Talk:Arthur Wellesley, Earl of Mornington

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Incorrect details

I can't find any evidence that Arthur has worked for Bain consulting, (I work for them and there is no record of him as alumni or active) so I removed it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ‎206.106.128.5 (talk • contribs) 00:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

It has been proposed in this section that Arthur Wellesley, Earl of Mornington be renamed and moved to Arthur Wellesley, Marquess of Douro.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Arthur Wellesley, Earl of Mornington → Arthur Wellesley, Marquess of Douro – The 8th Duke of Wellington died today, making his son the 9th Duke. According to the courtesy rules of the British peerage the Earl of Mornington became Marquess of Douro. Could the page of Arthur Wellesley, Earl of Mornington be moved to Arthur Wellesley, Marquess of Douro Fdewaele (talk) 13:38, 31 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Support I was about to request this myself, but I'm glad someone else has already. I strongly second this request, since currently this page has his incorrect title.--Ezrameyer (talk) 20:09, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Complicating matters, someone erroneously moved the page to "10th Duke of Wellington". That will only happen upon the death of the (new) 9th Duke and only if Douro is still alive at the time. -- fdewaele
Support The Earl of Mornington is the courtesy title of the grandson of the Duke of Wellington and the Marquess of Douro is the courtesy title of his son. I do not know why is a discussion needed, actually.--The Theosophist (talk) 15:10, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Courtesy and because there is already an existing article to which this one should be moved and thus only an admin can move it. I therefore listed a formal move request. -- fdewaele, 2 January 2015, 16:11 CET

There is an existing redirect (to this article), not an existing article. Anyway, I understand.--The Theosophist (talk) 15:17, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes but for the Wiki software that means that formally there is an article with that name, and unfortunately a move to an existing article (even if it's only a redirect) can't be done that easily. Trust me... I tried. -- fdewaele, 2 January 2015, 16:22 CET

You most certainly did. And I did too, multiple times. Usually, when this is the case, I list it at Uncontroversial Technical Moves and it is done in the space of six hours. Had you not placed this move request, it would have been deemed uncontroversial and done already. You, Labour, you.--The Theosophist (talk) 15:31, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Temporary oppose - see discussion below. I only support the requested move in case there is proof he assumed the courtesy title. Dr. D.E. Mophon 20:14, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The 8th Duke of Wellington died today, making his son the 9th Duke. According to the courtesy rules of the British peerage the Earl of Mornington became Marquess of Douro. Could someone/an admin please thus move the page of Arthur Wellesley, Earl of Mornington to Arthur Wellesley, Marquess of Douro and a redirect of that page to his father is no longer necessary. I apparently cannot move it. -- fdewaele, 31 December 2014, 14:32 CET

We have no evidence that Mornington is going to change courtesy titles. Yes, we can expect he will, but they don't always do so immediately (or at all.) There's a recent example I can't think of right now. (Was it Burlington?) Dan BD 17:56, 31 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Burlington (son of the Duke of Devonshire) did indeed keep his old courtesy title out of professional reasons. But that's the exception to the general rule. The normal usage/the norm always is the higher title. Why plan for the rare exception instead of the general rule? Absent a source tying in with such an exception, one should go for the general rule. -- fdewaele, 31 December 2014, 19:10

Exactly. The Earl of Mornington is the courtesy title of the grandson of the Duke of Wellington and the Marquess of Douro is the courtesy title of his son. Either way, he is not the 10th Duke of Wellington for sure.--The Theosophist (talk) 02:15, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the logical reason to change the page to "Arthur Wellesley, Marquess of Douro", it makes sense. But we should wait until we have some sort of confirmation that he indeed uses the title "Marquess of Douro". Instead of the ducal title, all the courtesy titles do not transfer automatically to the new holder. I could not find it, but can somebody else find a source on the internet that he indeed uses the title? But anyways, he is not the 10th Duke of Wellington :-D Why did Paul Brussel change the page to "Arthur Wellesley, 10th Duke of Wellington"??? Dr. D.E. Mophon 15:18, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, all courtesy titles do transfer automatically. Some peerages have courtesy titles even for the great-grandson, so when the peer dies, all people in the line of succession advance automatically. Also, whether he uses the title or not is irrelevant. The fact is that he holds it.--The Theosophist (talk) 16:27, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure whether courtesy titles do transfer automatically and I tend to disagree with your statement. Indeed, the transfer of courtesy titles follows some order of succession, but this is a matter of family tradition and is not legally regulated. Therefore (although not often), the holder of the peerage or the heirs apparent may choose to deviate from this family tradition. For example, William Cavendish, Earl of Burlington did not assume the title Marquess of Hartington when his father became the new Duke of Devonshire, although he was entitled to use that courtesy title. Dr. D.E. Mophon 20:02, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

He's already called that way in the media see for instance http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2892544/The-Duke-Wellington-99-dies-months-200th-anniversary-Waterloo-Jemma-Kidd-s-husband-heir-title.html As to wht Paul Brussel changed it: baffles me as well. -- fdewaele, 17:30 2 January 2014, CET