Talk:Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band/Archive 5

Archive 1

←

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Archive 6

Archive 7

→

Archive 10

Track listing numbers

@JG66:, @Radiopathy: I notice a small edit war has broken out over track numbers. MOS:ALBUM#Track listing says "Albums originally released primarily on vinyl or cassette should similarly list the tracks of each side separately under sub-headings named "Side one" and "Side two" but says nothing about whether the track number should continue on side two (and above), or reset to 1. The "Disc one", "Disc two" example given immediately below it suggests numbers continue to rise.

If we can reach a consensus here, I'll update the MOS. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:06, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Blimey, that ain't an edit war! No, my thinking is that an album's often referred to as, say, a 14-track album, so in our track listing, the addition of "Side two" signifies the break well enough, but the original list can continue for each selection. Admittedly, I'm influenced by having worked on articles for a couple of Indian classical albums, where there might be only one selection per LP side – so that's worth bearing in mind in a discussion like this. With that sort of an album article, it's a case of trying to do away with the likes of:

'Side one'

1. "A Very Long Track Indeed"

'Side two'

1. "A Very Long Track Indeed (Reprise)"

As far as the current wording goes, I get where Radio's coming from, and the phrasing there is confusing. I'd think that in instances where it's something as substantial as "Disc one", Disc two" (i.e., a whole disc), the list should start again each time. But for LP sides, not – for the reasons explained. Might be an idea to check the FAC here, because I'm sure Gabe would've been right on it; could well have been an approach he's followed from Are You Experienced or another album FA, where reviewers/delegates perhaps supported having an unbroken list over two LP sides …? JG66 (talk) 16:34, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

I can do better than that - consider Third or Tales of Topographic Oceans - a double album, one track per side. Listing the tracks as 1. 1. 1. 1. is a bit silly isn't? Of course, neither are FAs, so let's find some articles that are - Highway 61 Revisited, Rumours and The Dark Side of the Moon. All high in the list of WP:ALBUMS/500 (this article is #1), and all have contiguous track numbers. So that's my 2c in the ring - I'll go with your version. (Technically, this is an edit war, albeit one that does not require any sanctions, as I counted bold, revert, revert and no discussion. That's one more revert than WP:BRD.) Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:48, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

The vinyl album is the initial release. The numbering of "Side one" and Side two" should be consistent with the actual album numbering, otherwise it's original research. If the initial release was on CD, then yes, numbering from one to sixteen, or whatever, would be appropriate, but we can't make up our own numbering system, or combine vinyl and CD track numbers. Radiopathy •talk• 23:38, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Let's keep the vinyl sides in order, starting from 1 each side, since that was the original layout.

Ignore the strawman arguments here. There's no need to bring up arguments about other albums that have one track per side; why would those tracks even be numbered? It is sufficient to call those tracks something like "side 2" rather than "side 2, track 1". Binksternet (talk) 00:25, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

But several featured articles don't do this - why? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:57, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

It's along the lines of WP:OTHERSTUFF: just because those articles do it doesn't mean it's correct or appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Radiopathy (talk • contribs)

WP:OTHERSTUFF is an essay (not a policy or guideline) for handling AfD debates. These are featured articles! They are supposed to represent the pinnacle of what Wikipedia articles can be, and they should have excellent writing and sourcing and conform totally to the entire manual of style. If you sincerely believe that one doesn't, you must list it for re-assessment immediately. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:08, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Alright, here it is in a nutshell: we are editing an article about a vinyl album in the post-CD/iPod era. People who are not familiar with the technology and the hardware are probably not aware that each side of a vinyl album almost invariably starts with track one; they are wrong when they list the first track of side two as, e.g., number 9, when, if you actually look at the record itself - the reliable source - you will see that track one of side two is, in fact, number one.

If you use contiguous numbering in an article about a vinyl album out of ignorance, you are not adding deliberate factual errors into the article, and your edits should merely be corrected without comment or edit warring. However, disrupting with edit wars and pointless discussions is most certainly not welcome. Radiopathy •talk• 17:10, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Rills

I've started a discussion about this article's usage of the term rills; see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums#Rills--TangoTizerWolfstone (talk) 20:18, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

As the word is unnecessary, I've been bold and removed it. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 01:30, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Original concept

The article states that the original intention was for an album "thematically linked to their childhoods." While there are sources that say this, it doesn't appear that any of the Beatles or George Martin ever said this. If anything, their comments seem to contradict this claim. In Many Years from Now Barry Miles writes:

"Sgt. Pepper is often described as the first concept album, but it was not initially conceived as such. There was never the intention to make a themed album, a 'northern' album, or present a mini-opera as the Who did later."

and

"Paul does not remember any overt decision by himself and John to write songs with a northern theme, even though these first two [Strawberry Fields Forever and Penny Lane] would indicate a concept album along those lines."

Regarding those two songs, George Martin has said:

"They were all intended for the next album. We didn't know it was Sgt Pepper then – they were just going to be tracks on The New Album."

Martin has also said the album "didn't start out life as a 'concept album'" and that "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band was the song that triggered the whole idea of the album becoming a 'concept' album."

Considering the contradictory evidence from primary sources, perhaps this passage should be removed from the article. Piriczki (talk) 19:09, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I sort of see what you mean – the lack of support from primary sources. But under Recording & Production in the article, the statement is supported by both Everett and MacDonald. Given their standing and the fact that (right or wrong) the claim seems so familiar in relation to the Sgt. Pepper story, it might be an idea to simply credit this supposition to those two authors in the prose?

Personally, I see a host of other problems with the article. Sorry to say, because I know GabeMc's now retired, but I find the text variously exhausting and impenetrable – with the attention given to each leg of the 1966 world tour, the early introduction to a conceptual theme that doesn't in fact have any relevance until late in the sessions (the "alter egos" theme, not childhood), the continual input from musicologists, then the showdown of opinions between Goldstein and Christgau that runs over the Reception and Reappraisal sections … And the focus is so McCartney-oriented. Of course, he guided the project, but the others weren't just passengers; there's plenty of notable info missing regarding both their antipathy towards the project and their genuine contributions. It's seen as a landmark release in the history of world music, for instance, by Ken Hunt in Rough Guides: World Music and Peter Lavezzoli in The Dawn of Indian Music in the West. (Also: there are dedicated song articles for each track, lest we forget; it needn't all appear here when discussing the parent album, surely.) I don't know if anyone's even vaguely interested in addressing any of this, but it's something I tried to broach with Gabe at the time. (Despite his and my frequent altercations, I love the guy and miss his participation on Wikipedia hugely, btw.) In short, I think the whole structure of the piece is relevant to a discussion of the legitimacy or the presentation of the point about a possible childhood concept/theme. JG66 (talk) 13:21, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

It's not just the absence of support from primary sources, those sources directly contradict the claim. Even MacDonald acknowledges that McCartney denies the childhood concept, quoting him saying "there wasn't any conscious we'll-sit-down-and remember-our childhood." In Many Years from Now McCartney indicates there wasn't a designed theme even with the two songs "Strawberry Fields Forever" and "Penny Lane," saying "I think we wrote them round about the same time, we were often answering each other's songs so it might well have been my version of a memory song but I don't recall." I think it's just a myth, like the story of "Fixing a Hole" being about McCartney repairing the roof of his Scottish farmhouse, of which he said "People just make it up! They know I've got a farm, they know it has a roof, they know I might be given to handyman tendencies so it's a very small leap for mankind ... to make up the rest of the story."

I suggest the passage be changed to "It has been said that the original intention was for an album thematically linked to their childhoods although McCartney denies this." Piriczki (talk) 15:48, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I've got MacDonald and Miles sources, and they do indeed say this. The Anthology TV series also has Lennon rejecting the concept album entirely, with Ringo saying "we did St Pepper and Billy Shears, then everyone said sod it, just do tracks", though I don't have my VHS copy anymore. It's a shame GabeMc's gone, as he's got the full gamut of sources to work with. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:55, 6 January 2015 (UTC)