User talk:Jeffro77/Archive2014b

Current 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 2022 2023

Jan-Mar Apr-Jun Jul-Sep Oct-Dec

JW founder

Hi Jeffro, I'll be generous here and assume your latest comment at the JW talk page wasn't intended to sound the way it did. We have been able to work together well over the years despite the occasional disagreement, and I know we share the same goal of keeping the article informative, accurate and balanced. But I was taken aback by your comment that "I'll allow the article to remain technically incorrect." There's more than a trace of megalomania in that comment and it's not an attractive look. All these things are decided by consensus, not the whim of individual editors.

You may enjoy the "luxury" of knowing you're right (despite apparently being content with the previous wording for all the years you've been on Wikipedia); I concur with the bulk of authors who see an unbroken line since Russell's day, despite the often traumatic changes introduced by Rutherford after his rather dodgy accession to the throne. The WP:WEIGHT comment that Grrahnbahr raised is the key: even if you are convinced you are correct, the article has to rely on what most sources say. In that context, it's immaterial what you'll "allow" the article to say. BlackCab (talk) 00:51, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Just for the record, I disagree with the last two sentences of the above. The content has to agree with the reliable sources, and, in the case of disagreement, with the reliable sources which have displayed the greatest degree of competence in the relevant subject. So far as I can tell, that would be sources which deal with the JWs as an organization/corporation, not specifrically as what might broadly be described as a religious grouping. It is also probably the case that editors who have the greatest experience in dealing with content relating to organizations and corporations would be the most knowledgable about any technical meanings to specific terms which other individuals, like me, might not be privy to. I honestly don't know whether that would be the case here, but I don't know. Like I said elsewhere, those who know best the details of organizational and corporate content here would be in the best position to make a decision on such matters. John Carter (talk) 01:03, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I am completely open to an RfC. I am not open to individual editors declaring that they alone will choose what content stays or goes, regardless of their knowledge of a subject. BlackCab (talk) 01:20, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Sigh. All I meant by 'allow' is that I'm no longer interested in continuing the discussion as it did not seem to be going anywhere (which was prior to input from other editors). The humorous implication of authority was intended ironically.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:51, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

The claim that I was "apparently being content with the previous wording for all the years you've been on Wikipedia" does not mean that I agree with it. I stated so in the discussion from 2011 to which BlackCab linked in the current discussion at the JW article's Talk page. At the time I wasn't aware of specific sources that state as much about Rutherford, but a couple of those have since been indicated.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:00, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

A few concerns/questions here. One of these I address to both Jeffro77 and @BlackCab:. You both have done very good work on the JW material over the years, but, given the amount of time the two of you have spent in each other's at times seemingly sole company on many of these pages, I don't think it would be at all unreasonable for possible personal considerations to be perhaps involved here. The fact that you both seem to be primarily interested in the JWs could not unreasonably I think raise POV issues about both of you. I honestly do think that the best way to proceed with this would be through using the conflict resolution process, with, the possibility, if required, of going to binding mediation with additional less involved people taking part in the mediation who might be more neutral. As a second, less important, matter, are there any other BS groups which claim some form of uninterrupted descent from Russell's group? That might be worth knowing. Lastly, I personally really hate seeing the two of you arguing, knowing that, to a degree at any rate, it might make it harder for the two of you to work together in the future. Can either of you think of any specific things you might be able to work together on while this matter remains unresolved? I do think personally that there is a really good chance some sort of mediation might be called for ultimately, but, maybe, if there are any really good and useful public domain materials in .djvu format at archive.org or elsewhere that could be added to wikisource, it really only takes two people to take a document to a finished state document there. John Carter (talk) 15:27, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks John, but I don't think we're quite at the point where marriage counselling is required. Appreciate the thoughts though. If Jeffro wishes to take the founder issue to another forum, I'll repeat my few points there. BlackCab (TALK) 23:33, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

@BlackCab: Part of what I said is a real question regardless. I've actually proposed earlier today a WikiProject Religion for wikisource at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion. If either of you has any interest in such, I think there is a lot of very useful work that could be done there. And, FWIW, I've never been married, so I know nothing about that directly, but have sometimes seen similar at corporate retreats, although a lot of them involve paintball guns. John Carter (talk) 23:51, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks John for your concern. Firstly to your concerns of POV... I have no vested personal interest in regard to whether Russell is or is not considered the 'founder' of Jehovah's Witnesses, except that it just isn't accurate. I do not consider the beliefs of Russell to be any more or less rational than those of Jehovah's Witnesses. Secondly, as to your query about other Bible Student groups... there are indeed groups that have existed continually since Russell's time under the category of Associated Bible Students (a name that has been in use since 1914), which includes the Dawn Bible Students Association and various other groups of generally autonomous congregations that hold to Russell's beliefs and still publish his writings. Unfortunately, the small size of extant Bible Student movement groups means that there are not many sources specific to those groups. Editors such as User:Pastorrussell may know of additional sources specific to the Bible Students, including some that may relate to the current argument (however he appears not to have been active on Wikipedia for some time). Thirdly, to your concerns about continued interaction with BlackCab... I am quite able to compartmentalise this issue such that it will not be detrimental to unrelated discussions. Despite some unsavoury suggestions by BlackCab about "megalomania" and so forth, on the whole I understand his objections to the actual issue. That said, the argument could be resolved by either adding a note to a single parameter in an infobox, or simply removing the parameter, since the text of the articles in question is already fairly clear that Rutherford's group represents a considerable departure from the Bible Student movement.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:27, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Your revert

This discussion has been moved to Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses#National anthem
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Regarding your reverts on national anthem issue, it is not an isolated issue it went up to the Supreme Court of India and got much media attention and discussions within 1.23 billion Indian population. Moreover, it is true that JW's do not sing national anthem. The issue is also notable in Canada when JW's refused to sing the anthem. Therefore unless get a proper reply, I will revert your edit again and move this issue to the ANI. Thanks.--— Preceding unsigned comment added by Avinesh (talk • contribs) One case about one school in one country is an isolated incident, regardless of how much coverage the incident receives. (Beyond anecdotes in Watch Tower Society publications, singing of the national anthem in Canada does not seem to have received much attention in the courts.) It doesn't make it notable for the lead of the main article about JWs. It is already mentioned at the appropriate article. You're welcome to raise an ANI, but you're not likely to get much support.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:10, 13 July 2014 (UTC) Additionally, in the case you cite, the government (i.e. the court) sided with the JWs against the actions of the deputy school inspector. There is no indication that the case represented any sort of ongoing conflict with the government.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:22, 13 July 2014 (UTC) It is JW’s common practise as same as their other beliefs such as military, blood transfusion etc. If that was included in the main articles I cant understand the logic behind not including this issue which was highly sparked within India’s 1.23 billion population and went up to the Supreme Court of India and also published by JW YB-1988. Morevoer, it is true that JW’s do not sing national anthem, right? Avinesh  T  00:33, 13 July 2014 (UTC) Re-stating the population of India is just as irrelevant as when you said it the first time. The one case about three students in one school went to the Supreme Court, in which the government upheld Jehovah's Witnesses' rights to freedom of worship. The case doesn't represent 'conflict' with the government of India in any manner worthy of stating in the lead of the main JW article. The fact that the matter appeared in JW publications—which are quick to point out any 'opposition'—is unremarkable. The case is appropriately covered at Supreme Court cases involving Jehovah's Witnesses.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:40, 13 July 2014 (UTC) The fact that JWs do not sing national anthems is covered in the main article under Separateness. The practice is not in question, but one Supreme Court case about one school that was decided in favour of JWs does not constitute notable 'conflict with governments'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:48, 13 July 2014 (UTC)