Template talk:Same-sex unions

USA - too many states?

Is the USA reaching that point at which there are too many states to list individually, and we should change to something like "20 states, 8 tribes"? - htonl (talk) 23:38, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

I updated this template's sandbox to show what that would look like. I could go either way on it. Dralwik|^{Have a Chat} 23:46, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

I'd prefer to keep the individual states. There seems to be plenty of room to list them all in the template and they all do link to individual articles. If each state didn't have its own distinct article on the subject, I might feel differently about it. Rreagan007 (talk) 03:26, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Rreagan007. Ron 1987 (talk) 04:04, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Maybe if we did this with other countries, but I prefer having the states listed. --Prcc27 (talk) 22:26, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

I *think* the only other countries where there are more than 15 internal units where marriage has been that much of a one at a time by internal unit, issue are Brazil which is now completely ME, and Mexico which will probably be as screwy as the US is now within 5 years.Naraht (talk) 22:33, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Canada was bit-by-bit, but with 10 provinces and 3 territories, it totals less than 15 internal units. When 9 (IIRC) of those 13 had passed a SSM law, the national government decided to try for a national law to bring the last four into line. Maybe when the USA reaches 34 or so, somebody will propose a federal law. So, we're about half-way there. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:11, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Brazil maxed out at 13 states before the Supreme Court stepped in and legalized same-sex marriage throughout the country. As for the US, we'll almost certainly have a Supreme Court case in the next two years. Congress doesn't have jurisdiction over state marriage laws, only over federal recognition. Dralwik|^{Have a Chat} 23:40, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

• That's actually not true... DOMA was passed by congress and the Respect for Marriage Act was already proposed in Congress. Congress does have jurisdiction over state marriage laws because federal law overrules state law (Supremacy Clause). Prcc twenty-seven (talk)

I agree, the USA has too many states. At minimum, the Dakotas, the Virginias, the Carolinas and Colorado/Wyoming should be merged, Delaware should be given back to Pennsylvania or merged with Maryland and Idaho should be split and given to Montana and Utah. :)Naraht (talk) 04:23, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Dear Mr. President --Redrose64 (talk) 15:55, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I'd also support not to list them all; the US is now using up 7 lines, no other country has more than 3. (If possible, it'd be nice to have a pop-up window opening when hovering over "20 states" which does give the full list; same for tribes.) The template is supposed to be a short overview.--Roentgenium111 (talk) 20:44, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Fully agree with Roengenium... This should stop at some point and 20-odd entries seems to be the right moment... Those who are really interested will find their info 1 click away.... L.tak (talk) 21:58, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I concur. Remember, the US is taking up half the "recognition" space as well. Because of the complexities in the US, it is understandably taking up disproportionate space in the articles, but at this point, the template is just becoming a wall of two-character abbreviations, most of which probably aren't recognized by non-US readers (and more than a few US readers) anyway. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:16, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. As a non-American, I don't know any of the state abbreviations (some, like NY or DC, are easily guessed, but most are not), although I know all US states' full names. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 10:48, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I've implemented the change, linking "19 states" to the corresponding table of the US article. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 14:37, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps the US should be split off into it's own template for the purposes of listing each state? Such as done with Template:LGBT in Canada Me-123567-Me (talk) 04:53, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

We do have Template:Same-sex unions in the United States. Dralwik|^{Have a Chat} 06:47, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Not yet in effect

Can we turn the greek letter into an asterisk instead..? Prcc27 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 22:11, 30 June 2014

Religious Recognition

This template lists where same-sex marriages or similar unions are either performed or recognized by the state. I am aware that various religions perform same-sex weddings as part of their faith. Shall we create a new section on the template listing them?

Pros: 1. This directly relates to recognition of same-sex unions

2. It would be educational

3. It is involved in the legal debate as a federal lawsuit on religious freedom in North Carolina is being brought forward by the United Church of Christ and other ministers in General Synod of the United Church of Christ v. Cooper http://www.ucc.org/news/free-religion-lawsuit-alliance-baptists-06052014.html http://www.freedomtomarry.org/litigation/entry/north-carolina

Cons: 1. May change the template, as there is currently a monopoly held on the template by legal issues in states, countries, and other sovereign states.

2. Certain denominations as a whole would definitely be listed, but confusion may ensue as many denominations (as a whole) that do not recognize/ bless same-sex unions have inside groups trying to change church policy and may independently perform them and bless them on their own without official denomination approval. The Reconciling Ministries Network within the United Methodist Church is one of many examples.

I think that if religious recognition is added, that these informal groups should not be included, for better or for worse. An alternative idea that is inclusive could involve creating a link that shows a list of informal religious sub-organizations that do bless unions, without full church support.

Note that since this template only includes places that recognize or perform unions, therefore listing churches that do recognize/ perform/bless same-sex unions not would not be necessary.

I also note that church changes on this subject are rare so it would not need frequent revisions, unlike pages like "Same-sex Marriage in the United States."

Proposed additions below:

Christian denominations

Episcopal Church

Friends General Conference (Quakers)

Metropolitan Community Churches

Unitarian Universalist Association

United Church of Christ

Unity

Source http://www.believeoutloud.com/background/christianity-and-lgbt-equality

Jewish Movements:

Reform

Reconstructionist

Conservative

Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2012/12/07/religious-groups-official-positions-on-same-sex-marriage/

Note the above link iis from 2012, and there may be changes.

This is not a comprehensive list, as it is hard to research this topic, many religions exist, not all support, and some have no position or are in the midst of a debate. If anyone can improve this, please, go ahead and update it. I don't want to leave out religions that do affirm, for the sake of truth, inclusion, and political correctness. Please cite your source in any discussion.

I recognize this is a divisive idea to add this and I welcome respectful debate on this sensitive topic. The conditions following this apply:

1. Do not insult any religions mentioned

2. This is not a place to debate whether homosexuality should be religiously recognized, this is a debate over whether religions shall be included on the template that already bless same-sex unions.

I am aware that Wikipedia pages on this topic already exist, the question is whether to put it in the template or not.

Thank you all!

166.147.104.162 (talk) 20:00, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Anyone have thoughts? I posted this about a month ago. Also, I'm not an editor, so I can't make the actual changes.98.253.175.243 (talk) 03:31, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

It's a good idea, but I think it'd be much simpler to limit this template to geographic jurisdictions. With religious denominations, we'd have to track down which ones support equal marriage and to keep an eye on new announcements which often don't get the media attention of when a country legalizes it. If you want to try a template of such denominations, that could be a really nice way to track them. Dralwik|^{Have a Chat} 00:52, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

I think that it would run into difficulties of scale - while we can obviously point to some big groups, there are a g-dzillion little groups and independent churches worldwide. We've been lucky on the political situation in that it has mostly been decided on the national level, rather than on the sub-national level. Not all of these groups are top-down; while Roman Catholicism may have a central planning point that makes the big policy decisions and overrides the local groups, other groups are more organizations of cooperative independents joined by common interests, where the group exists to do things that are useful in coordination, but doesn't so much dictate what the individual churches do. You point to Jewish movements, but while those movements may have groups within them that temples are commonly members of, not even all US temples that practice Conservative Judaism are part of United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism. So we have questions of how granular we get, and how overwhelming this addition might be... and unlike political boundaries, one cannot quickly do a map summary. If this were to be done, there would have to be some practical limit (groups whose membership represent .1% or more of the world population, say) or organizational method in place. --Nat Gertler (talk) 14:12, 22 August 2014 (UTC) (Just to illustrate the complexity, I quote this from Conservative Judaism: "In December 2006, a responsum was adopted by the Committee that approved the ordination of gay and lesbian rabbis and permitted commitment ceremonies for lesbian and gay Jews (but not same-sex marriage), while maintaining the traditional prohibition against anal sex between men.[25] An opposing responsum, that maintained the traditional prohibitions against ordinations and commitment ceremonies, was also approved. Both responsa were enacted as majority opinions, with some members of the Committee voting for both.") --Nat Gertler (talk) 14:43, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Too Many States Revisited

Okay, the template looks stupid now. Why are the 5 states under "Previously performed but not invalidated" not labeled "5 states"..? If we're going to use the "19 states", we should use it for the previously performed and for countries with more than one sub-jurisdiction as well. This template should be consistent. A big issue with the change though is that it doesn't link directly to the state's same-sex marriage page which is a big problem. The individual links are really important (I can not stress that enough). and I don't think the template was all that cluttered before and it didn't really bother me. Prcc★27 (talk) 04:52, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm changing the template back to the way it was as there was clear opposition to the proposal that has yet to be addressed. Prcc★27 (talk) 07:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Ok, which discussion do you want to have? The one about wether we should have individual states of the US in the template by abbreviations? Or the one about consistency of the implementation? L.tak (talk) 08:00, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I think we should start off by discussing whether or not we should have individual states of the US in the template. Then, if we decide to get rid of the individual states we can discuss doing that throughout the whole template, not just the United States of America. I oppose changing the template. Prcc twenty-seven (talk) 11:49, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Then I suggest you give your suggestions in the sections up... I thought there was broad consensus for implementation (after having this discussed several times and always getting to a consensus that there should be a point where a country takes up simply too much space in the template and things become contra productive... Let's see in a week or so if the consensus has changed there and wether the discussion is complete and wait for implementation until that there... You may want to explain a bit your "oppose change" position in relation to the "other states should do so as well" position in the context of the arguments followed in the past months (related to amount of space). L.tak (talk)

Okay, at what point is it considered "too much space"? 17 sub-jurisdictions? 18? 19? 20? I don't think that's been established yet.. The template isn't even that cluttered. Even if it was, all that would mean is that there are a lot of jurisdictions in the United States that legalized same-sex marriage. If 20+ countries legalize same-sex marriage we're not gonna leave them off the template because it's "too cluttered" are we..? The main reason the proposal is an issue is that it doesn't link to the individual same-sex marriage pages. Those pages are important and should be included on the template. Prcc twenty-seven (talk) 00:59, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

What's the point of establishing this new thread instead of continuing the above (where the purported "inconsistency" was already addressed, and no opposition to the suggested change was given afterwards)?

Obviously subnational entities are less relevant than countries. You've given no argument why US states' pages are supposed to be "really important" for a worldwide (!) overview template. They are still linked indirectly via the linked US page, just like the individual articles of the Canadian states which legalized SSM individually are. And as discussed above, the states' abbreviations are likely incomprehensible for most non-Americans anyway - they're literally clutter to me. If you want to list all 19 states then why not the 10 individual tribes, a much lower number? The template was consistent in summarizing all lists of ten or more subentities after my edit; it's inconsistent now (as it was before) in this regard. (FWIW, a limit of ten or so subnational jurisdictions seems reasonable to me for summarizing. I also wouldn't mind summarizing or even removing the "previously performed" states due to their lower relevance, but that's another topic.)

I wouldn't mind putting the links to the individual states in a footnote to the template (or a pop-up window shown when hovering above the US line, if that's possible) if you insist on keeping direct links to their articles. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 17:57, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I think if we're going to remove the links from the United States then we should do the same to the other countries with subjurisdictions. Many people might not understand the abbreviations for the respective subjurisdictions of Australia and Mexico, so what's your point..? How are they any different from the abbreviations of the United States? That's not a good reason to remove them! I could support having a footnote or pop-up window for all countries with subjurisdictions. But the fact that the United States has a lot of states with ssm doesn't make their articles any less important or relevant than say the articles for subjurisdicitions of Mexico. So whatever we do to the United States, I feel we must do to the other countries. Also, the reason we don't list all 10 tribes is because there is only 1 article for all ten tribes. I don't really care if we remove the previously performed. Prcc twenty-seven (talk) 21:44, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Let's be real here: U.S. state abbreviations are likelier to be familiar to an English-speaking audience (and this is English-language Wikipedia) than state abbreviations in, say, Mexico. But we use Mexican state abbreviations anyway. Why not? The information is presented in a clear and direct way, and the awesome thing about wikilinks is that if you want to learn more about something, you can click the blue link and gain the knowledge you seek. -Kudzu1 (talk) 03:29, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

The obvious difference between the US SSM entry and e.g. Mexico (as repeatedly pointed out) is the number of states with SSM - summarizing 19 states saves space, while "summarizing" e.g. Mexico's two states actually increases the amount of text. Other than that, I wouldn't mind summarizing the subjurisdictions of all countries; I'd also like to get rid of the other "cryptic" abbreviations. If you want to keep all individual US states just because they have individual articles, then why not list the Canadian and Brazilian states which have individual articles? To me, the template should primarily be an information summary, and only secondarily a "link farm". Note that the UK's subjurisdictions are listed individually although they don't have individual articles, putting in doubt your argument for not listing the tribes.

@Kudzu1: Likelier yes, but still probably not likely. As Nat wrote in the above thread, not even all US readers will know the abbreviations; and the US is only a small part of the English-speaking world. The awesome thing about wikilinking "19 states" as I did is that if you wanted to learn more about the individual states' laws, you could click the blue link and gain the knowledge you seek from the US article's table and links. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 19:52, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Summarizing Australia's states decreases the amount of text though... If we are going to get rid of abbreviations it has to be consistent throughout the template. Also, UK's subjurisdictions are countries. I didn't like how the "19 states" was wikilinked; it didn't link to the states' articles. Prcc twenty-seven (talk) 05:50, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

The UK's subjurisdictions England, Scotland etc. are only "nations", not countries (as are many tribes which call themselves "XY Nation"), and that is a purely cultural term without any international legal meaning AFAIK. I wouldn't mind summarizing Australia's Civil unions entry as well if you prefer (though summarizing only long lists of states would also be "consistent"), I was only looking at the SSM section.

How could "19 states" wikilink to all 19 states at once? I'd be glad if one could do a pop-up window showing the list of wikilinked states, but I don't know how to do this (if it's possible). If we can't wikilink all the states, we must link to a list instead, as I did. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 15:35, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

You could wikilink to part of an article that actually has links for each states' articles. Prcc twenty-seven (talk) 23:39, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Also, the United Kingdom recognizes England, Wales, Scotland, etc. as countries (see Wikipedia articles) and they are more sovereign than Native American tribal nations (especially since evidently they are allowed to vote for their independence). Native American tribal nations are recognized by the United States as "domestic dependent nations." Prcc twenty-seven (talk) 00:51, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Coahuila

I don't know how the legislative process works in Mexican states, but according to this source, the law takes effect in one week. It is unclear whether the governor has signed it, nor if he even has to at all. In any case, he supports it (this source doesn't mention anything on a governor's signature). The state's Civil Code can be found here, which should be updated soon I suppose (for example, article 253 will be changed to "El matrimonio es la unión libre y con el pleno consentimiento de dos personas [...]"). SPQRobin (talk) 17:31, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, this is the law, entering into force on the day following publication in the state's official gazette (see September). SPQRobin (talk) 15:42, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Removing Clutter

I do not see any reason why we are listing the states that allow marriage state by state in the infobox rather than linking to the information already provided here: Same-sex marriage in the United States#States that license same-sex marriage. There are no states on the table that marriages are not yet in effect in and the SSM by state can be linked through the table as well, we already have a footer template with the information. Having all this info about the United States in the infobox also adds WP:UNDUE weight as a visual distraction. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:11, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

There are states with marriage not yet in effect, and it's important to list all the states because it links to their articles. This is already being discussed in one of the sections above. Prcc twenty-seven (talk) 00:40, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

@Prcc27: You are missing the point the states are clutter and weigh on the template WP:UNDUE the whole world isn't America you know. Which states are without marriage on the table? Under "Date effective" I see no states that aren't yet in effect. I count 24 states that currently have SSM legal as well as this being in the heading of the article: "Twenty-four states,[a] the District of Columbia, and ten Native American tribal jurisdictions[b] issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples" so where are you getting the "states with marriage not yet in effect"? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:17, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

There is not violation of WP:UNDUE because all countries are treated equally on this template. Any country with ssm or other unions legal only in certain jurisdictions have links to the sub-jurisdictions where it is legal. Yes, 24 states ISSUE marriage licenses but Colorado and Florida LEGALIZED same-sex marriage because Colorado is stayed and the AG said they will not defend the ban (and ordered every county to issue licenses to same-sex couples) and because Florida has a temporary stay. Don't remove FL/CO. And this discussion belongs in one of the sections above, not here. Prcc twenty-seven (talk) 01:24, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

if this discussion keeps popping up then it means im not the only one seeing a problem here, CO and FL then can always be listed separately they are two states, as for FL there is an ongoing discussion if FL even qualifies for SSM pending. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:26, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

There are also people who don't see a problem and see a problem with removing the links to individual states. I am unaware of a dispute about Florida. This discussion belongs here. Prcc twenty-seven (talk) 01:32, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

As I said the state links can easily be added to the table and we already have a footer in the form of a template. Template:Same-sex unions in the United States what is the benefit of linking the state articles here. Also if you want to combine this section with the other feel free. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:40, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Just to help keep clear where consensus lies: I felt it was too cluttered before, and that has only become worse with today's expansion (to be clear: this is the only manner in which I think today's changes made things worse.) I'd go with the state count and the link; if the list in SSM in the US is unsatisfactory, then we could link it directly to Template:Same-sex unions in the United States. (Yes, I know that linking into template space instead of article space is an odd move... but it just may be crazy enough to work!) --Nat Gertler (talk) 03:22, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Are we doing this with other countries too or just the United States? We have to be consistent, we can't just link all of the U.S.'s states into one but not do the same thing for other countries...

24 states

10 tribes

2 states^* (What page would this link to?)

I prefer the template link over the link that's been being used. However, I still oppose linking all of the states into one. Prcc twenty-seven (talk) 04:42, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I think that if any other country takes up at least three sublines, then yes, we should do similar shrinkage too. That is not currently the situation --Nat Gertler (talk) 05:03, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I think awhile ago someone suggested that if the number of states ever went over 25, instead of listing the states that allow it, switch over to those that don't. It would basically say same-sex marriage is legal in the United States with the exception of the listed states. That way the list would shrink rather than grow. I'm not sure if it would fit in with the rest of the template, but it's one possible option to reduce the clutter. It will soon be up to 30. Axelfar (talk) 04:58, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

It's not like there is limited space in the template. If we needed to free up space for something else more important it would be another matter, but we don't. Listing each state separately seems appropriate, since each state actually links to its own article. Rreagan007 (talk) 21:53, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Florida

There is a district court decision in Florida that has been stayed. This case has not yet gone to circuit court. We have not previously listed states under this circumstance. We need a circuit court ruling before we can list it. 76.105.127.56 (talk) 11:10, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

It's a temporary stay from a district court and we have listed states under this circumstance. Prcc twenty-seven (talk) 07:40, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Adoption

Since this Iist is about LGBT relationship recognition, shouldn't it also list the states, territories, and countries where lgbt adoption is recognized? Upside: Adoption is a significant step within a relationship and has the potential to be recognized or banned by a state/country/territory. Downside: The places on the template links to existing articles about the recognition within that governing land mass. The catch is that only the UK, the US, Brazil, and Europe (as a whole) have articles for it. Thoughts? Should we move forward with this?98.253.175.243 (talk) 21:59, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

So far, all the relationships concern only the same-sex couple themselves. Adoption by same-sex couples, while a relationship which concerns a same-sex couple in part, is entirely different from the spectrum of quasi-marriages provided presently. --krimin_killr21(talk) 23:13, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Estonia

Is Estonia's recently passed law, actual marriage for same sex couples or is it a civil partnership scheme? I only ask because some news sources seem to imply its a change to the nation's marriage laws. See here:
Estonia becomes first former Soviet state to legalise gay marriage (The Independent)
Estonia first ex-Soviet state to legalise gay marriage (BBC News)
Every other source makes no mention of it being a change to the country's marriage laws. Can anyone confirm? Jono52795 (talk) 14:51, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Apologies. Upon further reading of a multitude of other sources, it is clear this is a civil union law, giving same sex couples most of the rights as marriage. Rather surprising though that two reputable sources (BBC and the Independnet) would make such a blatant mistake in their reporting. Feel free to delete this section. Jono52795 (talk) 14:59, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Idaho

The situation is a bit vague (and certainly in flux) in the US at the moment. For me that's a reason to use the precautionary principle that was used in the past years on this template: until we know for sure it is legal or will be legal (in the sense of: actually practised), we shouldn't add; and I therefore have removed Idaho. It seems fully plausible that they will be (forced to) start issuing marriage licenses next week, but we simply don't know, so we shouldn't state we do (even with an asterisk saying it will happen later...). L.tak (talk) 12:13, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

But in the case of Idaho, the SCOTUS has effectively rejected the appeal making it clear that this WILL happen, it is just a matter of following procedure. That would seem to mean that we should indicate it with an asterisk. 50.167.191.11 (talk) 15:06, 11 October 2014 (UTC)