Talk:Safed

I changed the title to "Safed" because this is the most common English name, even used in the town's official tourism advertising.--Pharos 12:04, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Amazing, not a single mention of the rich Arab history. That will change. --Zero 13:36, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That's a very hostile comment, Zero. The article barely has any history section at all; I'm sure everyone would welcome some expansion. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:27, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It is more than just incomplete, it is written from the "Arabs don't exist" POV. This is most clearly seen from the phrase "long decline for Safed" when that was only true for the Jewish community in Safed. Sometime this week I'll expand the article. In the process I'll add more Jewish history too. --Zero 05:47, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The city has an English name. I aim for accuracy. The Arabic name is Safed, the English (original) name is Tsfat, which in Hebrew is Tzfat.

Guy Montag 04:43, 26 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We're not aiming for "accuracy" or for whatever may be the "original" English name but for the most common name among English speakers today (please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)). "Safed" is the most common name in English, and is, as noted above, the name used in the town's official tourism advertizing.--Pharos 04:48, 26 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The English name has been "Safed" with essentially no competition since the 1830s at least. I would like see any evidence that "Tsfat" was ever used as the English name before the 20th century. Moreover, the relationship between Tsfat and Tzfat is only that they are alternative transliterations of the Hebrew name צפת . The modern way of transliterating it would be Tsfat. --Zero 09:08, 26 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Safed is much more common in English, but does anyone pronounce it that way any more? Jayjg ^(talk) 03:19, 28 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but I don't know how to estimate frequency. Israelis usually use the Hebrew name even when they are speaking English, but I don't know if that counts. The spelling "Safed" is lots more common (more than 5 times in Google) and I don't know why anyone would write "Safed" yet say "Tsfat". While I'm typing: in the entire Palestine Post from its founding to its change of name in 1950, there isn't a single appearance of "Tsfat" or "Tzfat" that the search engine finds. Only "Safed" appears. --Zero 03:33, 28 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I, actually, would tend to follow Tzfat as the most accurate spelling precisely due to these phonetic considerations. See: zfat.co.il, zefat.ac.il, pisga-tzfat.org.il, cbs.gov.il (PDF), Ynet.co.il (note: tzfat@pog.org.il address). El_C 04:02, 28 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Note that Rangoon redirects to Yangon, even though the former produces 1.4 million to the latter's 630,000 google hits. El_C 04:18, 28 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We should follow the common English spelling in accordance with usual Wikipedia practice, even if you can find an example where the practice is not followed. A more similar analogy is that Rome is not a redirect to Roma. On a philosophical level, I'd prefer to see all place names primarily listed under the name used by the majority of the people who live there, but that is not the practice that Wikipedia follows. I bet that all the major English encyclopedias list this city first as "Safed". Btw, I don't know what phonetic considerations you refer to, and I don't know why that should matter in a written document like this one. Your links just establish that the Hebrew name is Tsfat, but we already knew that. --Zero 05:17, 28 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Good points, which cover my answer as per majority of inhabitans. Still, I notice that Encyclopædia Britannica titles it as Zefat. El_C 06:24, 28 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The first paragraph in EB would cause a revert-war here. --Zero 13:07, 28 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Shochad hu sheck gadol — Ilbartil al sheck kbir! You know how it goes. :) El_C 01:06, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

historical demography

(~1800) Arabs: ~5,000(?)* - "non-Jews" Jews: ~15,000.
(~1850) Arabs: not listed. Jews = ~1,500. (2,000 Jews die in an earthquake in 1837).
(1913) Arabs: not listed. Jews = ~11,000.
(1948) Arabs: ~10,000. * Jews = ~2,000.
If anyone can easily get ahold of the missing figures for and/or pertinent dates, that would prove instructive in grounding the history section to-be. I need to get around in tracking the contributors to צפת to verify some of their sources (national increase from 3% in 2000, as stated here, down to 0.9% in 2003, as stated there). I updated the total population and added some other figures based on 2003 (and 2001) figures. El_C 07:54, 28 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I just typed in a whole lot of figures and my browser crashed. Grrrr... Trying again:

Cohen and Lewis (1978) based on Ottoman taxation records: In 1525, 1093 housholds of Muslims, 719 of Jews. In 1567, 986 households of Muslims, 945 of Jews. In both cases, no Christians.
Parfitt (1987) gives more than 40 values for the 19th century, and a few others. Most are estimates made without counting (and so are inaccurate).
- In 1759 after an earthquake, 50 households of Jews (no figure given for Muslims).
- In 1812, 750 Jews in a total population of 3000. In 1816, 1500-1750 Jews in a total population of 5000-7500. The difference between these probably reflects the difficulty of estimating population without counting. Parfitt describes the preceding decade as one of steady immigration, so the figure you give of 15,000 Jews in 1800 is completely impossible.
- Before the 1837 earthquake, about 4000 Jews in a total population of 9000. The earthquake killed about 2000 Jews and many left, so by 1839 there were exactly 1338 Jews (Montefiore census). The latter figure was comprised of 601 Ashkenazim and 737 Sephardim.
- From 1840 to 1860, Jewish population 1500-3000 and total population 3500-7000 (in each case the range of several estimates).
- In 1878, ca. 5600 Jews based on Montefiore census.
- In 1882, two estimates give 7000-7200 Jews and 14000 total.
- In 1896, 6200 Jews (Parfitt calls this "authoritative").
Jewish Encyclopedia [1]: In 1904, 7000 Jews in 21,000 total. (Btw, their header is "Safed (Hebrew: Zefat)".)
A book of Tretsch quoted by McCarthy gives for 1906: 4600 Muslims, 10000 Jews, 400 Christians.
British figures:
- Census of 1922: 5431 Muslims, 2986 Jews, 343 Christians, 1 Other. I don't remember reading about massive departures of Jews from Safed in the 1900-1920 period; maybe I missed it, or maybe the 1906 and 1913 estimates are too high. JE's non-Jewish population for 1904 looks unlikely too. On second thoughts, we know that a large fraction (more than half) of the Jews who immigrated to Palestine in the "Second Aliyah" left again. Maybe that caused the hump we see in the figures?
- Census of 1931: 6465 Muslims, 2547 Jews, 426 Christians, 3 Others.
- British and Jewish Agency estimates for end of 1946: 9780 Muslims, 2400 Jews, 430 Christians. --Zero

That article does not provides for any authoritative, verifiable sources, whereas yours are, so obviously I'm inclined to go with them and discard any unsourced claims. I'll try to remember to contact the respective author/s and point them to some of these discrapencies. Good work! El_C 01:06, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hezbollah have been called terrorists, when they are a political party and army.

History of safed

some arabic references [2] claim that safad was first build by the kananites on (probably ruins) of trifot (a castle?), was mentioned in egyption scripts around 14th century bc, and in the roman times was know as syfa! any idea how true/untrue all that is?

Photos

I've uploaded three photos to the Commons, called Safed1.jpg, Safed2.jpg, Safed3.jpg . Please add them to the article. Thanks, Volland 22:06, 3 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]