Talk:Chiropractic

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• Talk:Chiropractic medicine/Archive 1

Criticisms

It seems that User:RK is merely attacking the completely rational and medically accepted chiropractic care field over a personal viewpoint. Hmm. I thought that was frowned upon- due to Wikipedia's neutrality and non-biased nature? User:capitolZ

Please stop your personal criticisms. This page reports the views of mainstream doctors and scientists, not just advocates of chiropractice. Stop acting as if all their studies and statements were written by me. If you think that there is an error, and that this article does not accurately represent the views of the mainstream medical and scientific community, then state precisely what you think the error is, and give us citations to back up your position. By the way, your claim that chiropractic is "medically accepted" is wrong. We must take care not to distort the positions of other people, in order to make our own position look more popular. RK

RK's bias is not actually personal but Scientism. He tends to demand hard evidence which in the case of chiropractic is hard to come by. Testimonials of patients who feel healthy and prefer to consult a chiropractor when they have a problem is considered anecdotal and not evidence as such. Fred Bauder 20:01, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

My God, the Chiropractic medicine page is a cesspool of misinformation and personally biased opinions! Does anyone have any medically relevant information on chiropractic care to put on that page, so that that it can become more than an attack on the chiropractic field of medicine? User:capitolZ

While I agree RK goes way overboard, some mild criticism is appropriate. Fred Bauder 15:49, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

The problem is that this page does contain "medically relevant information on chiropractic care"; Use capitalZ is just angry that the results of such medical studies are at odds with his beliefs. RK 19:10, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

What is lacking in the article is material which has a postive point of view regarding chiropractic medicine. This lack, in the face of the cautionary points of view RK has liberally inserted in the article, skews the entire article towards a negative point of view. But, in the main, the solution is to add positive material not to remove negative material, although can also be improved. Fred Bauder 19:56, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

We can't just manufacture positive points of view in an attempt to give balance. If positive evalutations are shown to exist, then of course we should add them. The trouble is, we can't really find any; all we can find are personal testimonials. Yet we can also find personal testimonials that Jesus cured their cancer, and that flax-seed oil cured Cronhn's disease. We can report the existence of these many testimonials, but we also need to note if there is any evidence to back them up. Remember, anyone can claim anything. RK 15:22, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)

My thought was to use chiropractic's representations of itself and also to summarize the opinion's of those who use chiropractic. See below what I consider acceptable. Fred Bauder 16:28, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)

Content of the Wikinfo article

Chiropractic is a holistic healing profession which attempts to take into account all factors such as patients' attitude toward their work, the healing potential of caring and empathy, and the relationship between the patient and the provider.

It seems to me that you are writing something that has little to do with chiropractice in specific. Chiropractice is the use of spinal manipulations to remove a putative type of blockage ("subluxation") thereby restoring correct energy flow within the body. Anything else is not chiropractice, but rather a set of additional ideas that people sometimes (not always) add to chiropractice. It seems to me that many proponents of chiropractice theory on Wikipedia are not defending chiropractice in of itself, but rather describing multiple ideas, including chiropractice, some peer-reviewed medical results, and an assortment of separate alternative medicine techniques. This seems off-topic, or better related to the article on alternative medicine in general. RK 23:14, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)

I see this article as containing information about what a person can expect who consults a chiropractor as well as information for those who are curious as to why anyone would consult a chiropractor rather than simply going to a doctor. It presents chiropractic at its best from chiropractic's viewpoint, which includes a negative view of mainstream medicine. Fred Bauder 00:50, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

Traditional (allopathic) medicine is criticized as being dehumanizing and depersonalizing because it is based on a biomedical model which tries to explain disease in a mechanistic manner focusing only on biochemical and physiological factors while ignoring other significant factors.

If by other factors you are referring to emotions, and viewing the patient as an integrated whole, then that too is well within mainstream (allopathic) medical practice. It is something of a myth that mainstream medical science is only concerned with biochemistry and treating diseases after their appear. For many years mainstream medical practice has recognized the link between a patient's emotional well-being and their health. One's emotional state has a significant effect on hormone levels and the immune system, which can have a dramatic effect on a patient's wellness. And of course, changing a patient's emotional state alters their behavior, leading to healthier living. None of this is alternative medicine; none of this is chiropractice. All of this, in fact, has been a part of modern mainstream medical science for many years. RK 23:14, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)

Among its best practitioners, yes. Among the butchers and pillpushers no, and especially absent at some HMO's. Fred Bauder 00:50, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

I agree! This is a major problem with mainstream medicine. I think that perhaps I have not been sensitive enough to this point in my previous editing of Wikipedia articles. RK 04:21, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

Spinal manipulation versus chiropractice

Special emphasis is placed upon misalignment of the joints of the back which are believed to affect the nervous system producing disease symptoms. It is generally accepted by many health insurance providers that chiropractic treatment is effective in treating back pain.

According to doctors I know, using spinal manipulation to treat back pain has nothing to do with chiropractice. Mainstream medical doctors have long recognized that some spinal manipulations have some medical benefits, as the article already states. You and I are in agreement. However, chiropractice is very different: It is the use of spinal manipulations to remove a putative type of blockage ("subluxation") thereby restoring correct energy flow within the body, to correct any and all medical problems. That is what mainstream medical doctors disagree with. RK

Nevertheless chiropractors do 90% of the spinal manipulation done. Although some cures occur when chiropractors attempt therapies outside this area, such treatment would basically amount to fraud if chiropractors and their patients did not have faith in it. Fred Bauder 00:50, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

We have more agreement here than you might see at first blush. I agree that chiropracters happen to do these spinal manipulations, which do happen to have some effectiveness for some conditions. However, I am specifically trying to diffentiate true chiropractice from mere spinal manipulation. True chiropractice is the belief that all (or nearly all) disease is caused by subluxations, and that all diseases (or nearly all) can be cured by manipulating the spine. Unless I misunderstand you, you do not seem to be supporting this maximalist view. As such, there is much less disagreement betwen us than both of us first thought. In fact, there may be some actual agreement occuring here. RK 04:21, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

Fred, why no response? I saw an attack from you against me on the Wiki-En list, and I don't understand. RK 01:45, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

Chiropractic treatments which move beyond spinal adjustments are two controversial and may not be covered by health insurance. Nevertheless they may be effective due to factors not readily explained by a biochemical model.

Sometimes this kind of stuff does work. Fred Bauder 00:50, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

I agree. RK 04:21, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

Again, Fred, will you please respond? RK 01:45, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

Risk of stroke

By putting information regarding risk of stroke during adjustments in a paragraph concerned with the rotary neck movement (sometimes called Vaster cervical or rotary break) the impression is created that that procedure presents low risk for stroke rather than adjustments in general. Fred Bauder 16:05, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)

"The practice of greatest concern is the rotary neck movement (sometimes called Vaster cervical or "rotary break"). This type of manipulation has led to trauma, paralysis, strokes, and death among patents. Even chiropractic's legal advisors have warned against its use. Although study results have varied, the actual risk of stroke is typically calculated to be one in 2 to 5 million adjustments. A recent study published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal puts the risk at 'one in 5.85 million adjustments'."

NCAHF is not NPOV

The National Council Against Health Fraud should not be included in any discussion that wants to maintain NPOV. Stephen Barrett, M.D. is a man with an anti chiropractic agenda. When you find a source attempting to debunk any part of the chiropractic profession, you need not look too hard to find. Dr. Barretts name. Doctor in the loosest since, as it has been reported that he surrendered his medical license in the early 1990s. Numerous lawsuits pending, and all that have been ruled on where ruled against him should raise some flags about his efforts and any organization which he is a leading member. (Anonymous)

This makes no sense. NPOV policy requires that we add all major points of view. You can't say that that points of view are forbidden if you disagree with them. And the NCAHF is not a one-man organization, as your paragraph implies. As for Dr. Barrett, his claims about chiropractice are agreed with by major medical and scientific organizations. You seem to be trying to remove the facts and arguments he mentions by ad homenim attacks on him. That is a violation of Wikipedia policy. RK

It is simply impossible to include all points of veiw, as it is equally impossible to distinguish which is "major". Your abilitly to distinguish what is major is suspect. I imagine the problem here lies in the firt line of NPOV "The neutral point of view policy states that one should write articles without bias, representing all views fairly." There is a clear differents bewtween writting articales without bias, and representing all veiws. It is quite obvious there is a bias in the present state of the article, and there are no major viewpoints.

A quote from Barrett himself, as seen in Time Magazine ~ April 30, 2001 Vo. 157 No. 17 "Twenty years ago, I had trouble getting my ideas through to the media," he says. "Today I am the media." I have always been uneasy about this mans accusations and statements and in trying to learn more bout his history, have only found accounts of him being a "bully". Suing, threatening to sue, and other threats for those that have questioned or attracted his position. Investigating the source of criticism of chiropractic reveals one person. Just because someone is skeptical, does not mean they are creditable. (Anonymous)

Um, so what? This article is not about chiropracters versus this one man. I don't know why you have animosty towards this man, but the arguments in this article against chiropractice in this article are not unique to Dr. Barrett. Please stop ad homenim rebuttals and criticisms. In any case, on this issue his views happen to be the views of mainstream science and medicine. RK

This artical as I found it is about this one man vs chiropractic. His views are no where near mainstream, and your constant claiming of such does not make it so. I find it humerous we are supposed to allow Dr. Barrett (if we can personify chiropractic as a profession ) ad homenim attacks, while you try to strifle my attempts at unbiasing this artical with claims of the same technique.

The anonymous person is flat-out lying. The views of Dr. Barett on this topic are mainstream. I find it difficult to co-edit an article with an anonymous editor who willfully creates lies in order to push an agenda. RK 01:45, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

In the interest of being NPOV contributions to the article by TNCAHF should be excluded. I feel that linking to these sites in the external resources is fine, but allowing them to push their agenda in the articles is defiantly not NPOV. (not signed)

See above. This proposal is a clear violation of Wikipedia NPOV policy. Please read the NPOV article. RK 03:58, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

the NPOV article has been read, and understood. I suggest you try

the latter. If we are to allow all sides, then why has this site been so hostile to most chiropractic claims? The reason I see over and over is that because the other veiw says differently, if I am not mistaken that too is a claer violationof the NPOV policy. I see this pattern of removing chiropractic claims, and overstating the medical and scientific communities skeptic veiws on chiropractic.

I think it is ok to have it but the viewpoint should be attributed. Perhaps you should write articles about The National Council Against Health Fraud and Stephen Barrett, M.D. What I find missing is good strong recommendations of chiropractic medicine which would then balance the article. Fred Bauder 00:38, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

I do not think this should be a forum for an entire profession to defend every skeptic and crackpot opinion. I also do not feel that I should be obligated to write articals, and baby sit them to assure that my version of the truth is not edited out by an opossing voice. Bottom line this part of the artical adds nothing to the content, except a biased and skeptical opinion based on apperently isolated events.

This leads into the inclusion of chiropractic risk, while the numbers are accurate some perspective should be added. April 15, 1998 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association found that more than 2 million Americans become seriously ill every year from reactions to drugs that were correctly prescribed and taken; 106,000 Americans die annually from those side effects.

Or even a note that the results are so rare that is statistically insignificant. Even less than the "beauty parlor stroke syndrome", a rare situation when a customer leans their head back on a sink to get their hair washed.

I do not think those side notes would be nessasary, if the information was presented in a NPOV. Is it really within the scope of this site to post every arguement and counter arguement? (not signed)

Most of that stuff was put in by User:RK, a rather aggressive editor who takes a rather negative view. I agree that most of it should be put in proper perspective. Fred Bauder 13:23, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

(A)I have nothing to do with any of these reports. I have not done any of the research or studies quoted or referenced in the article. All of this work was done by others. I am only guilty of adding the points of view of these organizations. (B) Many chiropracters themselves have come to agree with these views. See the section on this very article on reform within the chiropractice community. RK 03:58, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

Fred, any response to these specific points? RK 01:45, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

You are very off on point on (B) chiropractors are entirely missrepresented in all acounts in this article, and the article on the reform specifically is need of major work.

Disputed material

This paragraph is being repeatedly removed:

Chiropractic medicine is generally rejected as being based on pseudoscience by most scientists and medical doctors. Classical chiropractic theory denies otherwise accepted medical facts about the origin of diseases, and instead holds that the correction of subluxation can cure or treat most disease. Although manipulative therapy has been shown to have some efficacy in treating back pain, headache, and other symptoms of spinal-related conditions, few rigorous studies have supported the efficacy of chiropractic medicine outside of this specific area. Many people colloquially use the term chiropractic to refer to manipulative therapy of the spine, even by non-DCs.

I can see some problems with this paragraph but most statements in it seem reasonable enough. What is the problem? Fred Bauder 11:32, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

The statements are unfounded, even if there was a way to quantify "most" and "generally" in respect to scientist and medical doctors rejecting chiropractic as a pseudoscience, there is no evidence that is the case. The next sentence implies that all chiropractors deny the "accepted medical facts about the origin of diseases" While the statement is accurate, it was the general conscientious of a hundred years ago. This can be covered in the "two schools" and/or "history" The entire paragraph should not have been deleted, but felt out of place when editing the first two sentences.

I think the attitude of the medical profession has changed recently as has the attitude of some chiropractors about mainstream medicine. My last conversation with a real chiropractor, however, was fillled with paranoia about medical doctors. I think some historical perspective should be added. Why don't you try some rewriting? Fred Bauder 13:20, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

Two of the people I work with are (former) chiropracters. They refuse to get themselves vaccinated against diseases, and reccomend to parents that they do not vaccinate their children. They believe that viruses do not cause disease, and that vaccines do not work. One of them denies that the HIV virus causes AIDS. They tell me that they are representative of others in the field, and their statements match what I have read about some other chiropracters. They also don't believe in surgery for treating most diseases. This is why some educated result-oriented chiropracters have developed a reform movment within the field. (See article.) RK 04:05, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

Okay, so what? You know two chiropractors, and I know a few thousand. Not a single one would make all those claims, and doubt anyone of them would claim to be represenitive of the entire profession.

I just started Chiropractic College, and just know a fraction of the faculty and students, and while some are against vaccinations, not all are. Frankly, I think that those who aren't vaccinated are simply benefitting from the fact that most people are, and the resulting low rate the diseases commonly vaccinated against, but that's neither here nor there. I have, though, NEVER heard a chiropractor say that viruses didn't cause disease, or that AIDS is a result of the HIV virus. Yeah, we generally follow the idea that drugs and surgery shouldn't be used-at least not if they can be avoided. However, no responsible chiropractor will tell a patient to stop taking a drug their allopathic doctor told them to take. Also, while we might advise a patient to try to get adjusted before undergoing surgery in most cases, there are other cases where we would conceed that surgery is likely the best route, such as aneurysm. And I would just like to point out that I would be mistrustful of ANY profession that resisted reform. Any type of healthcare should be continuously adjusting to new techniques developed and new ideas found in research. Elaine M. Brady

It is certainly understandable that some older doctors still have some residual paranoia, as it was not that long ago the American Medical Association took a policy against chiropractic “first the containment of chiropractic and, ultimately, the elimination of chiropractic.”

It is of my opinion that the newer generation of MDs and DCs have much better opinions of each other and are moving forward in a cooperative to provide optimal care for their patients. I would like to do a lot of rewriting, but I fear it would be in vain. I had to take a chance with the history as it was absolutely pathetic. I am not sure I can do it justice, as there are volumes on the history of chiropractic and the people that influenced it. It seems daunting and unrewarding if people like User:RK, who have no apparent credibility or knowledge of the subject to come and "aggressively edit" with nothing more than an ambitious desire to be nothing more than skeptical of everything.

Please stop you ad homenim attacks. Personal attacks against other users are a violation of Wikipedia policy, and do nothing to improve the article. Further, your claims are wrong. I had nothing to do with any of the research which disputes claims made by chiropracters. I merely added info on the POVs of major medical organizations, and POvs from the views of reform chiropracters themselves. Don't shoot the messenger. RK 04:05, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

Please stop using the term ad homenim like this, I didnt attack your person to reject your claim. Call it a personal attack if you want, but it is just an observation of your history. Further, I am baffeled how you can say my claims are wrong. Irregaurdless why is it allowed when someone mearely states about the POV of opposing views, but the chiropractic POV is so often removed?

Dear anonymous, a personal attack is an ad homenim attack. Please learn the English langauge. And if you do nto stop your personal attacks, you will be banned. RK

Well, I came on board as a critic, a chiropractor tried to "cure" my brother's mental disability and got a lot of money for his quackery, but RK goes way to far. I'll back you up to a certain extent should a problem arise, but try to avoid the cure cancer stuff. Fred Bauder 17:49, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

Would you become critical of auto mechanics as a whole if one tried to fix your house and failed? Why would you judge an entire profession on the actions of one individual? Are there bad chiropractors? Of course. But any time you set up a system, someone will find a way to abuse it.

Maybe I am not going as far as you think. The article does not condemnd or dispute the effectiveness of spinal manipulation as a treatment for some conditions. If this is what you advocate, then you will find that I and many others would agree with you. In fact, the National Association for Chiropractic Medicine holds by this view. The criticisms in this article are not against the idea that spinal manipulation may have some medical value. Rather, these arguments are against classical chiropractice beliefs about subluxations being the cause of all or most disease, and the belief that spinal manipulation can cure all or nearly all disease. Your recent notes here seem to indicate that you do not adopt the maximalist view, so we are not polar opposites here. RK 04:13, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

Again, Fred, any comment on these specific points? I am willing to work with you. RK 01:45, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

I am certainly sorry to hear that. It is unfortunate, but every profession has a few individuals that give the rest of them a bad name. Going through the history of his page, I believe you have done a fair job at moderating. Given your personal history, I am impressed at your ability to do so. I can admit to my own bias here as well, I have benefited greatly from chiropractic in my life. Even though it is a claim fiercely debated, as a life long asthmatic I can testify to its ability to treat and manage it. I believe in it so much I have invested a great deal in my education, and am currently a chiropractic student.