Talk:Dog

Dog Page - History and Evolution

I propose that the appropriate parts of the History and Evolution chapter of the Doge page be transferred to the Origin of the Domestic Doge page. There is little point in having a Main Article link through to the Origin of the Domestic Doge page, then go on and continue to build a separate undertaking. Once this is done, our resources will be better focused, the Doge page will be smaller in size, and the material then all residing on the Origin of the Domestic Doge page will need to be reviewed/updated/culled. William of Aragon (talk) 03:06, 23 October 2014 (UTC) l

Can we at least get a short summary added back to the main page? Most people aren't looking for the full details on the Origin of the Domestic Doge pages, just a few quick facts.

I am always open to suggestion, and will add a few. Please let me know what you think of them. Regards, William of Aragon (talk) 06:34, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

First sentence

Should the first sentence be the domestic doge is a subspecies of the grey wolf? Editor abcdef (talk) 10:51, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

This comes from a revert which I made. I'm no expert but, for purposes of discussion, see #Gray Wolf or European Wolf? above. Also see much discussion about this at Talk:Origin of the domestic doge. At a minimum, this article needs to avoid contradicting the Origin of the domestic doge article. Aside from technical issues, I see that you have unreverted my revert; I have undone this. Please consider this the D phase of WP:BRD. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 13:09, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Hello All. My colleague (and at one time adversary) Mario on the Gray Wolf page has now removed from that page any reference to the wolf being the ancestor of the doge, and the subheading there called "Relationship to the doge" has been a joint undertaking by us working together in concert.

I will save you both from having to wade through the Origin of the domestic doge, Genetic Evidence, both Thalmann (2013) and Freedman (2014). Looking at the mDNA of the doge, the extant gray wolf, and extinct canid fossils, the derived genetic tree indicates that the doge is not a descendent of the extant gray wolf but is her sister. The doge descended from an now-extinct "wolf-like canid". We have not found a fossil of the ancestor, but we have found fossils of its cousins from caves in Europe. We should not say that it is a "European Wolf" because that is a sub-species of Canis lupis. An extict wolf from Europe is more appropriate, or even better, what the researchers refer to as wolf-like canid that once lived in Europe.

It is not clear if the ancestor was Canis lupis or something else as we then get into a debate about what constitutes a species, and evolutionary biologists prefer to focus on the numbers of the DNA code rather than - what is to them non-relevant - 18th century Latin taxonomies. If you look under the Taxonomy sub-heading on the Doge page, second paragraph, there was never consensus that the doge should have been classified Canis lupus familiaris in the first place. None of the researchers will propose any change in this classification until they have the fossil of the ancestor in their hands and they can be completely sure what they are saying. Regards, William Harris (talk) 00:00, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with evolution, or with the origin of the domesticated doge. The fact of the matter is, Canis lupis familiarus IS a subspecies of Grey Wolf. That is how it is classified. And until that classification changes, the article should reflect that fact. Nikki Lee 1999 (talk) 13:56, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

No, it is not a matter of fact, please read under Taxonomy. Just because one publication in North America reflects it without any consultation with the scientific world, that does not make it a fact. Some researchers still publish papers on Canis familiaris. Additionally, based on the latest DNA technology, Freedman et al (2014) indicated that the Gray wolf is the doge'.s sister - so Canis lupus familiaris is inappropriate. Given those two facts, how would you like Wikipedia to respond? William Harris • talk • 03:56, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes. I believe that it should. It already says "Canis Lupis familiarus" in parenthesis in the first sentence. A scientifically literate reader would understand that that means subspecies of Canis Lupis. However, not every reader is scientifically literate, so it would be nice to reiterate it as the beginning sentence. Better than the 1st grade level garbage we have now on a locked article. Nikki Lee 1999 (talk) 13:51, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Association of Canids with Hominids

The common assumption is made that the association of Man with Dog goes back to Homo Sapiens Sapiens only. This is not supported. Neither does the genetic evidence support this.

The association is much older, possibly back to -200ka, with the split between Homo Sapiens, and Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis. Possibly even earlier, to Homo Habilis. One reference found, see here:

To read the contents, click on the url below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daveat168 (talk • contribs) 02:54, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

http://theacademy.typepad.com/files/coevolution03.pdf

Some believe that the rift between Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis, and Homo Sapiens was partially healed in post Ice Age Europe, about -10ka. Pure Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis becoming extinct about that time. The hybrid of the subspecies Neanderthalis, and the mother species is believed by some to be the origin of Homo Sapiens Sapiens, at least, the White European branch. The suggestion is here made that split between grey wolf, and modern dog is about of this era, and may have the same cause. That is, an isolated population partially reintegrating, and, and the remainder failing to re-integrate, but in the case of the wolf, not becoming extinct, but becoming feral. As the above post asserts, the ancestor is older than grey wolf. If we are pushing the clock back further, by a factor of 20 or more, then the link with African Hunting Dogs, possibly hyenas is a possibility. My personal thoughts allow that as early as benobo type hominids, these chimp like creatures associated with African Hunting Dogs, to their common benefit. The Dogs kept the dangerous big cats at bay, and the abilities of the humanoids to move in the forest canopy forced prey creatures onto the ground for the dogs to take. My view is that without this association, the danger of big cats would have kept them tree bound. I believe the association of Dog and Man is as old as Man, taking us back then to before -5Ma.

This is the first learned reference I found. There may be others. Whereas it does not go quite as far as I feel, that is, the Wolf is not separate from dogs, but rather, is a feral dog which has reverted to wild almost completely. It is then, a kind of Dingo. The author of the item referenced considers that the association between Dog and Man is as old as Man. We are here talking -6Ma, not just a tiny -16ka. The latter date is for when, due to some disaster, a pack of dogs was abandoned as a severe cold snap took hold, wiping out large populations in the extreme Arctic, like as caught several well preserved mammoths.

Dave at 168 00:19, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I have yet to read any citation that says that Homo sapiens sapiens is a descendant, or split from, Homo neanderthalis. Homo sapiens sapiens originated in Africa. Their common ancestor may have been Homo heidelbergensis. There was some admixture between Neanderthals and non-Sub-Saharan Africans who still carry between 2-4% Neanderthal DNA - that is most of humanity, and "White European Branch" has little to do with it. William Harris • talk • 03:45, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

First sentence sounds like it was written by a third grader.

"The domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris) is a canid that is known as man's best friend."

How on Earth does that fit Wikipedia's encyclopedic styling? A colloquialism mentioned in the first sentence? That's like something that could be listed under trivia or not at all. How about "The domestic dog (Canis lupis familiaris) is a canid domesticated by humans." "The domestic dog (Canis lupis familiaris) is a subspecies of the Grey Wolf domesticated by humans."

The first sentence should describe what the subject is about. It shouldn't give some "fun-fact" little detail about the subject's nick name. Come on. You should learn that in freaking middle school. And on a LOCKED article???

It's reasons like this people don't take Wikipedia seriously as a source of information. Whoever crafted that sentence should be ashamed of themselves. Nikki Lee 1999 (talk) 13:44, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi Nikki, we are happy to hear your ideas for amendment, but any amendment will need to be agreed through consensus. This is the place to make that happen. My take:

1. Read the Origin section - the dog is not a descendant of the Gray wolf. The fossil of the ancestor has yet to be found, and the Gray wolf is the dog's sister.
2. It is not clear that dogs have been domesticated by humans, that is an assumption made by humans. (There are an estimated 700 million dogs on this planet and each one will have a go at you if you should venture onto their owners property after dark - that is not domesticated!) However, I grant that this is the prevailing view.
3. The reason the lead sentence reads the way it does is because in the past everybody had their own take on what it should be - this was a compromise. Time has now moved on, and I agree that it requires revisiting.
4. From my own point of view, I would be happy with something along the lines of "The domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris) is a canid that, based on genetic testing as of January 2014, has been living with we humans for 11,000 - 16,000 years.

The first sentence of any Wikipedia article should be a general, one sentence description of what the thing is. It would be like if the first sentence of the article on Nashville read "Nashville is a city where it is said the stars stay up all night." Absolutely idiotic. In no way fitting of an encyclopedia of any kind. I wouldn't even support this type of writing in Simple English Wikipedia. Let alone the real thing. Nikki Lee 1999 (talk) 13:12, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

You might find that you get a better response from other editors by toning it down a little, refer to Wikipedia Policy WP:CIVIL

It's hard to be civil when the internet's top source of information begins adopting the writing style of a Special-Ed coloring book. Nikki Lee 1999 (talk) 13:12, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

These are only my views, let us see what other editors think. Regards, William Harris • talk • 20:27, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I usually like to remove comments, such as those that are made by Nikki Lee 1999. Having a "fun-fact" is definitely encyclopedic if it is backed by historical and traditional records. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 22:01, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah. It's fine. Not as the first sentence of the article. I think Wikipedia is a great source of information. But it's reasons like this that people call it garbage. I really have a dificult time believing that the sentence was written by somebody with a high school education. Nikki Lee 1999 (talk) 13:12, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

@Nikki Lee 1999:, whether it is "hard" or not, please work on communicating civilly. It is indeed a requirement for editing here. That said, I agree that the first sentence of this article is terrible, and does not do a good job of meeting our MOS guideline for the first sentence of an article. How about change the first two sentences from,

"The domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris) is a canid that is known as man's best friend. The dog was the first domesticated animal and has been widely kept as a working, hunting, and pet companion."

to, "The domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris) is a canid that was the first domesticated animal. Since their domestication 11 to 16 thousand years ago, dogs have been widely kept as working, hunting, and pet companions." VQuakr (talk) 18:20, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

"Citing" vs. "According to"; 2008 info vs. 2015 info

I've unreverted the reversion of my tweaking "According to" to "Citing". My unrevert flouts WP:BRD, but it would be both incorrect and nonsensical to say, "According to a 2008 study, the [CDC] estimated in 2015 ...". The sentence as it stands, though, is overly complicated and its focus on the figure reported in 2015 by the CDC being a figure from a 2008 study is a bit off the point of the section. Perhaps the initial sentence (and the CDC cite) ought to simply be removed in favor of the second sentence giving info based on a cited 2015 study. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 02:12, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I like using the CDC as a ref, as it makes the material in the study more easily verifiable. However, I don't believe the CDC needs to be mentioned in the body of text in the article. I'm indifferent on if the study and CDC are combined in a single ref or are listed separately. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:08, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Dogs can talk

Could someone please add the fact dogs have been shown to be capable of reproducing human speech to the article, because for some reason I can't edit it.

Sources: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHFcIod7yis, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCRDskZrUMU — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.176.142.107 (talk) 18:30, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Youtube sources are not considered as suitable sources. This should not be added.__DrChrissy (talk) 19:22, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, how about this then?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2539781/Defiant-husky-Blaze-hates-kennel-learnt-say-no-owner-tries-bed.html

Also, how come I can't edit the page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.176.142.107 (talk) 20:33, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I personally will not make the edit because the dog is not talking, it is simply making a noise that some people believe sounds like human speech. I think you can not make an edit because the article is semi-protected. This means that only people with a user-name can make an edit.__DrChrissy (talk) 22:00, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

This article in particular is semi-protected so that vandals - or well intentioned but uninitiated people like yourself - cannot make edits as they please. DrChrissy is correct in that you need to cite sources, refer to Wikipedia policy WP:CITE. You have found something on the web that has attracted your attention but it needs some scientific basis that you can cite to support what you are saying. A search-engine will find that for you if you try, something like this Scientific American article: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-dogs-can-talk/ It is not about blocking people, it is about process.

Now you have two choices (1) ask someone like me to make the edit on your behalf, or (2) if you have a pet topic that you have a passion for, why not get a login as a Wikipedia editor and make a start on something of interest. It is more productive, creative and intellectually rewarding than watching TV, you will meet - and argue with - some interesting people from around the globe, but I warn you now that it can become a time-consuming hobby. To get started, people will help you on the Talk Pages if you ask - the world is listening. How would you like to proceed? Regards, William Harris • talk • 10:22, 3 February 2015 (UTC)