Talk:Camouflage passport

Redirect

Added a redirect from fantasy passport as no article exists there. I don't agree that a camouflage or fantasy passport are different things. They are just slightly different sides of the same coin and there is no justification for two articles saying the same thing.

Any objection to my updating the article to reflect this? --Spartaz 16:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In the absence of any objection... --Spartaz 16:14, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, but I object. You say: “I don't agree that a camouflage or fantasy passport are different things.” That is an opinion that you are entitled to it. Nevertheless, reality and human language are not going to bend to your whim on all occasions. You also say: “The catchall term of fantasy document is often used in official circles to describe all of the different types of these documents.” Which “official circles”? It may be true of some “official circles,” but not all, as the rather detailed Isle of Man publication demonstrates. See. The fact that some people (official or otherwise) fail to understand, as you do, the distinction does not justify scrapping it immediately. The original article drew the common, rational distinction between the two. It is a distinction that is predicated partly on intended use, partly on the nature of the documents themselves, and partly on origin. To say that a NSK fantasy passport issued by the Slovenian art collective to a rabid Laibach fan is the same as a Rhodesian camouflage passport in the hands of an American businessman traveling in the Middle East is to deprive BOTH terms of the meaning that makes them useful. That is why the terms exist: “Camouflage” denotes the intended use of the document as well as its design, viz., to have a passably realistic country name and appearance. “Fantasy” denotes not only the fantastical nature of many of the issuing entities, but rather that the documents are consumed as novelties, often by people who only are feeding their imaginations. They differ in other ways, notably in their origin. Camouflage passports are sold by blatantly commercial business outfits as a putative security tool. They don’t pretend what they are selling is “real,” they describe exactly what their wares are: Bogus but real-looking and from a host of non-existent countries you can choose from. Fantasy passports are the opposite. A single “fantasy” issuer issues its own single type of passport and purports that the passport actually means something, be it membership, solidarity, citizenship, whatever. They do not come out and say “buy our fake passports, the mean nothing, but you might be able to fool terrorist with them.” Their product is quite different. Can you use a fantasy passport as a camouflage passport? You can try it. Don’t may people who buy camouflage passports do so exclusively for a novelty or fantasy purposes? You bet. But the position that they are the same thing and that is clearly untrue. --Criticality 23:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Phew - what a lot of text. Do you have a link to the different definitions of camouflage and fantasy passport? Offical circles would be national immigration authorities - This would unfortunately fall under WP:OR since I know this from being a long standing member of am immigration authority. Frankly anyone holding a document that they know to be invalid and seeking to use it for any offical purpose is equally wrong whether they call them fantasy documents or anything else. I'm not particular interested in getting into a fight over this but I'm not happy with documents being cited one way or the other without any links. --Spartaz 21:57, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The distinction being well set out is in the Isle of Man press release cited above in this discussion and in the article itself. The camouflage/fantasy distinction is neither perfect nor universally observed, but it certainly is valid and useful (as illustrated above) and supported both by etymology and convention. --Criticality 14:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Soviet Union

The Russian Federation was until recently still using up its stock of Soviet Union passports. They are neither fantasy nor camouflage documents so I have removed the reference. --Spartaz 16:28, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Russia’s known and reckless practice of using old paper stock to issue current passports does not resurrect the Soviet Union. The USSR does not exist and it does not issue passports. I don’t know whether the Russian Federation marks up its newly issued passports with the name of the issuing county, I suspect they do. In an case, “camouflage passports” issued in the name of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, are openly available and have been for years. E.g. You can issue them. I can issue them. The Russian Federation can issue them as easily as Latvia. Again, the USSR does not exist and it cannot issue passports.

--Criticality 20:14, 3 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reckless - says whom? Its hardly reckless if every country in the world recognises and accepts the documents as evidence of Russian citizenship is it? Old Soviet Union agreements and treaties are still binding between Russia and other countries unless specifically cancelled so why the big deal that theya re using up old passport stocks? The documents don't say the holders are Soviet Union Citizens but Russians. FWIW Most of the 'Stans issued Soviet passports for some years after independeance until they had time to design, print and issue their own documents. :-)

BTW I can't find any reference to Soviet passports in the link you cited. Any chance you could be more specific?

--Spartaz 22:03, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Russia is a successor nation to the USSR, but it is not the USSR, which no longer exists. I say “reckless” because the Russians know there is a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the policy will cause exceptional confusion and facilitate fraud and yet they do it anyway, simply to save money on paper. Honoring papers previously issued in the name of Russia’s parent state is one thing—issuing new passports with USSR makings is altogether different because it falsely states the identity of the document issuer. This is naturally misleading to the average person and, more importantly, it makes genuine fraud more ambiguous because the USSR’s nonexistence makes specific criminal intent much more difficult to prove.

In any case, when I look at the site above it does claim that USSR camouflage passports are for sale. So do these sites: #1, #2, & #3 --Criticality 14:35, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hong Kong

removed

British Hong Kong (absorbed by the People's Republic of China)

from main page. Eh? Not aware of any HNK comouflage/fantasy passport. There is still BRitish National Overseas passports but they are not comouflage passports as they are issued by the UK Government.

--Spartaz 10:41, 3 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Camouflage passports are sold in the name of “British Hong Kong.” E.g. Why is it that you are convinced otherwise?

As you might recall, there was a time, not so long ago, when Hong Kong was actually a leased possession of the British Crown. Alas, however, Hong Kong is no longer British and now passports issued in the name of a “British Hong Kong” are patently bogus. Nevertheless, they have the veneer of reality, and might fool an ignorant or careless person (none of those around here) with malevolent intent, so they fill the role of a camouflage passport readily. As you suggest, UK issued British National overseas passports are, of course, REAL. Similarly, previous UK/HK “BDTC” passports were also real but all expired by 30 June 1997. As indicated, the “British Hong Kong” passports on the market are camouflage, since no one issues a “British Hong Kong” passport and “British Hong Kong.” What is your point in this edit?

--Criticality 21:37, 3 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Criticality - I'm a professional immigration person heavily involved in detecting document fraud - I would be vaguely aware if there were any unofficial British Hong Kong passports floating around (apart from the forged ones that is). There is no reference to British Hong Kong passports in the site you cited. Please can you be more specific? A very quick google search on the term only showed incorrect references to BNO passports (British National Overseas)--Spartaz 22:10, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again, a careful look at the aforementioned site discloses that it does claim the offer “British Hong Kong” camouflage passports for sale. Furthermore, so do these sites: #1, #2, & #3 I would suggest "camouflage passport" + "british hong kong" as your Google search terms. --Criticality 14:39, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]