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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 109.158.8.201 (talk) at 12:32, 29 December 2014 (→Mechanisms (or biology) of disease?: reply to A1candidate and suggest). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Medical Group Visits

Dear medical experts: There are a lot of citations attached to the this old AfC draft. Is this a notable topic? Should the page be kept and improved? It's about to be deleted as stale. —Anne Delong (talk) 23:25, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like a mess. Anne Delong, I really want to thank you for all the work you do in notifying us of AFCs; because of your notifications, I've sometimes found an AFC worth working on, but this one isn't. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Something about this concept should be merged into (or created afresh for) Doctor's visit. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to you both. I will leave the draft alone. If anything is to be added to another article it will take someone with more medical expertise than I. —Anne Delong (talk) 23:34, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lists of side effects

Many of our drug articles (and the psychiatric drug articles in particular) feature extremely detailed lists of "Side effects", in with subheadings estimating incidence in ranges of ">10%", "1 to 10%", etc, in some cases going all the way down to "0.01% to 0.1%". Unfortunately, these listings are extremely misleading, as the terms "side effects" and "adverse effects" are used throughout to describe what are actually adverse events. In the case of bupropion for example we have the following rates quoted for the drug. I've added the rates seen in the placebo arm of the clinical trials below, these rates are NOT shown in the article.

Adverse Event Buproprion Incidence (at 300 mg standard dose) Placebo Incidence Description in article
Headache 25% 23% Adverse effect with incidence >10%
Asthenia 2% 2% Adverse effect with incidence 1-10%
Alopecia "rare" not stated Adverse effect with incidence 1-10%
Concentration difficulties Not mentioned in pkg insert Not mentioned in pkg insert Adverse effect with incidence 1-10%
Depression No rate mentioned in pkg insert Not mentioned in pkg insert Adverse effect with incidence 1-10%
Uticaria ("indicative of hypersensitivity reaction" incidence not mentioned in pkg insert Not mentioned in pkg insert Adverse effect with incidence 1-10%

In addition, we list about 50 "adverse effects" with an incidence of 0.01 to 0.1%. a rate of 0.01% is one per 10,000, which would not normally be seen in a development program of about 3000 patients, so these are presumably all from spontaneous reports, and of unknown causation. They are "adverse events" and not "adverse effects"

I'm not quite sure what to do about these. Given the large and active anti-psychiatry group on Wikipedia, I'm suspicous that we have these very large (and apparently partly fictitious) lists of "adverse effects" that seem to be selectively added to psychiatry drug articles. I was going to rename "adverse effects" as adverse events, but I'm not sure how to phrase that for the average reader. And I suspect it will be a tremendous amount of work to go through each list and weed out the fictious entries.

Any thoughts.

Formerly 98 (talk) 16:01, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Formerly 98 I have worried about this for a long time. We run a real risk of Wikipedia articles interfering directly with someone receiving the most appropriate treatment for a disabling condition (somatic or psychiatric). My view has been that we should only discuss common side effects, or rare ones that are significant (e.g. agranulocytosis in clozapine use). Ideally we should have a secondary source if we claim that "myalgia was common in people on statin X, but not more common than in the placebo arm".
Should we discuss this on WT:MEDMOS, in consultation with WP:PHARM? JFW | T@lk 20:30, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Listing any other than major adverse effects has the potential to be complex. It's not just the drugs: it's how they're given, what formulation, to which patient group, for which condition. No-one is going to argue when we say that frusemide can cause hypokalemia any day of the week, but old amphoteracin B had a horrible adverse effect profile compared to the newer liposomal form in more common use nowadays. Too much detail will tend to date articles rapidly, with a significant maintenance burden, and is hardly the place of a general encyclopedia in any case. Where do we draw the line though? Basie (talk) 00:12, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
thanks for your interest. I don't know all the ropes here, so will follow your advice if you have specific ideas on how to proceed. I've also initiated an article-specific discussion on the bupropion talk page for dealing with that particular article. Formerly 98 (talk) 20:34, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Bluerasberry Could this also be something we could move off to Wikidata? -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 20:48, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
CFCF If we had good data for this then it could go into Wikidata; my expectation here is that we will almost never have good data. Even with thousands of participants in any given clinical trial the side effect percentages are going to vary. The usual note differences are male and female but Chinese versus European differences come up a lot too, and are significant. If someone finds an excellent dataset then we can talk about putting that on Wikidata as a test case; I am not sure what set of data ought to be the test case and probably for this we need input from an expert.
This kind of data should not be in Wikipedia at all. We have practices to not talk about doses, give primary data which needs interpretation, or import large datasets. I am still in favor of listing subjective side effects which are reported in secondary sources in both Wikipedia and Wikidata, but we are not prepared in any Wikimedia project to start collecting objective data of this sort. Blue Rasberry (talk) 02:43, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

New introduction for South Beach Diet

Hello again, all. I have been working on making updates to the 'South Beach Diet article along with several regular editors of this WikiProject. It has been an ongoing process since August, with many lengthy discussions on the Talk page. I believe we've made progress, but there are still several outstanding issues, including updating the introduction paragraph. I just proposed new text which addresses the critiques made of my last draft and I am hoping to find editors here to review it. I should note that I do not make direct edits myself as I have a financial COI, and instead ask other editors to provide feedback on my proposed changes and make any edits as they see fit, or offer counter suggestions. Thanks in advance, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 02:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Help with starting new Wikiproject

I am trying to get this assess table to work Wikipedia:WikiProject_Sanitation#How_to_help. Does anyone know how to fix it? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:04, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Have you tagged any articles yet? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:32, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes a few including pit toilet Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:43, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm wondering if the problem is your cat names: you have Category:C-Class sanitation articles, and it expects Category:C-Class Sanitation articles. (Cats can be moved now, or the template docs tell you how to specify a "non-standard" cat name.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:43, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay have moved them. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 10:55, 25 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks has worked. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:07, 25 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Might want to look around and sub cats. Many bear on water management, water disinfection, etc. LeadSongDog come howl! 05:54, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Monkey Christmas everyone!

...including the great emergency response team :)) 109.158.8.201 (talk) 12:33, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wow!--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 19:15, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments about sourcing and paraphasing

here if people have a moment. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:09, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Caps

How do we capitalize a title like this Gleason Grading System?Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:47, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Gleason grading system, per PMID 2458582, etc 109.158.8.201 (talk) 02:04, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:44, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Depictions of the Black Death

Hello everyone,

I'm looking for some help making sure that this image is used correctly across various Wikipedias. An academic article in The Medieval Globe has pointed out that the image has often been used to illustrate the Bubonic Plague (the Black Death), but that in fact it represents leprosy.

As things currently stand, User:Rmhermen has very helpfully removed the image from the English Wikipedia, and a few other languages. However, even excluding use in user boxes (en.wp) and as decoration in categories (fr.wp), the file has pretty wide usage in other languages. Is there anyone who would be able to help with one of the languages where the image is still used? Replacing the image is simple enough, but explaining why if someone objects (or leaving a short explanation on the relevant talk pages) would make the changes more likely to stick.

Because it helps to have an alternative image to make sure the Omne Bonum illustration isn't reintroducing by a well-meaning editor, here is one. I've been in touch with one of the authors of the paper and depictions of the Black Death online aren't easy to come by.

The article explaining the misinterpretations is available as an open access PDF here. Page 312 is particularly worth a read. The great thing about the article being open access is that we can see it and act on it quickly. Because Wikipedia is the first port of call for many people, it's important we do our best for our readers. Any help replacing this image would be very much appreciated. Nev1 (talk) 00:19, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Looks like it has been cleaned up. Drop us a note if you need further comments. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:58, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
How fascinating. I see the image is an illuminated initial letter from a medieval encyclopedia article. I propose that Wikipedia should adopt this practice and that medical articles could be used to set a good example. Thincat (talk) 11:19, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Caffeine used to treat asthma

Discussion here Talk:Caffeine#Asthma Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:46, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Radiation from smart meters

Editors might wish to use material from this report.

—Wavelength (talk) 02:15, 25 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

At the risk of sounding boring, a case series is a (very) primary source, and certainly not medrs. (Thank you though for indirectly pointing out the need for some tlc on the Case series page.) Cheers, 109.158.8.201 (talk) 10:45, 25 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Dr. Rana

Dear medical experts: I have been looking for references to improve this old AfC draft about a medical specialist, but without much luck. Maybe I don't know where to look. Is this a notable person? —Anne Delong (talk) 04:46, 25 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • I doubt it. His h-index is only 5 according to Google Scholar, and while he is the editor in chief of the Journal of Parkinsonism and Restless Legs Syndrome, this journal doesn't appear to be "major" enough to meet WP:PROF. Everymorning talk 00:46, 26 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Everymorning. It has now been deleted as a stale draft. —Anne Delong (talk) 02:59, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Further comment on WP:Wikicredit

Is requested here [1] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:12, 25 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is about Wikipedia:Wikicredit#Byline_changes. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:06, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Pharmacological torture

Seeking input to the discussion on the article talk page for Pharmacological torture. In particular,

1. Whether reliable sources support characterizing the administration of the antimalarial drug mefloquine to prisoners from malaria endemic countries at normal therapeutic doses, but without prior testing for infection, as a form of torture

2. Whether MEDRS-compliant sourcing would be needed for such a characterization.

In passing I'd like to note the Mefloquine article may not be a particularly reliable source for information about the drug. I've noted that in at least once place that a source document has been misquoted in a way that significantly changes the meaning of the quote. So the entire article probably needs to be checked to ensure that the statements actually reflect what is in the source (sigh).

Thanks Formerly 98 (talk) 15:33, 26 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

From what I hear, treating symptomatic people for malaria, in malaria-endemic countries, without testing for infection is called "normal practice". The fact that people take anti-malarials when they actually have (for example) influenza is one of the reasons that anti-malarials are losing efficacy. "Treating prisoners exactly like non-prisoners" (in this case, treating probable but unconfirmed malaria without testing for the presence of the malaria parasite) is not normally considered any kind of problem, much less torture. (Refusing to allow a prisoner to refuse consent for normal medical treatment would be a violation of medical ethics, but still not "torture".)
You don't need a MEDRS-style source for this label. "We call this torture" is not biomedical information. It is socio-legal information. You would want a really good source to prove that this is WP:DUE (i.e., that more than one person/activist organization claims that this is torture), and unless the view is widely held (which I doubt), you will need to use WP:INTEXT attribution to indicate who holds this position. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:30, 26 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Bauer, the hyoscine-pentothal will make you talk! JFW | T@lk 22:13, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
JFW what are you talking about? Mbcap (talk) 16:40, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Mbcap Cultural reference. From 24 (TV series). JFW | T@lk 20:44, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Mechanisms (or biology) of disease?

I've drafted a MEDMOS proposal (permalink) regarding one of our section headings. I realize that the timing of this proposal may seem a bit perverse following the recent heading change. I'd just like to reassure everyone here that I have no particular axe to grind and I'm not trying to "push through" anything. I just feel that terminological appropriateness is relevant to the encyclopedia, and needn't necessarily conflict with accessibility considerations. 109.158.8.201 (talk) 12:30, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"biological mechanisms"[2] ?--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:19, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Pathophysiology is the only correct term for this. I know we would like to simplify technical terms for readers, but this cannot be done at the expense of factual accuracy. -A1candidate (talk)
Sure, appropriate use of terminology is important (imo, at least...). But so is effective communication with our general readership, including accessibility considerations. If we scare off certain highly relevant categories of reader (eg patients and those close to them), then in some ways we hinder rather than help provide reliable information freely to all. Research is being conducted by HenryScow and others on what members of the general public actually do when they come to "read" these pages. I can't help wondering to what extent lay readers actually get to or get our information on disease mechanisms (even the admirably succinct Lung cancer section). Could there be a rationale for directing interested readers to separate sub-pages along with carefully crafted lay-friendly explanations of topics such as carcinogenesis (without the "blebbishield" level of detail), while providing on the parent page only information that is reasonably[?] digestible to a sizable portion at least of the lay reading public? Perhaps such an approach (per WP:SUMMARY) might ultimately also facilitate encyclopedic expansion of non-clinical content? 109.158.8.201 (talk) 12:32, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox Templates is Missing a Template

Hi, I think that infobox templates should include one for Cosmetic Procedures. This is for procedures such as male circumcision and plastic surgery. Many pediatric organizations in the world think that male circumcision has no medical benefit, so the procedure (in these regions ) would be primarily cosmetic or religious. I think that cosmetic would be the best word here.

I work primarily on the male circumcision page. Based on the information I have obtained I have learned that this procedure has varying medical benefit dependent on which country you are observing. For some nations it does have a benefit, for others it is insignificant. It would help if we had an infobox for cosmetic on the infoboxes page. This would better help represent the procedure on the page for male circumcision. I also think that having a cosmetic infobox would help the overall medical literature on Wikipedia. There are medical practices, such as plastic surgery, that are performed by medical professionals for primarily cosmetic reasons.

JohnP 19:20, 28 December 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnPRsrcher (talk • contribs)

JohnPRsrcher We should use the infobox for surgical procedures without giving the suggestion that it is cosmetic or therapeutic. Infoboxes are meant to be WP:NPOV, and your suggestion runs the real risk of getting a whopping edit war over an infobox. JFW | T@lk 20:46, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. But this is neutral, because many circumcisions would be classified as cosmetic by country's major pediatric organization's policy guidelines, while others are therapeutic in the case of medical interventions or if the country finds circumcision to be a cost effective intervention to prevent certain diseases. This is supported by the policy statements regarding circumcision from most of the world's organizations. In the US, neonatal circumcision may still be defined as therapeutic because circumcision is a cost effective procedure for reducing some diseases; however, this is not the same in Canada, Australia, the Netherlands, or Britain. We need to have an infobox labeled cosmetic so that the procedure is labeled as both a cosmetic procedure and intervention. This is due to the fact that it can be either of these things in different cases.

This would be neutral since the policy guidelines in Australia, the Netherlands, Britain, and Canada have already labeled infant circumcision in the most cases as cosmetic; so the procedure is already both cosmetic and therapeutic and as a result we should label it as such.

JohnP 02:15, 29 December 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnPRsrcher (talk • contribs)

JohnP, are you aware that readers don't see the name of the infobox? Calling it "Infobox cosmetic surgery" is just as invisible to them as calling it "Infobox stupid idea" or "Infobox 2409".
The more important problem is that we don't actually want to have two separate infoboxes that contain the same list of parameters. "Infobox something" and "Infobox copy of something because I don't like the name" is inefficient and causes maintenance problems. It's so widely agreed to be a bad idea that it is one of the very few grounds for speedy deletion of a template (WP:T3).
Finally, this has the potential to cause pointless drama and edit wars at the many articles about procedures that are used both for cosmetic and for non-cosmetic purposes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:08, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To the first argument. Yes I am aware that readers don't see the infobox, still it is important that we label the procedure by what it is classified as according to law. In many areas the law says that it is cosmetic, so shouldn't we also add a label to indicate that it is cosmetic?

In addition, I don't see any infoboxes on the page that would be interpreted as a copy of cosmetic. It's entirely individual. The only other infobox that is really related to it is intervention. This would make it never be deleted, and applicable to medical procedures that need it.

This does not have the potential to cause drama and edit wars. Once we have the infobox I will propose to add it to the circumcision page. The consensus of the other editors will determine if it is added or not.

In addition, it has one added benefit. Plastic surgery can be classified as a medical procedure with its own infobox.

JohnP 03:27, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

JohnPRsrcher I strongly suggest you do something more productive. Both myself and WhatamIdoing have told you that this is a guaranteed dispute. You have already been warned about edit warring on the circumcision page. People will disagree with you on this one.
I would also suggest that we close this thread now, because you are not likely to get support for your suggestion at all. JFW | T@lk 08:18, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I second that, logic and objectivity dictates there is no reason to pursue this--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 11:16, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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