first speaking out against this practice and subsequent events. But when I suggested that others said it needs to cover things back to the time of the 13th Dalai Lama and Phabongkha Dechen Nyingpo - or even to the time of the 5th Dalai Lama because there is good evidence that there has always been some controversy surrounding Dorje Shugden. That being the case, how do you leave out anything about controversy out of this article and how do you leave discussion of the nature and function of Shugden out of the other? At least one side argues that the nature of Shugden is at the basis of the argument for the ban or continued worship of Shugden. The prohibition and subsequent protests are hard to understand without historical context. It seems to me most people think the two things (the deity and the controversy) are completely intertwined. If that is the case, they can't really be separated and when there are two articles there will always be a lot of overlap. Chris Fynn (talk) 13:58, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: Support merge. At present, both articles are actually not very long, though they have ridiculously long TOCs that are not MOS compliant. This is a prime candidate for a merge. There was no need for the split and to have an article only on the present controversy when it is a longstanding historical dispute is actually a WP:FORK. Montanabw(talk) 16:56, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@ChrisGualtieri:Noone suggested the controversy part be trimmed, other than the overlapping content.VictoriaGrayson (talk) 01:00, 9 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No one need suggest it, because that's exactly what happens. If the article was able to be entirely merged over with truly redundant text removed, the article would immediately qualify under WP:SPLIT for size or balance issues. Because the whole would be WP:UNDUE. Its a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation when it comes to resolving merges where the "fork" is larger than the target. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:21, 9 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If you remove the ridiculous overkill of headings in the TOC and look at the actual prose, these articles are both relatively short, this one only 4.3Kb, the other 15 kb of readable prose, based on the dr. pda tool. Yes, the controversy article is almost 4x longer than this one, but the truth is that a lot of the material in the other article is history that is equally relevant here. I find the point that this has been "controversial" from the outset to be a compelling argument. Montanabw(talk) 07:46, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Joshua Jonathan: Of course a stable consensus would be nice — but that has never really happened with either article - and I suspect one could wait a very long time for that eventuality. Possibly it might be easier to reach a stable consensus for a single article, rather than two? — But I'm probably dreaming. Chris Fynn (talk) 18:47, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The thing is, for many people who rely on Dorje Shugden, there is nothing controversial. It is just a deity that these people relate to. There are many well cited explanations for the different aspects of Dorje Shugden. If someone wants to come learn about Dorje Shugden, they aren't coming to learn about the controversy.. These things are not synonymous. The Controversy is also very political and involves the ban of Dorje Shugden, while there are things about Dorje Shugden himself that do not include these aspects and are more strictly religious. For a similar precdent, there is 'evolution-creationism controversy' and then an article about creationism and an article about evolution.Prasangika37 (talk) 18:49, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You could say the same of Scientology, Prasangika. But to cleanse one article of all controversy is inappropriate whitewashing. It is a false equivalency to compare this to the evolution/creation debate, as no Christian denomination has banned creationism beliefs from its ranks, even if it's complete nonsense. Montanabw(talk) 00:55, 11 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Prasangika37: All academic articles on the subject of Dorje Shugden say that there has been controversy surrounding this entity from its beginnings in the 17th Century - so you can't have a proper encyclopaedia article about Dorje Shugden without talking about controversy. The articles refer to each other and have a lot of overlap (needed for context). However, since both articles are frequently edited, more often than not they have divergent text. I proposed the merger because I feel a single coherent article would be better than this. BTW, I suspect people who "rely on Dorje Shugden" don't look to Wikipedia for their information on this entity. Chris Fynn (talk) 19:45, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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