Talk:Russian separatist forces in Ukraine

Equipment section!

For an article on "Donbass People's Militia", this article looks remarkably like a collection of weapons? Is the article a weapons manual? See what Wikipedia is not, per is not indiscriminate collection of lists, cruft, etc. The entire "Equipment" subsection is three times the length of the subject of the title and detracts from the content. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:49, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Combat forces section tagged

All sources for the relevant section are Russian yellow press or independent propaganda sites (i.e., ultimately, self-published). Reliable sources are needed, particularly when speculating on the nationality of volunteers who have joined the separatists. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:36, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Now most of sources are independent. 94.45.129.180 (talk) 19:33, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Time to rename the article?

Both Kiev & Moscow sources reported on September 16 the creation of the "United Armed Forces of Novorossiya", so I think that the article should be renamed and expanded to the rest of Lugansk battallions (Zarya, for example).--HCPUNXKID 22:51, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Go ahead. RGloucester — ☎ 23:02, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

New page for Equipment

As Iryna Harpy mentioned, the article is getting too lengthy due to the equipment section. Now that the militias merged into a single group, we should move the section into a new page called "List of equipment of the United Armed Forces of Novorossiya". SkoraPobeda (talk) 14:14, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Support: too many content for one article 94.45.129.180 (talk) 19:29, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

There is also a Batman unit.

Don't know who commands it. They have a bat patch.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=226850&d=1414697342 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.7.137.211 (talk) 22:01, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Er, not exactly sourced evidence, is it. Find some WP:RS, not a photo with someone's own childhood batsignal flag used to personalise the military vehicle they use. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:08, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

The Batman unit is commanded by Alexander Bednov. http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/a-prelude-to-a-farce-prearranged-ballots-for-kremlin-backed-breakaway-regions-370349.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.7.137.211 (talk) 22:23, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Do you know whether they are directly affiliated with the Army of the South-East? It would be useful if you could provide their name in Russian or Ukrainian for further sources and information. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:38, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

AFAIK it is an independent unit affiliated with the NAF. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.7.137.211 (talk) 21:33, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, I ran a google search in Russian based on the info you've provided, but it doesn't yield any reliable sources for further information, I'm afraid. That's not to say that there aren't some sources, but they're they're so WP:SPAM that I wouldn't be able to use them for the purposes of Wikipedia. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:55, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

After your long wait, I finally added it. We also have the SSI and flag of it thanks to MrPenguin20. SkoraPobeda (talk) 19:39, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the hard work you've put into salvaging the article, SkoraPobeda and MrPenguin20. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:01, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

No problem Iryna! SkoraPobeda (talk) 18:04, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

another unit, the Rusich reconnaissance and assault unit

They have a sunwheel patch.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=adf_1413145576&comments=1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.7.137.211 (talk) 21:35, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Aliya unit's patch

http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/s/t/starshinazapasa/alia.jpg

http://www.globalterrorwatch.ch/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Battalion-Aliya.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.7.137.211 (talk) 21:42, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

not facebook

To the anon IP who keeps adding a link to the photo gallery from Vkontakte [1] - from your edit summary it appears you've misunderstood my point. Yes, I know Vkontakte is the Russian version of Facebook. But that is precisely why it's not encyclopedic and why it's not appropriate to include a link here. When I said "Not Facebook" I did NOT mean "it's not Facebook so we can't put it here". What I meant is "Wikipedia is not Facebook, or Vkontakte, so we can't put it here. It's an encyclopedia not a social networking site". See WP:NOTFACEBOOK. Volunteer Marek  04:40, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Note, also, that linking to such a site is considered to be WP:SPAM. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:30, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

is this even real

Borodai says that "Novorossia" is a dead concept and rebels themselves on the ground refer to the "Armed Forces of the Donetsk People's Republic", not the "NAF" - is this original research at this point to attribute this group as a functioning unit? It certainly is not centralized. --LeVivsky (ಠ_ಠ) 02:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea whether it exists or not. We have the sources that say it was formed, but not much else. It isn't "original research" in that sense, at least, because we didn't make up the concept. I have no way of verifying anything on the ground, so really there is nothing to be done unless someone can provide an RS that definitely says that the merger of the militias failed. RGloucester — ☎ 02:16, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

"Aliyah" Battalion

"Aliyah" battalion was an immigrant battalion used by the Israeli army for settlement patrol. Later it began a registered non-profit association dedicated to direct Russian-speakers in Israel's attention to fight againt "terrorism and violence" (See Russian Wikipedia article: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BE%D0%BD_%C2%AB%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%8F%C2%BB). It was disbanded around 2002.

A person called "Avigdor Eskin" (Авигдор Эскин) strolls around telling that he is the establisher of this organization, which is not true. No Israelis are fighting in Donetsk and there is not evidence to establish that they call themselves "Aliyah" or acting on behalf of the Israeli government. The patch depicted in the pictures article is a patch of the IDF and was not seen in Ukraine whatsoever. The picture of the patch is from Israel and not a recent one.

Israeli Russian-speaking Channel 9 article of this "Aliyah Battalion". http://9tv.co.il/news/2014/06/02/177085.html Note the comments speaking of it being not true. Israel's ambassador to Ukraine, Reuven Din-El, has said that "No Israelis are fighting in Ukraine" http://evreiskiy.kiev.ua/posol-izrailja-v-ukraine-batalon-alija-13365.html

Please erase that for it is not true. 12:52, 4 February 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moto53 (talk • contribs)

How to stop anonymous delete

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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There is this IP (94.45.129.180) that is constantly deleting my contributions about Essence of Time armed division (in Vostok) and Bryanca SSSR (in Prizrak). I'm now here on Wikipedia, there is a way to stop him? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhorg (talk • contribs) 00:36, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Dear Mhorg, please stop adding "Essence of Time" advertising, based on their claims.
Firstly, citating sources are: 1)YouTube Video (at "Essence of time" youtube channel) 2)"Essence of time" site.
It is a violation of following WP rules: 1) Self-published sources as sources on themselves 2) Original research - Not confirmed by sources, other than "Essence of time". It is impossible to find this information even on separatist sources.
Secondly, these edits are not neutral ("liberation of Donetsk airport"). 94.45.129.180 (talk) 13:32, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

The presence of an armed force of "Essence of Time" Movement is a fact, documented many times by Graham Phillips and other sources that are now in Donbass. The group had three killed during the defence of Monasters. Whats needed more? http://www.phillip-butler.com/uncommon-valor-the-bbc-forgot/ comment added by Mhorg (talk) 1:47, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Take it to WP:ANI please. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:56, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

my revert of a non-neutral source

I made this revert because it was referenced from a clearly non-neutral source. Unfortunately Ukraine is at an information war, so statements about opponents must be carefully filtered in wikipedia. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:35, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with you on being cautious about the screening process for sources. This is a matter that's been brought up time and time again with regards to events in Ukraine. Mouthpieces for either side (be it government outlets like RT, Sputnik, et al, or Euromaidan press) are WP:BIASED sources which are fine for presenting official positions where they're DUE, but not RS within the context of this article. As it stands, VM has added an RS for inclusion. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:03, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

RNU Volunteer Corps structure flag

The reason why I reverted it is because the flags on the side are for the most notable battalions and brigades. The RNU Volunteer Corps have neither been notable enough or big in size to just put that swastika-having flag in the middle of all the other flags. Show me at least two recent RS about the RNU being active in the fighting for Donetsk Airport or Debaltseve. If not, then you're showing me that you just want it there so that people can see that there are neo-nazis in the militias. No kidding, there's all sorts of volunteers in it ranging from communists to monarchists. SkoraPobeda (talk) 14:56, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

The sources are already given. They don't have to be recent to make the unit important. This is an encyclopedia not a newspaper.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:21, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

So basically a neo-nazi unit with probably less than 100 people is as important as Vostok, Sparta, or Somalia? By that logic, I can throw in the Chetnik flag just because I feel that 250 Jovan Šević fighters are as important as they are. SkoraPobeda (talk) 15:36, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

They're important because they're getting covered in reliable sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:16, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I reviewed the coverage for RNU, bout in refs and in google. Here are my two major findings:

• there is no "RNU Volunteer Corps" in English news.
• The section in question says: "armed groups, which took the oath for Donetsk People's Republic". I saw no evidence of any major neo-nazi military unit taking this oath and operating under an identified name.

Therefore I would agree with deletion per WP:NOR until better evidence.

That said, there is indeed the evidence that RNU, Dugin's, and others are volunteering in Donbas. But they are included in other formations, either individually or as companies, but not as a major military unit worth notice. This may be a subject of another article, about Russian volunteers in Donbas. Do we have any? Staszek Lem (talk) 19:19, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Now, about " so that people can see that there are neo-nazis in the militias". As it is, there is nothing wrong with this. There is plenty of noise that there are neo-nazis on the Ukrainian side. Same goes with Russian side, right? In any revolution, civil war, etc., thugs and extremists are only happy to flex muscle and are welcome until victory and then quietly gotten rid of not to mar an image of the "Victorious Truth and Justice". Staszek Lem (talk) 19:25, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

RNU they have a web page for advertising of volunteers and the name of the unit is "RNU Volunteer Corps" in Englisch [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamburg322 (talk • contribs) 20:01, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

And always post pictures of as volunteers at the front with the RNU patch — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamburg322 (talk • contribs) 20:10, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

If that's their page, then they are in reality called the "RNU Volunteer Units", not "Corps". As for Staszek's question, we don't currently have any article like that. What we can do is create a new one called "Foreign volunteers in Donbass". If it would be an article just for the Russian volunteers, it could become a stub. But if it was about foreign volunteers, we can put all of the units that are not officially pledged to the DPR or LPR and Ukraine. We can use the sources from the War in Donbass article about foreign volunteers. Then there could be a section about volunteer neo-nazis from both sides, like pro-Ukraine Swedes and pro-Russia RNU Volunteer Units. What do you guys think of this? SkoraPobeda (talk) 20:42, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Thats a good idea , a good example is the article about the foreign fighters in Bosnia Foreign fighters in the Bosnian War — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamburg322 (talk • contribs) 21:18, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

There's definitely a need for such an article (or stub at this point). Currently, there are various articles lending themselves to misleading/mischaracterising content (per WP:SYNTH) such as this. The fact is that generic characterisation based on volunteers being attracted to 'causes' doesn't tally with RS descriptions of the nature of this form of warfare where the political ideologies of a minority of foreign volunteers is tolerated by the majority, but doesn't necessarily sit easily with them. What is essential, however, is that such an article be based on RS. We can't cherry pick sources in order to tailor them to fit our own understanding of the issues at hand. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:37, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Maybe we write only who in this combat unit fights and not their political motivation Hamburg322 (talk) 17:19, 11 April 2015 (UTC)