Talk:Hockney–Falco thesis

Validity of the thesis

The thesis can never be proven absolutely. However, a working artist will immediately know that its truth is highly probable, if the artist understands the thesis. Hockney's book does not explain the thesis well. Also, his book employs crude illustrative drawings that roughly indicate the use of concave mirrors. This results in a failure to communicate the thesis clearly and simply. Tracing an image that has been projected from a concave mirror would be an enormously efficient aid to an artist. Those who have never created art, such as art historians or art critics, would not know this from experience. They would merely use their own abstract knowledge from concepts in order to criticize the thesis.Lestrade 14:51, 25 July 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

I'm sure everyone, historians included, does realise that tracing can be of benefit. To say that non-artists somehow can't comprehend the use of tracing is plainly nonsensical. The question, the reply of historians and whatnot, isn't whether the 'old masters' would've found it useful but whether they did, in large numbers, use this method.

As a working artist, I can tell you not all agree with you, also. Personally, I find this theory infuriatingly moronic. It seems to just assumes that because of accuracy/realism a camera obscura must've been employed, it's an immediate 'did it this way!' each time. How does this account for the high quality in statues by the same questioned artists, such as Michelangelo, however? How can you deny the personal peculiarities in Ingres' portaits, such as the eyes, and the often highly distorted bodies and limbs (beyond the distortion you might find through a mirror)? Why does illogical perspective automatically suggest a camera obscura used at different angles and not simply drawings done at different angles? There are many such debatable 'proofs' like this.

I'm not saying that it isn't possible that some or even all used this method, much of it is open to debate, but I don't think anyone sensible can read the evidence Hockney puts forth and say the theory is 'highly probable.' --Breshkovsky (talk) 10:30, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I think the main problem with the theory is that it should actually be very easy to prove. We have a lot of information about how artists painted, be it self-portraits, paintings of their studios, descriptions, instruction manuals, contemporary biographies, and of course bills and inventories (when their household was confiscated because they went bankrupt). If they used complicated, expensive tools, there should be ample evidence once you know what to look for. And of course, there should be some surviving tools, because that is not the sort of item you throw away. 62.12.144.46 (talk) 08:03, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Art Renewal Center

The Art Renewal Center is a significant organization, and it is a non-profit. I'm going to re-add the bit about it that was deleted, as the ARC has been among the most vocal critics of the Hockney-Falco thesis and the idea that things have gone downhill in art since the Old Masters.--ragesoss 17:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

It is essentially a poster sales website, behind all the guff, although it may, as it claims, have a non-profit component (but what salaries do the promoters pull down?). It has zero status in academic art historical debate, and should not be included here. What it does have is very high Google page-rank, so its articles and comments come high on Google searches. But you won't find them cited in the academic debate. Its WP article rightly has a notability tag, although I think myself it might be borderline notable. Johnbod 17:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Very well. I think it's unfair to say it's simply a poster sales website, as it has a sizable gallery (the largest online, if its website it to be believed, though Wikimedia Commons is no doubt larger in terms of number of images) with paintings that are generally available at the highest resolution of anywhere online. But I'll defer to your judgment about not mentioning it here.--ragesoss 22:37, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

If it has "…zero status in academic art historical debate…," then it has high, elevated, and lofty status among people who appreciate art. A look at today's artworld will indicate the effect that academics have had on art. As for its articles, "…you won't find them cited in the academic debate." This gives the articles greater value. To say that "…It is essentially a poster sales website…" is subjective, condescending, snobbish, dismissive, exclusive, and patronizing. As much as I disagree with the Art Renewal Center, I believe that they have a right to be mentioned in the article.Lestrade 23:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

(edit conflict) I think refs are ok, but I just don't think it should be singled out in the text. Nice article, btw. I've linked to it a few times.Johnbod 23:02, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

The Art Renewal Center expresses opinions very similar to those of Adolph Hitler cs about "real art" and "Entartete Kunst". see http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/2001/ASOPA/bad_art_good_art1.asp and other publications Brian K Yoder puts "19th century and realistic art" in his resumé under "hobbies and interests" see http://www.goodart.org/resume.htm Does that make him an "art historian" (see this wikipedia article) His entire article is built around the wrong impression that Hockney should have claimed that all realistic painters from the Renaissance onward were only capable of creating their masterpieces by the use of optical instruments. The Hockney Falco thesis only claims that the aid of optical instruments (might have) dramatically changed the way we look at the 3D world and depict it in 2D. My two cents: remove this reference as well as Mr Yoder's opinion. Try to find references to debates on scientific facts instead. Maggy Rond (talk) 14:02, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Reductio ad Hitlerum... --86.135.176.173 (talk) 21:53, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

the skull in The Ambassadors

I'm surprised to see no mention of the weird anamorphic skull in The Ambassadors in this article. When I first saw the painting, I thought it one of the most bizarre works of art I've ever seen, considering the context. It's like something out of surrealism, except it was painted in the 16th century (quite apart from *how* it was produced, the entire idea that this warped and stretched image of a skull could just be inserted into a portrait and the artist not be lynched as a madman is confusing to me, but that's kinda besides the point).

Now I see this Camera Obscura theory as being pretty much nonsense, but the skull in that painting definitely gives me pause for thought as to whether or not optical devices were used by artists in the past... I see another editor mentions the painting above, but not the skull. Has Hockney not ever talked about the skull in the painting at all? --86.135.176.173 (talk) 22:08, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Garbled sentence

I would sort out the following sentence, but I can't work out what it should say: "Critics of the Hockney-Falco theory claim that the quality of mirrors, optical glass and for the period before 1550 and a lack of textual evidence (excluding paintings themselves as "documentary evidence") of their use for image projection during this period casts doubt on the theory." Thehalfone (talk) 14:48, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

That got garbled in the recent reorganization of the Criticism section. I think I've straightened it out.--ragesoss (talk) 15:35, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

further explanation

In this article it says that Hockney points to three paintings as evidence to his theory. Could someone with knowledge on the subject clarify if this is just him saying that the pictures are too good, or if there is other evidence that suggests that these paintings are the result of lens' etc? Quoth 31 (talk) 12:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Art Historians

Many art historians rebut this theory, but notably the ones that use diagnostic as a tool of identification are prone to agree to this since it's neither anachronistic nor out of character for the named artists. I think another person worth mentioning is Dr.Lapucci for her work on Caravaggio and how she made her publications available on her website http://robertalapucci.com

Her ideas are briefly explained in this article

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/4968509/Caravaggio-used-photography-to-create-dramatic-masterpieces.html

In my opinion one of the strongest points in favor of these claims is the multiple direction of the shadows of the objects sitting on the table due in theory to refocusing during different times of the day.

I think it is absolutely worth mentioning here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.1.30.22 (talk) 15:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I would prefer not to use the torygraph, but the thesis is neither new nor really revolutionary. Serten II (talk) 22:16, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Downsizing

I have cut down the entry to the essentials. The whole dicussion section is a mere hype and pure fringe and as needed as a micro probe analysis of pigments on the Shroud of Turin. You dont need a Walter McCrone to reject it, just have a look in the 1929 Encyclopedia britannica. Serten II (talk) 23:53, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

You're abusing your privileges with that page move, kid. Something tells me this ain't the first time, and all the amateur art history references won't save your ass when the banhammer comes. 172.250.24.73 (talk) 03:06, 7 January 2015 (UTC)