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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by KeyofNeptune (talk | contribs) at 19:12, 10 January 2015 (New talk section: Green Resistance). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Merge?

Would it be best to leave the Tripoli & Benghazi articles seperate, or should we merge them into this article? MrPenguin20 (talk) 11:49, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • They can be regarded as individual battles/offensives within the wider conflict, but I do think this article needs to be expanded with these items for now, then we can consider splitting in case there are more developments and in case there will be a future WP:SIZE issue. This one was created as a main umbrella article for the current situation, so maybe it is too early to have sub-articles. Thoughts? Fitzcarmalan (talk) 13:48, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Quite possibly. When I initially created the two articles the two incidents seemed more region specific. However as this has grown it has taken on more of a national tone. The Dignity Operation now seems not just to refer to Benghazi alone, but to Libya as a whole. So e.g. when the head of the Libyan Navy announced his support for Haftar in Tripoli, that announcement was clearly important, although didn't fit neatly into either of the articles. I think we're in agreement - this article should be the primary focus, and then more region specific items can be brought up in the smaller articles. MrPenguin20 (talk) 14:09, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Unneutral naming

the name of the article is unneutral,and is biased towards one side of the colfict,a neutral naming must be found for this article,becuase this is an armed coflcit between a general trying to seize power whom is even outside of the country,and between islamist group ansar al sharia,so the conflict is narrow.Alhanuty (talk) 15:36, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The word is used by numerous reliable sources ([1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]) and note that most of them equally use 'revolt' (+ [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] and a lot more), while some use 'rebellion' [16] [17] and even an anti-Haftar commander called the offensive "a rebellion against revolutionaries, the state and the legitimate revolt". Conflict is a very broad term and can reflect the whole post-civil war violence. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 17:11, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Alhanuty, I've moved the title to Operation Dignity (the codename of Haftar's offensive), which is a common name among the sources. I agree that it is too early to use loaded terms like 'uprising' or 'revolt' right now, since the events are still developing. There is also 'offensive' but I didn't want to use it because it would require more precision that can make the title too long. I hope this satisfies. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 12:28, 20 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Civil war

I am not sure how many hundred dead are needed to call the conflict a war, but I think this number has now been reached? Contributorzero (talk) 19:26, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There are indeed sources calling it a civil war, but we go by the common name among sources, not by the number of casualties. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 23:04, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I see your point for the overall title, but if some sources are using the name civil war, shouldn't the lead say something like "The 2014 Libyan conflict, also known as the Libyan Civil War, is an armed conflict taking place in Libya that began on 16 May 2014 after forces loyal...etc". (I also suggest that the page currently titled "Libyan Civil War" would be better titled "Libyan Revolution" if we use the COMMONNAME principle.) Contributorzero (talk) 07:30, 4 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The renaming of civil war to revolution was discussed several times on the article's talk page (see this for example). I have created a number of redirects to this article with civil war and I think it is preferable to wait before we decide on using the term in this article. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 21:45, 4 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your message. I did not quite follow your line of thought. Could you clarify why you think we should not use the term "civil war" anywhere in this article? Contributorzero (talk) 18:10, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You are suggesting that we add Libyan Civil War as another name to the conflict, but we already have an article by that name. That leaves us with something like Second Libyan Civil War, or perhaps 2014 Libyan civil war. However, we need sources for these, and I fail to see any. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 18:35, 6 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There are multiple news sources (The Mirror, The Guardian, Belfast Telegraph, Miami Herald, Middle East Eye, etc) that identifies the conflict as a civil war. On the other hand there are also multiple news sources that still uses phrases like "on the brink of civil war", "spiraling into civil war", "descending into full scale civil war", etc. The name 2014 Libyan civil war would reflect the situation in Libya right now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.185.55.87 (talk) 20:36, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I dont think the term "Civil War" can be avoided on the basis that it is inconvenient for wikipedia editors, because they already have an article by that name. Contributorzero (talk) 20:19, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The whole unwillingness to name it a "Civil War" reminds be about Clinton administrations unwillingness to call the Rwanda Genocide for what it was, a genocide, and instead preferred to call it "acts of genocide". The conflict in Libya is a civil war.

Islamist

The use of the word "Islamist" in this article is simply misguiding and grossly oversimplifies the reality. It is simply a convenient word for journalists who want a narrative for the conflict. I am aware we have to come up with some way of explaining what is happening on the ground, but simply saying "Islamist-dominated" GNC or "Islamist forces" does not really add any insight.--Aa2-2004 (talk) 11:21, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'll agree with this. The conflict is more driven by a mixture of ideological, regional, and group interests, with the groups on each side often fighting for a variety of reasons. So Haftar claims he's fighting Islamist forces, whilst the other side (bar the Benghazi Council) tends to justify itself not by claiming it's fighting for Islam, but that it's fighting for the original Revolutionary goals, whilst denouncing Haftar et all as counter-revolutionaries. It's tricky. MrPenguin20 (talk) 00:54, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I would also agree if the term is not widely used by RS. However, the anti-Haftar militias in Benghazi are commonly described as Islamists by the sources and it also helps the reader make a distinction between both warring sides there. No comment on Operation Libya Dawn groups mostly fighting in Tripoli. I agree that those are not necessarily called Islamists so I support unlabeling them. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 18:56, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah the Benghazi groups are definitely Islamist - I was referring to the Libya Dawn groups. MrPenguin20 (talk) 21:54, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Individual editors agreeing or not that the word "Islamist" is meaningful is not really a debate for this particular page. Enough people in the world find it meaningful for reliable sources to use it. As far as Operation Dawn is concerned, reliable sources say the attackers are Islamist, as is obvious really. Today, for example: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/tripoli-airport-2014823183122249347.html . Contributorzero (talk) 22:04, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I Have some chat with peoples in Tripoli that Ops Dawn Group Fighters was Indeed Has 'Islamist' Tendency... some of them even have Sympathy to ISIS in Syria... and have aim to Impose Strict Sharia in Tripoli, so its not wrong at all if they considered IslamistAhendra (talk) 09:13, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Role of Obaidi

Whilst I understand why Obaidi was originally included in the infobox (as he headed the "Official" LNA as opposed to Haftar's LNA), I don't think he really should be there anymore. The fact that he's reporting to the House of Representatives (which is generally pro-Haftar) suggests he's not active in the anti-Haftar fighting, as if he was then A - He'd likely already have been removed from his position by the HoR, and B - It's likely there would have been slightly more controversy over him suddenley turning up in the Haftar stronghold of Tobruk. Instead of being a player, Obaidi seems to be generally being ignored by both sides (e.g. ignoring his calls for a ceasefire). MrPenguin20 (talk) 00:48, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You make good points. What is your source that he is in Tobruk? Contributorzero (talk) 22:05, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This article detailed his submissions to the HoR in Tobruk on the 10th August. Then in turn this article spoke about how a memo written by Obaidi ordering all sides to commit to a ceasefire was ignored. Unfortunately you now have to pay to see most of the article, although for the first one you can still see, for free, that he appeared before the HoR in Tobruk on 10 August. Most of the information in the articles is now on the wiki page though in the August section. MrPenguin20 (talk) 22:11, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I can see enough of the first one to agree with you. He might not be pro-Haftar, but it seems unreasonable that he could be there and be fighting against Haftar. Contributorzero (talk) 22:31, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Operation Dawn name

Operation Dawn or Operation Libya Dawn?? Contributorzero (talk) 08:16, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Operation Libya Dawn (عملية فجر ليبيا) is the full name, but it seems to be referred to as just Operation Dawn in a lot of coverage. MrPenguin20 (talk) 01:05, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tripoli airport

Does anyone else think it is officially time to split some content from this article into Battle of Tripoli Airport? It is being widely covered in the news and I believe it is notable enough for a stand-alone article. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 00:56, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is a good idea. Contributorzero (talk) 19:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like a plan. MrPenguin20 (talk) 00:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Propose page move to Libyan Civil War of 2014

Since sources seem to now agree in using the term "Civil War", I propose a page move to Libyan Civil War of 2014. Contributorzero (talk) 19:47, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My observation is that the majority of news sources still talks about the conflict being on the edge of becoming a civil war. It's definitely a civil war, but news media are still hesitant to call it just that.
Your observation is interesting. Are opposing or supporting a move? Or neither? Contributorzero (talk) 15:29, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have moved the article back to its original title because I fail to see any consensus yet for such naming. Controversial moves like this should be made through formal move requests. This will also affect the naming of the 2011 civil war article and more editors' input is required. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 17:51, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In the absence of any objections, it was not controversial. It is your move that was done without discussion. Contributorzero (talk) 18:41, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I support changing it back to 'civil war' as that is a more accurate reflection of the current situation than 'conflict'. DylanLacey (talk) 09:15, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Contributorzero, I hardly call this a consensus. I didn't say I was opposed to such move (though I also feel uncomfortable supporting it). It not only affects this article but possibly the 2011 civil war article as well, and move requests are the most appropriate way for such decisions. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 19:43, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Libyan National Army split

If Abdulsalam al-Obaidi is cooperating with the new government in Tobruk, who are the pro-GNC faction of the LNA? Have army men like al-Obaidi, who were not obvious in declaring support for Haftar, been mixed up with forces of Libya Shield fighters (who were also official state forces)? Is there clear evidence of any actual LNA forces fighting against Haftar? Contributorzero (talk) 21:14, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I've seen any evidence of LNA forces fighting against the government. My understanding is that in May the Army split between an "Official" section (loyal to the official government, which was then the GNC), and a pro-Haftar faction. Then in turn the official faction became loyal to the HoR when that assumed power. I seem to remember seeing a video of some Libyan Army staff pledging loyalty to the GNC & denouncing the HoR last week, although nothing seems to have really come of it. MrPenguin20 (talk) 01:00, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Another thing that is unclear! Do you think it would it be best to take the LNA out of the Islamist side of the info box or leave them in there? Contributorzero (talk) 19:28, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It would be best to take the LNA out of the Islamist side. News media refers to Haftar's forces when mentioning LNA. The Islamist militias are predominantly referred to as Dawn of Libya. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.104.236 (talk) 00:32, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Map

Is there a map of the military situation in Libya similar to the maps of the Syrian Civil War and the Northern Iraq Offensive?

Don't think so. I'll get to work on one. Given how the fighting is somewhat restricted to Tripoli & Benghazi I'm thinking that two separate maps focusing on each city might be the best option. MrPenguin20 (talk) 00:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would be very difficult to produce any maps with meaningful accuracy. I think most towns are not overtly supporting one side or the other. A map of the situation in Tripoli or Benghazi would be excellent if we can get detailed up to date information of which neighbourhood is controlled by who- but can we get that without being a government? I think it would be really good to get a map of the situation, but can it be done? Contributorzero (talk) 19:45, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think the hardest part is showing control, as the situation seems to be highly fluid without clear cut front lines (in Tripoli at least). As such I think the best option would be a map showing important locations, e.g. bases/encampments of various factions/government ministries etc. This in turn can serve as a guide to augment the readers understanding of exactly what's going on, as without any kind of visual identifier often it's difficult to understand the meaning of saying that there's been clashes in X. It's probably easiest in the case of Benghazi where a map can highlight the various bases formerly used by Saiqa - and which how now been taken by the Benghazi Revolutionary Shura Council - given that Benghazi as a whole seems to be under the control of the Islamists. MrPenguin20 (talk) 01:02, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I thought Benghazi seemed under their control, but articles like this [1] keep appearing. The same applies to fighting on the outskirts of Tripoli. Your point about "a guide to augment the readers understanding of exactly what's going on, as without any kind of visual identifier often it's difficult to understand the meaning of saying that there's been clashes in X" is a very good point. Readers without particular knowledge of Libya may be baffled by unfamiliar place names. Maybe readers would be helped by something highlighting Benghazi, Tripoli, Tobruk, Zintan, Misrata, Warshefana and Camp 27. I think the important thing is that the map doesn't try to be definitive about control on the ground, because then it will probably be wrong. Contributorzero (talk) 15:09, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah exactly. Unlike say the Syrian Civil War, or the previous Libyan Civil War, there are currently no clear cut frontlines. Instead militias tend to control certain places, and have certain areas of control. The recently added map on the page is good for highlighting important locations, but yeah it's not quite right - e.g. Tripoli isn't under the full control of Operation Dawn. MrPenguin20 (talk) 21:47, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I am not at all happy with the recently added map from an IP address. I think the map overstates Islamist control in both Tripoli and Benghazi, and I don't currently know any sources that give Abdajiya to Ansar Alsharia. Zawiya and Khoms are also suspect. Until I have seen references it looks like biased in favour of the Islamists. I'll provisionally delete it. Contributorzero (talk) 21:57, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I added the map but I forgot to log in. I did not explain it since it isn't easy for me to write in English ;D I took the information from the article itself, so if you think it looks biased it´s not because I am "in favour of the Islamists" but because the article is wrong.
  • Tripoli: The following day, Operation Dawn forces announced that they have consolidated the whole city and adjacent towns after driving out rival Zintan militias 90 kilometers south of the capital
  • Ajdabiya: later launched nighttime air strikes on what they claimed to be an Ansar al-Sharia base in Ajdabiya, which had recently been taken by Ansar al-Sharia.
  • Benghazi: Forces loyal to General Haftar appeared to have had the territory under its control in the region reduced to Benina International Airport ; On August 17, the Al-Saiqa special forces abandoned their last stronghold in the city, Benina Airport
I took the information about Khoms and Zawiya from here.--Wiki erudito (talk) 09:52, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The article isn't wrong, you are not using the information in it properly.
  • Tripoli: The following day, Operation Dawn forces announced that they have consolidated etc. The article headline is that they claim control, not a confirmation of that. I know of no reliable source that confirms the Islamist claim.
  • Ajdabiya: later launched nighttime air strikes on what they claimed to be an Ansar al-Sharia base in Ajdabiya, which had recently been taken by Ansar al-Sharia. was from Aug 1 but 30 aug Demonstrators in Ajdabiya support HoR [2]
  • Benghazi: On August 17, the Al-Saiqa special forces abandoned their last stronghold in the city, Benina Airport
Not having a "stronghold" does not mean they have given up or lost control of the city or that they are gone forever, it is a fluid conflict
25th Aug: Fresh clashes Saturday in Benghazi http://www.webcitation.org/6S6QPzb6U and Benghazi clashes rage on[3]
30 Aug Demonstrations inside Benghazi support HoR [4]
1st Sept:Fighting in south east Benghazi [5]
Overall I think the map was misleading. Contributorzero (talk) 17:10, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
For the Tripoli situation, it does look like a lot of sources say Islamists are in control of the city, so it would probably be reasonable for a map, but there are also articles like this [6] (Aug 31) about fighting in the west of Tripoli and this [7] (1st Sept) which says Zintanis are active in the south western part of Tripoli. Contributorzero (talk) 18:32, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Benghazi: "its control in the region reduced to Benina International Airport". OK, I added the airports to the map and keep Benghazi in Ansar al-Sharia held territory, like this quote says. And the article isnt´t wrong, right?
  • Ajdabiya: Demonstrators aren´t fighters, it's a military map. We know that there is Ansar al-Sharia inside [18] but in contrast we have no evidence of Operation Dignity men inside and no reports of fighting, so putting it as contested would be a presumption.
  • Tripoli: the first article reports about clashes in the west of Tripoli, but then says "the coastal road linking Tripoli and Libya's western town of Zawiya", and speaks of suburbs in reference to the clases, in opposition to the "situation in the capital", so I think it´s not talking about Tripoli itself. This article of Libya Herald (more reliable) reports about the same clashes without even naming the capital. [19] And the second one says it pretty clear on the first sentence: "Fighters from the Islamist-aligned Libya Dawn militia, which has seized control of Tripoli". Then says that there are Zintanis in the "south and the west of the city", but not the "southern and western" parts of the city.
--Wiki erudito (talk) 21:03, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding your quote from article, it is made incomplete in a way which changed the meaning. It says "Forces loyal to General Haftar appeared to have had the territory under its control in the region reduced to Benina International Airport." It is then followed by "Speaking to al-Arabiya News, Haftar denied that Benghazi was under the control of militias, and instead claimed that his National Libyan Army was in control of the city, claiming instead that his LNA forces had only withdrawn from certain positions, and had done so for tactical reasons".
Regarding Ajdabiya, I did not say you should presume it is contested, I rejected your assertion on the map that it is uncontested. Since you mention it, I would find it strange that ansar al sharia allow protests against them in a city they control.
Regarding the other places, my points stand as they were at 18:32 on 2nd September, please read them. Contributorzero (talk) 22:43, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.libyaherald.com/2014/08/25/heavy-casualties-as-benghazi-clashes-rage-on/
  2. ^ http://www.libyaherald.com/2014/08/30/demonstrations-on-friday-for-and-against-hor/
  3. ^ http://www.libyaherald.com/2014/08/25/heavy-casualties-as-benghazi-clashes-rage-on/
  4. ^ http://www.libyaherald.com/2014/08/30/demonstrations-on-friday-for-and-against-hor/
  5. ^ http://www.libyaherald.com/2014/09/01/fighting-in-south-east-benghazi-as-ansar-renews-benina-attacks/#axzz3CB5i1jrD
  6. ^ http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/xinhua-news-agency/140831/heavy-fighting-continues-libyas-tripoli
  7. ^ http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/false-dawns-and-tattered-dignity-libya-1702999862

Self-proclaimed GNC

I invite editors of the 2014 Libyan conflict page to have a look at the related discussion below and leave any comments they want
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Self-proclaimed_General_National_Congress
Contributorzero (talk) 15:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Libya Dawn fractures

http://www.libyaherald.com/2014/08/31/libya-dawn-fractures-and-supports-the-house-of-representatives/#axzz3CB5i1jrD

Can anyone see enough of this article from 31 August to make the appropriate comments? It looks like important news. I haven't found similar articles in other sources, has anyone else? Contributorzero (talk) 17:18, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism

This article needs to be surveyed for erroneous additions. I have tried to eliminate egregious ones that stuck out to me, such as listing the dead Khamis Gaddafi as a commander and the support of the long-defunct South African Republic for the House of Representatives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CFC4:3410:D1F2:B50F:A50F:D832 (talk) 02:24, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Name change to Civil War

Why was the article name changed without consensus? Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 11:38, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested moves

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the pages to 2014 Libyan Civil War and 2011 Libyan Civil War, per the discussion below. With respect to the new idea brought up at the end of the discussion, if necessary, please create a new move request to discuss that proposal. Dekimasuよ! 03:43, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]


– I have moved the article back to its original title due to the nature of this decision, as it affects more than one article and a formal RM is certainly required. I know that some news organizations remain hesitant to call the current conflict a civil war, but still, several reliable ones frequently refer to it as such:

If a move is decided upon, I believe the proper titles would be 2011 Libyan Civil War and 2014 Libyan Civil War. ansh666 01:03, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Fitzcarmalan (talk) 10:29, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You mean 2011 Libyan Civil War? --George Ho (talk) 13:46, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It was requested that I close this RM, however, I have recused myself from administrative actions in this topic area so that I can participate in the discussions and serve as an involved mediator. I have not participated heavily in the discussions so far, but I will stand by my administrative recusal.
  • Therefore, in lieu of closing, I will vote support, to moving the two articles, using the "year first" format, with the generic title becoming a disambiguation page, and concur with Fitzcarmalan that related pages may need to be moved as well to avoid ambiguity. Gigs (talk) 14:22, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested moves 2

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved to the respective parenthetical titles. Although there appears to be an absence of consensus for the specific proposal of moving to "First" and "Second", the objections to these titles do not apply to the alternate proposal to move to the parentheticals, which is common Wikipedia styling for ambiguous titles. bd2412 T 15:54, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

– Just like the First & Second Ivorian Civil Wars, the First & Second Liberian Civil Wars, and the First & Second Sudanese Civil Wars. --Relisted. Dekimasuよ! 00:40, 10 November 2014 (UTC) Charles Essie (talk) 20:03, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just noting that my close above should not be taken to preclude this option, if there is support for it. Dekimasuよ! 04:02, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support – The present title is untenable, and quite wrong in its ordering. In cases where we have a proper noun, the year should come after the name in parentheses. This is because, at present, the year is implied to be part of the proper noun. This is not true, the year is not part of the noun, but merely something appended by Wikipedia. As such, proper titles if we were to take this format, would be "Libyan Civil War (xxxx-xxxx)". However, I think that I prefer the "first" and "second" proposals as being more WP:CONCISE, and easier to follow. However, if others favour the parenthetical title, that's quite fine with me too. Either way, we must remove the year from the proper noun, as it simply isn't supported by reliable sources. RGloucester — ☎ 21:03, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd support "LCW (2011)" and "LCW (2014)" - spelled out completely, of course, I'm just being lazy. "First" and "Second", though, have the same thing that RGloucester complains about: reliable sources do not refer to them as first/second, unlike the Liberian and Sudanese examples (incidentally, I couldn't find anything for the Ivorian either). ansh666 21:50, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't really think we should be using a title that isn't used in any sources (first,second). If someone can come up with sources, fine. Regarding RGloucester's objection to "year first", I really don't think it matters much either way, and would see no problem with going to "LCW (year) as suggested by Ansh666 and RGloucester. Gigs (talk) 18:52, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - There must have been prior civil wars, but history of Libya doesn't tell much. Probably the history must have been lost, but we can't treat these civil wars as First and Second. --George Ho (talk) 23:46, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, "Libyan Civil War of 1791–1795" redirects to "1793–95 Tripolitanian civil war", but, trivially, that was several years after the start of the Constitution of the United States. --George Ho (talk) 23:49, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose Common name. --Panam2014 (talk) 21:41, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd support either Libyan Civil War (2011/14) or Libyan Civil War of 2011/14 per Ansh666, and I oppose the proposed titles due to the lack of sources backing them up.
Dekimasu, I forgot to bring this up in the previous RM, but don't you think Post-civil war violence in Libya should have also been moved to something like Inter-civil war violence in Libya? Fitzcarmalan (talk) 14:37, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Please feel free to do what you think is necessary, especially since the target is unblocked. Dekimasuよ! 00:40, 10 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
checkY Moved. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 09:36, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is quite clear that the parenthetical titles are favoured, and as I said above, I'd be happy to support their use. They do what needs to be done, which is to remove the date from the proper name, so that we can follow reliable sources. Let's get on with it. RGloucester — ☎ 22:54, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Libyan Civil War of 2011" would be a lot better than "Libyan Civil War (2011)" for most of the subsidiary articles mentioned in the previous move request. For example, "International reactions to the Libyan Civil War of 2011" is much clearer in scope than "International reactions to the Libyan Civil War (2011)", and "Timeline of the Libyan Civil War of 2011 before military intervention" is preferable to "Timeline of the Libyan Civil War (2011) before military intervention" or "Timeline of the Libyan Civil War before military intervention (2011)". Do these need to match the main articles, and/or should we go with "Libyan Civil War of 20XX"? Dekimasuよ! 01:20, 26 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Alleged airstrikes on Zintani airfield - Fact or Fiction?

[34]

This link implies that there has been an aerial attack upon a Zintani airstrip. However, there seems to be a lack of other corroborating sources to conclude for sure that this event did, in fact, transpire. Lacertilia the Magnificent (talk) 00:23, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Belligerents Column

There is adequate evidence for Qatari, Egyptian, and Emirati support to various forces but can the same truly be said about Turkey and Sudan? The evidence for Turkish material assistance to the neo-GNC/Tripoli-Hasi authority seems especially thin. In fact, there appear to be clearer indications of Belarussian arms shipments to militia factions. For the case of Sudan, it is not clear cut what position that state is actually taking. Following the weapons shipment accusation, a joint meeting of Sisi and Omar al-Bashir has resulted in both claiming that they will support and train "the Libyan army." The cabinet associated with the HoR has also shifted toward expressing support for Sudanese mediation.

The supporting countries for the belligerents may need to be updated. Lacertilia the Magnificent (talk) 22:49, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Turkey and Sudan have both been accused by Haftar and the Libyan government respectively of supporting "terrorism" in the country and these two are one of the war's main belligerents. However, I agree that more evidence is needed to confirm that they are on the anti-government side, so I'd support removing them for now. But if someone insists on keeping them, we can add "alleged" next to each. Thoughts? Fitzcarmalan (talk) 09:46, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds good. I would support either removal or putting the qualifier "alleged." I would say the case for Sudanese involvement seems slightly stronger than the alleged Turkish aid to the anti-government side (Turkish weapons would make a decisive impact on the conflict and Turkish diplomatic behavior does not show sufficient indications of support), though neither is adequate to be listed as confirmed supporters of a specific belligerent. The case for either country directly assisting a particular belligerent is far weaker than, for example, alleged Sudanese support for the Machar-aligned rebels in the South Sudanese civil war. Lacertilia the Magnificent (talk) 18:41, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to talk about the third column (radical jihadists). I agree with Lacertilia the Magnificent's introduction of a third column that clearly defines the radical jihadists as a separate side in the conflict. Fitz, you made an argument that the radical jihadists have not been in a conflict with the unrecognized government so thus they should be in the same column with a separation line. You also made mention of the Syrian war. I would remind that in Syria you have the YPG which at the moment is not in a conflict with ether the Assad government or the non-ISIS rebels but they do have a separate agenda and are in their own column due to this. So, they (the radical jihadists) don't need to be in a conflict for them to be in a separate column. EkoGraf (talk) 18:15, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Prior to adding the third column, I examined the Syrian war's listing of four categories/classifications of belligerents. My reasoning was that the 2014 Libyan Civil War's box could have a section for each belligerent that displayed the prerequisites necessary to constitute an independent and notable political/military force. The forces aligned with Ansar-al Sharia appeared to have met this criteria. I agree with what you stated about the YPG column and its implications for the Syrian conflict. That reasoning was part of the rationale as to why I placed the new GNC and the AAS-allied forces in separate columns. The YPG has exhibited closer ties with some Syrian rebels than the Libyan jihadists have with other Libyan factions. Lacertilia the Magnificent (talk) 18:41, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. EkoGraf (talk) 23:59, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sockpuppets

This article was recently edited by another sockpuppet of Caradoc29105 and more are expected to come. Fortunately, the sock was blocked and I have requested for the page to be protected, like I did with Khamis Gaddafi, but I was told this time that one sock is not enough to warrant this. Two things can be easily noticed about Caradoc: adds hoax content to articles and his contributions (along with his socks of course) are all mobile edits. Anyone can check the SPI archives to know more about Caradoc's behavior. Unfortunately I won't be here long enough and I might embark on a months-long wikibreak, so whenever someone finds out that he is editing the article, please don't hesitate to make a request at WP:RFPP to avoid further disruption. Regards. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 09:31, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

ISIL sanctions in tact

Due to the involvement of ISIL in the 2014 Libyan Civil War, this page is subject to sanctions, meaning:

  • All articles related to the Syrian Civil War and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, broadly construed, are placed under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24 hour period). When in doubt, assume an edit is related and so is a revert.
    • Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Reverts of edits made by anonymous IP editors that are not vandalism are exempt from 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring.
    • Editors who otherwise violate this 1RR restriction may be blocked without warning by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.}}

Please edit carefully and mind consensus.GreyShark (dibra) 19:49, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

New Map

What do you think about this map.hereLindi29 (talk) 21:51, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Map

I have made a new map for Libya, EkoGraf Lothar von Richthofen Boredwhytekid and others,everyones opinion is welcomed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Module:Libyan_Civil_War_detailed_map

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Libyan_Civil_War_detailed_map

Alhanuty (talk) 01:59, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Looks a very good map and great work. This would help readers understand the front lines and zones of influence better. Lacertilia the Magnificent (talk) 22:35, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another map

Thanks to the large amount of work you all put into the detailed map above, I been able to create File:Libyan_Civil_War.png. — Preceding unsigned comment added by John Smith the Gamer (talk • contribs) 23:44, 28 December 2014 (UTC) I prefer not to have to take bold actions, but I believe this map is better than the current one in the article. Anyone going to offer an opinion or should I just replace the top with the bottom?[reply]

— Preceding unsigned comment added by John Smith the Gamer (talk • contribs) 06:00, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest a new color in place of green, green was used on the pro-Gaddafi map of the 2011 war. Try with yellow...--78.0.121.150 (talk) 15:00, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

ISIS in Libya? Is it true or is it propaganda?

As the acronym says, ISIS is an organization active in Syria and Iraq. What this organization has to do with Libya? I have a sense that some people deliberately try to connect some organizations in Libya(especially Derna rebels)with ISIS to justify an intervention — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pppaaaooo13 (talk • contribs) 17:05, 31 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Timeline" section

Does this section have too much information, or does it need reformatting? --George Ho (talk) 02:37, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It does. How about we take of some information and turn it into an article?

Gaddafi Loyalists

Reports of Gaddafi Loyalists joining forces with Zintani Brigades. KeyofNeptune (talk) 17:37, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Green Resistance

Gaddafi Loyalists control Farzougha and Ad Dirsiyah just east of Benghazi KeyofNeptune (talk) 19:12, 10 January 2015 (UTC) KeyofNeptune (talk) 19:12, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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