Talk:Objections to evolution

Nominated to be checked for its neutrality

Wikipedia is WP:NOTSOAPBOX and talk pages are WP:NOTAFORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I add this section because I saw a banner but no matching Talk area. If anyone can point out the actual nomination details please insert below that so there can actually be Talk content of the nomination. Thanks. "This article has been nominated to be checked for its neutrality. Discussion of this nomination can be found on the talk page. (April 2014)" Markbassett (talk) 13:34, 28 April 2014 (UTC) p.s. Just to ID the source/date of this nomination -- the nomination was apparently made as revision 605245482 edited by 71.173.0.78 at 03:43, 22 April 2014 That editor then inserted at two paras in Unfalsifiability a tag for weasel words that have since been removed. Markbassett (talk) 15:45, 28 April 2014 (UTC) Markbassett - Looks like vandalism to me. If I'd seen it first I would have reverted it, but then that's my "trust no IP edits unless they are justified" "I'm a big fat jerk" style. My suggestion is we revert it and move on. Ckruschke (talk) 17:52, 28 April 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke Agreed. Dbrodbeck (talk) 17:59, 28 April 2014 (UTC) Ckruschke - it does not seem vandalism to me, it just did not define the issues per | POV-check guidance, so might be lazy or error or what the | NPOV calls 'drive-by tagging'. I'm sure the article has NPOV issues so do not see a check as needed, although I do wonder a bit how a POV check would work and what the particular results would be. Markbassett (talk) 13:40, 29 April 2014 (UTC) Markbassett - We probably just have a disagreement in terms. However, I think we agree that the way to fix any "possible" POV issues is not to slap a tag and walk away - its to create a Talk thread and work out specifics. I liken this to someone starting a talk thread stating "This page sucks" and then disappearing... Either way, I think we just delete it. If he comes back, we can work out any POV issues he raises "the correct way". Ckruschke (talk) 17:43, 29 April 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke Hmmm, further difficulties here make me reconsider this topic. That folks post such and walk away is not good WP practice but it seems that should be a WP concern. It does indicate possible article issues and that it can not be resolved absent better participation still leaves article concern and the level of article quality or areas of issues are not visible in an objective way. Do folks think bots could help? If there was an ad hoc or systematic approach WP had, I am thinking it possible to come up with indicators of contentious and indicators of biased out of the WP guidelines so WP could auto-magically flag pages of concern for either reason that would indicate directions to address. Markbassett (talk) 16:41, 31 May 2014 (UTC) Where is it non neutral? Dbrodbeck (talk) 19:12, 31 May 2014 (UTC) On April 21st, the IP [1] flagged the article as having a NPOV problem, as well as marking at least three spots as being "weasel-worded," albeit, with no explanation nor bothering to start any talkpage discussions about it. Because there was no explanation, nor suggestions for remedying given, the flags were later removed.--Mr Fink (talk) 20:34, 31 May 2014 (UTC) Which is correct procedure. No specifics/discussion, no tag. Dougweller (talk) 20:48, 31 May 2014 (UTC) But the correct procedure still leaves WP concern of some folks view it as biased -- and nothing got done for it and no further look or specification of location and nature... So I wonder if it would help to have a bot check or measure indicating NPOV objective flags -- such as percentage of the 'words to watch', high turnover in edits, low percentage of cites, and high use of quotes quotes. I'm not sure knowing the article is biased really is that bad tough, or would necessarily help in pointing out for what changes to do if any. Markbassett (talk) 06:12, 2 June 2014 (UTC) Wikipedia is written from reliable sources not from what "some folks" think. Now stop trolling.--Charles (talk) 10:23, 2 June 2014 (UTC) We don't need a bot for that. If any editor has a specific concern, they need to bring it to the talk page for discussion. Vague comments about possible NPOV are not productive. —Torchiest talkedits 13:46, 2 June 2014 (UTC) It is totally unnecessary to employ or craft a bot to check for NPOV problems simply because the neutrality of a page is incessantly challenged by anonymous tendentious editors who can not be bothered to either use the term (scientific) "theory" correctly, nor be bothered to explain their alleged concern for neutrality on the talkpage beyond jumping on a soapbox.--Mr Fink (talk) 20:57, 2 June 2014 (UTC) Torchiest, you correctly state a procedure that does not seem to be working -- just archive 8 alone has about 5 different NPOV issues and 4 scope ones. So if this does not work, in the sense of we have here an article that dozens of serious posters have noted issues with ... how can it get better ? A bot for objective measure that acknowledges indicators would be the only thing I can think of as a starting point, though I'm sure that has folks cringing too. Perhaps just flag it as controversial, many known questions not getting answered but best so far? Markbassett (talk) 00:55, 3 June 2014 (UTC) It will never be possible to satisfy people who do not like science so there will always be people posting commentary—archives with such commentary is not evidence of a problem. WP:NOTFORUM and WP:TPG state that article talk pages are not available for general opinions—please either explain examples of problematic text or drop the matter. Johnuniq (talk) 01:17, 3 June 2014 (UTC) Johnuniq - That was the specific text. The specific issue is this case here, of course. A call was made for neutrality check. Nothing gets done, and it's not clear what the norm is. My proposal for addressing it is to have the objectively countable NPOV indicators measured with a bot or bot-like count and then we would have an objective metric and completed a check which seems better than a nothing. I think the article has neutrality issues and scope issues and controversy going on but think this proposal is a better response -- in the sense of Talk being a place for the check, I'm proposing a count mechanic as better than a nothing. Markbassett (talk) 23:47, 3 June 2014 (UTC) Markbassett, You keep repeating there are problems, so lets move forward and be precise: please copy/paste here the specific text in need of attention and note precisely the problem for each. Thank you. BatteryIncluded (talk) 14:56, 3 June 2014 (UTC) The specific text in need of attention was/is this threads topic of course, the template flag calling for | POV-check. For | NPOV dispute, note guidance that there is a strong inductive argument that, if a page is in an NPOV dispute, it probably is not neutral—or, at least, that the topic is a controversial one, and one should be wary of a possible slant or bias. The salient point is that one side—who cares enough to be making the point—thinks that the article says something that other people would want to disagree with. ... The tag should only be removed when there is a consensus that the disputes have indeed been resolved. (Which does not seem to have happened) .... The tag is intended to signify that there is an active good-faith effort, grounded in policy, to resolve the perceived neutrality concern.... So I was hunting for what can be done in response and thought can see objectively check from MoS:Words to watch is at least the step of checking. Markbassett (talk) 00:13, 4 June 2014 (UTC) In addition to my "explain examples of problematic text", BatteryIncluded asked "copy/paste here the specific text in need of attention". According to recent replies there is no specific problem. Perhaps the objection is that there are some editors who would like the article to suggest that evolution may not be "true"—that is not what is meant by neutrality at Wikipedia. As there are no problems with the article, please stop raising nonspecific objections because that is disruptive as it requires attentiion from other editors. Johnuniq (talk) 00:22, 4 June 2014 (UTC) Well, being literal, the "copy/paste here the specific text in need of attention" is at the title of this thread and para 2 cited from revision 605245482 edited by 71.173.0.78 at 03:43, 22 April 2014 -- it is the word "pov-check". There is a call for pov-check and I have proposed something for it from the guidance of | POV-check and | NPOV dispute. I think that is the literal answer to your request, but perhaps you were implicitly making an alternative proposal to jump ahead to proposals of specific items for solution, or maybe specific fix recommendations, before or instead of trying an objective measure for pov-check ? That seems not really the pov-check thread location I was at, but if you want to propose some particular approach or criteria acceptable to you as a better way to pov-check it would be of interest. Markbassett (talk) 11:53, 4 June 2014 (UTC) Once again, I do not believe that there is any way that all Creationists will be satisfied that this article meets our NPOV policy (if they even understood it). The article is not meant to be 'neutral' in the sense of showing both sides equally, see WP:UNDUE. So there will always be complaints but that is not evidence that the article doesn't meet our policy and certainly not a reason to keep a tag on the article. Words to watch is of course a guideline and a good one if applied properly, not not a reason to tag the article. Dougweller (talk) 09:30, 4 June 2014 (UTC) Doug - this did not seem to respond to my post immediately above it, where I call on this thread to follow the NPOV guidance. Someone has acctually gone to the proper form to start an evaluation as opposed to vandalism or just stating opinion, but did not give details -- and I'm suggesting some metrics as the responding pov-check with WP guidance stated that seems relevant of simply putting forward NPOV (and this is far from the first) is inherently a strong inductive argument for concern. Belief that a group on some POV will be unhappy is not relevant to whether WP has done NPOV. NPOV is not the same as neutrality of content, and it is NPOV that is in question at this thread. Markbassett (talk) 18:33, 4 June 2014 (UTC) Markbasset, you continue ignoring that it has been repeatedly explained to you that the only editors who raise neutral point of view flags, or otherwise claim a point of view violation/dispute on this and similar pages are those editors who dislike science far too much to bother understanding it and or are Creationists who have a specific agenda to rewrite this page to deliberately cast unreasonable doubt on evolution(ary biology) and science. Please provide an immediate example of this alleged problem, or please desist your tendentious editing.--Mr Fink (talk) 18:41, 4 June 2014 (UTC) There is no POV dispute here, there is, however, a severe case of WP:IDHT. Would some kind soul please close and collapse this discussion, it is a time sink. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:12, 4 June 2014 (UTC) Dbrodbeck -- funny, that is the most you've contributed and seems it might be a confession. Not to be direct about it but if you don't have anything to offer for actually doing a pov-chheck, or interest in the topic, you can just skip reading the thread about it. Markbassett (talk) 18:40, 4 June 2014 (UTC) So, you insist that there is a big problem but you are unable to say what it is. How can you write so many pages about nothing? We are done here. Thank you. BatteryIncluded (talk) 12:17, 4 June 2014 (UTC) Battery - (od since your post did not seem directed to Drobeck as indent would imply) Undone; please note the WP guidance. There was a call for pov-check; simply hiding the thread seems contrary to that. Markbassett (talk) 18:43, 4 June 2014 (UTC) Under WP guidance, Markbassett, please desist on making vague proposals to solve a problem that's already dealt with, especially if you can not be bothered to clarify your vague proposals.--Mr Fink (talk) 18:53, 4 June 2014 (UTC) (edit conflict) I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just confused about the process. When someone adds an NPOV tag, they must bring their concerns to the talk page for discussion. The way to do that is not simply to open a new section mentioning the tag. Specific pieces of the article purported to have POV issues must be brought to the talk page, in order that they may be analyzed. You have still not done that. Making a blanket statement that the entire article is POV will not work. That is why this discussion was closed. Again, please draw attention to one or more specific pieces of the article that you feel have problems. Otherwise this section will be closed again. —Tourchiest talkedits 19:01, 4 June 2014 (UTC) Markbasset, I have read the thread, THERE IS NOTHING HERE. You are, once more, wasting everyone's time. And what 'might be a confession', of what exactly? Your WP:IDHT behaviour is beyond annoying. Please stop. There is no POV problem, you have brought literally nothing to this discussion. Stop now, please. Dbrodbeck (talk) 19:55, 4 June 2014 (UTC) Markbassett, you have gone beyond our assumption of good faith. Even when after an administrator (Dougweller) explained to you the tagging procedure and noted that there is no POV issue to address in this article, you remain in your soapbox of disruption and distraction. You have to realize that WP:Competence is required for collective work, and you have shown little to none. BatteryIncluded (talk) 19:58, 4 June 2014 (UTC) Of course, his discomfort is explained if Mark Bassett is the pastor that speaks on Creationism vs. Evolution [2],[3] the same who gives positive reviews to Creationist books and negative ones to science (Richard Dawkins)[4]. BatteryIncluded (talk) 20:16, 4 June 2014 (UTC) —Tourchiest No, I think I have the process correct and close to what you say, i.e. the guidance at Template:POV-check to be precise says "should" address the issues on Talk page, otherwise agree that that is the stated mechanism, and the form of pov check template seems whole article not a section, otherwise procedure got it the same here. The editor 71.173.0.78 did not start a Talk topic, though he had used proper process up to that point, and I do not see anything for handling that so maybe it runs off guide at that point and maybe that I started the section is only sort of back on that pathway. So ... a month later, and reconsidering it ... left with a concern that WP process can not progress absent more data, and even ignoring that still leaves article POV concern and without any specifics of the level of article quality or areas of issues. Hence, I proposed the notion of mechanical measures as a response in this situation that would have at least some flavor of actual pov-check and pathway option. I personally did not make the pov-check request but have been trying to find a way move the process to actual product which would better suit the guidance goals and a general check something seems better than a nothing. Markbassett (talk) 21:24, 4 June 2014 (UTC) Please could you check what you have written above...it appears to make no sense? Theroadislong (talk) 21:30, 4 June 2014 (UTC) To quote Dougweller 'Which is correct procedure. No specifics/discussion, no tag. Dougweller (talk) 20:48, 31 May 2014 (UTC)' There was no discussion, there was a drive by tag, which was removed, which is how things work. Honestly, you are wasting a great deal of editors' time, yours included. Dbrodbeck (talk) 21:46, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Cambrian explosion

So folks know it's there and look so maybe improve it: I have written a subsection for the Cambrian explosion complexity argument for the 'Creation of complex structures' section as requested at top, at least enough to present the Cambrian Explosion and some of the scientific struggles with it. The complexity argument seems to be about the phyla level occurrences so rapidly then (and none since). I have put in readable substantial sources, but would have liked to include that counts up to 100 phyla (attributed to Valentine; Clark 1997), or get Valentines latest. Markbassett (talk) 04:04, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

No adds from anyone on Valentine and complexity argument is getting lost with speed inserts and false blaming the cites so trying to clarify ...

Markbassett (talk) 23:17, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Been 10 days and no talk or edits so I guess the clarification was somewhat acceptable. Would have hoped someone had more from Valentine or if newer Cladistics views play with the Phylum level of classic hierarchial view, but guess that is for another day. Will check back in a few weeks and edit the header that called for this section if things seem to have met the call. Markbassett (talk) 02:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I've edited the to-do list to reflect the Cambrian Explosion bit inserted seems to be sticking so that to-do item is now done. It could be expanded by Valentine or other materials I don't know of as routine wiki gardening as or when folks find something relevant. Markbassett (talk) 17:11, 23 August 2014 (UTC).

Proposed addition (revised)

Conversely, it is a false premise that the second law of thermodynamics applies only to isolated systems. Exerpt from a university course:

“second Law of thermodynamics can be stated in several equivalent ways, three of which are:

...

3) The entropy of an isolated system never decreases. It can only stay the same or increase. If the system is not isolated, then the change in entropy of the system (Ss) plus the change in entropy of the environment (Senv) must be greater than or equal to zero.

∆ S = ∆ Ss + ∆ Senv ≥ 0

The total entropy of any system plus that of its environment increases as a result of any natural process.“

Inanimate systems which are not isolated respond to the law as expected. “We also know from experience that systems tend to reach a state of higher disorder: smoke spontaneously diffuses through the air, sugar dissolves uniformly in water and your bedroom becomes chaotic after only a few days of neglect!” Organisms, in contrast, being open systems (not isolated) respond differently, growing ih in size and complexity. This contradicts the implication that an open (not isolated) system is a cause or an explanation for resolving the conflict of evolution and the second law. “Self-organization” is not the rule in nonliving, not isolated (open) systems.

The open (not isolated) system of Earth is a necessary condition but is not sufficient to account for the increased organization produced by evolution. Energy input from the Sun does not comparably affect inanimate systems to produce order. Nor does a net increase in entropy or an increase in total entropy of necessity cause or explain an increase in organization. Ice melting in a glass of water in a warm room increases entropy but there is no apparent attendant increase in organization. Quantitatively or qualitatively, a net increase in entropy or an increase in total entropy does not of necessity cause or explain an increase in organization.

The Mathematical Intelligencer statement should be considered circumspectly. That fertilized eggs turn into babies is seen as routine and as unremarkable as water freezing into ice needs to be evaluated in light of the description by Schrödinger in his 1944 book What is Life?

“An organism’s astonishing gift of concentrating a ‘stream of order’ on itself and thus escaping the decay into atomic chaos – of ‘drinking orderliness’ from a suitable environment – seems to be connected with the presence of the ‘aperiodic solids’ the chromosome molecules, which doubtless represent the highest degree of well-ordered atomic association we know of – much higher than the ordinary crystal…”

Dobzhansky, the author of the dictum: “Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution” also regarded that evolution exceeds the ordinary as divine involvement is alleged:

“The organic diversity becomes, however, reasonable and understandable if the Creator has created the living world not by caprice but by evolution propelled by natural selection. It is wrong to hold creation and evolution as mutually exclusive alternatives. I am a creationist and an evolutionist. Evolution is God’s, or Nature’s method of creation.” LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 23

07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

References

'A recent study' in 'The American Biology Teacher'? References to a book written by a non biologist in 1944? I don't think so. Dbrodbeck (talk) 23:33, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Dbrodbeck - are you looking at the wrong thing?? The article cited to that is from February 2014, seems appropriate to call that "A recent study". The references for it seem visible online, mostly 2010 thru 2013, with one 2009, one 2008, one 1999 and one historical 1865. See url http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1525/abt.%202014.76.2.4?journalCode=ambt& Markbassett (talk) 00:12, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn’t a teaching journal be a good place to start if a correction were needed in the teaching of biologists about the second law?LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 16:29, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I imagine it would be in big review articles, and it isn't. Dbrodbeck (talk) 17:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

That, and it would be more beneficial if it were a little more recent in origin.--Mr Fink (talk) 17:34, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

LEBOLTZMANN2 - It could be a good place but it seems limited. I would expect a teaching journal to focus on teaching techniques and practice, and this journal article about handling questions on thermodynamics relationship would seem limited to a fixed context that the overall course material and goals is fixed ... just can put in side remarks or context to external. To change the content would seem to require more the type of political action and financial mechanisms shown by No Child Left Behind or Common Core. But so what ? It does not seem to really be something that would be meat for the Objections wiki article at the Thermodynamics section though. Markbassett (talk) 00:23, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Markbassett This line of discussion could lead to a problem. The premise of the section is “The 2nd law of thermodynamics applies only to isolated systems.” By implication, the claim is the law does not apply to open systems and somehow this explains the matter. It is not likely a major scientific journal would publish an article on what has been known since 1865 (Clausius), that is the second law is a law and thereby applies universally, to open and to isolated thermodynamic systems. LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 20:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

LEBOLTZMANN2 - I gotta say go with the cites. If the teaching guidance is contrary to 'closed', then the article 'closed' might get a mod; but the article should follow UNDUE and not show as minority view as dominant, and if it's not clearly an objection then should not add a WP:OR step of logic. Just saying the usual applies -- to report what's said in the topic of this article and not present conclusions or prominence that isn't out there. Markbassett (talk) 00:37, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Dbrodbeck So the Mathematical Intelligencer is acceptable as a reference.

The Mathematical Intelligencer publishes articles about mathematics, about mathematicians, and about the history and culture of mathematics. Written in an engaging, informal style, our pages inform and entertain a broad audience of mathematicians and the wider intellectual community. We welcome expository articles on all kinds of mathematics, and articles that portray the diversity of mathematical communities and mathematical thought, emergent mathematical communities around the world, new interdisciplinary trends, and relations between mathematics and other areas of culture. Humor is welcome, as are puzzles, poetry, fiction, and art.

And the American Biology Teacher is not.

The American Biology Teacher is an award winning and peer-refereed professional journal for K-16 biology teachers. Articles include topics such as modern biology content, biology teaching strategies for the classroom and laboratory, field activities, and a wide range of assistance for application and professional development.

Mathematician Jason Rosenhouse is acceptable.

Books

"The Monty Hall Problem: The Remarkable Story of Math's Most Contentious Brain Teaser," Oxford University Press

"Among the Creationists: Dispatches from the Anti-Evolutionist Front Line," Oxford University Press

"Taking Sudoku Seriously: The Math Behind the World's Most Popular Pencil Puzzle," Oxford University Press

And physicist, Nobel Laureate Erwin Schrödinger is not

According to James D. Watson's memoir, DNA, the Secret of Life, Schrödinger's book gave Watson the inspiration to research the gene, which led to the discovery of the DNA double helix structure in 1953. Similarly, Francis Crick, in his autobiographical book What Mad Pursuit, described how he was influenced by Schrödinger's speculations about how genetic information might be stored in molecules.

And geneticist and evolutionary biologist Theodosius Dobzhansky is not.

A prominent geneticist and evolutionary biologist, and a central figure in the field of evolutionary biology for his work in shaping the unifying modern evolutionary synthesis. He published a major work of the modern evolutionary synthesis, Genetics and the Origin of Species, in 1937. He was awarded the National Medal of Science in 1964 and the Franklin Medal in 1973.LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 17:07, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I wish you guys stop banging your heads on the Second Law. Yes, life is an exception, but the "divine" magic is not the scientific explanation of this anomaly. Please refer to Entropy and life. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 23:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

LEBOTLZMANN - *all* inputs apply, just present what is out there in due respect to what it actually says and what prominence in the topic it has. Just go with the cites and report what they are in terms of thermodynamic objections to evolution -- be careful of the portrayal in particular. For example, I think you shouldn't say as a fact "is" or a particular label such as "Conversely it is a false premise" unless it can be solidly supported that the exact phrase 'false premise' is out there and agreed with so much as to be regarded as fact. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:32, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Violation of the second law of thermodynamics

Further information: Entropy and life

Proposed revision with additions

Since Earth receives energy from the Sun, it is an open system. The 2nd law of thermodynamics applies only to isolated systems.

Objection

Another objection is that evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics. Though the law applies to all systems, in the case of a closed one it states, "the entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium". In other words, an ideal isolated system's entropy (a measure of the dispersal of energy in a physical system so that it is not available to do mechanical work) will tend to increase or stay the same, not decrease. Creationists argue that evolution violates this physical law by requiring a decrease in entropy, or disorder, over time.

Reply

This claim is based on a manifestation of the law only applicable to isolated systems, which do not exchange matter or energy with their surroundings. Organisms, in contrast, are open systems, as they constantly exchange energy and matter with their environment: for example animals eat food and excrete waste, and radiate and absorb heat. Similarly, the Earth absorbs energy from the Sun and emits energy back into space. The Sun-Earth-space system does not violate the second law, because the enormous increase in entropy due to the Sun and Earth radiating into space dwarfs the local decrease in entropy caused by the existence and evolution of self-organizing life.

Since the second law of thermodynamics has a precise mathematical definition, this argument can be analyzed quantitatively. This was done by physicist Daniel F. Styer, who concluded: "Quantitative estimates of the entropy involved in biological evolution demonstrate that there is no conflict between evolution and the second law of thermodynamics."

Issues

The second law applies to all systems, open (not isolated) systems as well as isolated systems. "The second Law of thermodynamics can be stated in several equivalent ways, three of which are:::...

3) The entropy of an isolated system never decreases. It can only stay the same or increase.

If the system is not isolated, then the change in entropy of the system (Ss) plus the change in entropy of the environment (Senv) must be greater than or equal to zero.

∆ S = ∆ Ss + ∆ Senv ≥ 0

The total entropy of any system plus that of its environment increases as a result of any natural process." “We also know from experience that systems tend to reach a state of higher disorder: smoke spontaneously diffuses through the air, sugar dissolves uniformly in water and your bedroom becomes chaotic after only a few days of neglect!”

As open systems, organisms seem to be anomalies. "There is a subtle but significant difference between biological and non-living open (not isolated) systems. For example, a fence post is an open system. A metal post will thermally expand when warmed by external factors (sunlight or ambient air) but retains its structure and does not grow in complexity...it is seen that biological open systems behave as if internally controlled, not reacting to external variables in the way that nonliving systems do. Cells and organisms act upon their surroundings, even foraging, taking in and rejecting nutrients, controlling quantity and variety."

Similar contrasting responses are observed even within organisms: “Unlike the parts of a cell which simply deteriorate if isolated, whole cells can be removed from a plant or animal and cultured in a laboratory where they will grow and reproduce for extended periods of time” . Again a question: What makes a part of a cell react as expected by the second law, and yet the whole cell grows and reproduces? Organisms, such as sunflowers, mature, decline, and die (even if placed in a situation where there is adequate sunlight and nutrients) just as expected by the second law. This behavior is not caused by change in total entropy of earth’s system or the sun’s radiant energy, but by some other governing mechanism.

Perspectives

In a published letter to the editor of The Mathematical Intelligencer titled "How anti-evolutionists abuse mathematics", mathematician Jason Rosenhouse stated:

The fact is that natural forces routinely lead to decreases in entropy. Water freezes into ice and fertilised eggs turn into babies. Plants use sunlight to convert carbon dioxide and water into sugar and oxygen, but [we do] not invoke divine intervention to explain the process [...] thermodynamics offers nothing to dampen our confidence in Darwinism.

Nobel Laureate physicist Schrödinger in his book What is Life?

“An organism’s astonishing gift of concentrating a ‘stream of order’ on itself and thus escaping the decay into atomic chaos – of ‘drinking orderliness’ from a suitable environment – seems to be connected with the presence of the ‘aperiodic solids’ the chromosome molecules, which doubtless represent the highest degree of well-ordered atomic association we know of – much higher than the ordinary crystal…”

Evolutionary biologist Dobzhansky, the author of the dictum: “Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution”:

“The organic diversity becomes, however, reasonable and understandable if the Creator has created the living world not by caprice but by evolution propelled by natural selection. It is wrong to hold creation and evolution as mutually exclusive alternatives. I am a creationist and an evolutionist. Evolution is God’s, or Nature’s method of creation.”

LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 17:52, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Can you please summarize in fewer, simpler words about what it is you're trying to propose? Are you proposing references to improve the section about the Creationist trope of "evolution magically violates the 2nd Law" or are you saying that the counterarguments against this objections are and are not valid?--Mr Fink (talk) 18:32, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I believe they want the 'Proposed revision with additions' text added to the article in its entirety. Is that essentially it, LEBOLTZMANN2? --‖ Ebyabe ^talk - Union of Opposites ‖ 20:37, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Ebyabe Yes. What is proposed is to replace the section Volation of the second law with this revision. It incorporates all of the original article and adds some information under three new titles.

The reason for the addition is that the counterarguments raise issues. If “the second law only applies to isolated systems”, then the second law cannot be a law of science which are universal. The excerpt from a university course shows how the law applies to systems that are not isolated. Examples from the references point out other inconsistencies. LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 11:08, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Bad idea.

The situation ist this: Creationists claim that evolution contradicts the second law. It doesn't. The article says that und gives reasons. That's enough.

The creationists handle the situation like this: after the refutation, they change the direction of their reasoning and stop talking about the second law, while pretending they still do.

Earlier, you suggested the sentence

"The open (not isolated) system of Earth is a necessary condition but is not sufficient to account for the increased organization produced by evolution."

This is exactly what I am talking about. You are not talking about the second law, you are just saying "I don't get it." You are unable to explain "increased organization" from just energy input. This is your personal problem. It has nothing to do with the science, just with your imagination, knowledge, and reasoning ability. It is not a counter argument. And it has nothing to do with the second law.

The suggestions directly above are not any better:

• The Schrödinger quote just says that life is complex. This has nothing to do with the second law.
• The Dobzhansky quote talks about the compatibility of religion and science. This has nothing to do with the second law.

If we add things that have nothing to do with the second law, to a paragraph about the second law, we give in to the creationist obfuscation strategy.

Closer to the subject are sentences like this:

"As open systems, organisms seem to be anomalies."

This is just wrong. All systems are open systems. Isolated systems do not exist in reality, they are ideal concepts that help us deal with reality. You approximate something as an isolated system, then look at the deviations and determine their consequences. This way you can handle some situations - namely the ones where you are close enough to an isolated systems. If the system is "too open", it won't work very well.

Your whole suggestion is wrongheaded in some way or other. This is because you are trying to justify a wrongheaded worldview. Give it up, it's hopeless. Others have tried for decades to save the Second Law Objection and failed miserably in every case. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Nevertheless the clear statement: “The 2nd law of thermodynamics applies only to isolated systems.” is misleading. That statement is contradicted by the description of how the second law applies to not isolated systems. The very definition of a scientific law contradicts the statement. Unless this issue is addressed, Wikipedia is misleading those who come for information on evolution.LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 22:26, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

There is exactly 0 chance that Wikipedia will ever assert that the second law of thermodynamics is incompatible with biological evolution, regardless of how many times you repeat yourself on this page. --JBL (talk) 23:05, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

LEBOLTZMANN2, please do not use the talkpage as an arena from which to launch ridiculously inane and inanely false accusations of there being some sort of inane political conspiracy to cover up the alleged assertion that the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics magically prevents evolution from occurring. Wikipedia will not allow this assert because A) IT IS A DEMONSTRABLY FALSE ASSERTION, and posting false assertions as true directly compromises the primary purpose of Wikipedia being an encyclopedia, and B) claiming that this is true would be giving undue and unfair weight in favor of fringe groups. If it was true, then we would not see any descent with modification at all, as all organisms would be perfect copies of their parents, and all situations of speciation would be blatant, magical miracles of God.

Having said that, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD AND PUPPIES, PLEASE MAKE A SUCCINCT PROPOSAL THAT IS NOT AN INDECIPHERABLE WALL OF TEXT THAT DOES NOT NEED THE INCLUSION OF INANE RANTS ABOUT INANE POLITICAL CONSPIRACIES.--Mr Fink (talk) 19:20, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

JBL If the second law of thermodynamics were compatible with biological evolution, then a logical narrative is that the second law applies only to isolated systems. Of course, this requires us to believe Clausius would have promulgated a new universal law of physics that applies to isolated systems only and in contrast to the first law which applies everywhere and at all times. And as Hob Gadling correctly points out, Isolated systems “do not exist in reality”.

Note the quality of the supporting scholarship for the isolated system argument:

Reference 170 was identified by the author as “This article is adapted from my notes for Mr. Tompkins Gets Serious: The Essential George Gamow.” The author does not state if it was ever published.

Reference 171 is from “Talk.origins is a Usenet newsgroup devoted to the discussion and debate of biological and physical origins....” “The TalkOrigins Archive is a collection of articles and essays, most of which have appeared in talk.origins at one time or another...”LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 11:11, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Mr Fink Sorry for any false accusations or rants. As to the science, things naturally fall apart whereas in evolution organisms grow in size and complexity prompting a need for explanation. The explanation in Wikipedia based on the concept of a system that is not isolated is not as good an explanation or “counter argument” as some would like to think. This should not be a problem as scientists change the way they look at things when faced with new information.LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 11:43, 6 October 2014 (UTC)