Talk:Ninjutsu

I made a start tidying up the following paragraph, but I realised that I can't make much sense out of it.

Shin-Ninjitsu originated in Europe in 2003. It was conceived out of frustration with the authentic styles. Since some of the styles labeled as being controversial are more like what Ninjutsu would have looked like in the 16th century than many of the authentic styles who focus more on the hand to hand combat aspect of Ninjutsu. This is why the founders of Ryu-Ha Shin-Ninjitsu labeled their style a modern form of Ninjutsu. The title Shin is reserved for styles that don’t have a direct lineage to a Japanese Ryu either because they mixed several styles or because it’s a special forces system.

It's implied that Shin-Ninjitsu(sic) resembles 16th century ninjutsu more than the 'authentic' styles - but would that make Shin-Ninjutsu more authentic? From where do they get their description of what ninjutsu involved, and why specifically the 16th century? It would be good if someone could provide more information regarding this system, specifically:

Why the focus on 16th century historical ninjutsu, and the ambiguity around the word 'authentic'?

Is there a precedent for the use of 'Shin' in this context? Can it be provided?

The mention of 'special forces system' seems like a pointless description - could this be made more accurate?

SimonFr 10:39, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

With no further input, and for the reasons above, I have trimmed the section and hopefully made it fit with the rest of the article. SimonFr 16:34, 16 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should create an new article about Shin-Ninjutsu, in order to keep track of all non-traditional styles.--201.19.29.53 22:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It this someway related to the Neo-Ninja article? --Xymor 16:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Someone's just added a mention of the Bujinkan Brian Dojo, headed by Brian McCarthy. I would have said this wasn't a large enough group to be mentioned alongside the Jinenkan and Genbukan, as otherwise the list would include people like Ishizuka, too. I'm wary of removing the mention myself, as I'm aware I probably have a personal bias in this matter. What to do? SimonFr 09:39, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

_Bujinkan_ Brian Dojo - the name is clearly intended to communicate association with the Bujinkan. As such, it needs to go to a new heading, or move to the Bujinkan article. Paleorthid 16:05, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've removed the mention of the BBD from this article, and will look into a list of similar Bujinkan splinter groups to add to the Bujinkan page. SimonFr 16:11, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ehm, I'm not sure if I should post this up top or at the bottom... Anyways, I was looking thorugh the history and found some stuff typed in a foreign language. If anyone understands this stuff, could you give us a brief translated summary? Then the ppl who know more can decide whether or not we should keep it.

== Nukenin-Ryu == - Os conceitos fundamentais da Nukenin-Ryu, são embasados em algumas escolas tradicionais de ninjutsu, notadamente no estilo pessoal desenvolvido por Goemon Ishikawa. Trata-se de um estilo forte e muito eficiente, baseado nas artes de guerra japonesas. No entanto o mundo gira, o tempo passa e a evolução deve ser um processo contínuo em nossa vida, com isso em mente Shihan Claudio Muniz decidiu remodelar a arte da Gouki-Nankai e trazê-la a luz do mundo, dando oportunidade a todos que desejam aprender uma arte marcial eficiente e completa. - Mas por que criar um novo método de arte marcial? Alguns devem estar se perguntando. O principal motivo foi modernizar treinamentos, exercícios e técnicas tidas, pelo Shihan, como ineficientes. Outro motivo foram as divergências de opinião entre - os praticantes da Associação Gouki-Nankai, alguns desejavam manter a arte em segredo, outros queriam manter os métodos tradicionais, mas era unânime que a arte devia mudar de nome, abandonando o termo Gouki-Nankai e assumindo um outro. O impasse - levou a dissolução oficial do grupo, e o mestre Claudio Muniz decidiu prosseguir com a Gouki-Nankai tornando-a uma associação e re-organizando as graduações e formas gerando um novo sistema de luta, mas mantenho os Taos e Ryu-Keikos (formas e - exercícios marciais) originais. - - - ---- - Mais de 30 Estilos - - O sistema de graduação segue o mesmo padrão do utilizado no Ansatsu, mas possui mais graduações, representando as técnicas e disciplinas que integram o Nukenin-Ryu. As três primeiras graduações (faixas branca) têm o objetivo de preparar fisicamente o praticante, com aprimoramento de técnicas e golpes básicos. - Mas as principais técnicas, chamadas de Disciplinas (kyoogi), são iniciadas na faixa azul. Essas Disciplinas são conhecidas vulgarmente como “estilos” por representarem, em alguns casos, grupos de técnicas que poderiam ser ensinadas como artes completas ou mesmo estilos externos. Com isso podemos afirmar que o Nukenin-Ryu concederá a seus praticantes proficiência em mais de 30 estilos. Também existe a hierarquia monástica, que representa o nível geral do praticante e sua importância dentro do clã, está hierarquia era utilizada pelos membros do clã em tempos remotos, são elas: - - Genin: São os Iniciantes da faixa branca até azul. - Chunin: Avançado; indo da faixa verde até a preta com 3 pontas brancas. - Jonin: Da preta com 4 pontas brancas em diante. - - As Disciplinas iniciadas na faixa azul são compostas por treinamentos para desenvolver habilidades especificas e, além disso, possuem entre 6 e 20 Taos (caminhos) obrigatórios – algumas artes marcais as chamam de katas ou mesmo katis – complexos que fornecerão os conhecimentos e habilidades para dominar o Kyoogi (Disciplina) em questão. - - Apesar de nosso sistema ser composto por mais de 30 Kyoogi, apenas 11 destas disciplinas são obrigatórias, quando o praticante passar do nível GOUKI poderá escolher qual Kyoogi deseja aprender, fazendo assim sua própria seqüência de aprendizagem. - - - Links - www.ronnin.com.br/goukinankai

This is brazilian portuguese, here's a translation:

Nukenin-Ryu- The fundamental concepts of Nukenin-Ryu, are derived from some traditional ninjutsu schools, specially the personal style developed by Goemon Ishikawa. It's about a strong and efficient style, based on the japanese war arts. However as the world spins, time goes by and evolution must an on going process in our lives, with this in mind Shihan Claudio Muniz decided to remodel a Gouki-Nankai art and bring it to light, offering opportunity to all who wish to learn a complete and efficient martial art. - But why create a new martial art method? Some should be asking. The main reason was to modenizee the pratice, excercises and thecniques believed, by Shihan, as inefficient. Another reason were the divergence of opinions beteen the practitioners of the Gouko-Nankai Assossiation, some wish to keep the art secrecy, while others wanted to keep the tradicional methods, but it was believed among all that the art should change its name, leaving behind the term Gouki-Nankai and taking another. The deadlock - caused the official end of the group, and master Claudio Miniz decided to pursue with Gouki-Nankai making it an assotiation and re-organizing he graduations and forms creating a new fighting system, but keeping the originals Taos and Ryu-Keikos. More than 30 styles The graduation system follow the same pattern used by Ansatsu, but has more graduations, representing the techniques that integrate the Nukenin-Ryu. The frist three graduations(white belts) should prepare fisically the practitioner, with improvements and basic moves. - But the main techniques, called Kyoogi, begin in the blue belt. These Kyoogi are widely known as styles for representing, in some cases, groups of techniques that could be thaught as complete martial arts or even external styles. With this we can indicate that Nukenin-Ryu will concede its practitioners more than 30 styles. There's also the monastic hierarchy, that represents the new geral practitioner and its importancy within the clan, this hierachy was used by the clan members in remote times, are: -- Genin: from white to blue -- Chuunin: green to black with 3 white edges -- Jonin: from Black with 4 white edges an on. The Kyoogi stared in the blue belt, are composed by trainment to develop specifical skills and, besides this, have between 6 adn 20 mandatory Taos -- some martial arts call them katas or Katis - structures that provide knowledge and skills to master the mentioned Kyoogi. -- Spite of the 30 Kyoogi, only 11 are mandatory, when the practitioner passes the Gouki level, he can choose which Kyoogi he wishes to learn, making his own learing sequence --- Links...

It seens it's one of those modern new styles Xymor 16:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Other Schools: There are many frauds out there claiming to teach Ninjutsu, the only legitimate schools are the ones listed in the previous paragraph." -- the sort of claim that greatly benefits from documentation.

203.45.155.14 made a bit of a mess here by deleting just about everything except links to sub-disciplines such as Taijutsu. Deleting content is not acceptable - I've reverted the original article. If Ninjutsu is just a collection of subdisciplines, it's still okay to have descriptions of those subdisciplines here, as well as a discussion of the overall field. No need to go deleting everything! -- Tim Starling

He's done something similar again. If you have some problem with the contents of the page, anonymous user, then please say what the problem is here - if you simply remove content, it will likely be put back. --Camembert

Mr Starling, Camembert (My favourite cheese by the way); I was deleting information that was misleading- 'no info' is better than 'false info'. Did either of you write those articles? I don't mean to offend anyone. Why don't you contact Don Roley (If you know anything about "Ninjutsu" you should be able to make contact) or any other history expert that has researched "Ninjutsu history, or you could contact Unsui Manaka (Again, I'm not going to give their personal info) and ask for his input. The fact is: Ninjutsu per se is not really taught anymore, anywhere; Ninjutsu is not a 'fighting art', the Ninja were spies, if they were recognised in the first place- well they lost. -- Simmmmm

If you aren't willing to give out contact details perhaps you should invite them to have a look at these pages themselves in order to correct them.

There have been several Bujinkan members who looked over this page and said everything was just fine. What's the problem here? What is not accurate? We are all well aware Ninjutsu is more than a fighting art. There is no need to go destroying the Ninjutsu section over one minor piece of wording. --Sojobo

Simmmmm- Have a look at Togakure Ryu, I'll add to the other ryuha pages when I get time. Ninjutsu is not a fighting art. Most Bujinkan members know almost nothing about Ninjutsu anyway, since it hasn't really been taught (bar a few stealth walking techniques). There is no need to make any mention of Ninjutsu in the Taijutsu article, it is misleading. As for the Ninjutsu article, if you un-protect it, all that I'll change are the first three paragraphs (They are incorrect), I won't delete anything else.

Hi Simmmmm - I've unprotected the page now. A couple of tips: if something is simply untrue, but widely believed to be true, it can sometimes be useful to say in the article something like: "It is commonly believed that X. However, this is not the case..." and so on. Of course, we don't want to present falsehoods as fact, but explicitly debunking common myths is very useful. And if you are going to make big deletions, then it's good to say why you're doing it on the talk page. By the way, I like the look of your last edit on Taijutsu, and Togakure Ryu looks good as well. --Camembert

I don't know much about it, but shouldn't something be said about its association with Japan, and possibly China and/or other areas? Just how old is it; surely someone can estimate at least within a century or two, if no exact date for something like this is available. Wesley

Simmmmm - I'm glad you've finally come to the table. You said "I was deleting information that was misleading- 'no info' is better than 'false info'". That's not how it works here, as you've discovered. Wikipedians are quite hostile to deletion of information - you can't expect to get away with it. Tim Starling

As you can see, I have added to the Ninjutsu and Ninja pages; when I have time I'll submit some more articles. The original articles were written by someone with the username 'Eco' I think. 'Eco' has caused trouble elsewhere (On other 'Wikipedia' articles, and on other forums); he was deleting my information also. Why did all of you gang up on me? It should also be noted, 'Eco' (Real name: Tony Fucilla) has no training in any of the schools related to Ninjutsu, he has only read books written by people with no training in Ninjutsu (Probably got some info off of the 'net' too), he was thinking of joining the 'Temple of the Full Autumn Moon'. No hard feelings! My gripe is with 'Eco' not any of you.
- Mr Starling and Camembert... Just out of curiosity: Do you have any experience in any of the X-kan?
- Mr Starling... Physics is one of my favourite disciplines. Why did you choose to study Physics? What is your favourite sub-discipline of Physics?
  - I'll put my answer on Simmmmm's user talk page. Tim Starling

No, I have no X-kan experience, and I'm not very knowledgeable about this whole area - I just stuck my nose in here because I could see quite a bit of stuff was being deleted without explanation, and I was worried that it was a vandal just messing things up for fun - it's now clear that you're not a vandal, but as I say, it's usually good to explain why you're making deletions when you make them. Anyway, apologies if it seemed we were ganging up on you - we were just concerned about the disppearing content - as you say, no hard feelings. Cheers --Camembert

No worries. If you anyone is interested in Ninjutsu, have a look at Talk:Togakure Ryu for information on how to obtain a reference of every formal technique of Togakure Ryu. I don't know if this will be available to the public, but the photographs on the link given (The link on Talk:Togakure Ryu) are good anyway. - Simmmmm (If anyone is interested, I'll post a couple of Ninjutsu techniques, and some techniques from the other ryuha.
- I have submitted the following articles : Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, and Kukishin Ryu; please read them and tell me what you think, the Kukishin Ryu is my favourite. If there are any other articles you would like to see, please make a request. Tommorow I will write an article on Bajutsu (Horsemanship), I'll include descriptions of techniques too. I appreciate it when I get feedback.

As you can see, I have added to the Ninjutsu and Ninja pages; when I have time I'll submit some more articles. The original articles were written by someone with the username 'Eco' I think. 'Eco' has caused trouble elsewhere (On other 'Wikipedia' articles, and on other forums); he was deleting my information also. Why did all of you gang up on me? It should also be noted, 'Eco' (Real name: Tony Fucilla) has no training in any of the schools related to Ninjutsu, he has only read books written by people with no training in Ninjutsu (Probably got some info off of the 'net' too), he was thinking of joining the 'Temple of the Full Autumn Moon'. No hard feelings! My gripe is with 'Eco' not any of you.

Uhhhhhh, it seems we have a problem here. First off, my "real name" isn't Tony. I know a few guys named Tony -- none of them with the last name FUCILLA. I have one friend whose name is Tony, and he's been known to use my computer but I don't think he has much interest in martial arts. I know he tried a few different dojos around here, but he's mostly into selling drugs and beating people up. In fact last time he used my computer he somehow managed to break Scan Disk (how the hell do you break scan disk???). Lets see, other than that, there's about 3 people who I share my computer with (none of them named Tony). I think one is only remotely interested in getting into the Martial Arts. The other is here on Wikipedia, he uses my comp (Sojobo). He edited up the Ninjutsu article under my name a few times before he got his own.

I hang out on all of about 2 forums, not including Wikipedia. Sounds like a case of mistaken identity. Oh yeah, and second thing is that I AM a student at the Temple of the Full Autumn Moon but I believe it's best to keep a low profile. I, more or less, wrote the original Ninjutsu article out of boredom. I now realize I shouldn't have included TFAM when making that article. I shouldn't have done anything to the martial arts page at all, really. I hate MA politics! You are right on one thing though, most of knowledge comes from a rather extensive library of books on various styles -- where do you get your info from? The only thing I have taken from the net is a few things from Bujinkan websites.

My primary interest on Wikipedia is the Soviet history section. I think I'll stay there and possibly monitor the people using my computer.

Kill the imposter!
-- (the real) Eco

I was thinking about this. First off, anyone who wants to delete any reference to TFAM on Wikipedia, go ahead. I shouldn't have just gone and put it up, so do whatever you will with it (outside of making false accusations against it).

Oh yeah, could someone tell me where this person "hangs out?" I found McDojo.com and E-Budo on my history list but it was long after a few friends had their way with my precious internet. =\

--Eco

I'm just shocked that there's absolutely no mention of assassination, when everyone knows that contract killing (in addition to stealth) practically defined ninja - as spying defined shinobi. Can someone add that to the first paragraph? We learn several covert assassination techniques but I'm not so sure what I should include in the article. Suffice it to say that ninja could be very much more "hands-on" than simple spies. - "Nocturnal" (sorry, not registered yet since I rarely edit anything myself.)

Quite right. They are associated with political assassination by reputation at least, even if they are not likely to be actively assassinating people today. I have added a mention of this to the page, and tried to be npov about it. Fire Star 14:53, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

  Perfectly NPOV, and good distinction between reputation and reality. Thanks! - Nocturnal

Perhaps some mention could be made about the influence on the historical ninja of esoteric religious philosophies, such the "rat demon scroll" story and maybe Shingon? Fire Star 14:57, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Regarding the new contributions, who exactly are Jack Hoban, Ronald Duncan, Joseph Versocki, or Dan McEaddy? I've never heard the names. Meelar 05:30, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Jack Hoban rings a vague bell. I think I've seen adverts for ninjutsu products in Black Belt magazine. A Google search turns up the table of contents of this magazine, in which he has written an article (page 40). -- Cyan 05:34, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, just wanted to make sure these were valid. That's it for the night, then; stick a fork in me, I'm done. Meelar 05:43, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself!

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art

Marial arts category for Wikipedians

A new category for those interested in martial arts has been created at Category:Wikipedians_interested_in_martial_arts. To add yourself, simply copy the following code to the bottom of your own user page:

[[Category:Wikipedians interested in martial arts|{{subst:PAGENAME}}]]

Shawnc 11:44, 15 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Terminology, possibly OT

Does ninjutsu use thee same terms as karate for punches and kicks. If not,what is the terminology for different moves. Batzarrö

Sort of. There are still Japanese words being used, so when coming from Shotokan to the Bujinkan, I could recognise bits of it, but the names of specific things aren't quite the same. For example, karate has 'gyaku tsuki' (reverse lunge/thrust) as a rear hand punch, and you meet those words in Ninjutsu - 'Omote Gyaku' as an 'outside reverse' lock, and 'tsuki' as a thrust or stab, commonly with a weapon. Punching in ninjutsu is not done in the same style as karate, however, and it's not referred to as a tsuki. The biggest change of meaning for me was learning that 'uke' (as in age uke, uchi uke, and other blocks) does not mean 'block', but 'receive', and is used to mean receiving the technique, both in terms of blocking (but again, a different type of blocking to karate) and as a person receiving the technique of someone who is practicing. Hope this helps. SimonFr 11:35, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Similarities with Journey to the West

Many of the jutsus described here and in the Naruto article have great similarities compared to those described in the Journey to the West novel about the monkey king. The ability to transform and/or disappear into the earth etc. are incredible in either case. However are these fictional skills related to the real ninjutsu? They are so similar that it is hard to believe the ninjutsu was not influenced by these mythical Chinese skills (奇門遁甲). Kowloonese 22:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]