Talk:Female genital mutilation

Circumcision in reference to type Ia

I think a comment should be put that circumcision refers to UN type Ia. I know that historically "female circumcision" has been used for all FGM, but the reason is that circumcision in Latin means "to cut around", while applying the term to all forms of FGM seems more in line local customs seeing the practice as similar to the Hebrew word that gets translated to circumcision, which literally means covenant (see Abraham). Using it for type Ia would be using the Latin correctly, rather than taking the biblical translation out of context.Scientus (talk) 06:50, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Those sorts of details can go in the body. They do not belong in the lead. Many people still use female circumcision to mean all types. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:06, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

The edit in question changed the first of the following (first sentence in article) to the second:

• Female genital mutilation (FGM), also known as female genital cutting and female circumcision, is the ritual removal of some or all of the external female genitalia.
• Female genital mutilation (FGM), also known as female genital cutting and female circumcision (for type Ia), is the ritual removal of some or all of the external female genitalia.

I think the information is totally WP:UNDUE anywhere in the article. The text appears to assert that the term "female circumcision" is only used for type 1a, and the explanation above is that "circumcision" has a proper meaning that only applies to 1a. However, that misses the point that people can and do use words to mean what they want—a highly reliable source would be needed to assert that "female circumcision" has been used to only refer to type 1a. It's very unlikely that such a source would exist since, as Doc James notes, the term is used more widely. Johnuniq (talk) 08:15, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

You think it is Undue specificity to discuss etymology of the main topic of the article? I think mentioning what the Latin word means, and that in the male circumcision instance the Hebrew word that it is translated from is relevant due to that being the origin or the practice (although that doesn't currently appear in the male circumcision article...).

There is no such things as type Ib or III circumcision, even if the term was used this way, because there is no circumferance being cut around in those cases. What is being cut around could be construed as the vagina or clitoris (type Ia or type II) but the others are clearly not circumcision, even if the practitioners of this surgery consider it a form of covenant or bris.Scientus (talk) 08:20, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

This article is about FGM, not the word "circumcision" so details of whether the term is used incorrectly are not due here. Moreover, any assertion concerning circumcision and FGM would need to be accompanied by a very good source. Johnuniq (talk) 10:20, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

We need to keep the first sentence reasonably simple (ie. what is it and what are some names used for it)

We must not try to pack everything we possibly can into a single sentence. Controversy over exactly which names are used for which specific practices can go in the body.

Most English speakers do not consider the etymology of a word and its Greek and Latin roots when they use it. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:55, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I think the person (Scientus) who made the change regarding the "circumcision part" has a point though. I think it is misleading to say "Female genital mutilation (FGM), also known as female genital cutting and female circumcision is...", without adding a qualifier that the term "female circumcision" is no longer a term being recommended and used by experts. Why not? Because it makes people think that it is basically the same as the "male circumcision" which it is not. Why not? Because male circumcision is basically pretty much harmless, removing some "superfluous" piece of skin and pretty much non controversial. But FGM is something totally different, it has much more to do with power relationships, violating the dignity of the women etc. I don't have a reference at hand but it would probably be quite easy to dig up documents which have said "do not call it female circumcision, call it female genital mutilation (or cutting)!". Therefore, the first sentence could be modified to say: "Female genital mutilation (FGM), also known as female genital cutting and formerly known as female circumcision (no longer recommended), is ...". Or split it into two sentences: "Female genital mutilation (FGM), also known as female genital cutting, is....". Then as a second sentence: "The word "female circumcision" has also been used in the literature and media but is not recommended by experts because... "EvM-Susana (talk) 20:15, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't want to be dragged into your polemic, however I agree with using an adjective for female circumcision such as historically or misnomer (as described above it is a misnomer).Scientus (talk) 02:36, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Scientus, female circumcision is and always was used by the sources in English to refer to all the common forms of FGM, not only Type I (note that Type Ia is rare, according to the WHO). Sarah ^(talk) 04:03, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

This sort of fine detail, if you can find a reference for it, belongs in the body of the text not the lead. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:51, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I know it was used for all types, but it is still a misnomer.Scientus (talk) 05:16, 13 July 2015 (UTC)