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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) at 00:13, 1 June 2015 (Archiving 3 discussion(s) from Talk:List of metro systems) (bot). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archive 15←Archive 17Archive 18Archive 19Archive 20Archive 21→Archive 25

Number disagreement

The source I've added to the lead finds 148 cities with metro systems, and is up to date. This list has 160. Are there possibly light rail/commuter rail systems included in error? There is a breakdown by continent in the source as well. Mattximus (talk) 04:24, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

A couple of points here. First, there's no question that a straight-up list of systems would be enormously helpful here. At least LRTA provides something like that; unfortunately, UITP does not. Second, your provided reference does say "148 cities have metro systems", which is not the same thing as saying there are "148 metro systems" throughout the world, as some cities New York City, Seoul, Tokyo, etc. have more than one metro system. Third, we still have the quandary as to where to "draw the line" – for example, UITP includes Copenhagen (and some others) as "metro" systems, even though they are technically light metros, and should perhaps not be included here... Bottom line, though: this list has been "cleaned up" a lot over the past few months, as there are many fewer "questionable" systems included than there were a year ago, as pretty much all of the "commuter rail metro-like" systems have been culled from the list, for example. P.S. I'll change the number in the lede to 160, though – I'm guessing the "168" figure is old and out-of-date. --IJBall (talk) 04:45, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Ottawa Confederation Line

It would seem that the Confederation Line which is under construction in Ottawa would meet the criteria for a metro system under construction, both in the part currently under construction and in the planned extension (fully grade separated, frequencies under 10 minutes throughout the day, and high capacity trains). It is referred to as LRT by the city and the consortium constructing the line, but as the article notes, that does not mean that it is not a metro. Jamincan (talk) 11:45, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

To be clear, I'm not the unsigned editor who attempted to add it yesterday. I do, however, feel that IJBall's rationale for reverting the edit is contrary to this very page which explicitly states that the branding of the system is not a consideration for whether it should be included.
As the article notes, the distinctions between light rail and metro systems is not always completely clear, however, if the criteria for the list are clearly not being applied consistently (reviewing the talk page here suggests that may sometimes be the case), it does raise the question of the notability of the content since it is essentially just a curated list. Jamincan (talk) 12:03, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles are supposed to follow outside sources. That is why I was very clear in my edit summary yesterday when I removed the Confederation Line the first time – to wit: the official Confederation Line webpage categorizes it as "light rail", as do several news articles I saw yesterday. Calling a "metro" in spite of that would be a textbook case of original research. In a situation like this, I think we have to defer to the builder/future operator in how they categorize the line. Now, having said all that, if it's fully grade-separated, it might technically qualify as a "metro" or "light metro" system. But that doesn't matter – no outside source is calling it that. The truth is, there are some grade-separated systems that are still categorized as "light rail" by various sources for various reasons (and probably one to two dozen more that are categorized as "light metros" rather than full "metros") – when that happens we have to defer to the outside sources. P.S. Note that there is a previous discussion on the Confederation Line which I think has now been moved to this Talk page's archives: at that time I asked for a source to confirm the Confederation Line will be fully grade-separated – I don't remember such a reference being produced... So the criteria outlined at that page is being consistently applied – it's being applied how outside sources are telling us it should be applied. --IJBall (talk) 16:12, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
By that logic, every item on the list constitutes original research. The article itself states that whether it is referred to as LRT or a metro is not sufficient criteria for inclusion on the list, which means that we can only assess each system by the criteria set out in this page independently in lieu of an authoritative source for the list as a whole. I'm personally off the opinion that the entire article should probably be deleted - the terminology for mass transit systems is far too muddy and mass transit far too diverse to be able to produce a meaningful list - but for the time being, it should at the very least reflect what it claims to represent. Jamincan (talk) 21:05, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
No it doesn't – the UITP and LRTA references at the bottom of the page are our primary references for what goes in to the list. Other sources supplement that. There's no original research going on here, outside of possibly the "Under construction" list, which is controversial (several editors think it should be cut from the article – I'm probably in that camp, as I think it's usefulness is limited, and it's poorly sourced and divisive...) I'll refrain from responding to the rest of your post... --IJBall (talk) 21:17, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Just throwing in my two cents here, being from the country. Phase 1 of the Ottawa LRT is fully grade-separated. Platforms are metro sized @ 120-150m long so in the future 4 LRVs can be strung together to form a train. Looking at the planning docs it does look like a very metro standard project.[1] That being said, the fact that they use low floor LRVs and branded it as an LRT irks me a little. There are 3 systems that have LFLRVs and are called metros (Vienna U6, Budapest Metro M1, and the Seville Metro). All of them are branded as metros by their owners this shows willingness to keep the line at a metro standard in the event of service changes and extensions. In addition these lines stayed with LFLRVs due to legacy engineering constraints; Unlike Ottawa where an LFLRV is chosen even though it is new construction. This could mean that Ottawa's final 40km long system might have road crossings in the next phases and is actually an LRT system with a very high standard central corridor. IMHO I would leave it out until the system is complete and professional organizations have opinions on it.Terramorphous (talk) 23:04, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the concern on my end – that this system is going to end up looking more like Edmonton, or San Francisco, or Philadelphia, or Newark: a (true) central city "subway", but with LRT outer portions. But I really think it can't just be ignored that the operator calls it LRT. If the operator is calling LRT, our only choice is to demand an equally authoritative reference (e.g. UITP) calling it a "metro" before including it here... --IJBall (talk) 17:52, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Poll: Metro systems under construction section

OK, I'm getting quite tired of the controversy and just general errors this section is generating. I know its original inclusion in this article generated some opposition back in the day.

Can anyone make a good case why it should be kept?! (P.S. If you agree with me that the section should go, please indicate below with a "Support" response, or something...)

Bottom line: It is very poorly sourced, subject to many revisions (i.e. opening dates often get pushed back more than once, which becomes an editing hassle), and contains at least two systems (the Russian ones) for which there is a substantial chance that they may never open for service. Even were it sourced, the whole section is vaguely-CRYSTALBALLish.

So, unless someone can make a compelling case for keeping it, I'm going to be BOLD in the near future, and delete the whole dang section. --IJBall (talk) 23:31, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Against It really is not that hard to maintain a small U/C List. Perhaps we can make editors that really want to include a system to create a page for the under construction metro system with all the sources and information on it like most of the U/C Chinese Metros.Terramorphous (talk) 23:23, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
Actually, it is proving to be a lot of work to maintain, what with people wanting to add either light rail systems, or systems not even under construction yet. This section is the single-remaining most controversial part of this page (and maybe my personal biggest "time sink" as I'm constantly having to check to verify whether newly added systems really belong or not...). Considering how little cited it is, the section should just be junked. At the least, all of the unreferenced entries should just be deleted. But I'd like to see comments from the editors who opposed adding this section in the first place, to see if they still feel the same way on this issue or not. --IJBall (talk) 23:56, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, that's the next best solution. You probably won't find a UITP reference for these under construction systems. But articles in either Railway Gazette or IRJ, etc. should be possible to find for a lot of these. Those for which no reference like that can be found should be cut. At the least, totally unreferenced entries should be cut from here. But, what I'm really saying is – I'm likely not going to go out of my way to dig up references for the u/c systems myself, so someone is going to have to find references for them, or I'm just going to cut all the unreferenced entries in the near future. --IJBall (talk) 17:43, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
Against The list should should be kept, as it is simply useful for readers and not that hard to maintain. For poor sourcing there is [citation needed], not deleting whole section. I can feel "crystalballity" in a cases of proposed systems, but we have only under constrution ones in the list. --Jklamo (talk) 19:37, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
The unsourced systems have been in the list for months. At this point, I'm going to skip the {{citation needed}} step. Look, if people don't want to see a bunch of those system deleted, editors need only follow ColonialGrid's suggestion, and head to Railway Gazette, et al. and quickly find a reference for them. But, this time, I ain't doing that on my end... --IJBall (talk) 19:41, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Under construction metros that appear to be light not heavy

Macau appears to be a light metro system, not a full metro [2], it should be moved to Medium-capacity rail transport system. However, there is no 'under construction' section in that article, so I have left it for the time being. Should it be removed from this article without being placed in Medium-capacity rail transport system, or should be wait for an 'under construction' section to be added to Medium-capacity rail transport system? ColonialGrid (talk) 18:52, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

It appears that the Omsk metro is now to be built as a light metro [3], and therefore should be treated the same as Macau. ColonialGrid (talk) 12:07, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Omsk construction is frozen, but in any case it will not be a heavy metro.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:06, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
I think I'd advise cutting both Russian systems as, IIRC, both systems constructions are currently "frozen". --IJBall (talk) 17:10, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
As far as I am concerned, Chelyabinsk may go as well.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:37, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Light metros are tricky... But if you have references categorizing both systems as such, I'd probably be inclined to cut them from this U/C list for now. If another reference shows up in the future calling them truly "heavy", we can always add them back later. But let me make a strange request – can you add references for these "light metro" systems to the table first, before you remove them? – That way, if I decide to add an "under construction" section to the Medium-capacity rail transport system article, I'll be all set (including references) to do that. Thanks! --IJBall (talk) 17:10, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
  •  Done. I'll leave it up to you to decide when, and if, to remove Macau and the two Russian systems. I'm having a bit of a hard time finding sources to support the remaining systems under construction, but most are now cited and I'll keep looking. ColonialGrid (talk) 17:46, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, where do we stand on the University Link/Northgate Link. Despite its builders branding it as light rail, absolutely nothing that Sound Transit has made public about this line could lead one to believe it is anything other than light metro. Not only does it lack grade crossings from Downtown Seattle to its planned terminus at Lynnwood transit center, wikipedia's own page on the ULink contains the phrase "University Link is actually a subway." Every possible extension of ULink/North Link all the way up to Everett has been shown to be completely grade-separated by the animations provided by sound transit (all of which can be found on youtube if you take that to be a suitable reference). The only think I can think of that would place it comfortably in the light-rail category is if its route is combined with Central link (an actual light rail) into one continuous trip, which I have not heard about one way or the other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.116.1.11 (talk) 00:58, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

  • I don't know enough about this specific project to comment, however, under either interpretation it is not appropriate to be placed in this list which is exclusively for heavy rail metro systems. At a cursory glace though, as Northgate Link Extension is an extension of the existing Central Link in Seattle I would think it should be listed as part of that system at List of tram and light rail transit systems. You do bring up a perennial issue though, of at what point is a tram a light rail, a light rail a light metro, and a light metro a heavy metro. If it is deemed to be a light metro it should be included at Medium-capacity rail transport system (which I'm not yet convinced it is, as my reading is it will operate as part of the existing light rail system). ColonialGrid (talk) 07:58, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
My take: We should defer to how the owner/operator/builder categorizes such systems in cases like these. This is pretty similar to the Confederation Line instance – while it may be fully grade-separated, it's hard to argue when the operator self-categorizes it as "light rail". But the Seattle case is even more clearly light rail, as this is simply a fully grade-separated extension of a line that is currently fully light rail. San Diego's coming Mid-Coast Trolley extension is the same thing (fully-grade separated), but that won't suddenly make the San Diego Trolley (or even that part of it) "metro". --IJBall (talk) 16:52, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

One more recent thought on Seoul...

In looking at our newest UITP reference – UITP's Statistics Brief World Metro Figures (pdf) – I'm noticing that UITP considers Seoul Metropolitan Subway's "rapid transit" system to total approximately 410 kilometres (250 mi) in length. That means we're still including something in our Seoul's rapid transit system total that UITP isn't, as our current combined tally for Seoul's metro systems is 468.9 kilometres (291.4 mi). The most likely scenario here is that UITP doesn't consider the Bundang Line (52.9 km, 36 stations) to be true "rapid transit" either, as removing the Bundang Line from our currect count produces a revised total rapid transit system length for Seoul of 416 kilometres (258 mi), which seems to match UITP's Seoul tally pretty well.

So, does anyone object to me 'paring' the Bundang Line out of Seoul's Korail entry? If there are no objections, I'll make that revision in the near future... --IJBall (talk) 23:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I think we need to look closer into this before we do anything. The Bundang line is AFAIK separated for all forms of traffic. What about the Sinbundang Line?Terramorphous (talk) 23:43, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
One point to remember is that UITP doesn't count "suburban rail" systems (like RER and S-Bahns), even if they meet the other criteria. I wonder if they are excluding Bundang Line on that basis? As for the Sinbundang Line, it's too short – on its own, just removing that one from our total doesn't get it down to ~410km... --IJBall (talk)
I don't even know if you have been in Seoul, but Bundang Line is part of Seoul Subway's rapid transit. The official maps in the sites of Seoul Metro, SMRT, Korail, and Metro9 all states that Bundang Line (along with Jungang and Gyeongchun and etc) are all incorporated into Seoul Subway. In fact, even Incheon Subway Line 1 is considered part of Seoul Subway rapid transit, but I think this list has split it off due to the extreme name difference. Bundang is, for sure, in. To check the official map, go to this link.HanSangYoon (talk) 20:08, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Should there be a page that lists all the subway LINES?

I thought about creating a new page that lists all the subway lines independently. It would be great if there was one. HanSangYoon (talk) 20:21, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

This has already been discussed and decided on that it is not a good idea. The biggest issue is the definition of a Line which is very fluid. Some systems count branches as a separate line some don't. There are a lot of inconsistencies here.Terramorphous (talk) 21:50, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
I honestly don't get it, though. I think picking out lines from subway maps aren't that hard, and it's easy to get citations to them (the citations here on the metro system list page could help lead us to the citations to the metro lines), so inconsistiencies isn't much of an issue. Especially with the Wikipedia pages of the seperate systems already made, just take the link of their description, and head on to the area where lines are well-explained, which shouldn't be that hard to do. HanSangYoon (talk) 00:36, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Line 11 of the Shanghai Metro has a 2 branches but it is counted as a single line
If this same line was in the Munich U-Bahn It would be counted as 2 Lines; one for each branch. See, there is no standard. Terramorphous (talk) 03:11, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
For Shanghai Metro, the Y-shaped line is under one identity of Line 11, so yes, it is a single line. For Belin U-Bahn, check their lines. It consists of lines like U1, U2, U3...all the way to U8. Now if you look, the colors for U7 and U8 are mixed, but this format shows that rather than colors, the lines U7 and U8 is the way to go. So a y-shaped line in Berlin would just go by with it's Line name; not so hard to so, right?
(I have planned this page idea years ago, and so I know how to categorize lines like these) I understand that they're confusing, but if you go in deeply, there's actually a standard. HanSangYoon (talk) 04:15, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Just realized you mean a page that lists all the subway lines not # of lines. Disregard what I said earlier. However that list would be too big, maybe one for each country is better like what is done in Urban rail transit in China or Rapid transit in South Korea Terramorphous (talk) 05:34, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

  • I think the idea of an article listing all lines would incredibly large (too large), be problematic from a maintenance perspective, not overly useful from an educational perspective, and breach WP:NOTDIR from a Wikipedia policy/guideline perspective. Therefore, I oppose it. ColonialGrid (talk) 14:07, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
@Terramorphous: @ColonialGrid: I had actually created a prototype of the site previously, and it really didn't go too far...eitherways, just let me have a chance. I believe it would fill in information that's unknown yet. Have you noticed that there's nowhere that states of the longest (or the shortest) subway line in the world? And Colonial Grid, I agree Wikipedia is not a directory, but that doesn't strike the concept of a metro line page; you have a subway system page, both pages are doing the same function. HanSangYoon (talk) 21:11, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Why did you bother asking if it's a good idea if you're going to ignore what others say and do it anyway? This isn't collegial or consensus based decision making. For the record, lists of buses lines have previously been deleted per WP:NOTDIR, so there is precedent that lists of lines are deleted for being encyclopaedic. ColonialGrid (talk) 04:08, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Buses? Honestly I wouldn't mind, but it seems a lot more local than subway lines. I would understand if people get stunned when it comes to bus lines, since like there's probably gonna be more than a million of them around this world. Subway...I bet it's less than a thousand. If that guy was gonna create a bus line page, why not subway line pages?
And also, please don't escalate this matter, @ColonialGrid:. I was trying to ask if the people were going to be dramatically against the issue (as they did in Los Angeles Metro placard image incident). I was also trying to show these enthusiasts the alert that I'm onto a page project, so that this situation wouldn't be a reactive one. If I heard something like "Dear God, no" or "It is illegal to do so", then I would've thought twice. But seeing that the only worry here is encyclopaedic and length issues, I see it as long as I make sure these two issues are solved, then I'm fine (encyclopaedic issue, by your definition, means this page and other metro system page is not appropriate). HanSangYoon (talk) 21:00, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
OK then. "Dear God, no" The individual systems adequately contain that information, without it being duplicated here. This is not a "List of everything about every metro system in the world". Secondarywaltz (talk) 21:38, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
@Secondarywaltz: I'm not gonna heavily defend this, but then 1) Lots of information won't be known (ex. "What is the longest subway line in the world? What is the most used subway line in the world (ridership)? Shortest? Least used? Oldest line?), and 2) I never said to add onto this page of the list. I said make a new one (like a spin-off)... HanSangYoon (talk) 22:45, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
"Although editors should be encouraged to be bold and just do things if they think they're right, sometimes a lack of competence can get in the way. If the community spends more time cleaning up editors' mistakes and educating them about policies and guidelines than it considers necessary, sanctions may have to be imposed." - WP:IDHT
THIS is what you have proved to me....another backfiring action right there, ColonialGrid. And with the consensus, nowhere does it state that a consensus request from a single person is fine to be ignored. HanSangYoon (talk) 19:39, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
  • No ones ignoring your suggestion (to the contrary, people are responding), it's just that I (and others) disagree. You have suggested an idea and there is not a consensus (a general understanding) amongst editors that it should be carried out. This falls firmly into the purview of the bits of WP:IDHT which you glossed over: "[i]n some cases, editors have perpetuated disputes by sticking to an allegation or viewpoint long after the consensus of the community has decided that moving on to other topics would be more productive... Do not confuse "hearing" with "agreeing with": The community's rejection of your idea is not proof that they have failed to hear you." ColonialGrid (talk) 17:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
user:ColonialGrid As I told you, I do not have much feelings for this idea, and I don't feel any unfairness in the disagreeing. Is it possible to invite people into their own sandbox by using ping? Cause you could see it, then confirm if it's a good or a bad idea. HanSangYoon (talk) 00:36, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Tables

IJBall, I've reverted your fixed width additions to the tables as I don't think it helped with the layout. I think the table seems cramped and could have an improved layout, but don't see how forcing it to render differently will solve the aesthetic issue (it looks far too sparse at higher resolutions with fixed width). To me, the easiest way to make the table less cramped would be to remove superfluous citations (sometimes we have two cites where one would suffice); contract the [note x] style, possible just to [Nb x] with ridership notes becoming [R Nb x] and under construction becoming [UC Nb x]; and contracting terms or locations such as "Year of last extension" to "Year last extended", "Seoul Capital Area" to "Seoul" (we don't make explicit reference to other systems covering a metro area, which they do); and replacing FY in the ridership column with a dagger and note at the bottom of the table. These are all very small changes visually, but could help reduce the cramped or cluttered appearance of the table, improving its aesthetics and layout. ColonialGrid (talk) 08:59, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

No opinion. Which I guess means I won't object if someone wants to give this a go... --IJBall (talk) 20:54, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Weakly opposed. Seoul Metro has a massive amount of areas such as Incheon, Gyeonggido, Gimpo, Uijeongbu, and even as far as Cheonan, which are all not considered the city of Seoul; it's like LA Metro extending to places like San Diego, Bakersfield, and even as far as Las Vegas. So really, wouldn't it not make sense to call the area as 'Seoul' when they're actually considered 'Sugokwon' (수도권), or 'Capital Area'? HanSangYoon (talk) 00:57, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Metropolitan areas are often very large, and yes, the Seoul metro area is very large. The opening line of Seoul Capital Area is: "The Seoul Capital Area (SCA) is the metropolitan area of Seoul" further listing the area as 11,704km2 with 25million people. This is comparable to other large metro areas such as New York, Tokyo, Beijing, Shanghai, London, or Paris all of which are just listed by their city name in the table. Even medium sized cities such as Sydney and Melbourne in Australia have statistical areas of 12,367.7km2 and 9,990.5km2 respectively. We're also only talking about this in the context of the metro system, as defined by the table, which counts only Seoul Subway lines 1-9 and Korail's metro lines, which are far more contained within Seoul (although still serving the metro area to an extent). Your comparisons aren't fair or accurate either the distances are as follows from Seoul to Incheon (27km); to Gyeonggi-do (50.6km); to Gimpo (33.39 km - airport to airport); to Uijeongbu (19.7km); and to Cheonan (84.4km). The distances from Los Angeles to San Diego (193.6km); Bakersfield (179.4km); and Las Vegas (433.7km) aren't comparable. Also note that Incheon's metro is counted separately in this table. And that the UITP simply calls it Seoul. However, this issue notwithstanding, are there objections to the other proposals? ColonialGrid (talk) 04:47, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't know, really. I believe the capital area is what it's really called (as experience with traveling to Seoul and their surrounding areas), but really, I guess it doesn't matter too much. Still feel strange about the change, but how can I not care less. HanSangYoon (talk) 20:09, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I've done the changes to the notes and FY, but left the rest. I still think that Seoul Capital Area should be contracted to simply Seoul, but want go against consensus. However, what are feelings on combining notes? For example, Toronto, Seoul Capital Area, and Los Angeles have two notes for the same 'fact', is there opposition to combining then to just one note? ColonialGrid (talk) 12:15, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
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