Talk:Plame affair

The Plame affair page is linked from Jurist, an Internet site. Added April 20, 2006

Template:TrollWarning

Archives

• Talk:Plame affair\Archive1
• Talk:Plame affair\Archive2
• Talk:Plame affair\Archive3
• Talk:Plame affair\Archive4

Question (s):

Let me ask a quick question: why don't we have a single picture of Valerie Plame in this entire article? User:Ich Ich 18:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

(moved to own section by rewinn 17:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC) )

I think it'd be ironic to include the photo of an outed spy. Better, perhaps, to use a photo of her cover organization; at least it cannot be injured by further publicity. rewinn 22:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Analysis

If true, this could indicate that Rove identified Wilson's wife as a CIA employee prior to Novak's column being published. Some believe that statements by Rove claiming he did not reveal her name would still be strictly accurate if he mentioned her only as 'Wilson's wife', although this distinction would likely have no bearing on the legality of the disclosure. The White House repeatedly denied that Rove had any involvement in the leaks. Whether Rove's statement to Cooper that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA in fact violated any laws has not been resolved.

This unsourced bit of analysis looks interesting. Is it based on anything in print? --Uncle Ed 16:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The claim was floated around as a Republican talking point immediately after the controversy began in 2003, but it has been pretty much dropped by conservatives after enough ridicule. ("Rove didn't say Valerie was a CIA agent; he said Joe Wilson's wife was -- that could be anybody!") Stephen Colbert brilliantly parodied this when he pointed out Plame at the White House Correspondents' dinner. It quite obviously has no bearing on either the legality or the morality of the leak.--csloat 19:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's "original research" to point out that "Joe Wilson's wife" narrows down the field of women to only a handful of people - only one if Joe had no former wives.

This is a stunningly long article for something that has not been proven in any way. Maybe a couple paragraphs would be enough. Look at the Ted Kennedy/Chappaquidick article for a way to do this in a concise fashion. June 20, 2006 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.158.51.25 (talk • contribs)

I agree. But I think it's long, in part, because we're still in the middle of it. For example, there are a lot of tentative assertions, and counter claims, and balancing going on that can be excised once a number of facts come out at trial. There are other reasons, too . . . but I'm patient, and truly believe that a good amount of excizing can be done once the Libby trial concludes and Fitzgerald is finished. -- Sholom 13:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

What Republican knucklehead said (1) that Rove didn't identify Valerie but only (2) that Rove identified "Joe Wilson's wife"? Even a sometime fan of Republicanism such as myself would like to that in print! --Uncle Ed 19:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't remember who said it offhand, and I don't feel like looking for it at the moment, but that's my recollection. I also agree it's not original research -- in fact, I think there were many critics of the argument that we could quote directly if the point is important.--csloat 19:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

here is an excellent analysis of the entire plame affair from realclearpolitics.com:[1]

In fact, several new questions arise as a result of Bob Novak's disclosures.

If Fitzgerald knew by January 12, 2004 who the leaker was and that it wasn't Libby or Rove, why did he later call them to testify before the grand jury? Was it simply to determine whether he could trap them into making perjurious statements, something the law does not permit?

If Fitzgerald knew by January 12, 2004 who the leaker was and knew it wasn't Libby, why in August of 2004 did he represent to the Court that Miller's testimony was "essential to determine whether or not Lewis Libby... has committed crimes involving the improper disclosure of national defense information or perjury"? Keep in mind that Miller spent considerable time behind bars to compel her testimony.

If Fitzgerald has known since January 12, 2004 of the name of the leaker, why is he still protecting him, and why is he treating the leaker's (that is, Armitage's) source, who is almost certainly Marc Grossman, former Under Secretary of State for political affairs, the man reportedly the source for the first accusations against Libby and Rove, as an impartial witness to the events? In the discovery process it turned out that Grossman was a longtime friend of Wilson's, dating to their college days at the University of California--Santa Barbara. Is it likely that the famous prosecutor missed this fact?Anthonymendoza 02:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Investigation over?

Does this letter imply Fitzgerald is turning to other matters?Anthonymendoza 22:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

PDF won't open for me :( Arkon 05:39, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

No.--csloat 18:45, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Anthony, perhaps Fitzgerald continued his other investigations during this entire period. That might explain why it has taken him so long to accomplish so little. As far as I know, Fitzgerald has not dropped his prosecution of Libby. As long as that is moving forward, his office will continue to work. Since Rove has been cleared, I would not be surprised if they are no longer actively investigating any other persons. When asked that question specifically, his office declined to comment. RonCram 07:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

i didn't mean to imply libby's prosecution won't go forward, but Novak has now revealed that Fitzgerald has told him the investigation is over, thus enabling him to speak about his role.[2]Anthonymendoza 01:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Novak writes: "his investigation of the CIA leak case concerning matters directly relating to me has been concluded." I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet.

jump tĞo conclusions?? the investigation is over. there is no indication whatsoever fitzgerald is still actively pursuing anyone. except, of course, if one still believes leopold's article. 74.131.118.67 11:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

From Novack's article today, " I learned Valerie Plame's name from Joe Wilson's entry in "Who's Who in America." Ouch! Sounds like Wilson may have committed libelous actions against Rove. Novack's article Scribner 18:49, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The fact that Wilson had a wife is not what this case was about.

true. but one thing is now for certain. no one leaked her name. her name was made public through joe wilson's Who's Who entry. fitzgerald may have found this significant too, considering no one was indicted for a leak of classified information.74.131.118.67 11:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually her name was made public when she was born. It's on her birth certificate. The issue has never been Plame's name; it's her identity as a CIA asset hunting WMDs. rewinn 15:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

i think you missed my point. if the leak was an intentional, malicious act, don't you think the white house would have told novak her name? the fact that they didn't shows, and fitzgerald probably has found, that the "leak" was inadvertant and not criminal.Anthonymendoza 20:05, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

No. Why would the leaker need to give Novack the name when it's common knowledge Wilson has only one wife? Any reference to "Who's Who" is pointless. And the greater point is this: you never disclose classified information, either by confirming nor denying it. Giving Rove every benefit of the doubt, his obligation to the nation is to say "no comment" whenever a reporter says, "Hey I heard some secret information, is it true?" Failure to obey that rule may or may not be provably criminal, but it's a danger to our nation.

tell that to the new york times. but the fact her name wasn't disclosed shows she was likely revealed to novak in an offhand sort of way with no malicious intent, just as he describes it. intent is the key word here. as for this whole affair being a "danger to our nation", that's pure speculation that hopefully will be laid to rest in the civil trial. plame will have to reveal exactly what her role in the cia was in order to justify the lawsuit. Anthonymendoza 00:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

more proof the investigation is over: Former CIA agent Valerie Plame Wilson and her husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, filed suit in federal court today against Vice President Dick Cheney, his former Chief of Staff I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, top Presidential advisor Karl Rove and other unnamed senior White House officials, for their role in the public disclosure of Valerie Wilson's classified CIA status.[3] since civil suits are usually filed after criminal investigations are over, i think it's safe to say fitzgerald's prosecution of libby is the only matter left for his office in this investigation.Anthonymendoza 20:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Civil, follows criminal, however since there are NO criminal charges relating to the "outing", the civil process begins. Some Plame defenders remain in a total state of denial, still looking for those Fitzmas surprises that never materialized. Scribner 17:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

What is a Plame defender? Someone who thinks it's a bad idea to out an operation hunting WMDs? Perhap (if the topic is specualition) as with the O.J. case, the civil system will establish a truth that the criminal system will not. rewinn 17:51, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Why do keep inserting that "as of yet" regarding criminal charges. Do you know something Fitzgerald doesn't. You cannot accept the fact that no charges were brought against anyone for the alleged "outing" of Plame. We'll leave the "as of yet" ignorance in the article. Sorry Fitzmas didn't work out for you. Scribner 18:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

1. Why are you changing the subject - do you refuse to answer the question in this thread: "What is a Plame defender? --- the phrase you introduced? At to "as of yet" ... which is another question entirely .... it is entirely factual. The sentence from which you have repeatedly reverted the edit (without discussion) contains an implication that is not accurate without the edit. 3. Since the sentence in question merely repeats information contained in the next paragraph, since it is pov without the edit and since you don't like the edit that would make it npov, I have deleted the sentence. 4. If and when the investigation ends will be the factually correct time to unconditionally state the number of indictments Fitzgerald does or does not issue. 5. Now, I have answered your question; will you answer mine? rewinn 18:48, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

"As of yet" implies that there will be indictments. We don't know that for certain, and from analysis of the news, is also highly unlikely at this stage. "As of yet" probably doesn't belong. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:04, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

You have been misinformed. Look at page history. "As of yet" was not the text in question. The text was "as of this time" which is not the same as "as of yet". Agreed "as of yet" has inappropriate connotations; but the sentence before the edit connoted a significance to the number of indictments that it did not document (if the implication is that a paucity of indictments is significant, the text should document that assertion); "as of this time" connotes very little. But .... the sentence has already been deleted, mostly because it duplicated some of the content of the next paragraph, but also because of the difficulty of expressing this bit of trivia npov. rewinn 22:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

and this from last month: A source briefed on the case told the Washington Post that the activities of Cheney and his aides were a key focus of the investigation and that the vice president was not considered a target or primary subject of the investigation and is not likely to become one. There are no other outstanding issues to be investigated, the source said, though new ones could emerge...In a series of court filings in that case, Fitzgerald has indicated that he may call Cheney as a witness, an unsettling prospect that could expose the vice president to the uncertainties of being questioned in a criminal trial. The decision to decline to prosecute Rove effectively ends the active investigative phase of Fitzgerald's inquiry; Rove was the only person known to still be under scrutiny.[4] the investigation is over, barring any new developments. Anthonymendoza 00:23, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Was Fitzgerald duped ?

"If Fitzgerald knew by January 12, 2004 who the leaker was and that it wasn?t Libby or Rove, why did he later call them to testify before the grand jury? Was it simply to determine whether he could trap them into making perjurious statements, something the law does not permit?" [5]

Legal Fees

Libby isn't the only one reaching out to the public for assistance:

Coinciding with the filing of the Complaint, the Joseph and Valerie Wilson Legal Support Trust has been established. Funds from the trust will help the Wilsons pay the substantial legal costs forced upon them by the unlawful leaking of Mrs. Wilson's covert CIA status. The objectives of the trust include: Counseling them in connection with their potential witness testimony during the upcoming trial of Scooter Libby; and Helping them to prepare the civil suit that will uncover the truth surrounding the leak, ensure all relevant public officials are held accountable for actions depriving the Wilsons of their privacy and constitutional rights, and serve as a deterrent to similar wrongdoing being committed in the future. The Trust was established with the Wilsons' approval and provides that should the suit result in a payment to the Wilsons in excess of their legal costs, they will reimburse the Trust for all legal costs paid by the Trust. That money will then be distributed by the trustees to a charitable organization(s) that works to protect the rights of government whistleblowers. Contributions to the Joseph and Valerie Wilson Legal Support Trust can be given at www.wilsonsupport.orgor sent to P.O. Box 40918, Washington, D.C. 20016-0918.[6]Anthonymendoza 20:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Listing lack of indictment for grand jury in sessino is inherently pov

SListing the crimes for which Fitzgerald has not at this time issued indictments is not encyclopedic; it is also inherently pov since its only function is to make unprovable and unsourced implications about what indictments will be issued and what facts have been found. If this absolutely must be included in the article, it would not be in the heading summary, but in a lower section, such as "Basis for specualiation on what will actually occur". rewinn 17:46, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Civil Suit

does the civil suit even stand a chance of going forward? here's an analysis from Time[7]:

The Supreme Court has ruled that Presidents have immunity and that cabinet officers have "qualified immunity," meaning that they cannot be sued unless, for example, they violated someone's constitutional rights and had a pretty good idea they were doing so. That leaves open the question of whether Vice Presidents get immunity, but the consensus among constitutional scholars is that they do, so Cheney lucks out. As behind-the-scenes guys, Rove and Libby probably get only qualified immunity, which means they'll have to show that the complaint fails to state any legal claims, if they want to get rid of it quickly.

And they may succeed on some counts. Plame and Wilson contend, for example, that the Administration violated their free-speech rights by taking "retaliatory action" after Wilson, a former U.S. ambassador to several nations, wrote an op-ed piece questioning a central reason for attacking Iraq: President Bush's claim that Iraq tried to buy uranium from Niger to make a nuclear weapon. Presumably, the retaliation was the outing of Plame as a CIA official, but there's room to debate how much harm came of that act. She didn't lose her job or get demoted or suffer any other obvious damage. And even if the outing violated federal law (and there's still no evidence that it did), that wouldn't make it unconstitutional. So "the claim is much weaker than the typical claim" of harming speech through retaliation, says Eugene Volokh, a constitutional law professor at UCLA law school. If the judge believes the claim is weak enough, he will throw it out. --- Above Revision as of 01:36, 19 July 2006 by User:Anthonymendoza

The analysis however continues: Which is not to say that the couple has no case. On several of their claims ? that "vindictiveness and illegitimate animus" caused the Administration to treat them differently from others in similar positions, for example, or that the defendants wrongfully disclosed a private fact about Plame ? there may be enough ambiguity about what really happened to propel them beyond a motion to dismiss and into discovery, a process that allows each side to demand piles of information from the other. That's a prospect an already shaky White House surely wants to avoid.

Let us not be so quick to dismiss the outing of a CIA agent as no harm to that person. There are places in the world where CIA agents can come to harm and where Plame (and her children) would now be well advised never to visit. rewinn 04:26, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

if the Wilsons can get the lawsuit into the discovery phase, it will be very significant. but from every analysis i've read, that likely wouldn't happen until after 2008. and since no criminal charges were filed with regards to the outing, each defendant in the lawsuit could plead the fifth if they wished too, and the Wilsons couldn't do anything about it. so it's a long shot for sure. but as a political liability for the white house, i think this plame affair is at an end. Anthonymendoza 01:14, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Brewster Jennings material in intro

I don't think the introduction should have a full paragraph devoted to the cover status of Brewster Jennings, but since another editor put it there, I just editted it to eliminate what appeared to be non sequiturs (the purpose of a front company is to look like a real company, so you make sure people put it on their internet resumes ... and send people to conferences so they can acquire the information for which the front exists.) Someone else could move the para, if you agree. rewinn 14:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Cheney's Involvement

I've read it alleged that Cheney's office had nothing to do with Wilson's trip to Nigeria. Has this been explored? unsigned comment by 05:17, 25 July 2006 72.192.138.6

Unsourced allegations are not encyclopedic. There is no need to explore this until it is reliably sourced. rewinn 06:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Anon rewrite

I found the anon rewrite (Be Bold!) to have both the original material balanced with more perspective from Novak's side and the Senate investigation. For example, the Novak article really questioned why Wilson was sent. It was tangential (but important) that Plame's name and CIA affiliation was mentioned. The rewrite is more aligned with the tangential release and therefore closer to the facts and tone of reality. I found it more neutral and balanced. It didn't subtract any information but added perspective. Comment? --Tbeatty 07:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The anon editor completely shifted the POV of the article to that of Bob Novak. The previous version already mentioned the information that Novak questioned why Wilson was sent. The rewrite states bizarre conspiracy theory as fact -- e.g. "Showing that Wilson's wife recommended him for the mission to Niger was material to the story, since it brought into question the objective nature of the trip, and demonstrated that Wilson's trip was part of an organized effort to debunk the administration's claims." It also deletes material on the other side -- e.g. "Opponents counter this speculation by arguing that such officials would still have a duty to diligently avoid exposing undercover officers or other confidential information." and "However, Cheney's office has since admitted that the trip was the result of a Vice Presidential inquiry." The rewritten passages are

all focused on debunking Wilson. I understand some here don't like Wilson, which is all fine, and that some even believe the bizarre conspiracy theory that states that Wilson and Plame predicted a year ahead of time how Cheney's office would respond to published statements (that have all turned out to be true BTW). It's fine to have different viewpoints on these things, but our edits to the page should focus on accurately stating the various viewpoints, not on hammering one viewpoint and deleting evidence of another.--csloat 07:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it has anything to do with liking or disliking Wilson or Novak. It's important to understand and make sure it's caputred in WP the motives and reasons. According to Novak, he was trying to show that Wilson was not sent by the VP's office, but by CIA without the VP's knowledge. He also was trying to show that Wilson was selected for the job, not by the VP's office but by CIA and the connection to CIA was Wilson's wife. I didn't read any conspiracy theories in those edits but I may have missed it. This article, epsecially in the intro, does not show the stated intent of Novak. Instead it implies a more sinister motive of conspiracy within the VP's office to intimidate Wilson. I don't think it is the place of WP to assert any conspiracy theories. Give wilson's view. Give Novak's view. Give CIA's view. The intro lacks any perspective except Wilson's and that is not neutral or complete.--Tbeatty 07:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The conspiracy theory is pretty clear in this sentence -- "Showing that Wilson's wife recommended him for the mission to Niger was material to the story, since it brought into question the objective nature of the trip, and demonstrated that Wilson's trip was part of an organized effort to debunk the administration's claims." I'm not objecting to it being a conspiracy theory - after all, Wilson believes Libby conspired with others to discredit him through Novak - though I do think that one theory is more far-fetched than the other. I think it is fine to present the information that Novak was trying to show that Wilson was not sent by the VP (though Wilson never claimed the VP sent him), but that is already in the article without having these pov-pushing edits. Adding a sentence to make this point about Novak's alleged intent clearer would be fine, but I see no reason to delete the additional material I quoted above or to insert the POV that Novak was right about all of this. If you have POV issues with the intro, address those, but these anon edits do not help.--csloat 08:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The introduction is already too big. Theories why the event occurred would be better in the body of the text. rewinn 16:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

As the anonymous editor, I wanted to correct what I saw as Wilson-biased areas of the text, to provide a more balanced perspective. The point of Novak's article was to cast doubt on Wilson's qualifications and the accuracy of his report, and revealing the identity of Wilson's wife was incidental (but material) to this point; however, the numerous descriptions of the event generally say (paraphrasing), "Wilson submitted a report questioning the Administration, and eight days later, Novak wrote an article revealing the identity of Wilson's wife." This strongly implies that the entire purpose of the article was to reveal Plame's identity, as a way to get back at Wilson. Since many will not read the article past the introduction, I think it is important that the facts are presented in a non-biased, factual manner, not a factual declaration that strongly implies maliciousness on the part of Novak or the Administration. Other edits were similarly themed, such as the excerpt that stated, "Wilson concluded then that there "was nothing to the story," but the Bush Administration nevertheless reasserted the claim that Saddam had sought uranium from Niger." Again, that implies that the Bush Administration heard Wilson's report and intentionally ignored it, when the truth is (as stated in the Senate Intelligence Report) that Wilson's reported his findings to the CIA, who did not then pass those findings along to the Administration. Saying "the Bush Administration nevertheless reasserted the claim" is inaccurate and unnecessary, since the Administration did not receive any new information that would cause them to doubt that claim. The article implies a causal relationship that is simply not there. I would recommend changing these instances back to accurately reflect these points, since apparently my earlier changes were overruled.

Your earlier changes included deletions and additions that had nothing to do with the points you make in the above paragraph. The issue of Novak's piece being written to discredit Wilson rather than to expose Valerie has been dealt with, I believe, but the other changes you made seemed to state conspiracy theory - that Plame and Wilson planned all from the beginning this to hurt the president (or something) - as fact. It may be true that Novak believes that nonsense, but what he believes should not be stated as fact. You are correct that this rule cuts both ways; certainly Wilson's beliefs should not be stated as fact either. But I don't think that was the issue in your changes.--csloat 21:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The issue in my changes was exactly as stated: to remove the strong implications that Novak's article was written with the express intent to "punish" Wilson for his article. As for the "conspiracy theory" that has been stated as fact, again, let me rely on the findings of the Senate Intelligence Committee that contradict the article: Wilson was a former ambassador, not a current ambassador, when he was sent to Niger; Plame did in fact "[offer] up his name" for the trip; she specifically talked to her husband and said, "there's this crazy report" about a purported deal for Niger to sell uranium to Iraq, which strongly implies that she expected Wilson to refute the report, not objectively determine its truth; the administration was not specifically informed of Wilson's findings upon his return, which makes the "Bush Administration nevertheless reasserted the claim" phrasing unnecessary and misleading; Wilson's investigations consisted of asking Nigerian officials if they had been involved in any uranium transfers, or if any uranium had been missing; although Wilson concluded that there was "nothing to the story," CIA officials actually found evidence in his report that supported the claim that Iraq had been seeking to buy uranium from Niger; Wilson claimed that names and dates were wrong on the CIA documents, but it was later revealed that he had never seen the CIA reports and had no idea what names and dates were on the report; Wilson admitted that he may have "misspoken" when claiming that the documents were forged; the CIA analysts "did not find Nigerien denials that they had discussed uranium sales with Iraq as very surprising because they had no expectation that Niger would admit to such an agreement if it did exist. The analysts did, however, find it interesting that the former Nigerien Prime Minister said an Iraqi delegation had visited Niger for what he believed was to discuss uranium sales."; the CIA did not brief the Vice President on the report, because they did not think the report added any new information to clarify the issue. These are all points taken directly from the Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Intelligence. If these facts were added to the article (as I was trying to do piecemeal), as well as a link to the report in question, it would clarify the importance of Wilson's report, and the fact that Wilson claimed his report proved that the Administration was lying, even though the CIA did not feel the report added any new information to the issue, and thus did not pass it on to the Administration. Frankly, when you point out how irrelevant Wilson's report was to debunking the Administration, it makes it seem much less likely that they sought to "punish" Wilson for it, and more likely that they just wanted to point out its irrelevance. ---unsigned content apparantly added by 17.228.23.143 at (22:30, 26 July 2006)

The introduction is still too long. The other points are not worth arguing. rewinn 23:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean, the other points "are not worth arguing"? I made changes to the article that were subsequently removed; I am now trying to discuss those changes, pointing out that they are correct, so that they can be reinstated. Therefore, I would like to continue the discussion for that purpose.

For heaven sake, the other points are all covered in the article; I have no wish to debate all this again. We had this debate over a year ago and your side lost it then. You are picking and choosing what you like from the SSCI and ignoring the rest. The CIA disputed many of the claims you state as fact. I never said the report was irrelevant to debunking the admin, and I'm not concerned with trying to convince you that your conspiracy theory is bogus. To me it is illogical to believe that in 2002 Valerie and Joe Wilson (the latter of whom had worked under Bush Sr, been called an American hero by the President, and had publicly faced down Saddam Hussein at the outset of the Gulf crisis) suddenly decided to plot against the Bush Administration and successfully predicted what Bush would do in his 2003 State of the Union speech in order to make the plot come together. But if Novak believes that, fine, let's indicate that Novak believes that, but let's not pretend that it is therefore true. What we know for a fact is that the VPs office asked the CIA to look into the niger issue, that the CIA denies that Valerie Wilson had anything to do with Joe Wilson being sent, and that Novak believes otherwise. Let's not blow the rest of this out of proportion. Oh, yes, and former ambassadors are called "Ambassador," just like you would call Bill Clinton or Gerald Ford "Mr. President." But really, again, none of this belongs in the intro.--csloat 00:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Some of the points may be mentioned in the article, but others are completely ignored in favor of language which, while technically factual, strongly implies malicious intent. I am not "picking and choosing" from the SSCI; I am specifically stating their conclusions that they arrived at based on all the evidence, including CIA testimony. If you have evidence that refutes their conclusions, then I would be glad to hear it. As for the plot being "illogical,"?no, I don't think that the Wilsons plotted against the Bush Administration and predicted what Bush would mention in his State of the Union speech; however, I do think that Joe Wilson has overstated both the evidence that he found from his trip to Niger (which, as the CIA has pointed out, actually bolstered the case that Iraq was seeking to buy uranium from Niger), and the fact that the Bush Administration knew about his findings (which the CIA admitted were not deemed important enough to report to the administration). I think these are important facts to point out. Oh, and while I am sure that you would address a former ambassador as "Ambassador,"?you will still refer to him as the "former ambassador"; you don't see news reports about Carter saying, "The President met with foreign officials today...."

Since you refuse to sign your work, there is no point in responding. As an exercise in futility, however, I will point out that you refuse to source your speculation and, at best, are offering original research as to the motive for outing Plame. This is not encyclopedic. rewinn 19:19, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The stated “motive for outing Plame” is cited numerous times in the current article: Wilson and others claim that Plame was outed because the Bush Administration believed that Wilson’s findings were a threat to their credibility. I am simply suggesting including the facts that show that Wilson’s findings were not a threat to their credibility, and letting the reader decide whether the suggested motives are accurate. So again, why are you objecting to the inclusion of cited, verifiable facts in the article?

Since you refuse to sign your work, there is no point in further discussion. Anon is inherently unreliable. rewinn 21:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Have any of you actually read the Novak article? It did not discredit Wilson. 71.212.31.95 22:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the original article by Wilson, and Novak's response, should both be linked on the page. As for whether the Novak article discredited Wilson, I offer the following quotes from the article: "CIA officials did not regard Wilson's intelligence as definitive, being based primarily on what the Niger officials told him and probably would have claimed under any circumstances" (supported by the Senate Intelligence Committee findings). It also mentioned the Iraqi delegation seeking to establish commercial contacts with Niger, which was also supported by the Intelligence Committee findings. Both of those seem to discredit Wilson's claims that his trip to Niger proved that the Administration was lying.

Oddly enough, both of those article are linked to this page, and have been for months. As for whether Wilson accused the Administration of lying, I suggest you read the actual Wilson article: "Based on my experience with the administration in the months leading up to the war, I have little choice but to conclude that some of the intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat." rewinn 23:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I never disputed that Wilson accused the administration of lying; I simply said that his findings did not prove that the Administration was lying. Those are two different things. Since his accusations against the Administration were hardly damning (as the Senate Intelligence Committee report supports), it seems unlikely that the Administration would undertake a smear campaign against him. It seems far more likely that they would simply point out the errors in his evidence. Based on the Intelligence Committee report, I think that the article should be changed to more clearly point out where Wilson's findings were in error, and how they did not, in fact, prove that the Administration was lying. ---The previous is an unsigned anonymous comment

His accusations were not of lying but of exaggerating, to be precise, but it doesn't matter - what was "damning" here was that the President used 16 words in his SOTU speech that he later had to admit should not have been used. It doesn't matter though - there is no need to speculate on why the admin undertook a smear campaign that may have included criminal activity; that cuts to questions of motive that we really can't determine.--csloat 00:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

There is "no need to speculate on why the admin undertook a smear campaign" because there is no evidence that it did. 71.212.31.95 01:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The President used 16 words that the CIA had approved, and which continue to be true: The British government believed at that time, and still believe, that Iraq was seeking to buy uranium from Africa. As for questions of motive, when you demonstrate (as Novak did) that Wilson's article was really not a threat to the administration, then that removes the motive for a smear campaign. Thus, it is very significant to point that fact out.

Dear anonymous :

1. Please sign your contributions as per wikiPolicy.
2. This article is about Plame's outing; whether Wilson's findings were correct has nothing to do with the outing and is therefore not relevant to the article
3. Your theory seems to be that Plame wasn't outed because, according to you, the Administration had no reason to attack Wilson. Can you source your claim? rewinn 01:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this article is about Plame's outing, and one theory is that Plame was outed as retaliation for statements he made against the Administration. Another theory is that Plame's name was revealed in the process of demonstrating that Wilson's findings were not correct. Therefore, whether or not Wilson's findings were correct has everything to do with it, since it is the motive on which the entire accusation rests. As for the source for my claim, it would seem to be self-evident: If the Administration was trying to punish Wilson because his accusations were threatening them, then if his accusations were false, they wouldn't have any reason to punish him.

Fitzgerald's indictment charging Lewis Libby with perjury says this: "On or about June 11, 2003, Libby spoke with a senior officer of the CIA to ask about the origin and circumstances of Wilson's trip, and was advised by the CIA officer that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA and was believed to be responsible for sending Wilson on the trip." This would seem to indicate that the CIA, not the Cheney cabal, was the source of the claim that Wilson's wife was involved in sending him to Niger. 71.212.31.95 01:47, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Except (1) Libby is being charged with perjury, so his statements are hardly credible, though they do establish evidence of perjury (2) the CIA took the official position (as documented in SSCI) that Plame did not send Wilson on the trip, (3) everyone else involved - Plame and Wilson first and foremost - confirm that Plame did not send Wilson on the trip, and (4) Plame had no authority whatsoever to send Wilson on the trip; the most we have is that she may have "offered up his name," but even that is contradicted by CIA statements to SSCI. It seems that Plame may have been asked about the choice of Wilson after the decision was made and that she then offered her opinion about it. Hardly the making of a conspiracy. But you're avoiding the real problem with this conspiracy theory, which is, how the hell did Plame know a year ahead of time what Wilson would find in Niger and what Bush would say in his SOTU speech? The question is purely academic since, as I have said, there really is no use in debating this here -- the article should simply state who said what and leave it at that. We're not going to resolve whose conspiracy theory is less sound.--csloat 02:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, since the article "should simply state who said what,"?then after Wilson reported his findings to the CIA, why don't we point out that the CIA never reported those findings to the Administration, didn't feel that they shed any new light on the subject, felt they actually bolstered the case, and remove the part where it says that the Administration continued to claim that the story was true? After all, since the CIA findings weren't reported to the Administration, why would they have any reason to change what they believed? As it is phrased now, it implies that Wilson's findings were immediately reported to the Administration, who intentionally ignored them.

The quotation above is from Fitzgerald, not Libby. And neither the position taken subsequently by CIA officials or statements by Plame and Wilson refute the assertion that Libby was told by a CIA official that Plame was believed to be responsible for sending Wilson on the trip. The point is not whether Plame actually was or was not reponsible for Wilson's trip, but whether the idea that she was responsible for the trip was invented by the White House to discredit or punish Wilson. The evidence is that it was not. 71.212.31.95 04:35, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

It's from Fitzgerald reporting what Libby said. And the CIA has refuted the assertion that Plame is responsible for sending Wilson, no matter what Libby claims a CIA official told him. And Plame had no authority to send him. Your claim about the White House's motives does not seem relevant to the discussion, nor is it something that we can possibly figure out anyway.--csloat 05:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

What is the basis for your claim that Fitzgerald was merely reporting what Libby said? Moreover, the infamous Air Force One Memo showed that the State department liason also believed that Plame was responsible for Wilson's trip. There is no evidence that the idea originated in the White House. The claim about supposed White House motives is not mine, but Wilson's, and is fundamental to the allegations which are the subject of this article. That seems relevant to me. 71.212.31.95 16:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The claim about the White House's motives is central to the discussion, since it is the entire basis for accusations that the Administration tried to smear Wilson because they felt threatened by his article. If Wilson's article was not true, and he was not the person "who did the most damage to the Bush II administration," then why would the Administration have any motive to smear him? Of course, if you just assume they were trying to smear him (as many here seems to believe), then no, I guess you don't need to discuss motives, since you've already assumed they are guilty. However, for everyone else, it seems logical to present the evidence, and let people make up their own mind about whether or not the Administration started a smear campaign.

Just a random point, but the SOTU thing is not neccessarily in regard to Niger. The Brits still stand by it. Arkon 03:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The Brits may stand by it, but they have never indicated another source for that information. At issue, of course, is not the brits, but Bush, whose admin has since backed away from the statement and indicated that the "16 words" should not have been uttered in that speech. I'm not sure why the Brits allegedly stand by it - perhaps to avoid embarrassment - but the only one still standing by it in this country seems to be a Brit himself. It's kind of funny how many people are still invested in proving that this was true three and a half years later, when we have had every opportunity to find the alleged nukes and/or actually see them used against us, and we have found nothing. It is clear now beyond a shadow of a doubt that the 16 words were false, and yet some people still will bend over backwards to claim that they were still true. Amazing. Makes me want to re-read Eric Hoffer and Charles Mackay.--csloat 05:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

What's funny to me is that people are still trying to disprove something as innocuous as a claim that Iraq was looking to buy uranium from Africa, and thinking that Joe Wilson interviewing Nigerian officials somehow constitutes proof. And how does not finding nukes prove that Iraq was not looking to buy uranium? I don't own a Ferrari; does that prove I haven't gone shopping for one?

Talking to everyone in Niger that would have anything to do with such a sale would be helpful, certainly, and if the claim was "innocuous," how is it that it was mentioned in a SOTU as a justification for a war that has at this point claimed the lives of at least 2500 American servicemen and women, and 40,000 Iraqi civilians? That doesn't sound innocuous to me.--csloat 07:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

As the CIA stated after Wilson’s findings were reported, denials by Nigerian officials were hardly conclusive proof of anything, since they would likely deny it even if there were a connection to Iraq. And in fact, CIA analysts found that Wilson’s report actually supported the claim that Iraq had been looking to by uranium from Niger. So, again, the claim from the State of the Union address has not been disproven, and certainly not by Wilson’s report. When are these facts going to be entered into the article, such as, “The CIA did not believe that Wilson’s report contained any new information on the subject, and so those findings were not passed on to the Administration”? Or is there a particular bias that is keeping these facts from being included?

How did this happen? I said I did not want to try to convince you that you are wrong because it is pointless, yet here I am sucked into this argument. You are distorting things, of course; it is well known that Iraq sought uranium from Niger in the 1980s but that is not what is at issue in Wilson's trip. But that is neither here nor there and there is no point in arguing about it; the real issue is, what do you think needs to be changed about the article? I am not sure where the quote you cite comes from, but if it is from the SSCI or some other official source, I don't have a problem with it being included in the article. The rest of this I am done arguing about - you are entitled to whatever superstitions about Iraq, Niger, the CIA, Joe Wilson, and Lee Harvey Oswald that you desire to hold.--csloat 08:29, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

What am I distorting “of course”? As stated by the SSIC report, Wilson’s report cited the Nigerian Prime Minister saying he was approached in 1999 to meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss “expanding commercial relations” between Niger and Iraq, which he took to mean that they wanted to discuss uranium yellowcake sales. From this, the CIA believed that the claim that Iraq sought uranium from Niger was actually bolstered, not refuted as Wilson had claimed. As for the quote from the SSIC, here it is: “Because CIA analysts did not believe that the report added any new information to clarify the issue, they did not use the report to produce any further analytical products or highlight the report for policymakers. For the same reason, CIA's briefer did not brief the Vice President on the report, despite the Vice President's previous questions about the issue.” Based on this fact, I would also like to remove the phrase, “…but the Bush Administration nevertheless reasserted the claim that Saddam had sought uranium from Niger” following the statement that Wilson concluded that there “was nothing to the story.” The second half of that sentence is misleading, since it implies that the Administration received the report (which they didn’t), and that they intentionally reasserted something that they believed was false (which they didn’t, since they were never presented with that evidence in the first place). This is only one of several corrections that I believe are appropriate, but it’s a start. Objections?

I don't have time to debate you on these things, and my arguments will not change your mind anyway. Do what you want; if I see blatant editorializing disguised as fact, I will revert it. If I see falsehoods stated as truths, I will remove them. Other editors will do the same. I am not the gatekeeper of this article. But you'd better be able to source your claims if you expect them to stay.--csloat 09:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Since your responses of “I don’t have time to debate you” and “my arguments will not change your mind anyway” aren’t valid arguments against the facts I cited (with sources), so I’ll assume that is your gracious way of conceding the facts I have mentioned. Since I was told to present proposed edits here for discussion, I was expecting better than accusations of “superstition” and other methods of avoiding the factual citations I mentioned. I’ll make sure that I cite my sources when I make the changes.

Since you refuse to sign your work, there is no point in further discussion. Anon is inherently unreliable. rewinn 21:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not I sign my work does not change the validity of my arguments. I have shown that I am consistently reviewing this discussion, and presenting my case with factual evidence supported by citations. On the other hand, you and others accuse me of “superstition,” and make excuses to avoid refuting the facts I present. What is the point of discussing proposed changes here, if this is the response that I get?

Whether you sign your comments does not change the validity of your arguments, and won't change the substantive response you get, but it would make the discussion page easier to follow. It's about clarity, not credibility. Just include four consecutive tilde (~) characters at the end of your comment and a signature will be added automatically. 71.212.31.95 23:29, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Your refusal to sign your work while posting tenditious materials identifies you as a troll, to be ignored. If you are serious about being encyclopedic, you will learn the customs. Your claim that I used the word "superstition" lacks factual basis. rewinn 22:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm the one who used the word superstition to refer to the anon's belief in bizarre conspiracy theories that involve Plame and Wilson having a crystal ball. I refuse to try to convince the anon that he is wrong; he is entitled to believe whatever he wants about this. I am not conceding his arguments; I am simply refusing to debate them. I'm sure he can find another worthy opponent. I am more interested in the article than the talk page; if I see him putting disinformation on the article it will be reverted. It's that simple.--csloat 22:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I concede that I need to learn the customs, but I believe my arguments prove that I am not a troll. As for my “bizarre conspiracy theories that involve Plame and Wilson having a crystal ball,” you are completely mischaracterizing the evidence against Plame and Wilson. But of course, if I go ahead and respond to your argument, you will respond with “Oh, but it’s not worth my time to argue with you.” So you continue to make your arguments, but refuse to argue when they are challenged. As for the article, I am also interested in it; however, when I made changes previously, those changes were subsequently reverted, and I was told to present proposed changes here for discussion. So I did that, and was told to cite my evidence. I cited my evidence, and was told that it wasn’t worth your time to argue with me. And now I’m being told, “I am more interested in the article that the talk page,” which seems to imply that I should just post changes directly to the article. So which is it? I tried both methods, and have been told each time to try the other instead. Or is this all because I haven’t signed my work, and suddenly everything will be sunshine and light if I do, with my proposed changes greeted with thoughtful discussion and an open mind? Based on the evidence so far, I highly doubt it.

The one thing I can tell you is that no matter what you do, everything won't be "sunshine and light." Enjoy!--csloat 23:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Anon, you are getting the run around. That's how it works here. You will not get thoughtful discussion, only endless debate. You will never get your edits past the left-wing censors who control the contents of this article. 71.212.31.95 00:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I've tried thoughtful discussion with him and there was no point - I've learned the hard way that this isn't a place to try to convince people on the opposite side of the political fence that they are wrong. I don't care to convince the anon he is wrong. But nobody is censoring anyone! I have said over and over that he is welcome to put in whatever sourced and relevant claims he wants. I only objected to blatant editorializing disguised as fact. I am not the gatekeeper of this article and you or he do not need my permission (or the permission of any "left-winger") to edit it. In fact, this particular article has been dominated by pro-Libby voices (I hesitate to describe them as "right-wingers," as some conservatives take offense at being identified with the pro-treason wing of the Republican party). It has not been censored by the left; there are voices on both sides but, if you look at the debates over the last year or two, there have been more pro-Libby editors involved in this article than pro-Plame (again, these terms are inadequate to describe the two sides here). Now, if you have something to contribute, do so. If your contribution is sourced and relevant and you are not posing opinions as fact, I think you'll find that editors from all political perspectives will not delete your contribution. There is little sense in trying to drag me or others into a debate that will convince neither of us.--csloat 00:22, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

No, you didn’t try thoughtful discussion with me. You asked me to present my arguments with sources; I did; you then responded with, “I don't have time to debate you on these things, and my arguments will not change your mind anyway,” which is two different rationales for avoiding thoughtful discussion. Since you have no response to my cited sources, then yes, I will include my sourced and relevant claims in the article. But please, do not claim that you “tried thoughtful discussion with him and there was no point.” You didn’t try. You simply accused me of holding “superstitions” about things like “Lee Harvey Oswald.” Please don’t try to paint me as irrational or illogical. I presented my arguments, and you refused to respond. That’s fine, but at least be honest about it.

Right, see, I said that because instead of a thoughtful discussion on the facts, you insisted on debating issues that would not find resolution, such as motives, and conspiracies involving Plame and Wilson and a crystal ball. Again, I have had this debate for over a year now and I am sick of it. I will not change your mind; you will not change mine. Either focus on adding factual information to the article or leave it alone.--csloat 17:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Please drop the “crystal ball” argument. I did not say or imply anything about a crystal ball. I presented factual corrections to the article, and you ignored them. I will submit them now, with citations. I trust they will not be removed.

They look good to me. Was that so hard? There is no need to come here looking for a fight.--csloat 19:12, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Important Slate article

Please read this: http://www.slate.com/id/2146475/ and stop all the craziness. Wilson is a fool and a liar. Any reasonable look at the true facts shows this.

LOL... yeah, and we can trust Hitchens, because booze doesn't lie.--csloat 07:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry...was that an attempt to refute the logic and facts in his article, or just an ad hominem attack?

Neither; I was saying that I don't trust Hitchens. I think he's a liar and an attention whore, and I think his alcohol problem has severely distorted his once-agile mind.--csloat 08:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

So if you believe that he is a liar, does that mean you believe his quoted sources are liars as well?

Where did I say that?--csloat 08:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I never claimed you said it; I asked a question. Here's another one: So, are we going to cite this Slate article in the Wikipedia entry as well, or can articles only be cited if they editorialize that the Bush Administration outed Plame in order to scare Wilson?

I don't have a problem with that article being cited, and it probably already is. If it's not, go for it. The only problem I had with your edits is the blatant pov-pushing disguised as fact. You want to cite this boozehound's opinion, go for it, just make sure it is cited as his opinion. Your claim that the article only cites anti-Bush sources is totally at odds with the facts. This article has been editwarred over for a couple years by people on both sides; pro-Libby wikipedia editors have made damn sure the anti-Plame "story" is well-represented here. --csloat 09:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The anti-Bush bias of the article is obvious. And the reason is clear. As you said earlier: "We had this debate over a year ago and your side lost it then." You have no interest in the substance of the recent report by Hitchens, or any of the other evidence that refutes your POV. 71.212.31.95 18:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The anti-fact bias of the Hitchens article is obvious. Let me cite one example. The article you wish to cite [8] claims that Wilson's claims have been "thoroughly dispelled", using as authority an earlier article by Hitchens himself. But that article's evidence is a set of irrelevancies, e.g. that Novak approached officials instead of being approached by them; that Novak got the name of Wilson's wife from Who's who; etc. None of that evidence is probative as to the question whether the Administration sought to discredit Wilson. The article you seek to cite lacks authoritativeness. rewinn 19:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The allegation which is the subject of this article is that Novak's reporting of Plame's CIA affiliation was a deliberate attempt by the White House to "punish" Wilson for his public criticism of the administration. Novak's statements refute this. Novak, not Hitchens, is the source concerning the circumstances of his reporting about Plame. And his statements are clearly probative evidence concerning the allegations that his disclosure about Plame was an intentional White House retaliation against Wilson. The recent Hitchens article correctly points out the accumulating evidence against Wilson's allegations concerning the Plame disclosure. But it also directly cites further evidence concerning reports of Iraqi efforts to obtain nuclear materials from Niger. This evidence bears on Wilson's original claim that his trip had disproved such reports. 71.212.31.95 20:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

1. Thank you for signing your contributions, per wikiPolicy. Your contributions would be more credible if you would create a login; anon contributors are inherently noncredible
2. The Plame scandal is about the outing of a WMD-hunting spy and her WMD-hunting operation. The motivation, while important, is secondary.
3. Whether Novak got Plame's name from "Who's Who" is not probative of whether the disclosure of her identity as a CIA asset was deliberate.
4. Whether Novak called the WH or the WH called Novak is not probative of whether the disclosure of her identity as a CIA asset during that conversation was deliberate, because Novak has frequent WH contact
5. Whether Wilson's assessment of Niger was correct is not probative of whether the disclosure of her identity as a CIA asset was deliberate or not.

Proud to sign my name to my work: rewinn 20:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

As stated by Wilson and others, Plame's name was revealed specifically to punish Wilson specifically because his earlier report of findings in Niger was a threat to the Bush Administration. Thus, whether Wilson's assessment of Niger was correct is specifically relevant to the issue, because if they Bush Administration did not feel that his article was a threat, they would have no motive to reveal Plame's name, and Wilson't argument falls apart. All I'm suggesting is that the accuracy of Wilson's assessment of Niger should be noted in the article, so that others can come to their own conclusions about the accusations.

Non sequitur.

1. Whether Wilson's theory of the motivation behind the leak is correct is not probative of whether the disclosure of her identity as a CIA asset during that conversation was deliberate.
2. You have not quoted anyone at the WH that Wilson's article was not a threat. Your own theorizing on the subject is original research and not encyclopedic.
3. The article is too long to include speculation on every side issue. Feel free to create an article on the subject if you think it's important.
4. If you insist on putting into the article a denegration of Wilson's assessment, you will have opened the door to an analysis of the trustworthiness of other parties to the matter. Do you really want a list of Rove's previous dirty tricks on this page? I assure you, it will not serve your purpose.
5. Please sign your work. Anon is inherently unreliable. Shows pride in your work, or no-one will trust you. rewinn 22:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

One by one:

1. The theory of the motivation behind the leak is completely relevant, because without motivation, you can not make a case that the disclosure of her identity was deliberate.
2. Wilson (and others) have never quoted anyone at the White House saying that they perceived Wilson's article as a threat. They simply assert the correctness of Wilson's report as proof that the Administration saw Wilson as a threat, and logically deduce his motivation from that. Therefore, refuting the correctness of Wilson's report serves to refute their proof. I don't need to cite evidence that the While House did not find Wilson to be a threat; all I have to do is refute evidence presented by Wilson's side.
3. You say it's a side issue; I say it is the main issue. The alleged motivation for the leak is mentioned in the first sentence of the article, so the evidence appears to be on my side.
4. I am talking about including discussion directly related to the allegations listed in the very first sentence of the article. Since that is accusation the article is about, the evidence supporting or refuting that accusation is pertinent. Listing Rove's "previous dirty tricks"?proves nothing about whether this accusation is true, while listing evidence that the Niger report was untrue removes the motivation attributed to the Bush Administration.
5. I have pride in my work, as demonstrated by the fact that I continue to post here and make my arguments in a thoughtful manner, supported by evidence which I cite. Other signed contributors accuse me of superstition and crackpot theories; therefore, I see nothing inherent in signing my name which makes my arguments more or less reliable.

Wilson's argument fails

Wilson's basic allegation is that White House "outed" wife Plame for "revenge". Quite apart for the self-aggrandizing nature of such a claim (as in "I am such an important person, those in power seek to punish me...", we are left with the core issue which is: 1) Novak has stated quite clearly that HE is the prime mover of getting Plame's name out there and 2) Nothing in the record ANYWHERE contradicts this point. People can speculate and allege all they want BUT, Rove DENIED under oath that he was the initiator on this and Fitzgerald DID NOT charge Rove with perjury. Therefore, we can take it that: A) NOVAK asserts he moved the Plame identity public and B) the prosecutor accepts that Rove did NOT. These simple points when looked at, moot this entire article. That is, unless you now want to invent a novel theory based on a contention that Novak was engaged in CONSPIRACY at the behest of the White House and has been lying through his teeth about this all along. However, I for one, will not go there. Why? Because if that were true, Fitzgeraldd would have found that out already AND the media would have long ago sniffed it out. The simple truth is that Novak is a very good reporter and he came along with a timely scoop on others. Personally, I think that Richard Armitage is Novak's source and the only reason this was even a "scandal" is the media jumped at a chance to pin the tail on a Rove donkey. But now that it's clear that Rove DID NOT do anything illegal, immoral or unethical here, we are only left with fools lying and speculating about falsehoods. There is no "Plame affair". There never was any "Plame affair" and this entire controversy was nothing more than a media generated hype-storm.

Sure, there is no spoon. If this is what you believe, propose an WP:AfD and see how it goes.--csloat 00:36, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

What is needed is not deletion of the article, but rather its revision to accurately present the facts concerning the matter.

Although Novak has not identified his primary source, he has repeatedly stated that his source was not a "partisan gunslinger". (On Meet the Press, Tim Russert said that many lawyers involved in the case have said that Novak's primary source was the same as that for Bob Woodward of The Washington Post. Russert quoted Ben Bradlee, former executive editor of the Post, as saying of Woodward’s source: “That Armitage is the likely source is a fair assumption.”) Novak has stated that the information about Plame was not volunteered by his source, but was given in response to Novak's specific question as to how Wilson was selected for the Niger trip. Novak afterward contacted Rove and a CIA official (Harlow) for confirmation. There is no evidence that the information about Plame was given to Novak in an effort to discredit or punish Wilson. 71.212.31.95 02:04, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

That is certainly one point of view that should be presented alongside the others. In fact, it appears it already is, although the Armitage quote should be included, so feel free to add it.--csloat 07:36, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Wilson v. Rove: do you REALLY what to know?

Let us not confuse the issue whether Plame was outed, and the issue why Plame was outed. The former is beyond dispute and harmful to the United States. That makes this article important.

The question of motivation for outing Plame is secondary. But if you want to get into it, well, if that argument is to include the motivation of Wilson, it must also include the motivation of Rove, Cheney and Bush. Between them and the Wilsons, which is more likely to be truthful?

• Ambassador Wilson has a sterling careers of service to our great nation, and actually risked his life in facing down Saddam during the First Gulf War.
• Plame has a distinguished, but necessarily secret, career hunting WMDs for America, against our enemies.
• Rove has a history of partisan dirty tricks, and has admitted to both theft and forgery.
• Cheney comes from the Nixon White House, and has been caught on record lying about the evidence concerning Iraq (for example, calling the hydroden trucks "mobile weapons labs" months after he knew they were not);
• Bush has a history of untreated drug abuse and alcohol abuse; it is common knowledge that you "never trust a junkie". He has frequently ordered the disclosure of classified material for partisan purposes (e.g. selected parts of NIE). He has engaged in crude, erratic behavior (most recently at the G8).
• All these facts are material in figuring out which of the parties are more reliable.

Anon wants to argue that Ambassador Wilson is a liar because, according to Anon, the White House was not really worried about Wilson's editorial because, according to Anon, the report was false. However, there is plenty of evidence that the White House was concerned about Wilson's editorial, beginning with notations on the Vice-President's copy of the editorial in the VP's own handwriting, suggesting that the Niger trip be called a "junket". Thus the whole argument advanced by Anon cannot be supported because the WH itself provide evidence against it.

Now if Anon wants to put his (or her) theory on the page, well enough, but that other material must go there too, to let readers determine for themselves who to believe. I will hold off a bit on this, but it could be fun. rewinn 02:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Bush was a "junkie"? What does that have to do with anything? Look, the simple, unrefuted FACT is that Novak ferreted out the Plame information on his own initiative in his role a journalist and Novak's activities in that regard were NOT at the behest or direction of Rove, Bush, Libby or White House. Anyone who says otherwise is making unsubstantiated assertions because the is NO information in the record which contradicts this point. Rove's testimony - which DENIES being the initiator of the Plame information to Novak has NOT been challenged as false by Fitzgerald. For this reason, reasonable people will accept that Rove DID NOT move the Plame details to Novak, but rather, as Novak has said, Novak asked Rove for confirmation. Now, as to whether or not Rove should have confirmed it to Novak (the record says that he did), what are the facts? 1) Plame WAS NOT "covert" within a near enough time-frame to make discussing her status - even if the conversation focused on a "covert" angle, a crime b) since Novak moved the story, there is at MOST "passive" revenge against Wilson, ie; Rove saw an opportunity to give Wilson a "smack-down" and took it. There was NO conspiracy against Wilson/Plame and there are NO facts which support allegations that contend there was. Now, to turn this around: Please think way back when this story 1st broke - Almost as soon as the Wilson allegations of "leaked my wife's name" came out - the Democrats and the media were pointing fingers at Rove. But how could that be UNLESS Novak had told others that Rove confirmed his already established information (gleaned from Armitage)? The point is that the only way the Dems/Media would have known for CERTAIN (as they clearly did from the beginning) that Rove was as close to the center here as he turned out to be, was is IF they already had some information from other sources. And clearly, those "other sources" could only have been Novak. This means the Dems/Media already KNEW FROM THE BEGINNING, that Rove did NOT "leak". That being pointed out, it's quite clear that the attacks on Rove by the media on the Plame issue were indeed a media-driven attempted coup against Bush. This is disgusting "gotcha" yellow-journalism at the worst. If you can't see that, then what more can I say?