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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cantikadam (talk | contribs) at 13:39, 14 July 2015 (→Guy Verhofstadt). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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20th Century Update

this statement is misleading " a region with a large native Greek population at the time..." the time is not definite. After the 1919 Smyrna occupation there was a population transport to Smyrna from Greece affecting the demographics. For pre 1919 situation See. For more information see --OnlyTheTruth 14:15, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Standart of Living in Greece

The phrase "Greece is a democratic and developed country with an advanced high-income economy, a high quality of life and a very high standard of living." does not reflect the facts so it is against NPOV rules.--OnlyTheTruth 06:17, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

This reflects the overall Human Development Index and per capita income from a global perspective. Greece is still a developed nation. A county can be deep in debt and have a tremendously high unemployment rate and still be a "developed" nation. 66.68.200.52 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 06:07, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It will need an update soon keep that in minde. --OnlyTheTruth 06:17, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Turks of Western Thrace

General Distribution of Population in Western Thrace (1912-1920)
Census/Estimate Muslims Pomaks Bulgarians Greeks Others Total
1912 estimate 120,000 - 40,000 60,000 4,000 224,000
1919 Bulgarian 79,539 17,369 87,941 28,647 10,922 224,418
1919 Bulgarian 77,726 20,309 81,457 32,553 8,435 220,480
1920 French 74,730 11,848 54,092 56,114 7,906 204,690
1920 Greek 93,273 - 25,677 74,416 6,038 201,404


During Ottoman rule before 1912, Greeks constituted a minority in the region of Western Thrace.[1] After the Balkan Wars and World War I the demography of the region was changed. While groups such as the Turks and Bulgarians decreased, the Greek population increased by the resettlement of ten thousands of Greek refugees from other areas of the Ottoman Empire, after the flight of the Greek refugees from Asia Minor, as a result of the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) and the subsequent population exchange between Greece and Turkey.[2] Of all Greek Asia Minor refugees (578,824 individuals), 31% of them were resettled in Western Thrace.[3] The Greek government's reason to settle the refugees in this region was to strengthen the Greek presence in the newly acquired provinces and the homogenization of the population.[3] The Greek government especially resettled the refugees in Komotini, Xanthi and Sapes regions where the majority of Muslim Turks lived.[3]

General Distribution of Population in Western Thrace in 1923, presented by the Greek delegation in Laussane (after the relocation of Asia Minor refugees)[3]
Districts Total Total Greeks Local Greeks Relocated Greek refugees Turks Bulgarians Jews Armenians
Komotini 104,108 45,516 11,386 33,770 50,081 6,609 1,112 1,183
Alexandroupolis 38,553 26,856 9,228 17,518 2,705 9,102 -
Soufli 32,299 25,758 11,517 14,211 5,454 1,117 - -
Xanthi 64,744 36,859 18,249 18,613 27,882 - -
Didymoteicho 34,621 31,408 21,759 9,649 3,213 - - -
Orestiada 39,386 33,764 22,087 11,677 6,072 - - -
Total 314,235 199,664 (63,5%) 94,226 (30,0%) 105,438 (33,6%) 95,407 (30,4%) 16,828 (5,4%) 1,112 (0,4%) 1,183 (0,4%)
  1. ^ Huseyinoglu, Ali (2012). "The Development of Minority Education at the South-easternmost Corner of the EU: The Case of Muslim Turks in Western Thrace, Greece" (PDF). University of Sussex. pp. 121–122. Retrieved 2 May 2013.
  2. ^ Pentzopoulos, Dimitri (2002). The Balkan exchange of minorities and its impact on Greece ([2. impr.]. ed.). London: Hurst. p. 11. ISBN 9781850657026. led directly to the flight of the Greek refugges from Asia Minor, the compulsory exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey
  3. ^ a b c d Huseyinoglu, Ali (2012). "The Development of Minority Education at the South-easte rnmost Corner of the EU: The Case of Muslim Turks in Western Thrace, Greece" (PDF). University of Sussex. p. 123. Retrieved 2 May 2013.

Debt as % of GDP nonsense

"Public debt was forecast, according to some estimates, to hit 120% of GDP during 2010." is nonsense, because debt is an absolute amount of money whereas GDP is a rate of money per unit time, usually reported on a per-year basis. Perhaps this text really is supposed to mean 120% of one year of GDP, i.e. 1.2 years of GDP or 14.4 months of GDP? If the source of the info says it wrong, does that mean WikiPedia must repeat the mistake even when it's obvious the source is wrong? 198.144.192.45 (talk) 03:45, 1 July 2015 (UTC) Twitter.Com/CalRobert (Robert Maas)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2015


+ The Best Olive Oil, in the World. +€. Amen 79.82.40.144 (talk) 16:46, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done That is not a Semi-protected edit request, it is an unsourced PoV - Arjayay (talk) 17:53, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Financial crisis

Why are Greek defaults hidden? The defaults are very significant, they are in many reliable references, why do Greek editors cleanse the Greece article of significant things that look bad for Greece? Spumuq (talq) 15:47, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My thoughts, exactly.

Califate123 (talk) 17:35, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, if I was someone without any info about Greek economy, I would not see the current situation of its economy. So facts on Greek economy cannot be read in this article. --Prusan 09:20, 9 July 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cantikadam (talk • contribs)

Economy section

I am not an expert editor of Greece, so I leave my comments here for review. The economy section reports "very high standard of living". But the infobox reports "41st" for GDP per capita (PPP). Besides, 2 sources provided do not directly support this statement. All the best! SSZ (talk) 00:12, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Standard of living" refers to income level (not HDI). My 2 cents! 68.199.100.166 (talk) 00:22, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(Personal attack removed) It is pathetic, really. --Prusan 09:21, 9 July 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cantikadam (talk • contribs)

This article doesn't respect the principle of neutrality

" (...) a high quality of life and a very high standard of living" - Joke of the year?

Whoever reads this article thinks Greece is all rainbows and unicorns. Even in the economy section the most recent financial troubles are omitted. It only states the "recovery" in 2014, failing to address the fact the economy got back in recession once again. Not to mention the defaults... Califate123 (talk) 17:34, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The UN HDI report lists Greece as having a "Very high" HDI, not "High". Please read the sources instead of the news. As for the rest of the comments, all I'm going say is that wikipedia is not a newspaper. Athenean (talk) 21:30, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The HDI measures human development, not quality of life (not quite the same thing). It doesn't include, for instance, the number of Greeks unemployed, nor the fact the GDP fell by 25% in the last years. Wikipedia is not a place for nationals of a country to hide the truth about their nation. Hiding facts is one of the things that brought Greece to where it is in the first place. Califate123 (talk) 12:52, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, why are people hiding facts that make Greece look bad? Spumuq (talq) 16:23, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Drop the ethnic profiling and bad faith assumptions before I report the both of you. "Califate" changed the "very high standard of living" to "high", even though the wikilink is to UN Human Development Index, which clearly lists in the "very high human development" category. This can be construed as falsification of sources, which is a major no-no. And FYI, the human development index does include economic information. Athenean (talk) 16:56, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not a place for nationals of a country to hide the truth about their nation.: I strongly suggest you stop this type of silly innuendo per WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. Also don't forget if you attack the nationality of your fellow editors, they can also attack yours, and that can lead to discussions of really bad quality. Hiding facts is one of the things that brought Greece to where it is in the first place.: I suggest you stop the trolling. I also suggest you understand the concept of reliable sources and follow what the reliable sources say. If the reliable source says "high" HDI it is not up to you to erase the adjective "high" because you don't like it or because you have your own ideas about what the HDI does or does not include. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 21:14, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, why are people hiding facts that make Greece look bad? Is this an admission of what you have been trying to do all this time? Are you trying to make Greece look bad, to use your own words? I remind you that this is an encyclopedia, not a propaganda site. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 21:18, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In this article, Economy section does not reflect current Economical situation of Greece, it is not up to date. We are in year 2015, there is not any info about the situation in 2015, the last sentence is of year 2014. Please keep the Article up to date. And please do not keep refering to Wiki links in order to seem credible (this is for the editors). --Prusan 09:27, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Δρ.Κ., focus on content, stop attacking me. Greece's ongoing economic problems are very notable, many references about this, and many readers come to the article looking for this, why are Greek editors hiding some of the most notable facts about Greece? I don't want to make Greece look bad, I just want our article to be honest. Spumuq (talq) 10:19, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
why are Greek editors hiding some of the most notable facts about Greece?: Once more stop your silly atacks against the Greek editors. Stop attacking editors based on their ethnicity otherwise I will give you a formal warning. focus on content, stop attacking me: Leave the nonsense warnings and follow your own advice. My comments did not atack you. They were a response to your silly insinuations. You should not put WP:RECENT news in the lead. Also in your edit you claim In 2012, Greece had the biggest sovereign debt default ever,... which is just the opinion of a columnist. There was no default in 2012. It was a debt haircut. The opinion of the columnist that it was a default is just a political opinion which is not supported by the majority of sources. As far as the rest of your edit it does not belong in the lead per WP:NOTNEWS. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 16:31, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What Dr.K. said. There was no default in 2012, and the 2015 stuff is *very* recent and the situation is constantly changing. This is not material that is appropriate for the lede of a country article. Athenean (talk) 18:42, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is quite unfortunate that your beliefs directly contradict what multiple reliable sources say. Can you provide a reason why Greece's record-breaking default, and chronic economic problems, cannot be mentioned in our article about Greece? You mentioned WP:LEDE, but the content that you're edit-warring to remove fully complies with WP:LEDE. You mentioned recentism, but this isn't a recentism issue (and much more trivial recent things are allowed to remain in the article, as long as they look good for Greece). Do you have any other excuses for removing coverage of Greece's financial fuckups? I note that the rest of the Economy section also presents a surprisingly rosy picture, which is quite incompatible with the tone of independent sources. bobrayner (talk) 18:56, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any other excuses for removing coverage of Greece's financial fuckups? Your economic analysis and terminology are neither competent nor neutral and that's being kind. Your simplistic interpretations of the Greek economic collapse and your attacks on other editors constitute very low quality arguments. This is just simplistic, neo-liberal POV which if left unchallenged will damage the article. This POV is also coupled with personal attacks and expletives which demonstrate tendentious editing. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 20:24, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Totally. And if it not a case of WP:RECENT then perhaps someone can explain to me why it was never ever in the lede in 2008, 2009, 2010, etc.. My opinion is that desires to have the crisis in the lede is just smug rejoice over a situation for which the EU as a body is ultimately responsible through its authoritarian bureaucracy and stealth quest to achieve full central European hegemony. Naphtha Termix (talk) 20:35, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No one is trolling, so don't come up with that reductio ad absurdum. The % of people living under the national poverty line has RISEN from 20% to 40%! 40% of Greeks are technically poor! How can this translate as "very high living standards"?! And once again, HDI isn't about quality of life. Do you consider, for instance, Croatia and Cuba as having a "VERY high quality of life" just because they have a very high HDI?? (Personal attack removed) The entire world already knows it is far from having a "very high quality of life". Califate123 (talk) 15:57, 13 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Guy Verhofstadt

I think a sub section in Economy section about Mr.Guy Verhofstadt's speech could be written. --Prusan (talk) 06:15, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Why? I mean, Personally I agree with (most of) what he said and this is pretty much the same stuff I'd like to tell Tsipras to his face, but a political speech is by definition not a WP:RS. What he said about privileges of certain groups in Greece etc. can be sourced to more reliable sources. Constantine ✍ 09:55, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the proposal. Not notable of a speech as it is nothing more than a WP:NEWSEVENT. Étienne Dolet (talk) 03:24, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is important as the fact that it is the first time a prime misinter of an EU country got accused, attacked so directly and strongly. It is noteworthy --Prusan (talk) 13:39, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Transport

I was quite surprised to find almost nothing about the ferry boat system, either here or at Transport in Greece. Isn't it the main mode of transportation between islands?

Kendall-K1 (talk) 20:34, 13 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Update in Economy Section

I strongly recommend an update for Greece Economy --Prusan (talk) 13:31, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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