Talk:Holodomor
This article is frightfully tendentious. Saying that the situation "was deliberately provoked by the government" absolves the Ukrainian kulaks, many of them Nazi sympathisers, of responsibility. In fact, it was they who provoked the government with their active and destructive resistance to the movement for collectivisation of agriculture. The claims of millions of dead people are Cold War propaganda of Nazi origin, grossly distorted and broadly absurd. Shorne 22:25, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
How come the kulaks could have been Nazi sympathisers in 1930??! Nazi movement got in power in 1933. Your post is pure nonsense. Cautious 22:36, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- So the Nazis didn't even exist until the day they came to power? Shorne 00:31, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Partially edited
I have revised part of the article for NPOV. Much work remains to be done before this article can be acceptable.
I wish to see citations of the Stalinist officials purported to have said that millions died. As far as I know, Stalin's government admitted no such thing. I shall be forced to delete the quotations if they are not attributed. Shorne 16:39, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Someone reverted an entire batch of changes, evidently without even looking at them, on the grounds that they were made by a "holocaust denier". This is nonsense. The page is hopelessly POV and inaccurate. Shorne 22:51, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I agree with you that the version User:Xed is reverting to is written from a strong POV, and the last paragraph of it definitely needs to be cited. Try to work a little more balance into your own version, though, and understand that Wikipedia has a characteristically low tolerance for leftist viewpoints that isn't always easy to overcome. For example, do you dispute that there was a famine at all (your version says "famine said to have occurred"), or just that it was as severe as often reported and that it was deliberately designed for political purposes? Everyking 12:35, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I think Everyking is right here. "Famine said to have occurred" is ridiculous - of course a famine occurred. On the other hand, the other version says straight out that the famine was deliberately manufactured by the government, which is not undisputed...someone who knows more about the historiography of this than me needs to have a look over of this. john k 15:12, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks to both of you for your very reasonable comments. In fact, I am not trying to deny the famine, or even to minimise it. My primary concern is that a grossly POV article that doesn't even pretend to present more than one side not be allowed to stand.
- I'm not deeply attached to "famine said to have occurred", and I agree that it may be slightly slanted towards a minority position. At a minimum, it seems like an overzealous attempt at NPOV. I will change it. "Holocaust", incidentally is similarly slanted; indeed, it is far worse. The word is heavily laden with Hitlerian associations, and its use in connexion with a famine seems to trivialise the Nazi holocaust.
- I can accept Everyking's point "that Wikipedia has a characteristically low tolerance for leftist viewpoints". All the more reason to ensure that such viewpoints are represented fairly. A low tolerance for leftist viewpoints means a tendency towards a rightist POV. Shorne 20:06, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Plagiarism
It turns out that the propaganda piece was plagiarised. Another testament to the integrity of our friendly neighbourhood propagandists. Shorne 00:33, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The title of this article is inappropriate. Firstly "Holodomor" is a Ukrainian word which means nothing to most readers. Wikipedia articles should have English titles wherever possible. In any case the famine was not confined to Ukraine, and the article should have a title which reflects its scope correctly. Really this subject should be discussed under History of the Soviet Union. If there is to be a separate article it should be called Soviet collectivization famine or something similar, and Holodomor should redirect to it. This is quite apart from the issue of the article's copyright status and the issues raised Shorne's absurd and disgraceful editing.
- I second the concern about the name. But the wider topic of the famine doesn't preclude a specific article about famine in Ukraine. By the way, "holodomor" is simply Ukrainian for "famine", and there is no compelling reason to put it as title. Mikkalai 08:06, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)