Talk:Sri Aurobindo

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sri Aurobindo/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Chiswick Chap (talk · contribs) 15:47, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Believe copyright is ok, hard to be sure as many sites use WP's text. Some issues remain (tagged). I've copy-edited the new text but the rapid editing risks causing further imbalance, as well as disrupting the style of text (and of references, which had been very tidy - not a GA issue, but the article isn't looking its best with references in so many recent styles).
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	Lead ok; layout ok; weasel ok; fiction n/a; list probably acceptable, though "Followers" could with benefit be rewritten as text (and it needs refs). Done. External links far too numerous, and appearing POV - either incorporate as refs or remove, one link to ashram should suffice. Done.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	Reference to Ken Wilber's works on Aurobindo are oblique rather than actual direct citations. This needs to be fixed. Influences section is not adequately cited. Answer: updated please have a look. This has fixed the immediate problem, but the coverage of Wilber and other critics remains very thin, not near GA status in this respect.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	There are uncited sections, eg Involution, Evolution, Brahman. Since these are questions of spiritual/religious belief they are open to challenge and must be cited. Answer : Have completely re-written and in summary way from the autobiographical source of Sri Aurobindo. Shrikanthv (talk) 21:58, 1 January 2013 (UTC) Done.
	2c. it contains no original research.	Broadly ok.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	Seems acceptably broad, covering expected topic areas. Not sure politics is covered broadly enough, e.g. influence of Vivekananda should be mentioned; indeed, the question of who and what influenced Aurobindo needs some coverage, there is no shortage of sources. Poetry is barely mentioned either. The whole topic of criticism of and reactions to Aurobindo, favourable or otherwise, is not treated - this applies to his politics, poetry and philosophy. Have added info , Vivekananda influence was very brief and have mentioned this regarding politics , he was influenced by French , Italian , American struggle over England Shrikanthv (talk) 15:02, 6 January 2013 (UTC) The direct influence perhaps, but the whole question of the cultural, political and philosophical influences remains almost wholly uncovered in the article, and this is a critical question for GA status.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	Focus is ok. Each area is concisely summarized.
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	The Influence section is too brief for a major figure like Aurobindo, and dissenting opinions (or interpretations, like Wilber's) need fuller exploration and citation. This remains a major issue for GA status; the article is now referenced, making it clear that most of it is either from Aurobindo's own writings or from his ashram, risking a breach of WP:NPOV. This must be balanced by a suitable coverage of other points of view, especially but not limited to the Influence section. It would be advisable to introduce a "Critiques" section also to give adequate coverage of other authors' views of Aurobindo and his philosophy. Answer : updated with citation. The progress that has been made makes it clear that much work remains to be done to achieve proper balance, rather than having a view "from inside". This will involve substantial knowledge of the literature about Aurobindo.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	no sign of it.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	Surat Congress image lacks author, copyright tag Answer : Have corrected the image details with new url source , (please note that picture is more than 100 years old and the author cannot be identified.) Done.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	ok.
	7. Overall assessment.	The hard work of the week on hold has fixed the immediate referencing issues, but has exposed the structural weakness of the article in describing mainly the Aurobindo story from within, with only marginal coverage of the influences on his politics and philosophy, and equally thin treatment of his position vis-a-vis the critics, favourable or otherwise, of politics, philosophy and poetry. Since it does not appear likely that this could be rectified if the article is held for another week or two, it will be best if it is worked on quietly by the community for a while, and brought back here perhaps in six months or so when ready.

I would not even bother to review it. The article is largely unsourced and it is impossible to fix it in a month or two. It is full of tags and in need of more. Thus, it is eligible for a quick fail. — Yash ^[talk] 14:22, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

If other people feel the same, we can do that. For now, I'm minded to wait a week and see if it's making realistic progress. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:46, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Section blanking

I have removed this section out of the article, think it does not belong to the biography page, and may be spams from organizations claiming lot of things, the insitution like ashram has already been stated. Do discuss if this is necessary here

Organisations and institutes

• Sri Aurobindo International Centre of Education, an integral part of the Ashram, serves as a field of experiment and research in education. For years Sri Aurobindo considered forming an Education Centre to prepare future humanity to manifest upon earth a divine consciousness and a divine life. To give a concrete shape to his vision, the Mother opened a school for children on 2 December 1943. In 1951, a Convention at Pondicherry resolved to establish an International University Centre in the town as a fitting memorial to Sri Aurobindo. Accordingly, the Sri Aurobindo International University Centre was inaugurated by the Mother on 6 January 1952. In 1959, the Mother renamed it "Sri Aurobindo International Centre of Education".

• Sri Aurobindo Centre for Advanced Research, located in Pondicherry, India, provides online advanced degree programmes (e.g., MA, M.Phil., and PhD) in Sri Aurobindo Studies. It works in collaboration with Indira Gandhi National Open University which grants the degrees. It also publishes books related to the thought and vision of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother, holds conferences, and sells CDs of talks by Ananda Reddy, its Director, on Sri Aurobindo's various major works.

• The Integral Life Foundation in Waterford, CT has published several books by Amal Kiran.

• Sri Aurobindo Society, founded by the Mother in 1960 (with her as its Executive President), is an international not-for-profit NGO, working for individual perfection, social transformation and human unity. It strives to bring change, empowerment, deeper values and excellence in various fields, including education, village development, sustainable development & renewable energy, health, management, youth, women, Indian culture, and media, films and television programmes, based on a spiritual foundation. The Society has been recognized by the Government of India as a Charitable Organization, a Research Institute, and an Institution of National Importance. The Society’s main administrative office is at Puducherry (formerly Pondicherry), India. It has members, centres and branches in all parts of India and abroad.

Shrikanthv (talk) 05:00, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Article move

From the above Talk:Sri Aurobindo/Archive 1#WP:HONORIFIC, it seems clear that we should move it from "Sri Aurobindo" to just "Aurobindo" or "Aurobindo Ghosh". Any comments before it is done? -Ugog Nizdast (talk) 08:41, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I think that the problem might be WP:COMMONNAME - some honorifics are just so common that they default. Any move would also have to consider Ghose rather than Ghosh. - Sitush (talk) 08:48, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, my typo. I think just "Aurobindo" is preferable, this was also the old title. Normal Google web search shows that "Sri" yields some more results but Google Books is the opposite; I think we can give preference to HONORIFIC over COMMONNAME for this case. Also, I was quite surprised at the result of this discussion: Talk:Agnivesh#Requested move. -Ugog Nizdast (talk) 09:50, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: This discussion is not following the formalities set by WP:RM. Just pointing it out. In case its just casual talk, carry on and ignore my comment. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 10:25, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. The article should not be moved. "Sri Aurobindo" was the name used to refer to Aurobindo. It is the name that Aurobindo used to refer to himself. It is what he went by.[1] — goethean 12:05, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Like Goethean and Sitush said, it is more about Common name than honorific. Bladesmulti (talk) 12:58, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

RE-work for GA

Again have started to re-work for GA , please discuss here before editing Shrikanthv (talk) 12:29, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sri Aurobindo/GA3. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Chiswick Chap (talk · contribs) 15:48, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Well-written, passes spot-checks for plagiarism.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	lead: ok; layout: ok; weasel: ok; fiction: n/a; lists: n/a
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
	2c. it contains no original research.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	Major aspects are properly addressed.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	Article is correctly focussed on the subject.
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	Tone is now fine after much work in past few years.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	Not sure about Aurobindo.family.jpg, please make sure it is properly tagged and dated on Commons. Other images are ok.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.	Article is now far more defensible, is encyclopedic in tone and content and thoroughly cited. It is a pleasure to see how far it has improved since the earlier GA attempts.

Comments

I'll take this on. An immediate comment which is not part of the GA review is that it would be possible to tidy up the references by moving books mentioned repeatedly to the list of cited sources. However this is not a GA requirement. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:48, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Can you suggest me to wikipage were i can learn this to do ? Shrikanthv (talk) 07:39, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

The easiest is probably just to study the article itself, where you can see how e.g. Heehs (2008) or McDermott (1994) are cited in "Citations" and fully listed in "Bibliography". You can just do the same thing for Aurobindo (1960), for instance.

This article has clearly met the GA criteria. These criteria do not include the tidying up of citations, which would be a desirable step as already mentioned, and essential if the article is to go further.

Additional work could be done on Sri Aurobindo's influence on other people and groups, and on the reception of his ideas; in these sections, the article currently "addresses the main aspects of the topic" but would with benefit be further developed to become "comprehensive".

For now I would like simply to congratulate all the editors involved for their hard work. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:13, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

@Chiswick Chap: I'm sorry but I think this needs to be delisted. I did a lot of work on the biographical bits some time ago but since then someone has introduced miscited material to those sections. In addition, and while I've fixed a lot of minor problems, I've found at least one instance of copyvio. It is also poor that an article that is so intertwined with a philosophy actually says almost nothing about that philosophy and how he came to derive it. It is the philosophical stuff that was always my stumbling block here: I simply do not understand what the man was trying to say and consider it to be gibberish. The source used doesn't help one bit and is arguably self-interested.

I know people have worked hard on this - including me - but it is not GA quality in my opinion, and it still needs a lot of work. - Sitush (talk) 10:40, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your many improvements. Indeed many editors have visibly put much hard work into the article; I am sorry to hear about the copyvio but am sure that alternatives can readily be found. However, we need to clearly distinguish our own attitudes to philosophies and what is said in an article. The man's life, work, influence and reception are clearly and adequately summarized here. Other people as described in the sources certainly found him important and influential. Whether we editors like the man's ideas, or even find them coherent, is not the article's problem. It is valid to use a source related to a subject to describe what the subject himself thought. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:53, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. My "gibberish" comment relates to my inability to correct the problems. It is not intended as a judgement on the philosophy. The section on the philosophy is indeed gibberish: I'm an intelligent bloke and I've done undergraduate courses on philosophy etc, so if I cannot make sense of it then the likelihood is high that the general reader cannot do so either. Add to that the miscitations, copyvio etc and we're far from GA. I'm not sure where to take this next but I'll read up on the delisting process when I've got a few minutes. I'm not blaming anyone here, by the way, merely explaining why it fails the criteria. And the criteria includes lucid prose. - Sitush (talk) 11:04, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. I remain convinced however that our task is limited to saying 'Aurobindo claimed X', whether the claim makes sense to us or not; and in an article on the man, we are not obliged to say much on the philosophy, so it may be best simply to cut it down. A removed copyvio should not be an obstacle either. I have edited the section on his philosophy; it is now short and frankly perfectly clear (that he believed in some kind of divine purpose to evolution, leading from matter to mind). On the citations, they are now not untidy; and the GA criteria explicitly exclude requirements for correct formatting: "Requiring consistently formatted, complete bibliographic citations. (If you are able to figure out what the source is, that's a good enough citation for GA.)" (What the GA criteria are not) Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:06, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Chiswick Chap IT's very saddening and devasting to see how is it a copyvio, still if you go through the 1st chapter of the book (that I have taken from ) if you directly qoute from it . it is a copy vio and if you interprit it, it is a synthesis of your own material. Philosophy is not Theoritical physics , I doubt any lucidity would ever be brought to it ( I do believe if you ever bring lucitdity to philosophy then it not any more philosophy but something else.) . but on a positive note I do accept it keeping the philo part chrisp, I will copy paste the philosopycall "gibberish" down here and if needed let us discuss why it is so Shrikanthv (talk) 12:45, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Chiswick Chap, you misunderstand me. I said "miscitation", not that the citation styles need fixing. My point was that we were citing a source (Heehs 2011) that not only didn't support the statement but didn't even have anywhere close to 347 pages, as the citation suggested. That, I am afraid, is very poor and it meant that I had to tag two bits at {{qn}}, using good faith that the intended source was the 2008 book rather than the 2011 paper. If you don't see that and the copyvio as a major problem then I am flabbergasted. This thing should never have been listed. - Sitush (talk) 14:26, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I see what you mean. Obviously these issues needed fixing. However from Shrikanthv's comments above, it is clear that as you say these things happened in good faith; the cv is already fixed and the faulty citation is readily fixable. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:59, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Everything is fixable if enough time and energy and sources can be found. That doesn't make it a GA. The idea is to fix the things before promotion, not after it. You'll note that I've now found still more problems, some of which I've fixed and others of which I've had to tag for now. I'm not blaming anyone but this thing is not a GA and should not have been listed as such. - Sitush (talk) 16:05, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Very true, but we are where we are. I've added quotes and citations where indicated. Also compared Wilber description with the source again; it seems a fair summary of what is said; I don't pretend to understand what Wilber actually means. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:01, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

We need not have been where we are if more care had been applied. Your recent changes do not help matters; in fact, at least one of them seems to be extremely misleading and another seems to indicate a surprising unfamiliarity with WP:RS. I could right now run up a website explaining how Bertrand Russell reacted to the thoughts of Rousseau and then expect it to appear in our Rousseau article pronto because, well, it is a website written by someone who names themselves and so it must be ok. Who is that person? What authority do they have? - Sitush (talk) 17:08, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Is the extended info for Heehs (2008) p. 347 intended to be a quotation from the source or what? I've just reformatted it but couldn't make my mind up. As said previously, I cannot see that page on GBooks. - Sitush (talk) 21:54, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

"Aurobindo was influenced by studies on rebellion and revolutions against England in medieval France and the revolts in America and Italy. In his public activities he favoured non-co-operation and passive resistance but in private he took up secret revolutionary activity as a preparation for open revolt, in case that the passive revolt failed." and a fair bit more from that source is far too closely paraphrased. I've no time to fix that at the moment but we're going to have to check every source because this sort of thing is common in India-related articles. - Sitush (talk) 22:10, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Finally got hold of the complete book online here is the link , please refer to respective pages if references needed to be checked And for me it seems right. I do also see a prejudice on what is common in "Indian" articles . if the facts needs to be stated how do you put into wiki other than summarising it call it para phrasing ?! please go through the actual para with the heading "Attitude towards violent revolution " and the lines in the article simply summaries the para (please note that this book is not a Autobiography, it was corrective notes given by Aurobindo himself on the claims from his biography writers)Shrikanthv (talk) 07:39, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

The Gibberesh

Please find below the philo part which needs to be worked on if this is a copy vio

" Aurobindo believed that the current concept of evolution merely describes a phenomenon and does not explain the reason behind it, while he finds that life to be already present in the matter. He argued that nature (which he interpreted as divine) has evolved life out of matter and then mind out of life, in other words that evolution had a purpose. He believed that matter has an impulse to become life, and that life has a similar impulse to become mind.[48] He stated that he found the task of understanding the nature of reality arduous and difficult to justify by immediate tangible results. He describes that the current will in humans to find nature of reality has been for him arduous, difficult to justify by immediate tangible results, slow in regulating its operations and has turned him against the secret working of nature which has made him to evade the effort of enquiry of its true meaning.

According to Aurobindo, the evolution being progressive manifestation by Nature has not come to end on earth and the man being the product of evolution has had impulses and goals of achieving God, Light, Freedom and immortality, this would lead to the next evolutionary stages in man. Aurobindo finds for man, the manifestation of the divine in himself and the realisation of God within and without are the highest and most legitimate aim possible to man upon earth. " Shrikanthv (talk) 13:05, 31 October 2014 (UTC)