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April 21

Fingerprints on Driver's Licenses

Some states (e.g. California, Texas) require driver's license applicants to submit one or more of their fingerprints. Such prints have been used in some cases to track down fugitives if authorities are tipped off to these states. However, it seems that the actual physical licenses themselves don't contain the prints, so where exactly are these prints stored - are they embedded somewhere on the licenses themselves, or do they just appear on the application paperwork submitted by the licensee? 98.116.73.98 (talk) 05:06, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A driver's license is used as a form of ID. The fingerprints will have been stored on a database. If your fingerprints are found at the scene of a crime, the database will show your home address, and the license plate number of your car. This way you can be tracked down. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 05:13, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I remember one case where the FBI, while searching for a fugitive, stumbled upon a person living in California (using a different name) who seemed to resemble the fugitive, so they decided to obtain a "certified copy" of that person's driver's license (which contained the right thumb print) and used the print to confirm that this particular individual was indeed the fugitive they were looking for. I'm guessing that this "certified copy" of the license will contain everything in the application records (including the print)? 98.116.73.98 (talk) 05:26, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, this has some downsides:

1) Gives police another tool in framing people. I'm not sure if they can reproduce that fingerprint at a crime scene, but they could just show a copy of that print to a jury, and claim they found it at the crime scene. (They would need to do some photo manipulation to make it less obvious the print was made in ink, and it would likely only work on poor defendants who lack a good lawyer who might figure out where the prints came from.)

2) False positives. If enough people check enough partial prints against yours, eventually one may "match", especially if they use low standards for a match, as many do in many places in the US. StuRat (talk) 15:21, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Section 12800(c) of the California Vehicle Code requires license applications to include a "print of the thumb or finger". Oddly, I can't find anything prescribing what they're supposed to do with it (based on searching for "finger" and "fingerprint" in the entire Vehicle Code), aside from §12800(j) which implies that it's to "enable the department to determine whether the applicant is entitled to a license under this code". Maybe they compare the submitted fingerprint to the previous one to ensure it's the same person, though you'd think the photo would be enough for that. I don't think the fingerprints are disclosed in bulk by the DMV to any other entity, because the California Supreme Court ruled that unconstitutional (though that was in 1986 and I'm not certain they haven't changed their mind). Law enforcement can obtain a print from the DMV if they suspect that person of a crime, but not just because they want to have all citizens' fingerprints on file. The code doesn't say whether prints are included on license cards, but does specifically forbid the SSN from appearing, even in digital form (§12801(e)). I'd think the prints would not be included because they are quite sensitive (more sensitive than the SSN, because you can't change your prints if your wallet is stolen) and I don't see what purpose including them would serve. I didn't look at other states' or countries' laws. -- BenRG (talk) 19:47, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't Lutherans make the sign of the cross the norm?

In the Lutheran church I visited, making the sign of the cross was the exception, not the norm, and relatively few people did it. Children and the teen acolytes didn't do it at all. In contrast, in the Roman Catholic church I visited, making the sign of the cross was the norm, not the exception, and the congregation did it together or whenever they received the Eucharist. In Martin Luther's Small Catechism, Martin Luther advised explicitly that people should make the sign of the cross - but Lutherans today, even with the fancy vestments and elaborate liturgies, don't do it? 140.254.136.157 (talk) 13:20, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

From the Wikipedia article sign of the cross, it is not discouraged formally by the Lutheran faith. Which doesn't mean it is mandatory either. --Jayron 32 13:30, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen it done by many if not most members of the congregation at a Lutheran (ELCA) church I visited.Some also put water from the baptismal font on their heads when they left the sanctuary. Perhaps in some Lutheran congregations the members are more familiar with Luther's writings than in other congregations. Edison (talk) 03:32, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There also may be a distinction between congregations where most of the membership was raised Lutheran over multiple generations, versus those that have more new converts or which formerly attended other denomination churches. The expectations between the two may be different. --Jayron 32 08:26, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a male equivalent to "Fallen Women"?

Fallen Women occurred before and during 19th century Western Europe. Was there an equivalent term for a concept for fallen men? Does being "fallen" have to be related to sexual promiscuity or sexual libertine behavior? Can it refer to general perversion or wickedness, like being uncharitable or irresponsible? 140.254.136.157 (talk) 14:55, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I believe it's used to refer to sexual promiscuity. While there is generally more leeway given to men in this area, there is a limit, and you get insults like whoremonger tossed at men who pass that limit. Historically, having sexually transmitted diseases like syphilis might be the point where the man is then shunned by his peers. StuRat (talk) 15:11, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Historically the equvalent term in English was "rake", but of course "fallen woman" is usually just a euphemism for prostitute, though there is a bit of leeway in its usage. Paul B (talk) 15:19, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know whether you can really say it equivalent. For example, as I understand it, a woman who'd had sex outside marriage once, even been raped, could be regarded as a fallen woman if it was publicly known regardless of anything else. I doubt a man who'd had sex with one woman outside marriage is likely to be regard as a Rake (character), at least not without a late of other stuff. It may be the closest term as there may not have been a closer one due to the different moral standards and views of males and females particularly their sexuality. Nil Einne (talk) 16:56, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There can be no direct equivalent, of course, because female promiscuity and adultery has historically been much more condemned than male promiscuity and adultery, which is just a sign of masculinity. Rake and 'rakish' can even be positive terms, as in the Aussie TV series. There've never been real effective male equivalents of slut, slag, whore, etc. Paul B (talk) 18:37, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Or kind of celebrated, as in The Rakes of Mallow.[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:29, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Phew! Glad he did ask about an equivalent of a fallen Wikipedian editor. I can't imagine a member of the fairer sex falling as low as we do. Come on girls, get editing – we need you to lead us out of this world of intellectual smart-arsed promiscuity and back onto the path of righteousness! - edit, edit, edit.--Aspro (talk) 20:08, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Men can fall down too. Supposing a guy is walking along and he trips. Wouldn't he be a fallen man? Bus stop (talk) 02:40, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

With Paul B. above. Notion of a "fallen woman" is yet another sign of the historical domination of women by men. Men need to own women. Men need women to be dependant. Machismo, etc. Akseli9 (talk) 04:39, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I like to think of myself as a fallen man, although I suppose, strictly speaking, it's less that I fell and more that I jumped... RomanSpa (talk) 12:57, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a female equivalent to "Jumped Men"? Akseli9 (talk) 15:48, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Reading the Epic of Gilgamesh

I found a list of great books and decided to try reading some of them. The very first book on the list is the Epic of Gilgamesh.

I'm not expecting this work to be easy to read given my lack of background knowledge. Has anyone who edits here a recommendation for a particular English translation, or for preparatory reading?

Thanks, CBHA (talk) 23:53, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You could start with our articles on Gilgamesh and The Epic of Gilgamesh. StuRat (talk) 00:18, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The one translation published since 1979, when a new longer version of the text was found, that is listed in the article in the Encyclopedia of Religion is the one by Andrew George. That or any more recent translation taking into account the 1979 discovery might be the best option. John Carter (talk) 00:33, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I read the Penguin classics version as a teenager. It's not hard at all. Paul B (talk) 00:41, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. The Penguin classics version is very readable and immense fun. Prostitutes, a wrestling buddy provided by the gods, a monster to hunt and kill in an unexplored forest and an underwater search for a prickly vegetable that gives eternal youth; what's not to like? "Oh Gilgamesh, great is thy praise" is the final line (from memory). Alansplodge (talk) 20:44, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the Penguin version is quite suitable and, iirc, it provides a few versions of the text as well, as it is known piecemeal from several sources. The thing I found surprising about it is how thoughtful the main character turned out to be; as one of the earliest known bits of writing, it might be guessed that it's a straightforward story with simple heroics. Certainly the fight with the bull is the only part widely known to the public (to the extent it's known at all). And yet the fight with Enkidu and subsequent adventures are only a small part of the tale - a great deal of it is Gilgamesh trying to raise Enkidu from the dead (spoilers!) and coming to terms with not being able to. Matt Deres (talk) 01:48, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, one of the more philosophical passages goes...“Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to? You will never find that life for which you are looking. When the gods created man they allotted to him death, but life they retained in their own keeping. As for you, Gilgamesh, fill your belly with good things; day and night, night and day, dance and be merry, feast and rejoice. Let your clothes be fresh, bathe yourself in water, cherish the little child that holds your hand, and make your wife happy in your embrace; for this too is the lot of man.” Alansplodge (talk) 08:01, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you all. I'm reading a 2004 version by Stephen Mitchell which is the one I found at the local library. It is very good, I would say. I'm also looking for the Penguin version. CBHA (talk) 19:20, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

April 22

Maps

Can anyone please point me to a map that meets the following criteria:

Shows the area covered by North-East Egypt (at least including Cairo), Israel, Lebanon and South-West Syria (at least including Damascus);
Shows the Dead Sea, Sea of Galilee, Jordan river and Suez canal in reasonable detail;
Does not have current borders, or the borders are easily removable; showing the 1914 borders would also be acceptable;
Preferably has no place names on it;
Is under CC-BY or similar license.

I want it to form the basis of a map illustrating various things about the Palestine campaign of WWI. GoldenRing (talk) 13:04, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Maps now in the public domain would also, of course, be useful. GoldenRing (talk) 13:15, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

File:Middle_East_topographic_map-blank.svg --Jayron 32 13:21, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks. GoldenRing (talk) 08:08, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nicaraguan civil war

The article on Wikipedia does not seem complete. I was wondering about how the autonomous eastern Caribbean regions (mostly black vs. national majority Mestizo) played during the war? (as an aside, anyone know the name of the casino hotel near Managua airport?)120.62.4.247 (talk) 15:04, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There's a little bit of information at Mosquito Coast#Miskito Under Nicaragua. --Jayron 32 15:42, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And the only information I can find at Wikipedia on a Nicaraguan Casino is Pharaoh's Casino. --Jayron 32 15:44, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And that's indeed near the Augusto C. Sandino International Airport. Deor (talk) 18:08, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A good critical history or two of early Islam along the lines of Biblical criticism

I've read various books by writers like Geza Vermes who put Jesus's reported and likely sayings into the context of the Judaism of his era, books that explain John the Baptist's ministry, and the fact that he still has his own followers (or did until recently) that view him as their prophet, not Jesus as their messiah. Also there's the notion that Paul created Chritianity by changing Jesus's role from that of a Jewish teacher to savior god synthesized with John's gnostic ideas and pagan myths like the Isis/Osiris Adonis and Tammuz, and speculation that the destruction of the Temple and the end of James' ministry led to the final schism between Jews and Christians with the destruction of the Jewish community of Jesus's followers still in Jerusalem. (This is prolog, not a set of points I'm looking to have debated)

What I'm interested in is a readable scholarly (not sectarian, pro- or con- !) work, or a few, that address the Pagan, Jewish and Christian millieu of pre-Muslim Arabia, the origins of the Kaaba, Khadija's role in Muhammad's ministry, the nature and recording of his utterances from a critical (as in biblical criticism) standpoint, and those of his immediate followers up to the Sunni-Shia split. I am interested in things like the idea that certain Muslim beliefs in regard to Jesus (such as that Jesus was not himself physically crucified, but that it was an image) may originate in no-longer existing Arabian Christian communities. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 18:19, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think the "Arabian religion" article in Encyclopedia Britannica covers at least some of your questions regarding the pre-Islam Arabian polytheists. Also, this page, although obviously 90 years old, deals with some of the issues regarding Christian influence on Muhammad. I do remember reading, that Muhammad had been in contact with Bahira, who was a monk of some Eastern Christian variety, and that his beliefs regarding Jesus do reflect the views of some of the Eastern Christians. Unfortunately, from what I remember reading, the documentary history about early Arabian religion is sparse in the extreme, at least compared to some other similar religions, and the history of Muhammad's early life independent of Islam ain't much better. The Classical Heritage in Islam by Franz Rosenthal deals with the Classical impact on Islam, which is probably at least to close to being the Christian impact, I hope anyway, and Greek and Arabic: Essays on Islamic Philosophy by Richard Walzer does much the same. I don't know if the Britannica article has a bibliography, but the Hastings Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics has a similar article, although it might have some very outdated material, and it does cite some sources. That's all I can think of quickly though. John Carter (talk) 19:03, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I contacted my local library, but the reference librarian (with whom I am very familiar) advised me that the local branch only had encyclopedic reference works which she knew would not satisfy me. I m still looking for specific works which people can recommend from experience. (And the last time I saw the Encyclopaedia Britannica in hardcover was in 1986. What I have read are either very sectarian accounts or Will Durant's The Age of Faith which is close to what I am looking for in style, but is about a century out of date, and nowhere near as deep or technical as I'd like. I'll check with the library about the other sources, thanks. μηδείς (talk) 21:57, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is a long shot, μηδείς, but The Cartoon History of the Universe series by Larry Gonick features very extensive Reference Lists/Bibliographies, which might well include works relevant to your interest: Volume 3 covers the rise of Islam – I have it (and Vols 1 & 2) at home, but I won't be leaving work for at least 6 hours so I can't check it right now.

(Incidentally, I'll also be interested in any suggestions that other editors can give – I've read extensively (at a popular level) around the origins of Judaism and Christianity, but likewise haven't encountered much about Islam.) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 12:55, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Medeis and IP 212.95..., there is a lot less critical scholarship on early Islam than on early Christianity because while western Christianity has largely accommodated itself to humanism and the Enlightenment, mainstream Islam largely has not. Therefore, most Islamic scholars do not question religious dogma. Also, those who might want to take a critical approach run a serious risk of being charged with heresy or blasphemy, which can have fatal consequences. That said, you might take a look at the references at the bottom of our article Disputed issues in early Islamic history. When you get hold of the most recent sources listed there, check their references as well. Because your area of interest is so marginalized, you are unlikely to find an authoritative reference and will probably need to read a selection of scholarly papers. Marco polo (talk) 13:31, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, marco polo, the article historiography of early Islam linked to at the disputes article has proved helpful. I found it odd there wouldn't at least be 20th century English and 19th Century German scholarship on the topics. I have ordered a few titles. μηδείς (talk) 21:32, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No God but God by Reza Aslan meets at least some of your requirements. --ColinFine (talk) 12:43, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, ColinFine, I have placed it on order. μηδείς (talk) 19:43, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also two books that may guide you as to what to read:

The lives of Muhammad by Kecia Ali (a very quick read)
Narratives of Islamic Origins by Fred Donner (more scholarly; well regarded, but Donner does have views that are not universally accepted)

Abecedare (talk) 19:56, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

April 23

Louis XV of France and George I of Great Britain

Was there any pretense on Louis XV of France's part on the fact that he was technically more related to the deceased Queen Anne than George I of Great Britain being a great-grandson of Charles I of England, albeit a Catholic? Obviously no diplomatic claims but pretenses similar to the British kings' claims to France from the Middle Ages.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 01:04, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

See Jacobite succession; Louis XV of France#Ancestors; George I of Great Britain#Family tree. Louis was never first in the queue of those skipped over by the Act of Settlement 1701, but at Anne's death he was fifth after the Old Pretender, the Queen of Sardinia (Louis's grandmother), the Prince of Piedmont and the Duke of Aosta (Louis's uncles).

If you're counting degrees of kinship, it's five steps from Anne to either Louis (father-sister-daughter-daughter-son) or George (father-father-sister-daughter-son). —Tamfang (talk) 07:24, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Because I have no life, I made a list of the births and deaths of everyone ahead of Louis. From 1715 Mar 22 (death of the Prince of Piedmont) to 1720 Dec 31 (birth of Bonnie Prince Charlie) there were only three; and during his life there were never more than 18. —Tamfang (talk) 04:10, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It should also be noted that the English claims to the French throne were based in large part on treaty and not purely on succession. Following the Treaty of Troyes, the Plantagenet kings of England were recognized as next in line after the death of Charles VI of France, skipping over his own son. The claim was never formally renounced by treaty, though ultimate victory in the Hundred Years War gave the French throne to the Valois for good. The Plantagenet and their heirs continued to claim the Throne of France until 1801. There never was any treaty or statute which established the Bourbons as legitimate heirs to the Throne of Britain. At no time did Louis XV ever press a claim, nor was he ever considered, even in passing, as far as I know. Following the English Civil War, the Restoration, and the Glorious Revolution, the succession to the British throne was decided purely by Parliamentary statute, and no one pretended otherwise. Parliament did use certain traditional principles, such as primogeniture, in deciding the succession, but it was obvious to all they set the rules, and there was zero chance of them offering the throne to a Catholic French king. --Jayron 32 12:31, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Three supreme gods

I've noticed that many religions seem to share a trinity. This includes Christianity, hinduism, and taoism. Is there an underlying reason why many religions have three supreme gods? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joey13952 alternate account (talk • contribs) 01:24, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Correction: Christianity doesn't have three gods, although some version have 3 manifestations of the same God. And I was under the impression that Hindus have many gods. StuRat (talk) 01:31, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Hindu "trinity" is referred to as the Trimurti, but it is just one model among many others. Paul B (talk) 16:16, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

HHinduism has many but there are three main gods — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.119.235.208 (talk) 01:56, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Taoism doesn't have any gods. Taoism is merely ancestor worship. There are spirits, but no gods. Some people might interpret them as gods, and if they did, there would be thousands of them. Not three. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 06:27, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And the Three Pure Ones are not gods in what way? Also, the OP didn't say "only three gods," they said "three supreme gods." Ian.thomson (talk) 00:20, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's the OP's responsibility to post a clear, coherent message, although I am pretty sure most of our other recent Calgary, Alberta IP's have been indeffed. μηδείς (talk) 06:25, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia has an article on Triple deity.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:38, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Rule of three extends to a lot of things. There's just something naturally better about that number, but I can't quite explain what. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:48, April 23, 2015 (UTC)

I think part of it in this particular case is that there seems to be some sort of "triple goddess" such as Hekate and the Morrigan at least from the early days of Indo-European religion. That being the case, the concept was likely carried over to all the groups the Indo-European diaspora contacted, and some of them probably adapted the idea into their own systems. John Carter (talk) 20:56, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

More generally, all stories since the dawn of time have had a beginning, middle and end. ABC is as easy as 1, 2, 3. Works for non-linear things, too. Wherever there's duality (cold/hot, black/white, up/down), there's a point between. That point between is basically humanity; we all view ourselves by looking to either side. "I may not be as strong/rich/smart as Johnny, but at least I'm not as weak/poor/stupid as Janie." So it seems logical that we'd have always ascribed this tendency to higher powers, too.

Less logically, there once was a man who rode a donkey off to see a man God didn't want him to see. So God sent an angel to kill him. The donkey had better vision than the man, and thrice tried to avoid the angel to save the man. And thrice the man beat that donkey to push it forward, as the walls on either side closed in. On the third strike, God let the donkey voice a complaint, and the man essentially said "If I had a sword right now, I'd kill you, you mockful talking ass!" And the donkey said, "I wouldn't kill you."

Of course, that was just the middle part. The rest is less interesting, I find, but still plenty of threes. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:04, April 24, 2015 (UTC)

Fun Fact: There's a goddess named Trivia. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:10, April 24, 2015 (UTC)

US Civil War

What are 'videttes'? Does it mean a reconnaisance team or something? KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 06:22, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty much, see Vedette and also 1st Tennessee & Alabama Independent Vidette Cavalry. Nanonic (talk) 06:44, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

an icebox in the Andes

Some maps show a rectangle straddling the border of Chile and Argentina, latitude 49°9′30″ – 49°47′22″ south, longitude 72°58′ – 73°37′ west. What is it? —Tamfang (talk) 07:37, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

First idea that comes to mind, although it may have nothing to do with it: a protected national park area? (Torres del Paine National Park) Akseli9 (talk) 09:21, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

According to our article on the Chilean province of Última Esperanza, a section of that boundary is disputed. The rectangle may show the area that is in dispute. Marco polo (talk) 13:18, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also see Southern Patagonian Ice Field#Borderline. The area is officially undefined; both countries have never officially ratified the border in that area. --Jayron 32 15:53, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Odd that it's shown as a box rather than two dashed lines (like, say, the northern borders of India). —Tamfang (talk) 03:16, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The box probably defines the unambiguous territorial claims of each country. Outside the box is land that no one disputes; inside the box is an open question. Such boxes appear on the map in other places where borders are or have been disputed. See Saudi–Iraqi neutral zone and Saudi–Kuwaiti neutral zone and Hala'ib Triangle which are other disputed lands similarly shown. --Jayron 32 14:31, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is box office revenue for a film before interest, overhead, and taxes?

Is box office revenue for a film before interest, overhead, and taxes? For example, if a film made $100 million on ticket sales at movie theatres, does this mean that overhead and taxes are charged on this revenue? WJetChao (talk) 09:11, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Our article Hollywood accounting may be of interest. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 13:00, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This has been a matter of lawsuits when actors or directors have had contracts guaranteeing them a certain amount of the proceeds and then the studio has claimed they actually "lost" money on films that have had scores of millions in ticket sales. I can't think of a specific case at the moment, but I remember this making headlines in the 80's or 90's. μηδείς (talk) 16:18, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

- A current case is Richard Dreyfuss v. Disney where the immediate dispute is over which accounting firm/s can be trusted to look at the precious account books.[2] Rmhermen (talk) 16:49, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that is indeed one of the cases I had in mind, and I know there are more. μηδείς (talk) 20:41, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Religions/denominations which do not disclose membership statistics/number of adherents

Apart from Christian Science, Christadelphians, and Iglesia ni Cristo, what are other examples of religions or otherwise denominations (I'm interested mainly in Christian ones) which either do not disclose membership statistics or have an official policy of not disclosing them? And among these (apart from Christian Science, which I've already asked about before), what is their reason or possible reason why they do not disclose membership statistics? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 11:37, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

ObPersonal, but in my experience (including that of my own spiritual path, Wicca) many religions are not organised in such a way that they could accurately count the number of their adherents with any comprehensiveness. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 13:03, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Scientology is a group which has a very broad internal definition of being a follower. Basically anyone who has ever bought a book or attended a meeting is a Scientologist according to the Church of Scientology, which makes me one for having bought a book 30 years ago. I can also imagine that some Chinese religious groups or groups in the territory of other repressive governments will not keep lists, particularly of names, of their followers, for fear of the list falling in the hands of the government. And, obviously, some of the Mormon polygamist sects, some of whose activities are a violation of law, aren't really interested in having their identities made known to the governments whose laws they are breaking.

And the point above is another very good one. For groups which have no really recognized internal structure, which might include a lot of newer groups (like Falun Gong), there won't be any body with the ability to count or disclose membership. Some of the newer Christian evangelical movements I think also are made up of member groups which have no particular obligation to report membership to, or in some cases specific body to report that information to, and on that basis their numbers are unknown. John Carter (talk) 17:54, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

212 is right; there are a lot of independent churches such as my own, Berean Baptist Church in Port Charlotte, Florida, or First Baptist in Englewood, Florida so it would be difficult to get an accurate statistic, for example, of how many Baptists there are in the world, or how many Methodists there are in the world. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages) Jesus Christ loves you!} 19:59, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Particularly for groups which have a global body which does not include all possible members. The Lutheran World Federation, for instance, does not include the Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod or Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, among other bodies, so even it's official membership list, which probably won't include those other groups, will be off because of their lack of inclusion. John Carter (talk) 20:06, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention there are a lot of people in the world who would identify as Catholic or Baptist but may have not been to church in a long time. In contrast, there may be people whom are members of more than one church, such as snowbirds who may have a church in one area part of the year and another area another part of the year. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages) Jesus Christ loves you!} 20:09, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Certain individual Christian denominations, with official denominational bodies and other elements of internal structure, still don't or can't release statistics for various reasons. For example, the Church of God of Anderson has no membership (its concept is that salvation makes you a member), so it obviously can't release precise numbers. The intro to our article on it notes that the denomination is happy to estimate the numbers of adherents, but that's quite different from official membership. Nyttend (talk) 18:53, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I thought early Christianity operated like that. Adherents used the Ichthys symbol to identify themselves to each other in private. But they tried to avoid being noticed by the Roman (or wherever) authorities, so I doubt they'd have published any demographic data or membership figures, even if they had any. 50.0.136.194 (talk) 20:23, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Major-General Sir Frederick Hallett

Can anybody find any details of this person. He was an officer in the British Indian Army and in 1859, was appointed to the Royal Commission on the Defence of the United Kingdom. That's all I know, otherwise he seems to have fallen through the gaps in the internet. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Alansplodge (talk) 17:57, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I think that it might be a typo (or another error) in the source. Frederick Hallett isn't named as a member of the Commission in this list, but there is a Major-General Sir Frederick Abbott, formerly of the Indian Army. And indeed he has an article here. FlowerpotmaN·(t) 21:25, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well done and many thanks! Alansplodge (talk) 21:40, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

Comcast/TWC merger bombs, good or bad for CCV?

Just heard on Fox News that the merger between Comcast and TWC is not going to go through. Am I alone in thinking this will not be good for Comcast's stock? PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages) Jesus Christ loves you!} 19:53, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Follow it for yourself. No significant change yet, perhaps because the news was not totally unexpected. Abecedare (talk) 19:58, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the input. I do watch it because I own it, but I was more or less curious of what a second opinion would render on this because I bought it when the merger was first announced. Then again, I know that no one here is (acting as) a stock broker or stock market expert. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages) Jesus Christ loves you!} 20:07, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, the current academic consensus is that mergers may boost the stock at announcement, but on average create a negative long-term stockholder value (see eg. [3], [4]) So in general buying a stock at the announcement of a merger, is a bad propositions. Of course there are exceptions and you'll find tons of advisers, consultants, bankers etc arguing that this particular merger that they have engineered falls in that category. Abecedare (talk) 20:22, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the advice. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages) Jesus Christ loves you!} 20:30, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

April 24

Is a first professional degree in Juris Doctor equivalent to an advanced bachelor’s degree?

Juris Doctor is a first professional degree, which explains why it’s not similar to Master’s degree in other disciplines even when they both require the completion of undergraduate coursework. Is first professional degree equivalent to some kind of an advancedItalic text bachelor’s degree? And if yes, does it mean that your undergraduate degree is merely means to get to law school?Rja2015 (talk) 13:33, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In the United States, a JD is probably more like a Master's or perhaps Master's Plus degree (that is, between Master's and Doctorate). It is not strictly a terminal degree, but it is also not an undergraduate degree. Legal education in the United States and Law school in the United States covers this a bit. Remember that there's no rule or law requiring a one-to-one correspondence between the certifications in various academic disciplines, and the "Bachelor's-Master's-Doctorate" progression in most academic disciplines does not align well with the Legal and Medical professions, each of which have their own training systems with their own terminology and their own hierarchy. Strictly speaking, there is no undergraduate law degree in the U.S., you get a bachelor's degree in a field related to your desired legal track (i.e. science for patent law, criminal justice for criminal law, accounting for tax law, etc.) and then enter law school. In law school, there would be two tracks: one for professional lawyers, and one for those who wish to study the law academically. For professional lawyers, the J.D. is it. You get your J.D. as the certification that you completed law school. There are no other steps. If you are entering academia, you would get Master of Laws degree or a Doctor of Juridical Science, which are academic and not professional certification. Professional lawyers who wish to become law school professors or legal academics may follow their J.D. (for Academia sake, it would be considered the equivalent of a Master of Laws) and get their Doctor of Juridical Science. --Jayron 32 14:25, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Some universities offer undergraduate law degrees – Bob Jones University, to my knowledge. These however are not recognised by the AB as adequate for attempting the bar exam. The Bologna Process (Bachelor, Masters, PhD) is commonest most countries in most subjects. The UK uses it for law: Bachelor's in Law, LPC (equivalent to a masters) and then a two year apprenticeship. The US system is adopted to a lesser extent elsewhere, like Canada & Australia. It has its advantages but it doesn't quite slot into the Bologna Process. Whilst it has its advantages, it's much more expensive and leaves a Bachelor's degree rather underused. 92.8.190.5 (talk) 12:36, 25 April 2015 (UTC) Further: yes, you could say a JD is nearly equivalent to an advanced Bachelor's Degree. In the UK, some law schools offer a two year, graduate Bachelor's degree for students who have already a bachelor's degree in a different subject. Queen's University, Belfast is a good example. Most students do the Bologna Process - three year Bachelor's, and then a Master's equivalent course. They are then an apprentice lawyer. However, if a student already has a Bachelor's degree in a different subject they can enroll in the Master of Legal Science - the same as a Bachelor's degree in law, except it only takes two years instead of three. It only covers substantive law, not the 'practising' bit that would be covered on the LPC. Queen's University also do a Juris Doctor: a degree in Northern Ireland law, but in the Amercian format. That's like an MSL, then a LPC in one.92.8.190.5 (talk) 14:24, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

transcribing a musical score from hearing only

I have limited musical training but a lifelong love of classical music. Recently I started listening in my car to music on a USB. The piece which is always played first when the USB initializes is Adagio in G minor. I just love it. It's seven minutes long, but most of the time I let it play, even though with some fiddling I could run down the song list and interrupt it.

After a while I started to understand the piece more deeply than other music Ive heard a lot of times. I've very much enjoyed coming to understand the structure, picking out the parts (even the viola) and anticipating the most dramatic parts (like the sudden loud da DUM in the middle).

Though this is a lovely piece of music, it also seems to be relatively simple as far as those things go, in part because it is played by a small ensemble. The question is: What level of skill would a musician have to have to transcribe the score from hearing it only (any number of times)? Would those be skills an undergraduate student might have? (I would think not.) What about an experienced musicologist? Another composer? --Halcatalyst (talk) 17:41, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's potentially something innate; see the bits about Mozart in Miserere (Allegri). Don't know how much training you'd need if this weren't innate. Nyttend (talk) 19:07, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Some people are no doubt better at it than others, but transcribing music by ear is a fairly basic part of a musician's training, starting with the aural tests in practical music examinations, which in the early grades ask candidates to sing back a short phrase, leading on to recognition of cadences and other chord sequences, and picking out the lower or iner notes of a chord, or the lower part of a phrase in two voices. Other exams may involve transcribing a phrase after a fixed number of hearings. So transcribing a piece such as the Adagio (often wrongly described as being by Albinoni) is perhaps not as much of a feat as it might seem to a layman: it might be hard to reproduce the exact notes in all parts (cheat sheet here), but a musician knows the "grammar" of the music, and so can pick out things like "that's the first half of a minor scale", or "that's a perfect cadence", and make plausible guesses about what's being played; this can be refined by multiple hearings. I would have thought that an undergraduate of a reasonably academic music course would be able to produce a reasonable approximation. Of course the difficulty depends on the complexity of the music: the Adagio is lightly scored, slow-moving and fairly predictable, which helps a lot. Consider this transcription of Art Tatum's playing: at first sight it seems almost miraculous that someone could work out all the notes that are being played, but to some familiar with the idiom it's more a case of picking out patterns rather than just a series of individual notes. As a vague analogy, consider the difference between copying a text in English as opposed to one in a foreign language that you hardly know: both use the same basic ingredients - the alphabet - but for the English text you see past letters and take in whole words and phrases, and so do the job much more easily. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 20:12, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's also a skill musicians pick up passively: that is, without being trained specifically to do it. At Grade 4 violin I could name notes like colours. Play a G, I knew it was a G. When I played the wrong scale in an exam, the examiner repeated which scale he originally requested I play and named the incorrect scale I had actually played. Mind you, a musician's training is critical to doing it properly so that for example you can recognise modulations (key changes) and ignore minor details such as trills.92.8.190.5 (talk) 12:25, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you all. The answer seems to be that regardless of formal education it certainly takes a lot of experience in music and or genius. Thanks especially for the link to the Tatum performance both that an the transcription are amazing. --Halcatalyst (talk) 18:27, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

New York and Appleton's

I've just created James McFarlane Mathews, but I need help. (1) How do we normally cite Appleton's when it's just part of a work? Here, I just copied the first and third paragraphs from Appleton's, with changes to make it sound like a Wikipedia article, while the second paragraph is adapted from Scouller's Manual, but written in my own words. In my experience, most stuff taken from these old PD encyclopedias is copied wholesale, without substantial additions from other sources, and simply tagged with {{Appletons}}, but that won't work here because I'm using inline citations. (2) Mathews was involved with New York's "Christian union council" and was the chancellor of the University of New York from 1831 to 1839. Do we have articles on either of these? City University of New York wasn't founded until after Mathews was out of office, and I don't know whether the Christian union council were some informal group or a big-name thing that is or was prominent. Nyttend (talk) 19:04, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The "University of New York" can be linked to New York University (NYU), which was known as the University of the City of New York for its first several decades. McFarlane was its first chancellor. It would make sense to add his name and link to his bio from the history section of the article on NYU. See the footnote beneath letter 274 in this source. There is also a reference in this book, authored by Mathews himself. Marco polo (talk) 20:24, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

April 25

Art object identification

I have exhausted my web search trying to identify a small art object in my possession. I can't work out how to download the 2 images I have to help with this identification so I will describe it and if you think you can help please email me directly and I will send you the images. Or someone can walk me through the process of downloading my 2 jpegs.

The object is small, approximately 85mm long by 60mm wide. It is shaped in a tear drop and is a shallow dish. It is made from a base metal. The dish side is enameled with gold striations. It predates 1945. I know that because it was gifted to me by a German architect who served in Italy during WW2. That is why I think it is from Italy. There is a makers mark on the bottom. I haven't been able to find that mark to verify its origin. The mark is a 'V' 'N' 'F' astride a bar with 3 branches. I have not been able to find anything that resembles this object in any search I have made. If you think you know what it is and what its purpose was I will send you some images to confirm that.

Thanks Jdb3853 (talk) 02:22, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(Lowercased; Baseball Bugs's joke left as-is -- BenRG (talk) 18:00, 25 April 2015 (UTC))[reply]

COULD YOU UPLOAD A PICTURE OF IT, EITHER TO HERE OR TO AN IMAGE-HOSTING SITE? ←BASEBALL BUGS→ 03:23, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

See this tutorial on how to upload images online. As a side note: writing in all capital letters on wikipedia, or anywhere online, is considered equivalent to shouting in real life and therefore rude. Try using normal syntax in future posts. Abecedare (talk) 06:18, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And it's unnecessarily harder to read. —Tamfang (talk) 10:26, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like the sort of dish that housewives put their rings into before doing the washing up. We have an article on Paolo De Poli who copied the far-eastern method of enamel on copper and since much of his designs was manufactured by VNF that probably nails it. --Aspro (talk) 13:18, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Could it be a spoon rest: [5] ? Those are used to place a stirring spoon, while cooking, when not in use, so as to not get germs from the counter on the spoon, or food on the counter. StuRat (talk) 15:56, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have two thoughts, but both rather depend on size of object. The first is a quaich, used in Scotland to taste whisky from. The second is a tea caddy spoon. The first one should be of the order of 3 - 4 inches across, but the second should only be about 2 inches by 1 inch. --TammyMoet (talk) 17:56, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I hope this is correct. My apologies for the cap letters. My daughter taught me better! These are the direct image links requested. Do they confirm or deny your ideas?

<http://i.imgur.com/ey4UrIB.jpg> <http://i.imgur.com/vHCUkLT.jpg>Jdb3853 (talk) 05:09, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Great images, I'd say that was far too ornate for any kitchenware. It looks like a trinket dish or a pin dish or a bon-bon dish. More interesting is the maker's mark. You didn't mention that below the mark is MAD NJ which seems to put the maker in New Jersey. My suggestion is that you take it to either an antiques shop or an auction house that deals with antiques and seek their advice, but hopefully somebody here will enlighten you. Richard Avery (talk) 07:29, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dignity, Glory & Honour

Hi there!
What's the difference between dignity, glory and honour?
Thank you for the discussion!
Calviin 19 (talk) 11:47, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Have you checked dictionaries for possible (multiple) translations into your mother tongues (French + German) and read about how some of the concepts behind the words are used in different fields (philosophy, religion, law, everyday speech, ...)? Or could you give some context? Kavod HaBriyot, for example, can mean all three, in a sense. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:57, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's the point. I want it in a general sense and in many specific senses. So a dictionnary isn't enough good for that and I don't want any traduction for those words.--Calviin 19 (talk) 13:37, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Offering many specific senses of a word is what good dictionaries do; have a look at these: glory, honour, dignity. And if you go to a library with an Oxford English Dictionary it will similarly show many senses, along with sample sentences in English. 184.147.117.34 (talk) 15:56, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cheshire and Flintshire historic placenames

Earl of Chester#Revenues lists various manors that contributed to the income of the earldom in 1714. Two I can't identify are "Medywick" (in Cheshire) and "Vayvol" (in Flintshire). Can anyone fill in these gaps? Thanks. (Incidentally, "Colshil" is now a tiny little place on the A548, which doesn't have its own article - it was obviously much more significant 300 years ago). Tevildo (talk) 21:40, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The history of Cheshire: containing King's Vale-royal entire, Volume 2 by Daniel King, William Smith etc. has a list which has "Farm of the town of Medwick" although I still haven't been able to find it. The same list also has ""Vayvol" which looks like an English version of a Welsh name. No luck with that so far. Alansplodge (talk) 22:28, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the reference - both this book and our article cite Dodderidge (1714), and the figures are in agreement, if not the names. I don't suppose "Medwick" might be Middlewich? Etymologically it's reasonable, but it's a rather greater change than the other names in question, especially considering it was "Mildestvich" in the Domesday Book, closer to "Middlewich" than "Medwick" is. I'm sure our combined resources will produce something. Tevildo (talk) 23:07, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Although the linked work is referring to the reign of King Edward III unless I'm reading it incorrectly. Alansplodge (talk) 00:04, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's true - I've fixed the date in the article. Tevildo (talk) 07:58, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

April 26

Lion in symbolism

How come lions survived in art and symbolism, and especially in heraldry, long after lions went extinct in Europe? 76.66.129.129 (talk) 11:22, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Because it's a fierce, impressive animal. It was gone from Europe, but that doesn't mean it disappeared from their memory or from traveler's tales. Unicorns and dragons are also found in art and symbolism - and Europeans saw even fewer of them. Matt Deres (talk) 12:17, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]