Talk:King of Hell

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Requested move 18 July 2015

The request to rename this article to King of Hell has been carried out.

If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

– in Google books the primary topic of "King of Hell" is naturally enough the King of Hell in Chinese religion; see "King of Hell is" and "King of Hell" Yama, not a Korean comic. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:43, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Actually, "King of Hell" manhwa gets more Google Books results than "King of Hell" Yama. Perhaps a bit surprising, but going by Google Books, that's what we find. Of the topics on the dab page, the comic is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Dohn joe (talk) 21:49, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

User:Dohn joe we don't find anything of the sort, you've included 'fiction' in your search and sucked up copies of the comic itself. What we're looking for is 3rd party references.

Google books where "the King of Hell" refers to the Buddhist King of Hell include: The Origin of Chinese Deities, Religious Reflections on the Human Body, Rites of Belonging: Memory, Modernity, and Identity, Ah Q Archaeology - Lu Xun, Ah Q, Ah Q Progeny, Understanding Humor in Japan (on the Yama play Asahina), Southeast Asian Journal of Social Science, The Gods of Northern Buddhism (1988), Orthodox Chinese Buddhism (2007), Nirvana Upside Down - Dhiravamsa (2012), The Buddhism of Tibet Or Lamaism: With Its Mystic Cults (1895), Buddhist Stories Volume 1 Miao Lien Shi (2014) India in the Chinese Imagination: Myth, Religion, and Thought (2013) The Buddhism of Tibet Or Lamaism (2007) Shaping the Lotus Sutra - Buddhist Visual Culture (2005), The No Plays of Japan (1954) Buddhist China (2015) Journey to the West: The Monkey King's Amazing Adventures Wu Cheng'en (2014) Death Gods: An Encyclopedia of the Rulers, Evil Spirits (2009) Tunnel of Light: Answers to Life Found in Death John Saint John (2009), The Hindu Religious Year (1991) Buddhism, In its Connexion With Brahmanism and Hinduism (2014) The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Zen Buddhism (2002)

Tibetan-Lamaist art (1970) Yongming Yanshou's Conception of Chan in the Zongjing lu (2011), Beyond Representation: Chinese Painting and Calligraphy (1992) Zen Masters (2010) Approaching the Dhamma (2003) Hindu Manners, Customs, and Ceremonies (2001) The Seven Ages of Man ‎London Regional Art Gallery Ontario (1980) Nothing to Do, Nowhere to Go: Reflections on the Teachings Thich Hanh (2007) New Larousse encyclopedia of mythology (1959, 1968, 1994) ...

and on and on ....

and on and on, over 100 results....

Against this

Books on comics mentioning the comic include: Manhwa, Another Discovery in Asian Comics (2007), that appears to be 1 book. A search result may indicate the title is mentioned in 2 other comic books, or it may be ghosting.

So the objection above appears to be complete nonsense, the primary topic of the King of Hell is the King of Hell, Yama. After which some other sundry occult and medieval Christian refences and the Korean comic barely on the radar.

Please change your vote to support based on Google Books results. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:30, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that the comic has been at King of Hell for ten years until your undiscussed move. Also note that the Yama article did not even include the phrase "King of Hell" until I added it this morning. Dohn joe (talk) 14:28, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

User:Dohn joe so what, where is the change of vote to support based on Google Books results? You cited what looks like max 3 third party sources for the Korean comic as a primary topic over 100+ for Yama as King of Hell and now you're ignoring your own search and saying it's been misdirecting to the comic for 10 years. Again, so what? In ictu oculi (talk) 15:11, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're confusing the actual name of a topic with a description of the topic. Yama is Yama. Yama is also the king of Hell. But Yama is not "King of Hell". Just like Ares is the god of war, but Ares is not God of War. There is only one topic on WP whose actual name is "King of Hell", which is the manhwa. This is why no one else besides you has wanted to redirect the title in a decade. Dohn joe (talk) 15:51, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How does this comment relate to your completely incorrect Google Books search above? You were asked to say something about your search. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:31, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We are not using these searches for article content, in which case we would indeed want to focus on the secondary sources. We're using them to see how often the various topics appear in the real world. Dohn joe (talk) 01:07, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's total nonsense. We are exactly and specifically searching for secondary searches, that's what a Google Books search is, and we always exclude uploaded copies of the work itself, you should know this. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:26, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support The comic book clearly is not primary by page views (952 vs. 2620 for Yama in the past month), and falls down flat on its face on the "long term significance and educational value" test. As for usage, leaving aside Google Books where the results might be open to interpretation, in Google News and Google Web search, it's clear that neither the comic book nor Yama are predominant; instead it's a grab bag of other pop-culture topics or "King of Hell" used as a nickname to refer to various real-world figures. Both those facts suggest that the comic should not be squatting on the undisambiguated lemma. 58.176.246.42 (talk) 04:03, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There are only three topics on the dab page for us to worry about, and only one where the article title is actually "King of Hell". There's also WP:TITLECHANGES. The comic book has been at King of Hell for ten years (!) without any evidence of reader confusion. This can (and is being) handled by a hatnote. Dohn joe (talk) 14:28, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And that's disgraceful, we've been misdirecting readers to something not remotely primary for ten years with the evidence of books against it. And WP:TITLECHANGES doesn't say leave a Korean comic over a major Chinese deity In ictu oculi (talk) 15:11, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

See above. You are confusing names with descriptions of topics. Dohn joe (talk) 15:51, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

King of Hell is a title of Yama. King of Hell in Buddhist literature refers to Yama, not a Korean comic. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:31, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but that's the thing. Emperor of India was a title of Edward VII, but his name was Edward. "Emperor of India" in Edwardian literature refers to Edward, but titles and names are not the same thing. People generally search for things by their names, not their titles. Dohn joe (talk) 01:07, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Says who? Yama isn't even spelled Yama in Japanese, but Enma, King of Hell. If someone was searching for "King of Hell" what evidence have you got other than opinion that they aren't searching for the Buddhist King of Hell but must be searching for a Korean comic. Where's your evidence for this belief? In ictu oculi (talk) 03:26, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Strong support clearly not the primary topic. There's the Christian king of Hell, Satan, there's the Supernatural TV series king of hell (which would be much more likely than any manhwa in the English-speaking world), there are the various mythological Kings of Hell, such as found in East Asian traditions. -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 05:12, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]