Talk:Hal Prewitt

Article status

The status (actual or fictional) of this article has an odd history.

On 14 April 2010, User:Wikiranger82 announced that this article was a GA. But there's no sign in the history of this talk page that it ever was a GA.

Let's look for the GA discussion. First, however, examples of such discussions. Talk:Karim Benzema/GA1 is such a discussion from before this promotion of Hal Prewitt to GA; Talk:Larry Doby/GA1 is such a discussion from after it.

So then: Talk:Hal Prewitt/GA1. Redlinked: it doesn't exist. There seems not to have been a discussion. It appears that User:Wikiranger82 simply decided that this article was a GA.

On 3 April 2012 User:Tbhotch changed "GA" to "B" and added "sports-priority=low", with the laconic edit summary "re-assess".

On 10 June 2012, User:Deansmith750 removed "sports-priority=low" from the template above, and announced that the article was not B but GA, with the edit summary "Did not follow Good article reassessment/guidelines; no known reason for downgrade". (Tbhotch didn't downgrade the article, but instead corrected a fiction about it. Though his/her edit summary is easy to misinterpret.)

On 12 June 2012, User:Spyder Monkey changed the status to "B", with the summary "this hasn't been nominated for GA".

I'm hereby downgrading this article to "C" class. After all, it's shot through with dubiously sourced and promotional material (see below), so it doesn't hack it as "B". Yet there are some seemingly worthwhile bits in it, so it's better than a mere "Start".

I'm unable to estimate Prewitt's importance to/within motor sports. Others can do that. (His importance to/within photography seems to be negligible.) -- Hoary (talk) 08:55, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

User:Deansmith750 reply: Nothing odd here. For over 5 years, more than 30 editors have contributed to the page. Stats show the article is currently viewed hundreds (sometime many thousands) of times each month and is pushing somewhere in the hundreds of thousands since it was created. What is strange is Hoary and Lopifalko sudden interest and their making recent massive changes to this page (including this talking page). Further, it is clear they have no direct knowledge about the biography of this person, the subject matter which they changed nor does it appear research was conducted. Efforts to improve the page are very much appreciated; some was helpful but many changes have done a disservice to the bio and users of wikipedia. There are a few key issues; (1) Hoary downgrading this article to "C" from "B". Hoary admits "unable to estimate Prewitt's importance to/within motor sports". He is not a member of WikiProject Sports Car Racing nor appears to have any experience in the area. Consequently the change is unsupported. (2) "dubiously sourced and promotional material". Published race results, interviews broadcast and appearing in written form along with stories produced and shown in many Media outlets are not "dubiously sourced" nor "promotional". Content is cited. Regardless, Wikipedia allows "self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves". Additionally, the question regarding "promotional material" is addressed below. (3) This entire talk "Article status" is obfuscating. User:Wikiranger82 appears to have made an error as editors sometimes do. No problem, it was corrected. Granted, whether the article was a GA or not was subject to discussion and challenge in 2010. Your using this to justify in 2015 to downgrade this article to "C" from "B" in the motor sports classes is NOT relevant. Long ago, the page was evaluated by an editor that is a member of WikiProject Sports Car Racing with knowledge and they assigned the "B" classes where it has remained and been improved by many editors for the last 5 years.

Therefore, please undo your motor sports class changes. The objections are noted. Class changes are better made by members of WikiProject Sports Car Racing. By Wikipedia standards and review of the facts, the downgrade is not justified. -- Deansmith750 (talk) 18:56, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Promotional material

I'm interested in photography, and it's as a very indirect result of this interest that I reached this article, seemingly about a photographer -- one I'd never heard of.

Its second paragraph is, uh, promising, if hardly encyclopedic, reading:

His art and many of his images of wildlife, landscapes and exotic locales are on display in Park City, Utah Fine-Art Galleries. His images have become highly collectible and sell in the tens of thousands of dollars.

Other photographers verifiably get hundreds of thousands of dollars for their prints, but Wikipedia normally doesn't say this (the exceptions are when the high prices themselves attract independent commentary). But OK, let's take a look at the source for this. It's http://www.halprewitt.com/about.html, at the foot of which page we read "© Hal Prewitt". So the reason why Wikipedia's readers are told that Prewitt's images have become highly collectible etc etc is that Prewitt himself says so.

In just one recent edit, User:Deansmith750 (contributions) makes various changes. Among them, he adds:

Prewitt's primary talent is ability to bring home a win by clicking off laps and staying out of the pits, not damaging or killing the equipment. He owned and managed a race shop thereby bringing an additional perspective different from other drivers; Prewitt understands the engineering, physics and knows how to turn a wrench.

and

Prewitt has achieved impressive results in his racing career.

Putting aside the question of whether any race driver doesn't know how to turn a wrench, this stuff praises Hewitt. What's the source: a newspaper article, perhaps? Ah, no. It's instead http://www.prewitt.net/biography/biography.php. The top page of this website indicates that the proprietor is "Prewitt Enterprises, LLC. So the reason why Wikipedia's readers are told that Prewitt's an unusually skilled driver with impressive results is that Prewitt's company says so.

All of this suggests that this Wikipedia article is largely an auto-hagiography, and is increasingly becoming an auto-hagiography.

I invite Deansmith750, who recently and uninterruptedly made a great increase to the size of the article by larding it with trivia and self-promotion, to remove trivia, advertising, self-promotion, etc. If he doesn't, others will. -- Hoary (talk) 08:55, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

User:Deansmith750reply: I am member of WikiProject Sports Car Racing and WikiProject Biography. I have extensive knowledge and experience in these subjects and a general understanding about most of the people's skills, WikiProjects and content I have worked on or am currently developing. I focus on living people. As part of the research I try to meet them, interview anyone I can reach and conduct systematic investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach correct conclusions. I spend hundreds of hours of effort collecting and verifying content I have published on these subjects. I have received images, historical records and obtain permissions where necessary or advisable.

Your ending statement is blatantly false. "I invite Deansmith750, who recently and uninterruptedly made a great increase to the size of the article by larding it with trivia and self-promotion, to remove trivia, advertising, self-promotion, etc. If he doesn't, others will."

A fact you overlooked, much of the content you found offending I did not originally post. Last time I worked on this site was in 2012. Hoary and User:Lopifalko have removed content posted by many others of which has been on this page a long while. However, I did review and ran through the above process and did repost including some of the recent content Hoary and Lopifalko removed along with some of their changes. Yes, some of the recent changes have improved the page and are very much appreciated. However, most removals or changes have done a disservice to the bio and users of wikipedia. I am not objecting to "toning down" content sourced from marketing, promotional materials or websites.

Reading your post and recent page changes made by Lopifalko, it appears your skills and issues relate to an interest in photography. Just because you have "never heard of" does not support your condemnation of me, other editors or this bio. There are hundreds if not thousands of successful and noteworthy artist that likely fall into this category. You are correct to question the source regarding "collectible" and selling for high value. I did not post this content and would like to see more cites to support these words. However, I did search, found collectors and communicated with owners and others who have confirmed the content is factual. Once again, just because you are not aware does not support its removal. The content should be flagged not removed. Your comments about his racing shows you have limited knowledge of the auto racing sport. If fact many drivers succeed while others fail because they lack the skills described in the article. I have researched and have direct knowledge about racing and many details on the biography of this person.

Your question, "So the reason why Wikipedia's readers are told that Prewitt's an unusually skilled driver with impressive results is that Prewitt's company says so. All of this suggests that this Wikipedia article is largely an auto-hagiography, and is increasingly becoming an auto-hagiography."?

Don't have to depend on any one website. Simple and quick search shows he is in the top 10 of 553 drivers and currently the leading America driver in the International Endurance Series Championship underway in Europe and the UAE. Last Dec, he set a World Record, won the Touring class and finished 3rd overall in the longest sports car race in the world. There is zero evidence (and much against) that the article is or has ever been "auto-hagiography, and is increasingly becoming an auto-hagiography."

Why are you the only one to make such a claim? For over 5 years, more than 30 editors have contributed to this bio. Stats show the article is currently viewed hundreds (sometime many thousands) of times each month and is pushing somewhere in the hundreds of thousands since it was created.

Show respect for this living person's bio, work done by other editors and provide users of wikipedia with the content removed. Would be best for Hoary and Lopifalko to help on this article's photography points and leave primary work to members of WikiProject Sports Car Racing and WikiProject Biography. Great Wikipededia articles come from editors who do the hard research and include work done by other's who they disagree with. Having direct knowledge about subjects related to a bio along with obtaining access to the difficult to find historic details on the person produces a factual and complete biography. It is proper to flag issues, ask questions and add content. DON'T REMOVE OTHER EDITORS WORK UNLESS FACTUALLY INCORRECT. Not liking the style, words, disagreeing with other people opinions or finding something "too promotional" does not justify removal. The correct methods is to identify, comment or ask for more cites. -- Deansmith750 (talk) 18:56, 19 June 2015 (UTC)