Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)
The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss existing and proposed policies.
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Redirects
I've just been reverting a few edits by an anonymous user, where that user had taken away piped links and fed them through redirects. As it happens, some of the links he changed were wrong in the first place, but that's by-the-by. Anyway, he questioned my changes, and I stated that it was policy. (Refer to my talk page.) However, now I find myself in the position where I can't find where the policy of eliding redirects is written down. There's nothing explicit at Wikipedia:Redirect, or Wikipedia:How to edit a page#Links and URLs. The explanation I've given is "... I presume that this is to reduce server load (by reducing the additional code executed each time you click on a link that gets redirected)." Any pointers? Is this the reason? Shall I make policy more explicit? [[User:Noisy|Noisy | Talk]] 09:12, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Just a comment: linking to redirects in this way makes the wikitext less ugly than using piped links. — Matt 09:23, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I don't think there is a policy, because it's not a good policy. Sometimes redirects are the proper solution (they better organize "what links here" and better deal with changing articles). That's why we have redirects in the first place. anthony (see warning) 15:30, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- i may be wrong but i think in the grand scheme of things the additional server costs of redirects are bugger all. The bellman 09:30, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Possibly unfree images
Based on a previous village pump discussion, a new page is being developed to handle the removal of images used under nonfree licenses or lacking source information. A poll on whether to implement this process is at Wikipedia talk:Possibly unfree images. --Michael Snow 03:26, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The Polls Are Open: Drive Carefully
Voting has begun on the Managed Deletion policy. Note that it will actually be called "Early Deletion." The policy has been finalized, so, even if you have looked at it before, please look again and give it your vote. Voting will end on October 8, 2004. Geogre 00:46, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Year in X
Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Incorrect_date_formats states that, for example, 2000 is preferable to 2000 in film. I've lost count of the number of articles I've seen when someone has come along and changed it to the latter, breaking the agreed convention. This may be just a case of those people not knowing the rule but it is now so widespread that people just ignore it. Should the policy be reviewed or should we go through all the Year in X links and fix them? violet/riga (t) 14:34, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Please don't go through all the links and change them just yet. If anything, ask for a policy review; this convention wasn't really "agreed to" at all. The MoS's requirement was copied (somewhat out of context) from Wikipedia:WikiProject Music standards, which lists an important exception to the guideline. There may very well be other reasonable exceptions to the guidelines applicable to non-music topics. This WikiProject-specific guideline was applied to the Wikipedia as a whole with little discussion. The standards for the Wikipedia as a whole should have a strong community-wide consensus. Even the WikiProject's consensus stands on uncertain ground, judging from the objections in the archived debate about the issue (which really isn't that important of an issue, IMHO). • Benc • 08:56, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Then the policy should be reviewed - it is as important as many other consistency issues. violet/riga (t) 09:28, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- In context, the suggested change may be desirable, even if I prefer the linking the main year page. Recently I came across dates linked as [[October 3]] [[2004 in music|2004]] instead of [[October 3]] [[2004]]. I feel this should be avoid, as this breaks dynamic date formatting. The feature had ended a longlasting debate about which format to choose. -- User:Docu
Presentation of Images
At present when a reader clicks on a thumbnail image to see the larger version of the image, they see it accompanied by a lot of irrelevant and unattractive material - the name of the image file, the image's edit history and technical details of its licensing etc. What readers should see is the image, with a caption and possibly a heading. There should then be a link to the edit history and licensing details, just as there is a link from an article to the article's edit history. This seems to me to be another example of how Wikipedia is currently structured in the interests of its writers and editors rather than in the interests of readers. How much difficulty would there be in restructing the image pages in this way? Adam 02:50, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Well, Wikipedia is relatively unusual in that the boundary between readers and writers/editors is quite fuzzy; the lack of a clean separation means that sometimes a reader encounters mechanisms for editing — such as the "Edit this page" link. I guess we tolerate editor-oriented mechansisms intruding into "content" when it isn't much of a distraction. Personally, I don't see much distraction in including "What links here", history and licensing data on an image page; a user can very obviously see the image and its caption. Moreover, images are somewhat different from articles in that they are rarely used as stand-alone entities — they are nearly always used as inline elements in the article space. If we implemented your suggestion, I think there'd be little improvement for a reader, but it would be quite a cumbersome change for editors. — Matt 08:56, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Actually they can't see the caption. The caption is visible under the photo on the article page, but not on the page where the image stands alone. What the reader sees is a bunch of stuff they don't want or need to see. Why would it be a cumbersome change for editors? Adam 11:53, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Regarding a caption, an image description page should contain a description of the image, and any that don't need fixing. Your change would mean an editor would click on a "What links here" or "History" to get the editor-oriented information; this extra click would be more hassle, if not "quite cumbersome". — Matt 12:39, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- A "description of the image" is not the same thing as the caption that appears at the article page.
- This is quite correct. Indeed, many images are (or have the potential to be) reused in several pages, with completely different captions; the caption on the image page should simply describe the picture without presuming the context.
- "this extra click would be more hassle"? You're kidding. Adam 15:02, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- No, I'm not; on slow Wikipedia days, clicking a web link can result in a long wait, like 10–20 seconds. If you're doing a lot of work on images (e.g. image tagging), this would be quite a time penalty for the editor. — Matt 15:17, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
contributing your own already published material??
Do people ever post their own already published elsewhere material as wikipedia entries? How are these sort of issues of copyright and authorship dealt with?
- If copyright is entirely yours, and you are comfortable with the material you enter becoming GFDL (and free to be edited), there's no problem. If the material is in a contract with someone else, you'll have to ensure all stakeholders are comfortable with this. Radagast 15:59, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)
- To answer your question, yes. I've contributed to Wikipedia material that I wrote for my own personal website. Some was GFDL, some wasn't. It wasn't in contract with anyone else, so I was the exclusive copyright holder, making it easy to contribute. As far as I know, I'm still the copyright holder of the material I contributed, but since it's released under the GFDL, people can copy it for many uses as long as they comply with its requirements. -- Dwheeler 03:49, 2004 Oct 5 (UTC)
I would add to that: you retain copyright on all original content you add to Wikipedia. By placing it in here, you are releasing it under GFDL, but you are not giving up any other intellectual property rights. -- Jmabel 01:46, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
Proposed new VfD rule: No repeat submission of articles
- Proposed new VfD rule: No repeat submission of articles that have already passed the VfD process (w/ consensus to keep) within the next three months. Please see the proposal and vote/discuss.
Please have a look at Driveshaft (and Talk:Driveshaft) and explain to me the rationale for deleting the (apparent) stub. |l'KF'l| 20:16, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)
- Reverted and wikified it, the driveshaft deserves an article, although it will probably always be stubby. -- Solitude 11:40, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
Risk of inappropriate images appearing
I don't know if someone has already experienced the following issue in Wikipedia to date, but let me comment on it, just in case:
As there is no limitation on the uploading of images to Wikipedia, I believe that there is a chance that images that should not appear on any article (among others, pornography, images of disturbing violence, etc.), could get to appear. Even if this type of images appears for no more than an hour before the page is reverted, the damage is already done to those who come in contact with the material.
Is this risk already managed somehow? I would like to read your comments on this.--Logariasmo 04:39, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- No more than any other risk, I think. Ideally, only one person should come in contact with it - and then they should revert it. --Golbez 04:43, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)
- I don't think that casual visitors would know how to revert a page. It is even worse if it is children who visit the vandalised article.--JohnWest 04:51, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Que Sera Sera. There is no mechanism set up for it, and I doubt one would be compatible with wiki nature. --Golbez 04:58, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)
- You're right — images speak louder than words. If we ever move to a system where new articles are queued pending review by a pool of editors, new images will probably among the first parts of the wiki to be locked down. That's probably a long ways off, though. For now, the RC patrol is doing a solid job. • Benc • 10:33, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- One partial solution might be use an algorithm that tries to detect "likely pornographic" images. Like spam filters, my understanding of such algorithms is that they're imperfect but often right. I believe they generally work by noticing a lot of flesh tones in a picture that doesn't seem to be a face. For a neural net, you train like crazy, and make sure that faces are in the "okay" list. You could then delay for a short time actual viewing of such 'suspect images', placing them on a "please check this" list (where an admin might okay, or after some period of time it just becomes visible). I agree that many people perceive pictures differently than words. I don't know if people would think this worth implementing or not, nor how hard it would be. But that might be a technical and procedural way to lower the risk a little bit. It's worth noting that in almost all cases, porn images are also copyright violations, so even if you don't care about porn per se, it's still a reasonable idea to have extra controls relating to images. -- Dwheeler 03:45, 2004 Oct 5 (UTC)
- I did a little searching on filtering out porn images. I found a OSS/FS implementation of an algortihm to detect porn images, based on a larger project to detect 'bad' things called POESIA. You can see an academic paper on POESIA as a whole. SourceForge has POESIA software; see the "ImageFilter" and "Java" subdirectories for code, and "Documentation" for - well, you can guess. Presumably, you could pass an image to this code, which would tell you if it's likely to be porn or not, and then you could make other decisions based on that. One interesting thing: POESIA can also detect certain symbols, like swaztikas, if you want it to. There may be other such tools; this is just the one I found. -- Dwheeler 02:59, 2004 Oct 8 (UTC)
- That sounds like a good technical solution. Like any technical solution, it has rough spots (e.g., we would need some mechanism to stop script kiddies from uploading tons of garbage images thus forcing the filter to eat up CPU cycles). I'd suggest putting in a feature request at MediaZilla and/or the mailing lists. • Benc • 09:48, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Another thought: we could maintain a database of checksums of deleted images. Any uploaded image matching a deleted checksum would be sent to the "check me" queue. This would prevent non-free images from being re-uploaded, excepting malicious users who modify the image slightly to change the checksum. • Benc • 09:56, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- My suggestion would be to restrict the uploading of images to registered users and/or to users who have already participated actively (posted more than once), as they are less likely to post this sort of things. Obviously, it is slightly against the open policy of Wikipedia, but it might be required in the future, and I believe it does more good than harm.
- Another reason for such a policy: Inexperienced users are more prone to unknowingly upload copyrighted images.--Lauther 06:56, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is a terrible idea - how big a problem is this? The algorhythms cannot possibly filter out all offensive images - this will just lead to 'gaming' the system. Much better just to rely on people visiting the recent changes (is there a 'recently uploaded pictures' page? Intrigue 23:33, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- IMHO, the filtering algorithm idea is secondary to the main idea of sending new images to a "waiting for approval" queue, where admins would have to look at it briefly to make sure the image isn't inappropriate. Admins already do this on images that are already publicly accessible. This idea is just adding a safety net; it should catch a lot of the copyvios and outright vandalism — which we get a lot of, as far as images go.
You do have a very good point, though. I can see how implementing the algorithm as an automatic approval mechanism would encourage "gaming". Instead, we could send all new images to the approval queue, with those that the algorithm determines to be porn sending the image to a second queue, "probable porn". If and when a user's image gets sent to the porn queue, a message (or warning) is generated for that user instructing him to contact an admin if the image isn't porn, or to knock it off the image is porn. Unappealed images in the porn queue would be automatically deleted in three days. The regular pending-approval queue would have to be cleared out by admins on a regular basis, but the vast majority would be quick and obvious approvals.
Does this sound like a better solution, or are you entirely against the idea of a new images queue "safety net"? • Benc • 04:22, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"Encumbered" or "Protected" — POV?
Is it biased to describe an invention Foo as being "encumbered by patents" or "protected by patents"? To me, the word "encumbered" has negative connotations, and similarly "protected" has positive connotations. What would be a good alternative? — Matt 09:29, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Darrien 11:19, 2004 Sep 28 (UTC)
- Yes. You may also want to move this to Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) so it will receive appropriate attention.
- Darrien 11:57, 2004 Sep 28 (UTC)
- From what I understand, encumbered is the correct legal term. Although wikipedia often uses other terms because of common usage, so other people may chime in. I've heard both. btw, since I happen to know the definition of encumbered as it applies here, I don't think it is a pejorative, of course, others may. -Vina 21:46, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Credit for images
For years publications would customarily (US) use images without crediting the creator of that image, but that has changed in the US. Now credit is routinely given for photographs and artwork.
Is this official policy on Wikipedia?
In my view, it should be, unless the creator of the image has contributed it anonymously. Who made what images is a matter of history and knowledge as much as other article content.
This, however, raises another issue. Suppose a contributor to an article on Bugs Bunny (say, one Elmer Fudd) uploads one of his images for use in that article, and refers to himself in the caption in this fashion:
Cwazy Wabbit Eating a Cawwot (Photo by Elmer Fudd, 1999)
Anyone see a problem with this? (Other than Elmer's spelling?)
--NathanHawking 01:17, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)
- I see no problem; I credit all images I upload that I make as "Made by User:Golbez." --Golbez 01:27, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
- Exactly. In the caption, visible to readers of the article.--NathanHawking 01:43, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)
- Oh. In that situation, no, attribution should not be made in the article unless it's somehow relevant to the article. If people want attribution, they can click it. --Golbez 01:31, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
- Why do you say this? Is this Wikipedia policy?
- Custom in US print publications and even on websites is to give visible credit for the photograph or artwork. See MSNBC Space Plane.--NathanHawking 01:43, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not paper. I don't know where the policy is stated, or even if a policy is stated, but that's generally how it works here, unless it's a corporate source like CNN or the AP. But usually, having attribution on the image page seems sufficient. --Golbez 01:55, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
- Noted that Wikipedia is not paper, hence my observation that even online publications generally credit the source or creator of images. We attribute quotations and fair use passages of text from sources.
- If articles had sole authors, noting the authorship would seem appropriate. It only becomes impractical because of the large number of contributors and modifiers, thus the history of an article will have to do. Wikipedia documentation seems very clear (to me) on this rationale.
- But images do not suffer from that same ambiguity. If corporate sources like CNN or AP are credited in the article text, why not anyone who contributes an original image? Explicit credit might encourage more to create good images for Wikipedia. (Wow! Your name in print! Silly, maybe, but human nature.) --NathanHawking 02:32, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)
- Don't quote me on that corporate thing, I was trying to think of any instance friendly to what you're saying. And the credit is just as hidden as it is for the article, so why should people be less motivated to contribute an image as an article? It takes at least one click to see who contributed either to an article or to an image, and in fact, takes more clicks to find out what was specifically contributed by the person. Image attributions are fewer clicks away. --Golbez 04:47, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
- It's not explicitly stated that you shouldn't. However, it violates some explicit guidelines implicitly. Wikipedia:Captions has guidelines for what should go in image captions, and a short summary of what goes on image description pages. The short of it is, captions should be short and to the point. Putting a credit in the caption pushes the caption farther from both.
- Print publications put credit lines next to images because they have no choice. MSNBC et al does it because they don't make effective use of the technology they have on hand. We have image description pages for voluminous information about the image itself, we don't need to clutter the articles with information that isn't relevant. -- Cyrius|✎ 02:14, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I don't know how you could say that "Image courtesy of NASA." (for example) clutters an article. Now on the other hand if someone wrote a small paragraph on how they created the image, that would be clutter! However "short" captions are not always appropriate. Creating captions of 3 or 4 short sentences can add a lot of value in some cases, but of course this should be used sparingly. We should always avoid being too rigid in our guidelines and always attempt to add value when we can. If you haven't guessed already, I am for including short credits in the captions when appropriate. Authors (and even government agencies) ask to be credited for the images we use, and I doubt most people click through all of the images in an article just to read the credits. —Mike 05:04, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
- I don't know about yours, but my encyclopedia (and my dictionary, for that matter) puts the image credits at the end, not in the caption for the image. So I'd say what we're doing is roughly analogous to the online equivalent of that. anthony (see warning) 02:16, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- For me, the chief problem with photo credits in article captions is that they have a negative effect, albeit a very small one, for the reader — it's a tiny bit of distracting and (typically) irrelevant information — I imagine that it's comparatively rare for anyone to have an interest in the authorship of a typical Wikipedia photo. As a courtesy to the photographer we should include the credits in the Image Description page, but as a courtesy to the reader we shouldn't clutter up articles with metadata. — Matt 09:10, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Shouldn't we encourage people to include references with the uploaded images whenever possible? Not only would it make much easier the confirmation whether or not the image is in the public domain, it would also be of great interest for people who want to find out more about the image (painter, original publication etc.) – for example, the image of Odin is very nice, and I have no doubt it is indeed in the public domain. But how would I proceed if I wanted to determine the painter, and maybe find other paintings by him? That's just a random example, it's very common for images to have no reference. dab 13:18, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- When I include copyrighted images of experts with permission I often give credit in the article, because this makes the copyright holder happier about giving the permission (exposure for them), and might encourage them to give more permission for stuff in the future. See for example Carl Hiaasen. Amateur work shouldn't usually be credited in the article though. Derrick Coetzee 05:26, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I guess I might agree if I better understood the distinction between "amateur work" and its opposite. When I write for Sky Publishing or Kalmbach Publishing presumably I am a "professional writer" but when I write for Wikipedia, am I an amateur? When I shoot photos for Kalmbach or ANS I am a professional but the other 45 weeks of the year I am an amateur?
- I do understand what you are saying, but I think the issue of the professional status of the content creator is of no relevance while the quality of the content is highly relevant. On that view we should credit not for professionalism but for performance. -- Jeff Medkeff
- Sometimes a picture gains extra credibility when the creator is known. A picture of some spectacular starscape gives an entirely different impression if the caption says "Hubble Telescope" than some artist, be they ever so well known. --Phil | Talk 08:08, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)
- I do understand what you are saying, but I think the issue of the professional status of the content creator is of no relevance while the quality of the content is highly relevant. On that view we should credit not for professionalism but for performance. -- Jeff Medkeff
Superscripts and subscripts
I've seen SUP tags used for superscripts in Wikipedia articles a lot. I assume SUB is also used. Both are problematic. They are not portable. I have an article on my website discussing the problems and suggesting cures:
Using Superscripts and Subscripts in Web Pages
In short, I recommend against using the SUP and SUB tags. For the most common use of the SUP tag, exponentiation, I recommend using the Unicode up-arrow, ↑, written as ↑. At the very least, even if pages already having SUP are left as they are, I request that the use of the up-arrow should be granted status as an officially acceptable policy for any future articles. --Shlomital 17:36, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)
- In general, portability problems should be solved by updates to the MediaWiki software, not arbitrary requirements for our editors. I don't really like the use of "x↑2" instead of "x2", "H2SO4" instead of "H2SO4", etc. First, this goes against the most commonly used conventions for using super and subscripts in science. Second, the vast majority of our readers use browsers that can accurately render these elements. Additionally, many browsers have poor support for Unicode elements, despite being able to render SUP and SUB just fine. Third, MediaWiki explicitly allows SUP and SUB, along with a few dozen other HTML tags; the software creators thought it through before allowing the tags. In a nutshell — I agree that portability is a good thing, but not at the expense of clarity. • Benc • 19:33, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- It hasn't to do with Wikipedia, but with the nature of copying and pasting into editors of plain text. Wherever, no matter where, you have a 109, it will end up as 109 in a text editor. That is the portability problem. I find the up-arrow (10↑9) or, failing that, the caret (10^9), to be both clear and portable. The importance of this issue for Wikipedia is that it's a resource for freely copying text from; therefore, I feel it is important that Wikipedia should be as optimised as possible for copying of text. I realise the legacy of SUP is huge. May I therefore ask, instead of making the up-arrow compulsory, at least making it acceptable? There is already one article (Extended ASCII) in which I have used it. As for browser support, browsers that don't support Unicode (like Netscape 4) are going the way of the dinosaur; and if that's still a problem, the caret is ASCII. And also: as I state in my article, chemical subscripts are an area where SUB tags can be used with no reservations. --Shlomital 21:19, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)
- I still think this issue can and should be solved using a software solution. We already have Special:Export to convert articles to XML; why not have a Special:ExportToText? Besides, anyone doing a cut-and-paste from their browser is simply asking for trouble. What about images, <math> markup, tables, and so forth? • Benc • 22:26, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I hate to be curt, but this is bullshit. As Benc said, anyone who copies text out of their browser in a naive way is losing all sorts of formatting information, including such basic things as bold and italics. Are you going to suggest we replace those with textual equivalents? This is the web, not Usenet, and it's usually best to use widely familiar notation. This is not a portability problem at all but simply how copying text out of popular browsers works — it's a client issue with an easy workaround. Let them save the page as HTML if they want to keep the formatting. People really aren't all that dumb. Derrick Coetzee 05:20, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- It'll have to be an export to some kind of formatted text file format. Any export to plain text will have the same problem of 109 coming up as 109. When people want to preserve the whole page, they use their browser to save the whole page, with all its markup and accompanying image. But when they want to quote part of the text, they do a cut and paste from the browser. The trouble with 109 is the same as with italics--not surviving pasting into a text editor. Italics are sometimes critical, sometimes not, but 109 is certainly a whole different thing from 109. The question is how much you're willing to make the contents of the encyclopedia dependent upon formatted text and embedded images (which are normally frills).
I don't know what text editor you're using, but every ASCII text editor I know of is going to have problems copy-pasting 10↑9. Pasting that into OpenOffice.org works, but then so does pasting normal superscripts and subscripts (though admittedly sup/sub is lost upon pasting into Microsoft Word 97, while the up-arrow works). But that's beside the point. I agree with Derrick above; the preservation of formatting when copy-pasting into other applications seems like a weak reason to eliminate superscripts and subscripts, which to me are far more intuitive than the up-arrow (which suffers from the additional problem that it may be have other meanings and be interpreted differently, or confused with some kind of vector notation). Not only that, but using sup and sub are apparently required for some languages to render properly. They give at least a modicum of semantic meaning to the text; the use of up-arrow does not. -- Wapcaplet 22:19, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Concur with Wapcaplet. --Improv 13:41, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is not a feasible solution. Conventional mathematical notation exists and changing it to something completely contrary to convention just so it can be copied and pasted properly is somewhat an absurd solution. Regardless, the up arrow means something different in mathematics, see Knuth's up arrow notation. Dysprosia 03:22, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- No, it means the same thing! See Knuth's up arrow notation#Definition: a↑b means ab. Gdr 13:23, 2004 Oct 18 (UTC)
Fundraising Fame
The banner says it costs $10 an hour to run Wikimedia websites. Why don't we make it so that every person that donates $10 "sponsors" an hour? So instead of the box that constantly says to donate money, it would say "This hour of Wikipedia is brought to you by x user. To sponsor a Wikipedia hour, donate here" or something to that affect. That way people would get recognition for donating and more people would check out their talk pages and they could showcase their pet projects or their blog or whatever on their talk pages. Salasks 03:52, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
- Then we'd have to see these ads all year instead of just for a few weeks. anthony (see warning) 04:20, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- It is a sweet idea, and grumps like Anthony could use their monobook.css to remove them. However it would be tantamount to Wikipedia accepting adertising. This comment was brought to you by Proctor&Gamble, whose soap poweder will get your whites whiter. --Tagishsimon
- That is if your monobook.css works. Mine doesn't. —Mike 22:00, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)
- It is a sweet idea, and grumps like Anthony could use their monobook.css to remove them. However it would be tantamount to Wikipedia accepting adertising. This comment was brought to you by Proctor&Gamble, whose soap poweder will get your whites whiter. --Tagishsimon
Deletion addition
I added this to Wikipedia:Deletion Policy#Decision Policy
- Please do not remove any votes from any VfD or like discussion. If you suspect a vote of being a sockpuppet or otherwise invalid, mark it as such with a comment, and any pertinent links, and leave it there. The admin who reviews the discussion will investigate and decide whether or not to take that vote into account. By not removing any votes, we ensure that there can be no arguments over who removed what and why.
I think everyone should be able to understand why this is generally good. Arguments have come up regarding this, including in the recent GNAA discussion. Of course there may be exceptions like if there are ever hundreds of sockpuppet votes, but I think that in general, people should adhere to this. Just wanted to let people know that I added this, since its not a trivial change. —siroχo 20:55, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)
Two propositions
One of which has been made before - the In the News and Current Events must be less Americocentric. US "presidential debates" and other crap are just not interesting enough, and they are rather irritating when a lot of other articles and news items deserve attention. All this and more has been covered extensively before in previous discussions, but no action has been taken yet (save your excuses, heard them before), I believe one excerpt exists here: Template_talk:In_the_news#Americocentrism.
Next, the map of India used in several articles is inaccurate and offensive - no mention is made of the "disputed" territories or that the boundary shown is neither an international boundary nor an Indian-accepted representation of territories under Indian control, except in the main article on India and perhaps the Kashmir article and one or two more; the CIA map is used by default in all other articles and is WRONG - it is a map that reveals CIA and perhaps American government policies, but is incorrect, irritating, and unacceptable. Several instant remedies are possible: use colour-coded/ shaded maps that indicate dispute ; mention dispute in image captions ; mention inaccuracy ; explain that current CIA map is just that ; explain current map shows boundaries definitely under Indian administration, not the international boundary (which, to be as NPOV as possible, does not exist.) Throw out the revert mongering meddlers and the ignorant and implement a quick and effective policy - above all CHANGE THE @#*&^%@! MAP. Damn it. -- Simonides 22:49, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Am beginning to work on a replacement. Apparently, this is part of why Nagaland was protected. [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk)]] 03:35, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
- Peter/Poccil, I appreciate the interest, but I can't seem to see the new page you've put up. Secondly, it is not only the Nagaland article but a host of other articles that use the same map/ the same boundaries with variations in the image according the location being indicated. I see that you have worked on one map alone - would it be possible to replace all by changing the root image, and enforce the changes with an explanatory policy? Sorry if this all sounds like a lot of work - as a non-admin I have limited powers. -- Simonides 23:21, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Peter, thanks once again for working on the map. I've posted a couple of notes about it - that it is still inaccurate, but this time because the projection needs correction, rather than political/ideological concerns - but it's a lot better. Could you please answer my questions about the next steps to take - thanks. -- Simonides 13:41, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I've replaced the default States of India map on the India article - now if some editors could use it to replace maps on all India-related articles where the old format was in use, I'd appreciate it. I'll try to do my bit, but I'm on a dialup connection so uploading/ image loading etc is really really slow - thanks! -- Simonides 14:25, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Your first proposition seems nonsensical to me. You may personally not be interested in "crap" like the US Presidential debates, but clearly many people in the world, both in and out of the US, are interested. They were multiple times the top story on the BBC's website, for example, which to my knowledge is not a US news source. They were also on the front page of newspapers in Greece, and I'm sure were I to regularly read news sources from other countries besides those two, I would've found them prominently discussed elsewhere as well. The simple fact is that US actions affect the world disproportionately, so the world tends to be interested in them. You may not like this, but Wikipedia isn't here to change what people are interested in, just to document it. Therefore, things such as the US presidential debates that are covered prominently throughout the world must continue to be covered prominently in Wikipedia as well. --Delirium 07:04, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
- Sorry about the late reply, but I am seeing your message for the first time. I don't think there's much to say in reply except that the preponderant existence of a bias does not automatically justify the bias; you're not the first one to confuse the two and if you follow the links I posted above, you will see that the same points have been made before in other words and were refuted on similar grounds (BTW, I thought it was obvious my calling the debates "crap" was just letting off steam, but they are closer to crap than substance when they stay on In the News for three days and jostle out important news from the rest of the world, or get put back on by pushy Americocentric (self-conscious or not) editors). -- Simonides 23:02, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Image tagging question
Would someone well versed in copyright issues please come to Wikipedia talk:Image copyright tags#Author gone and discuss how to tag images which were made by Wikipedians who have since left Wikipedia and cannot give explicit consent that the images are tagged as GFDL? An user has suggested that they should be tagges with CopyrightedFreeUse which, IMO, is violation of users' copyright. Nikola 23:26, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Bodymodification, Editwars, and Legal Liability
Bodymodification, Editwars, and Legal Liability
I noticed an edit war between intactivists and circumcisiosexuals. This got me thinking about modymodification and legal liability:
If parents would follow the advice of an article just reverted by procircumcisionist and based on that advice, the parents circumcise a healthy baby with no medical problems and the baby dies, the parents might sue Wikimedia for wrongful death. Contrarily, an anticircumcisionist might revert an article just before parents with a child requiring a medically necessary circumcision looks at the article. The parents decide not to circumcise based on the article. Again, the child dies, and again, the parents sue Wikimedia.
I have an idea which will kill the editwars and save Wikimedia from legal accountability:
At the top of every article about bodymodification, have a disclaimer like this as a serversideinclude:
"It is the policy of the Foundation Wikimedia that bodymodification should be an informed decision of the modifyee beyond the age of majority."
Then we can remove all pro/con-sections from the articles, thus ending the editwars. Since occasionally circumcision is necessary, we can have an additional disclaimer there:
"It is the recommendation of the Foundation Wikimedia that with the exception of emergencies, before one gets a medically necessary circumcision, one receive a second opinion from either a pediatric urologist if the patient is a child or an urologist if the patient is an adult."
We can modify this and put this disclaimer on all articles about medicine:
"It is the recommendation of the Foundation Wikimedia that with the exception of emergencies, one should get a second opinion"
While me talk about legal accountability of Wikimedia and medicine, perhaps we should have a disclaimer like this on medical articles:
"Important disclaimer:
- The information on Wikipedia is for educational purposes only and should not be considered to be medical advice. It is not meant to replace the advice of the physician who cares for you or your family. All medical advice and information should be considered to be incomplete without a physical exam, which is not possible without a visit to your doctor."
These disclaimers would end the circumcisioneditwars and protect Wikimedia from lawsuites.
Anonymous Coward
- There's already a Disclaimers link in the footer that's at the bottom of every page. Goplat 02:14, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Stating that medically unnecessary bodymodification should be the informed decision of the modifyee past the age of majority should be added to the disclaimer. Ŭalabio 03:10, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)
- I second this. Ŭalabio 03:10, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)
- Regardless of the issue or circumstances, I don't think Wikipedia should make ANY recommencations or content-specific policy decisions. We are a repository of knowledge from various viewpoints, trying to give a balanced and neutral viewpoint to every subject. To directly endorse a course of action, no matter how well-intentioned, opens us up for liability; even if this is intended to avoid liability. If we make no direct statements and let the facts and views speak for themselves, people can make up their own minds and act on their own conscience, not on ours. Radagast 12:59, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
- I think "second opinion" is misleading. Wikipedia should present facts, but leave diagnosis and treatment to a trained and certified physician. Any medical disclaimer, in my opinion, needs to state this clearly. Even if there are MDs posting to Wikipedia, given the open nature of it, we cannot guarantee 100% accuracy, nor can we ask readers information to help them make a decision. I think anyone coming here for medical advice is in for trouble, however, someone coming here for education and impartial information on a medical topic should be able to learn something. John Gaughan 15:06, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- A "this medical article shouldn't be taken as medical advice" tag is a good idea. A specific tag for the circumcision articles is not a great idea. Tempshill 23:40, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Sexuality in biographies
I note that the reference to G. H. Hardy's homosexuality, a trait ascribed to him by a number of people who knew him (Snow, Littlewood, Turing) has been removed from his biography. This has been done not because the information was not correct, but because this sort of information is not regarded ny some people as suitable to a biography. Why is this, and is this any kind of policy? If it is a policy, what precisely is the policy and what is its basis?
I note for example that Michelanglo's biography discusses his sexuality extensively, and Swinburne's mentions masochism. Is this because it is considered relevant to the artist? Hardy was also a literary figure, and his romanticizing of Ramanujan's remarkable gifts might well have something to do with his sexuality both directly and indirectly.
- Some random comments: I think it's unquestionably necessary for at least some biographies — Alan_Turing#Prosecution_for_homosexuality.2C_and_Turing.27s_death, for example. For other people, it's less clear cut. My personal opinion is that you have to answer at least two questions:
- Why are we interested in this person? Is there interest in the person themselves, or are they primarily known for an important contribution? For example, people are intrigued by Turing's life beyond his contributions to logic, computer science, etc.
- What kind of impact does their sexuality have on the "reason for interest"?
- For a famous mathematician, such as Hardy, you could argue that his (rumoured?) sexuality was a private matter and of no relevance to his work or how he came to be famous. You could, I guess, also argue that there is now a wider interest in the details of Hardy's life, so it is worth mentioning — it's notable if someone is homosexual in a culture where it was considered atypical, taboo or even illegal (making it much more notable than if he were heterosexual). We do, after all, include other "life-trivia" such as "Hardy never married, and in his final years he was cared for by his sister." — Matt 10:38, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
As I pointed out, Hardy is also a literary figure; his A Mathematician's Apology is still in print after 64 years and is considered a classic; Graham Greene calling it "the best account of what it is like to be a creative artist". To say that he never married amounts to a wink and a nod under the circumstances; isn't it better simply to come right out with it? In any case it seems at least as relevant as his fascination with cricket or his atheism. User: Gene Ward Smith
- So long as someone's sexuality is not the focus or most emphasized aspect of their biography on any article here, there is no reason why their sexual and other preferences should not be mentioned, particularly when, as Matt noted, they were taboo or illegal (which was the case with homosexuality in England at the time). It does seem silly to mention it in biographies of very recent Western celebrities however, because they don't face the same challenges and mentioning it seems like overemphasis (IMO)... - Simonides 23:27, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- They don't face the same challenges, but they usually face different ones. For popular entertainers it can influence how closely they guard their privacy; for political figures it has bearing on their policy positions (e.g. either explaining why a conservative Republican favored a gay rights bill, or casting doubt on his integrity if he did not). Shying away from that particular aspect of the person's life when other aspects are discussed implies that it is scandalous or offensive (a POV with which I disagree). In most situations, I don't think that merely mentioning a person's homosexuality is "overemphasis" any more than mentioning another person's apparent heterosexuality (by referring to his wife and seven children). It's simply objective honesty. And I think we're a long way from the point where a homosexual or bisexual orientation really isn't significant to a person's biography; someday when biographers are working on the Wikipedia entries, books, biopics, videogames, and holonovels about me, they're going to find my sexual orientation far more interesting and informative about me than the city or the specific year in which I was born, or what the names of my sisters were. Tverbeek 02:04, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Also don't underestimate the influence this can have on young gay people, who will most likely not be told anyone in history is gay in schools. While it may not be at all relevant to the person's work it is sometimes very relevant to readers as it may give them something on which to relate. - [[User:Cohesion|cohesion ☎]] 06:06, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)
Just to play devil's advocate for a moment; should a person's heterosexuality be mentioned? My own view is that for Oscar Wilde, for example, his sexuality is relevant because it played a major part in his public life, but for many other figures it isn't. Wikipedia is not here to provide role models but to be an encyclopaedia, at the end of the day. Filiocht 11:22, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Well, if their heterosexuality is somehow notable, yes. For example, if (as I believe) Aubrey Beardsley was heterosexual (and if we can get a reasonably authoritative statement to that effect), that would merit mention, since his close association with Oscar Wilde and the aestheticist movement would probably make people guess otherwise. -- Jmabel 01:58, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
In my opinion, homosexuality or bisexuality should be mentioned if there is some proof of it aside from rumors and urban legends. In the past, when homosexuality have been illegal, there have been truckloads of malicious rumors that have been used for defamatory purposes. They are not necessarily based in fact. I have also seen unfounded claims (althought I have not noticed any in Wikipedia as of yet) that most of the famous historical people have been closet homosexuals, which is about the same thing in reverse. If the persons have clearly had same-sex beloveds or have clearly indicated that they are homosexuals or bisexuals, that should be mentioned. That should be emphasized mainly if their fame or important event of their life or career was due to their sexuality (in Turing's case, the cause of his loss of security rating) - Skysmith 08:18, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure. If, like Forster, the person's sexuality is of great importance to the work they produce over their lifetime, or emerges as a prominent or constant theme within their work, then yes, their sexuality should be mentioned. Equally, Alan Turing's sexuality is important, as Matt Crypto points out, because it plays an important part in our understanding of his life.
- But there is a problem with sticking someone's sexuality in their biography as a minor detail, and/or especially next to their profession. For example,
- "Jane Doe is a lesbian playwright..."
- as opposed to simply
- "Jane Doe is a playwright..."
- can, IMHO, be seen as pigeonholing and has no place in an encyclopedia. If you take the view that sexuality is something you are born with, then if it has little influence on our understanding of a person's life and actions, it is no more useful than saying-
- "Jane Doe is a blue-eyed playwright...".
- Just a thought. Shikasta 18:18, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- What I meant is something like this. If the aforementioned Jane Doe would be famous for writing lesbian-themed plays, she could be specifically listed as "lesbian playwright". In that case her fame would be based on her favorite theme. Otherwise she would be listed as a playwright and the fact that she is a lesbian could be mentioned elsewhere in the article, for example in a context of a same-sex partner. - Skysmith 08:29, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Good point. We wouldn't say "Isaac Asimov was a bisexual writer", we'd say "Isaac Asimov was a science fiction writer" and mention his bisexuality where relevant; but we might say "Freddie Mercury was a musician and gay icon" or use a similar lead. -Sean Curtin 01:49, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
Eliminating titles of class distinction
I think Wikipedia would be better off without titles of class distinction (i.e. Administrator, Bureaucrat) and have all logged-in users obtain privileges of sysops, etc. Let all logged-in users become known as Wiki staff and have all these privileges. This idea was brought up by User:Sam Spade on his attitude towards adminship. Let the "social classes" system in Wikipedia break up or be eliminated, just like the internationally widespread elimination of titles of nobility. Marcus2 14:47, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I think this would cause chaos and anarchy. Maybe not a whole lot at first, but it would get worse until the very open nature of Wikipedia would be in jeopardy. Any anonymous and open medium needs to have some way to keep the trolls in check, be it Wiki sysops, forum moderators, operators on irc, even comment moderation/scoring like Slashdot. John Gaughan 15:13, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- It's a theoretically wonderful idea that would be extremely attractive in a world free of malevolence. Sadly, experience shows that as hard as some people may wish it, the World Wide Web is not such a world. However, there's nothing to stop anyone who wants to from creating their own Wiki and establishing whatever policies they see fit; it should only take a short time experimenting with such an social structure to edify the experimenter. Signed, someone who tried to run a BBS on the principle of guaranteed free speech until several avowed Nazis decided to try to take over the system. --jpgordon 16:51, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Even in anarchy, there are still peacekeepers. --Golbez 18:58, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
- Clay Shirky has a nice explanation of why sysops are required in online communities: [1] DenisMoskowitz 20:22, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)
- I actually would suggest we move the other way -- I don't think young accounts -- ones that have under a certain number of edits or that were created too recently, should be able to perform certain actions established users have (e.g. move pages, VfD, etc), and further, that anonymous users should be prohibited from editing entirely, outside of the sandbox. --Improv 15:20, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- That would be contrary to wiki nature, that anyone is allowed to contribute regardless of giving their identity. I doubt that policy can ever change. --Golbez 17:25, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
- We need the class system. If we didn't then one idiot could cause a lot of problems since he would have the same powers as an administrator. Making everyone totally equal has never worked. There needs to be some people with more power then others because some people care about Wikipedia more then others. Remember, if something isn't broken don't try and fix it. I like the system the way it is. --NeoJustin 21:02, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
- Keep in mind that the anon/user/administrator/bureaucrat/steward/Jimbo "hierarchy" was never intended to become a set of social classes or a caste system. It was set up to protect the Wikipedia itself: we need people who can delete stuff and block vandals, but if everyone could do it, human nature would cause the Wikipedia to descend into chaos. No human society is without some form of leadership, be it dictatorship, aristocracy, republicanism, or democracy. (Wikipedia combines all four, to varying degrees.) In reality, the social and political distinctions between user and administrator are extremely minute. I've been both; take my word for it. • Benc • 05:31, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Queen's v American English
This topic must have been covered before somewhere else. I'm noticing a lot of centres, metres, harbours, and judgements going on in Wikipedia articles alongside centers, meters, harbors, and judgments. Is there an ongoing discussion about using Queen's versus American English, or has this already been decided somewhere? If anyone can just point me to a discussion already in place I'd appreciate it. Thehappysmith 15:10, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I do not remember where I saw it (a quick look around turns up nothing), but I believe the policy is that each article should be consistent. For example, if an article uses "metre" then use the British forms. If an article uses "meter" then use the U.S. versions of words. Do not add "kilometre" to an article talking about "meters" because it is not consistent. John Gaughan 15:17, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- The basic standard is, be consistent within the article, and for articles with a clear British interest, go with that spelling (i.e. London), and for articles with a clear American interest (i.e. Mt. St. Helens), go with American spelling. --Golbez
- Just a few comments:
- I hadn't heard the form of english spelling used outside of North America called "Queens English" before. To me (an Australian) I thought "Queens English" meant a form of english speech, such as using "one" to refer to the first person among others. I normally call what is referred to as "Queens English" in this post, "International English".
- I changed cubic kilometer to cubic kilometre in Mt. St. Helens a few days ago, because cubic kilometer was redlinked, and because I thought international measurements should match international spelling, and US measurements should match US spelling. It got changed back, but i didn't stress about it.
- "For articles with a clear British interest".. I would think that should be "For articles without a clear US interest", as everywhere else (I'm not sure about Canada) uses that form.
- What combination of US/international spelling/measurements does Canada use? Actually nevermind, I'll go read the articles and find out :)
- -- Chuq 02:51, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Just a few comments:
- Yes, this person has misinterpreted the term "Queen's English", which refers to a rather specifically aristocratic UK form.
- cubic kilometer should redirect to cubic kilometre. The latter looks quite foreign to a U.S. eye.
- "For articles with a clear British interest" should probably be something like "For articles with a clear British Commonwealth interest". But if you think that, as a Yank, I'm going to trouble myself to neatly write in Commonwealth English when I'm writing about Argentina or Romania, you're out of your skull. Topics with no strong connection to the English-speaking world are just going to reflect their primary authors' preferences.
- Yeah, Canada's somewhere between. I believe that no one but those who've grown up with it cna comfortably reproduce a specifically Canadian English. -- Jmabel 02:04, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
- There has been an interesting discussion in the Wikipedia:UK Wikipedians' notice board about this subject under the title Erosion of British English usage and spellings. Dieter Simon 23:15, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Whilst agreeing with the most of the comments raised above, I personally suggest that, wherever possible, words and phrases should be chosen so they aren't particularly UK/US/another form of English. For instance - instead of 'organisation' or 'organization', you can use 'group', don't refer to a 'public' school, but use 'private' school instead. Don't refer to meters or cubic metres, m or m3 is easy enough to have in their stead. Sometimes this isn't possible, and the flow of the article is more important than thinking of a universally accepted alternative word/phrase. But wherever possible, use a linguistically neutral term. jguk 20:54, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Policy proposal: Administrator Activity Policy
A new policy proposal has been created, titled "Administrator Activity Policy". It can be found here. Discussion is set to last two weeks followed by a two week vote. Feel free to direct your comments to the talk page thereof. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 23:23, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)
Fancruft
I believe the guidelines need to be a tad clearer concerning deletion, redirection, or merging of fancruft articles. Pages have been made on minute characters from shows like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Animaniacs, DuckTales and Tiny Toon Adventures that do not belong here. Some, like the ones from Tiny Toons and Animaniacs, can be easily deleted, because the same information can be found on the show's main page. Others, like Buffy, have literally dozens of such pages to their name with a lot of information on them. Some have said that they could be moved to "minor character" gatherings on single articles, which has already been accomplished for shows like South Park. I think that's a good idea, but it still remains to be fancruft that makes little sense to anyone else, and even in these circumstances, I don't think deletion is out of the question. Any thoughts? Ian Pugh 17:23, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- One compromise that has been reached, in the case of The Apprentice, has been to do just as you described -- move minor character information into a list page, or the main page, if sufficiently small in amount. One of the problems in making this kind of judgement is finding a principled position covering, say, Mr. Spock, Jigglypuff, and Kylantha. Figures such as Mr. Spock may have some significance to the general populance -- it could be said that he's the most famous fictional character from sci-fi. On the other hand, there's little reason we should know the entire fictional career. This brings to mind a question -- should the content of the article be related to the scope of notability? Particular, if person A, real or not, is notable for X, should we go much beyond X in describing them? How much detail do we want? We might, for example, decide that blood type, date of birth, first love, favourite foods, resume, family tree, and similar all belong on Wikipedia for someone who happens to be notable for something, or we might establish a rule of thumb to deal with this kind of thing. This is what I'd advocate, roughly -- if we can't explain why Jugglypuff or Kylantha are notable to society, they should not have an article, and if they do have an article, it should not go too far beyond a through exploration of the ties to notability. Thoughts? --Improv 18:12, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I don't mind including fan information on various fictional universes. Wikipedia doesn't have a page count limit, and it frankly makes it a richer encyclopedia. The widespread coverage of J.R.R. Tolkein's fictional universe, for example, has probably brought in a lot of Wikipedia users, who then go on to edit other (even non-fiction) articles. In my mind, the biggest problem is that if minor characters have their very own article entry, and they might intersect with other entries, soon just about any entry will be ambiguous. If they're a minor character, it's probably worth considering putting them in a main article on their source. In any case, I think Wikipedia should cover all knowledge... even the knowledge of fictional universes. Let's face it, the world of literature is wide and influential, and ignoring it will ignore things that are important to many. To deal with size of printed materials, the real need will be to make sure that these things are categorized well.. then a printer can automatically remove them if desired. Besides, if this is the worst problem for Wikipedia, things are going really well. -- Dwheeler 03:13, 2004 Oct 8 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not paper. Fancruft is fine IMO if the article is really well written and if the subject deserves an article longer than a stub. Tempshill 00:01, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- It's also important for the writers to maintain a sense of context. This is, after all, a general encyclopedia. People need to remember that a wolverine was a species of carnivore long before it was the name of a Canadian mutant. MK 04:25, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Since we don't currently have a problem with too much content, I think minor character fancruft should be left alone unless it requires a disambiguation page, at which time those involved should decide if it should be consolidated. Otherwise, leave it alone. It lets people get angry about how biased wikipedia is, favoring US TV shows over whole continents. (This is reasonable, but the answer is too add more material, not remove existing material.) ;-) JesseW 07:41, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Has anyone considered moving the stuff over to wikibooks? That seems like the best and most appropriate place for the minutiae that don't fall into the "encyclopedic" category. —Mike 00:42, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
If an article about fancruft has potential to become encyclopedic or is encyclopedic, and the piece of fancruft is of reasonable notability within the surrounding fandom, I see absolutely no reason to delete it. If its a stub, you can of course merge it to some list. Wikipedia is not paper, and one of its greatest attributes is being able to have thousands upon thousands of articles about topics that people enjoy but a normal encyclopedia doesn't have space for. I don't understand the need to purify Wikipedia of any unimportant and not-so-notable topic. Half the point of it is to include all of those. —siroχo 11:36, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
The idea of a separate wiki for such material is sort of appealing (mostly because hopefully there no one would use the term fancruft, which has very negative connotations in my mind). However, I don't like it as any sort of solution the way the current system works. (How does one move articles from one to the other? How does one get to one from the other? What if I want to link to information about Maglor from the Wikipedia article on Fëanor? For that matter, how to do I find the article on Maglor if I'm searching from here? What if I don't know enough about the subject to know which wiki I should look it up in?) We would also have to determine where to draw the line, which would be just as messy as the VFD notability discussions are today.
Of course, I do believe in merging small articles into larger, more useful articles. I'm working on convincing enough of the other Middle-earth editors. ;) [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 00:20, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Copyright and obscure images
Recently I added a couple images to articles without the permission of the copyright holder, namely Image:TheDraw ANSI.png and Image:Ceresco library.jpg, in both cases because I don't know who the original author is and have no way to find out. These pictures would be very difficult to replace — while any ANSI art image could be used for ANSI art, I consider the TheDraw image to have additional historical value. I don't think any of us would drive to Ceresco, Nebraska to take a picture of something there, but some anonymous resident has already done so. Neither of these uses is even remotely likely to be challenged. While this seems to contradict general image policy, are these sort of images acceptable? Should they be? Is there a tag for this sort of thing? And, finally, is there some more appropriate place I could ask this? Thanks. Derrick Coetzee 00:16, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- For the former image, I placed the {{screenshot}} tag. [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk)]] 00:35, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
- In general, you should ask the web site where you got the image for permission, since they are presumptively the copyright holders or know who the copyright holders are. If you can't locate a copyright holder, then you should tag it with {{unverified}}, or {{unknown}} if you have a source (i.e. a web site) but no licensing info. It's not good for Wikipedia to include stuff of dubious legality, no matter how useful an image might seem. —Steven G. Johnson 22:26, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
- The reason we should not include images of dubious legality, by the way, isn't so much the danger of our hosting copyrighted images on the website — we can take images down quickly — but the proposed projects of burning Wikipedia or a large subset of it onto disc and printing it on paper, for distribution to areas where Wikipedia is blocked, or areas where people have no computer access. See User:Jimbo Wales/Pushing To 1.0. Copyright holders could then attack legally with pointy sharp teeth, and we'd have little recourse IMO but to pay them something. Tempshill 23:52, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- More seriously (to be blunt) won't all our images look like crap on paper? They're too low-resolution. Even if the full-size versions are scaled to fit, I've uploaded a number of small diagrams and other pictures with the belief that they'd be viewed only on a screen. Derrick Coetzee 00:02, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Noncommercial Images On WikiPedia.Org Versus CDs
People with noncommercial images do not mind their inclusion on WikiMedia.Org (a not for profit family of websites). What is important is that we or people using WikiMedia.Org do not use noncommercial images in commercial works. Luckily, every picture -- indeed, every binary file -- has a page of metadata which includes license. It is easy to remove noncommercially licensed works from commercial works. I do not see why we must deillustrate our websites. When we burnWikiPedia.Org to a CD, we will have to leave out most images for fitting the Encyclopædia WikiPedia to a CD, so it is not like all of the images will ever make it to the commercial CD anyway.
Ŭalabio 04:04, 2004 Oct 6 (UTC)
- I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree with this statement. You cannot speak for the many people who hold copyright to their images, who may want to control how they are used. Their permission should be asked wherever this is possible. I also don't like the idea of some of my small-filesize public-domain diagrams being excluded from articles I've written that really need them, but this is already occurring in many mirrors. What I'm not sure is if images produced by amateurs who cannot be contacted should be proactively included, and only removed if there is a later objection. Derrick Coetzee 13:24, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- What I had in mind is cases like when one finds an image licensed under Attribution-NonCommercial 2.0 of the foundation Creative Commons. These people definitely do not mind their images on the not for profit website.
- We do not have to deillustrate the website of noncommercial website of noncommercial for our for profit CDs. We can use the metadata on the image-pages for filtering out noncommercial images on our commercial DCs, which after all, with have most images left out anyway.
- Ŭalabio 13:51, 2004 Oct 6 (UTC)
- I agree with this, if and only if such filtering is made available to reusers in some convenient way. Probably the best way is to automatically maintain downloads of a "safe" and a "full" image collection, and reusers can choose whichever they like, at their own peril. If this is done, some dedicated Wikipedians should probably periodically review safe-tagged images for accuracy. Derrick Coetzee 23:01, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- It seems to me that this has two significant downsides. First, it's too complex. It's much simpler to simply mandate all contributions have a license acceptable for all our uses. Secondly, it makes it less likely that we'll get unencumbered contributions -- people won't care to remove encumbered content if it appears 'good enough' to them for their ordinary viewing experience. If we mandate unencumberedness, then the incompleteness is in everyone's face, and they'll be motivated to do something about it. --Improv 18:01, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- In my opinion, we should never accept content that would restrict its usage in any situation where we might want wikipedia to go (e.g. CDs, print, and the like). --Improv 16:47, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Template inside signature
There are problems about use of this type of template in signature? --[[User:Archenzo|Archenzo >>
]] 13:32, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I believe there is a limit as to how many times templates can be repeated on a page, so if you were to sign the same page multiple times, the template will stop working after the fifth occurance. I believe the name of the template is then shown instead. zoney ♣ talk 13:55, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Um, what sort of problems? One that I know of (and why I stopped using a template in my sig) is that it only works for the first five times on a page--after the same template appears more than five times on a page, it does not get expanded properly. I understand that this is a setting in the Mediawiki software. older≠wiser 14:01, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
Not to mention that they are just damned annoying. Images like this draw attention. When I'm looking at a talk page, the fact that YOU have been there is not so bloody important as to deserve such visual prominence. -- Jmabel 18:25, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
- Seconded! This Unicode characters/images/tables/etc in signatures crap needs to DIE DIE DIE. Garrett Albright 05:32, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think i heard in #wikipedia that in MediaWiki 1.4 the 5 template limit won't be there (they have a differnt solution for infinite loops), then using templates in sigs will work fine (which I intend to do since my sig is very long :) —siroχo 08:16, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
Policy proposal concerning episode guides and lists
See Wikipedia_talk:Deletion_policy#Policy proposal concerning episode guides and episode lists. Ian Pugh 14:00, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Make ESA images off-limits?
I found this text in the ESA General Terms and Conditions: ESA does not grant the right to resell or redistribute any information, documents, images or material from its web site or to compile or create derivative works from material on its website. Does this mean WP must not contain ESA images (in contrast to NASA images)? Awolf002 17:49, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Yes. —Steven G. Johnson 22:35, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
- Actually, if you read the next paragraph of their Legal Disclaimer, you will read the following:
- Users may not modify, publish, transmit, [..], without obtaining prior written authorisation. In order to obtain authorisation to display or use any content of the ESA Web Portal, please make a request for authorization by clicking on 'Contact us'.
- In other words, you can, but you have to get their authorization.--JohnWest 17:54, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- That's true for anything; the copyright holder can always grant exceptions. —Steven G. Johnson
Tracing images, legality of.
If one finds a diagram that is useful but it is tricky to make in a paint program, what is the legal position if one takes the image into an image manipulation programme and traces it onto a new layer? It should be fairly simple, most times, to get an extremely good copy of the original image, but such action clearly goes against the spirit of image protection legislation. Do we have a policy? --[[User:Bodnotbod|bodnotbod » .....TALKQuietly)]] 19:16, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
- That probably counts as a derivative work, and therefore, still applicable to the original copyright. I've done that, but only with PD US Gov maps, and therefore the derivative work is kosher. I hope. =p --Golbez 20:09, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
- It's a derivative work. Most copyrights restrict derivative works in some way, often more strongly than the original work! On the flip side, one of the conditions for fair use is how significantly the material was altered — for example, a caricature of a celebrity based on a photo is likely to be in the clear. I am not a lawyer. Derrick Coetzee 22:04, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- The previous paragraph actually has more to do with the likelihood of getting caught than with the definition of a derivative work. I'd not do it. Tempshill 23:57, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- No, a caricature would be a sort of parody and therefore fair use.--Samuel J. Howard 01:52, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
It is ok for maps in most cases, and other things where there is no other way to represent the thing reasonably. Copying the artistic interpretation of the thing is what is at stake. Intrigue 23:37, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Handling persistent POV warriors
Do we have a policy for handling persistent POV warriors such as the anon who has been warned five (!) times for adding blatantly POVed material to Malaysia? It's so biased, everyone working on the article has reverted the anon's edits on sight. I asked if blocking is permissible on IRC, but everyone else suggested waiting. Despite all the warnings, the anon has persisted. If we don't have any policies for blocking persistent POV warriors such as this one, we should have. If the user is registered, we can go to arbitration, but for anons... Johnleemk | Talk 07:02, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I assume this is the guy on 218.11.*.* According to APNIC, that block's assigned to "Telekom Malaysia Berhad", and it looks like he's got access to the whole thing. The only way to block him is to block about sixty-five thousand addresses. -- Cyrius|✎ 16:40, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I figured as much. My proposal on IRC was just to block his current IP, and unblock the others after a day or two. Hopefully he'll realise his changes aren't welcome (as most of them have either been incorporated into the article or rejected as blatant POV). I just had to revert another edit of his. This is really getting annoying. Johnleemk | Talk 18:09, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Search results page
The Search results page used to give a red link to allow creation of a page, but this was recently taken away. Maybe that is to avoid creation of easily-missed orphans and vanity pages, but it complicates the creation of necessary redirects. For instance, I just wrote 3 Maccabees and 4 Maccabees (mirroring the current 1 Maccabees and 2 Maccabees), but needed redirects from Third Book of Maccabees etc. to mirror Book of Ezra and Third Epistle of John. I had to do a psuedo-edit and preview to get red links to create them. Is this intentional? Is there a better way? Mpolo 10:53, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
- I'd just type in the URL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_of_article manually. Goplat 15:28, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- There is a difference between the "Go" and "Search" pages. If you enter the page name and press the Search button you won't get the red link. But if you press the Go button instead, you will get the red link asking if you want to create the page. —Mike 17:44, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
- I was convinced that I was hitting "Go" -- but now it's giving the red link again, so maybe I was temporarily insane. Thanks. Mpolo 19:39, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
- You were not insane. The feature disappeared for me also for a time yesterday. I suppose one of the technical people was working on something or other. Jallan 15:56, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Billion
Moved to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style.
How to deal with an edit war on a survey?
I started a survey over at Talk:Project for the New American Century/Survey, and one editor (VeryVerily) who has been opposed to the survey from the start is now trying to disrupt it by inserting large numbers of disparaging non-vote comments into the voting section in direct contravention of the survey guidelines. Protecting the survey would be silly, so I've been reduced to edit-warring to try keeping it as tidy as possible. There's already a request for arbitration pending on this person and this subject so I suppose I could just consider it another piece of "evidence" should the case be accepted, but it annoys me that in the interim he's able to interfere this much with other attempts to work out the dispute short of that. I don't suppose this would be grounds for a temporary ban? That's all I can think of offhand, but since I'm party to the RfA now I don't want to do something like that myself. Bryan 17:27, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Eeek! Run away! That's a massive discussion page for one small paragraph to be agreed. zoney ♣ talk 22:59, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Yeah, it did inflate rather dramatically during the pre-survey discussion over what questions to include. That's the main reason why I'm hoping to keep the side-chatter during the survey itself strictly compartmentalized to the discussion section (having spent a couple weeks trying to discuss the issue with VV I know how rapidly his threads expand :). Bryan 01:02, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Should non-English examples be used in Wikipedia articles?
In the article on pleonasm, a contributor has inserted a number of non-English sentence examples:
- Yo te quiero.
- Te quiero.
- Je crains qu'il ne pleuve.
- Ce 'ne' est plus difficile à comprendre que je ne pensais.
plus commentary on them.
Compare this entry to vowel, which references differences in principle between English and other languages without using non-English examples.
We're discussing this here.
The only explicit policy advice on this I've located so far is Use other languages sparingly. Know of any other Wikipedia policy guidelines on using non-English?--NathanHawking 21:11, 2004 Oct 14 (UTC)
- I think non-English examples, used solely as objects of study and explained in English as these are, are perfectly okay. Derrick Coetzee 21:31, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I think they are more than OK. Yes, we are supposed to be careful about expressing ourselves in non-English phrases, but other languages are perfectly legitimate subject matter. See, for a similar example using Spanish, Alternative political spellings. I think it is entirely correct that this is not confined to English... and I'd love to see a Japanese or Chinese example of substituting different ideographs to make political puns. -- Jmabel|Talk 22:51, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
- I agree, but with a provision: the article you cite is fundamentally different in one important way. It does cite Spanish examples of words with alternate spellings; it does not present whole sentences. In that respect, it's like the noun article I cited. Even an article as obviously appropriate as Spanish_language only has a short passage written in Spanish, compared to the same material in English.
- You speak of puns. Should an English-language Wikipedia article on puns have punning sentences in Spanish, French, German, Russian, etc.? I think not. I think the passing reference to the Greek words for rock in the Biblical pun is fine. But should we cite the entire Greek text for Matthew 16:18? I think not there as well. Articles on language are no different. In the English-language Wikipedia, the focus should be on English-language issues, referencing differences only in passing; if Wikipedia is to be multilingual, that's different--then it becomes a matter of how to organize the material so predominantly English readers don't have to wade through other-language commentary.--NathanHawking 01:01, 2004 Oct 15 (UTC)
- Interesting. Here, we disagree. There are subjects that inherently have multi-lingual aspects. I don't think we should be writing on the assumption that our readers are only interested in one language. It's not like there is some separate "multi-lingual Wikipedia" in which to put this material. Insofar as puns in some languages have aspects different from those in English, I think it's worth discussing, with examples. I know that there are some interesting aspects of Chinese puns that don't replicate in English (plays on which ideograph to use). I suspect that Vietnamese (a tonal language) would also have some distinct forms of pun. I'd want to see those covered in the article if someone has the knowledge. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:17, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
- Don't you think that an article on puns with examples from a dozen languages would become unweildy, cumbersome for most to read? To my eye, this problem is already apparent in the pleonasm article. More of the same would only make it worse. I don't have objections to Wikipedia being multilingual, if that's the will of the Great Wiki, but I do foresee a problem with stuffing non-English examples into English text: diminished readability for the majority. At the least, it should be cordoned off in a non-English section or into different articles--not just plopped into the English text. Does this make sense?--NathanHawking 08:35, 2004 Oct 15 (UTC)
- Non-English references should be considered case by case, just as with English references and with all tecnical material and technical explanations. There are many multi-lingual people browsing the web and many articles where citing an example in a another language than English is quite appropriate, even, for example, giving the original Greek of a crux passage to help explain different interpretations. That amounts to the same thing as giving complex chemical formulae in an article on manufacturing (which is Greek to most readers). A reader who doesn't want such technical information can skip over it. But should it be there for those who do want it. It may result in "diminished readibility for the majority". But Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not only a selection of essays for easy reading only for the common denominator interest of the majority. Its main purpose is to be informative, which sometimes means being technical, sometimes very technical. The majority of readers have minority interests. I'm interested in linguistics and welcome linguistic material. Someone else wants precise chemical formulae. Another person wants to know the information on the geology of an area in with proper geological terminology. Another wants wants complex statistical information. And I don't think there should be a cordoning off of technical information by policy. Sometimes such information becomes long enough and full enough to deserve an article by itself. Somtimes it doesn't. Sometimes it might better fit in a special technical section of an article. And sometimes that is not so. Cordoning off the material worked in pleonasm. But that isn't always desireable. Jallan 22:48, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- In the case of articles like puns where there are various langauge examples, they should be seperated by language, so those who don't want to read about some language don't have to, but those, like myself, who would be facinated by Chinese ideogram puns, could read about them. With other cases, I'm not sure. Could someone suggest some other cases where sectioning would not work? JesseW 02:11, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Euphemisms regarding death
What is the policy (if any) regarding how deaths are printed in articles? I see a lot of inconsistencies mainly in the use of 'Mr X died on' vs. 'Mr X passed away on'. Is it more accepted to deliver the hard facts, or offer a euphemism when explaining the death of an individual? Barneyboo 02:28, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Good question. I haven't encounted a policy on what you're calling "euphemisms" for death. Mind you, I think death (in the conventional sense of that word) is actually what happens when people cease to breath and think and move. But that's me and my POV.
- Selecting truly NPOV terminology is probably impossible--some believe only the body dies, others that everything dies. To the former, "death" is the euphemism (or malaprop) for passing on, while to the latter passing is euphemistic or false terminology. Since most agree that something dies, even if only this body, I think death and died is probably the closest we can get to a simple NPOV term.--NathanHawking 08:55, 2004 Oct 15 (UTC)
- Use the simplest possible term, "died", unless there is a more specific term you can use, such as "was assassinated", "was executed", "was murdered", "drowned", "was killed", and so on. Also, in the case of people whose bodies were never found, you might want to use "disappeared" (maybe they lived and changed their identity, you never know). I would avoid euphemisms if for no other reason than that they're less familiar to speakers of English as a second language. Derrick Coetzee 16:17, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates of birth and death recommends "died". Simple, clear, factual. Gdr 13:46, 2004 Oct 18 (UTC)
Existing Copyrighted Images
Moved to Wikipedia talk: Image copyright tags.
Refactoring talk pages
Is there a policy/guideline for refactoring talk pages? I have noticed some people removing resolved issues from Talk pages without archiving them or even making a note that the discussion had ever existed. Surely we should have a guide for archiving and/or refactoring Talk pages. Johnleemk | Talk 18:03, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Two articles discuss this, perhaps among others:
- Seems to be open season on talk page modification, and that the fate of their appearance is as subject to the vagaries of human judgment as any other material here. This seems good advice, though:
- "Provide links to the original, uncut version, so others can check your changes, and if necessary go back to the original to clarify what an author actually said. This combination of refactoring and archiving will often prevent complaints that information was lost. Make it explicit that you have refactored something so no one is misled into thinking this was the original talk page."--NathanHawking 18:40, 2004 Oct 15 (UTC)
Translation, copyright, and citation
Moved to Wikipedia_talk:Avoid_self-references#Translation,_copyright,_and citation
Policy decisions on IRC
Recently at Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship, there has been a lot of talk about whether it's fair to decide Wikipedia policy and admin/bureaucrat promotions on the unofficial #wikipedia IRC channel. Many participants in the discussion agree that it's generally a Very Bad Thing when this occurs.
To remedy this, I've proposed a policy that sets out some ground rules about using IRC to formulate policy. (Namely, Don't Do It.) Please read it over at m:Talk:IRC channels (that's on the Meta-wiki), and add your thoughts. Thanks, • Benc • 23:02, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Making a complaint about a user
Wikipedia:Request for comment requires that two users discuss an issue with a user before a dispute is announced. How does one get another user to review this issue without announcing it on Wikipedia:Request for comment? -- Itai 12:10, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I assume you should just mention on his talk page, i.e. if you wanted to list me on of RfC(:-)) you would first put a comment on my talk page, [User_talk:JesseW], and give me a chance to respond (a few days, say) then, assuming this issue was larger than just me and you, someone else would also do the same, and if this did not resolve the issue, only then would you post on RfC, referring in your post to the existing Talk discussions. IANAWL, so I may be wrong, but that's my guess. JesseW 14:51, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Stubs
Hi all - apologies if this is mentioned elsewhere... I'm new here, but I've looked through both the FAQ and the help guide and I can't find this mentioned.
I've been adding small amounts of information to several stub articles. In some cases, the amounts are so small that the article is clearly still a stub. In others... I can't tell. Is there a hard and fast rule of thumb as to when a stub stops being a stub?
Grutness 06:42, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In short, no. There is no hard and fast rule for what constitutes a stub. Use your intuition. I would say that when in doubt it is better to err on the side of leaving the stub notice. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:32, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
And there are others who believe stub notices as currently implemented are no-purpose, useless annoyances added mindlessly any article that is short. One might as well have this done automatically by software for any article under some arbitrary minimal amount of bytes if there were any use to it. More information can almost always be added to an article. Many long articles are far more deficient in the amount of information that should be added to them in respect to the topic they cover than many supposed stubs. There is never any harm done by removing a stub marker. Jallan 16:47, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Apparently, unlike me, judging by that last sentence, Jallan considers his/her opinions to be facts.
There are very short articles that are not stubs. Two examples that leap to mind are
- disambiguation pages
- articles about minor deities about whom there is little to say beyond identification
Hence, number of bytes would not be a suitable criterion.
And, yes, I do agree that there are long articles that are so uninformative that they might as well be stubs.
Still, I really disagree that "There is never any harm done by removing a stub marker." Clearly, there are people who find them useful, even if Jallan is not one of them, and the harm done by arbitrarily removing things that other people find useful is that it is damaging to the community. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:20, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
- Unfortunately minor deities and such do get tagged by the mark-all-short-articles-as-stubs warriors, along with every other short article they find. A person who would not dream of actually writing a plea into an article about what should be done about it, has no qualms about adding a boilerplate stub statement to the same purpose. The result is mindless marking of anything that is short, which might as well be done by a byte counter (on anything but disambiguation pages and redirects of course). Size of article does seem to be the only criterion being used, though that is applied with no consistancy. Arbitrarily adding messages to articles that other people find useless is surely also damaging to the community. One gets used to filtering out the garbage, of course. If stubs were marked only by editors who were knowledgeable about the topic of the article with an indication on the talk page about what was needed, then marking as stubs would be useful. But the current practice of indiscriminate marking of articles by templates is damaging, because too often done thoughtlessly and inconsistantly and wrongly. Randomly remove a thousand stub markers and who would even notice if they didn't check the edit history? Do people working in a particular area of expertise really pay attention to stub markers rather than their own evaluation of what is needed and what they can best contribute? Jallan 17:00, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- That's a lot of issues. Two seem worth engaging.
- "Unfortunately minor deities and such do get tagged by the mark-all-short-articles-as-stubs warriors..." Guess I'm not one of those warriors, then. I would say that the best defense against that — and I'd encourage this — is that if you work on a short article that is clearly not a stub, it's worth adding a note like <!-- Please don't add a stub notice to this, it's relatively complete, just a topic about which there is not much to say. -->
- Is it that fact that this shows up as part of the text of the article that mainly bothers you? I could certainly see a case to be made that this could be reduced to simply a category, which would provide just as much information to those who are maintaining Wikipedia, without equally being in the face of passive users.
- Jmabel | Talk 20:24, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
- That's a lot of issues. Two seem worth engaging.
I'm beginning to wish I hadn't asked! :) I shall use my discretion - and hopefully will learn what is and what isn't a stub given time. Grutness 11:22, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- No worries. You just stumbled into one of the semi-"religous wars" at Wikipedia. A further position in this is just that Stub notices are minor compared to all the rest of the stuff we do at Wikipedia, and it's best to just focus on other issues. I must admit this is mostly my view. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia! JesseW 15:01, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The use of English or foreign language names of organisations
Wikipedia has quite a large number of entries coveing different organisations in non-English speaking countries. A number of these are listed under their foreign-language name, which to me seems to be violating Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) and perhaps Wikipedia:Use other languages sparingly. However the frequency of such forms could be interpreted as if they are somehow accepted.
An interesting observation is that different countries seem to have different standards. Scandinavian and German organisations normally have official English names, and they seem to be used, with the national-language name as a redirect. For France and Poland, most articles about political parties use English names. (Articles on smaller parties seem to be more prone to using the foreign-language name. See Category:Polish political parties and Category:French political parties for examples such as Akcja Wyborcza Solidarnosc and Les Verts). For other types of organisations, however, national language names seem to be more frequent: all the major French trade union organisations are listed with their French names (see Confédération Générale du Travail for a list). Looking at Italy and Spain, this is the case even for some major political parties. (Most confused of all is perhaps the Lega Nord article, under the Italian name, but starting: "The Northern League (Italian: Lega Nord)").
A specific problem which may pose a problem to implementing a general policy is that the acronym of the national language name sometimes becomes the main form of reference, not only nationally but also in English. (An example of this might be FNLA, wich is a redirect from National Front for the Liberation of Angola.)
I've been trying to find a specific mention of organisation names in the policy section, but there doesn't seem to be any. It seems to be very much needed. Also, I think there might be use for a coordinated effort to move organisation articles placed under foreign-language names to their English translations and replace the originals with redirects. Alarm 13:55, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I would like to suggest we have no policy on this matter, using redirects as needed to keep article names sane, and discouraging edits that have the sole intention of changing things one way or the other. Sometimes it makes sense to use the foreign name (e.g. Bundestag), especially when acronyms are involved. If anything, I would tend to err on the side of usually using foreign names (except when doing so would be hard to type b/c of umlauts and similar), but that's just me. --Improv 15:22, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) is quite clear:
Not every organization with a non-English names has one single official English translation for that name. Often the native name is more commonly used in English than an English translation, or there are more than one ad hoc translations in circulation. In such cases, the native name should obviously be the one used. Only when it can shown that a single English name is used in English more often in English than the native name, should the English name take precedence. Let individual editors who know about such organizations be the ones to make such decisions on a case-by-case basis. Jallan 19:06, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form.
- Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) is quite clear:
- If there is an official translation, I'd generally use it. If there isn't one, it's more complicated. At least, we wouldn't want to be the only ones to use a translation. BTW the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) doesn't include organiz/sations in the enumeration. -- User:Docu
Flash policy?
What is the wiki policy about including Flash (.swf) animations in an article? 62.252.64.13 17:00, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I'm not aware of any policy, but I'd call it unusual, but not discouraged. However, there should be some explanation of it for people without Flash, just as images have alt text. Derrick Coetzee 17:35, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I would hope to see it forbidden -- it can offer very little useful content, is very nonportable to other formats, is impossible to translate, and is further difficult to edit. Allowing such things on Wikipedia would be terrible for the project. --Improv 05:44, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- The main problem I see is that editing Flash requires a proprietary tool. I strongly disagree with "can offer very little useful content." To the contrary, sites like Mathworld use a variety of Java applets where Flash would work just as well. Also, even images share the problems of difficulty in editing and translation, but at least image editors are free and ubiquitous. Derrick Coetzee 15:49, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- As previous posters have mentioned, Flash is too proprietary to be a good fit for Wikipedia. I doubt people would actually remove a Flash thingie from an article, but I think many people would work pretty hard to code a replacement, and put that in instead. So it's more like, please think really hard before doing it, and do it only if you really need to. (And expect it to be replaced, ASAP) JesseW 15:09, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Recipe policy
Reminder, you are invited to give your opinion here : Wikipedia:Recipes proposal SweetLittleFluffyThing
Speedy deletion policy
I've been taking a look recently at the deletion log and I'm shocked and appalled at some of the articles that pass for speedy deletion. Case in point, see Geno's Steaks (text is available at http://www.mcfly.org/en/Geno%27s_Steaks if it's still deleted). This is an accurate non-stub article about one of the most famous cheesesteak places in the world and was speedy deleted "because it lacks encyclopedic content". I've listed it on Wikipedia:Votes for undeletion, but I'm starting to think our admins need to reread the deletion policy. anthony (see warning) 14:08, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- An article cannot be speedy deleted because it is not encyclopedic. The administrator who did this violated policy. Such articles should go to VfD. Derrick Coetzee 16:23, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Way too much stuff is deleted without reference to deletion policy. It seems few people read it. Intrigue 23:57, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I think part of the problem is a very wide range of interpretations of cases 1 and 4 ('patent nonsense' and 'Very short articles with little or no context'). See User:Niteowlneils/csdornot/ for examples of things I've seen speedied. Most are not CSDs according to my very conservative interpretation of the cases. Some I actually think should be made cases, but some shouldn't, and the description of cases 1 and 4 should be made clearer, ideally with several examples. Some of the definitions at Wikipedia:Vandalism could also probably be clarified, and would benefit from examples (especially 'silly', 'sneaky', and 'Attention-seeking vandalism'). Niteowlneils 03:33, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I favour a conservative interpretation, because this limits the power of any one administrator to a class of articles that almost all should be deleted. The counterargument, though, is that aggressive deleting deletes helps lessen the load on VfD and the relatively small number of good articles deleted can be undeleted. I don't believe this, though, nor is it current policy. Derrick Coetzee 06:47, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- The problem is that VfD is absolutely overcrowded, cleanup as well - thus the amount of bad articles grows faster then its cleaned up. Thus instead of argueing about a borderline case which may have been a valid article stub - why not spend the time making a few articles on cleanup into worthy articles? That'd be much more productive than spending a long discussion to get a three-sentence stub undeleted (like it just happened with Butterface), or something which stinks of spamming to most except those few locals. The amount of garbage here grows with the success of WP, but it seems to me that both VfD and Cleanup don't scale with it. andy 07:38, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I agree, Cleanup has a problem I am trying to get people to comment here Wikipedia talk:Cleanup/Leftovers#Leftovers_system. Leftovers is seriously out of control and I worry people will just ignore it. - [[User:Cohesion|cohesion ☎]] 08:17, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
- The problem is that VfD is absolutely overcrowded, cleanup as well - thus the amount of bad articles grows faster then its cleaned up. Thus instead of argueing about a borderline case which may have been a valid article stub - why not spend the time making a few articles on cleanup into worthy articles? That'd be much more productive than spending a long discussion to get a three-sentence stub undeleted (like it just happened with Butterface), or something which stinks of spamming to most except those few locals. The amount of garbage here grows with the success of WP, but it seems to me that both VfD and Cleanup don't scale with it. andy 07:38, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I favour a conservative interpretation, because this limits the power of any one administrator to a class of articles that almost all should be deleted. The counterargument, though, is that aggressive deleting deletes helps lessen the load on VfD and the relatively small number of good articles deleted can be undeleted. I don't believe this, though, nor is it current policy. Derrick Coetzee 06:47, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- This comes back to the earlier suggestion that perhaps non-sysops should be allowed to view deleted content. zoney ♣ talk 15:49, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I guess I missed that discussion--did anyone actually come up with objections (I can't off the top of my head), or did the issue just kinda slip thru the cracks/fall on deaf ears/whatever? Anyone know if someone has submitted a feature request? Niteowlneils 02:52, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I think what we really need is admins who are willing to patrol speedy deletions and restore those deleted out of process, listing them on VfD, Cleanup, or wherever. -- Netoholic @ 04:40, 2004 Oct 20 (UTC)
- People do do that sort of thing. But you tend to find that the some of the admins doing the out-of-process speedy deletions tend to be amongst the most aggressive and rude of the admins (because they have had years of battling with trolls/vandals, it is said) and questioning them can be an unpleasant business. Pcb21| Pete 10:17, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Yes, a relatively small group of agenda pushers flood vfd with articles (like schools) in the absense of concensus on whether to accept schools as valid articles. They are using vfd as a battleground to change the reality on the ground instead of seeking concensus. Many other articles that do not fit the criteria for deletion are being deleted, they slip past most non-vfd obsessed people, who then cannot even see what was deleted. We must enforce a conservative interpretation to reduce the amount of inapropriate listing, and speedily get rid of stuff that REALLY shoudn't be here. Mark Richards 20:12, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- There is not an absence of consensus to delete schools. Nothing gets deleted out of VfD if there wasn't a consensus to do so. I look at all of the schools listed on VfD and see vote after vote to delete, and only you and a couple of radical inclusionists voting to keep them. RickK 23:20, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
- No, in fact, while many schools are deleted, some are kept. Just take a look at Category:High schools. Just to take New York City examples, I can't imagine deleting Bronx High School of Science, Brooklyn Technical High School, Hunter College High School or Stuyvesant High School. Not sure if any of them ever came up on VfD, but quite certain they'd survive the process. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:34, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
- I'm not saying that high schools are, in and of themselves, automatic candidates for deletion. The examples you give are probably valid keeps. But the tons of articles which have nothing but the school's name, the city it's in, its address and phone number don't make it past VfD, despite Mark's consistant votes of keep. RickK 05:54, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)
- Nothing gets deleted out of VfD if there wasn't a consensus to do so. If you define agreement of 2/3 of the people who are willing to spend hour after hour voting on VfD a consensus, maybe. anthony (see warning) 21:31, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- No, in fact, while many schools are deleted, some are kept. Just take a look at Category:High schools. Just to take New York City examples, I can't imagine deleting Bronx High School of Science, Brooklyn Technical High School, Hunter College High School or Stuyvesant High School. Not sure if any of them ever came up on VfD, but quite certain they'd survive the process. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:34, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
- There is not an absence of consensus to delete schools. Nothing gets deleted out of VfD if there wasn't a consensus to do so. I look at all of the schools listed on VfD and see vote after vote to delete, and only you and a couple of radical inclusionists voting to keep them. RickK 23:20, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
Yes, simply in order to realise how much stuff is deleted you would have to have an unhealthy obsession with VFD. Only folks with quite litterally hours to waste could even plough through all of the stuff that is listed. All it takes is the 5-6 rabid deletion-warrors to get the schools deleted. Most people aren't watching, and can't be bothered. They go on writing articles, instead of trying to delete them. Mark Richards 23:20, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Of course, some inclusionists don't write any articles at all either, and spend all their time attempting to keep crap on VFD... Ambi 00:15, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- It's all on Wikipedia:Deletion log, isn't it? Of course, only members of the secret admin cabal can see what was deleted... -- ALoan (Talk) 00:47, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Messages in the article namespace
Now that there are so many sources of these messages (stub, various COTWs, Countering systemic bias, more I do no know?), I'd like to propose that all such messages (yes, including the stub message) should be posted on the article talk pages from now on. If we do not tell readers on the article page that we think an article is good (the feature message), why do we tell them when we think one is rubbish, or too short? They might even work out the short bit for themselves. Do we need a poll? Filiocht 08:21, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
- Featured articles don't need a message because they are the most evolved of the artices, and therefore need less work. The stubs and CSB messages need to be on the article page because they highlight the the shortcomings of the article, and encourage others to improve them. And if they were on the talk page hardly anyone would see this.- Xed 10:01, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Concur with Xed. --Improv 20:28, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Many templates by their addition on the main article page include the article in a category. We would need to have invisible templates to be added to the article page to add the category and alert editors to the status of the page. Actually, in general, I don't think it would be very workable to remove templates from the article pages - rather I would prefer to see the FA template being included on the page (and hey, that will suitably embarrass people enough to remove FA status if the page degrades). The NPOV dispute template or protected message are there to warn readers too for example. zoney ♣ talk 09:27, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- We have a guideline that says that tags that are for editors should go on the talk page and I would suggest that the stub and cotw tags fall into this category. The guideline implies that tags for readers should go in the article and I would suggest that the FA tag falls into this category. So I wonder, why ddo we post them the wrong way round? I agree with Pete re the categories. Filiocht 10:15, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
- You're missing the point. The stub messages and so on are, effectively, apologies. Readers seeing a crappy incomplete article would tend to overgeneralize and think all Wikipedia articles are crappy and incomplete. The message tells them, 'This isn't our best article, we're still working on this one, don't consider it representative.' Derrick Coetzee 14:37, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Equally, the other messages might be read as sending messages to the readers. My point is, why are some messages accepted on article pages while other, equally valid, ones are not? Specifically why flaunt apologies and hide the FA message? Filiocht 14:42, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
- Featured articles don't need a message because they are the most evolved of the artices, and therefore need less work. The stubs and CSB messages need to be on the article page because they highlight the the shortcomings of the article, and encourage others to improve them. And if they were on the talk page hardly anyone would see this.- Xed 14:48, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Equally, the other messages might be read as sending messages to the readers. My point is, why are some messages accepted on article pages while other, equally valid, ones are not? Specifically why flaunt apologies and hide the FA message? Filiocht 14:42, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
- By definition. And often on articles that are actually quite complete. And if FAs do not need tags, why does {{FA}} exist? Article pages should represent the current state of the article, no more, no less. All the meta stuff belongs on the talk page. Filiocht 14:55, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
- YM {{featured}} HTH. {{FAC}} and {{farc}} also go on the talk page, as does {{COTW}}.
- I am persuaded of the rationale for a short message on an article's main page (rather than talk page) to explain to the reader that an article is shorter than may be hoped for (i.e. a stub message); similarly if there is a problem with POV or disputed facts then we (rightly) have messages that go on an article's main page to alert the reader, and these issues are generally dealt with quite quickly. However, stubbiness, POV, disputed facts can be tested reasonably objectively, whereas systematic bias is much more subjective. I don't think it helps the reader very much to know that a topic is (allegedly) subject to systematic bias. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:34, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Systemic not systematic. A description of the difference is on WP:Bias. -- Xed 15:44, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Can't see the difference, to be honest - if the system creates a bias, that is a systematic bias, whether it is deliberate or not. How does a systemic bias differ? -- ALoan (Talk) 18:30, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- PS - both are redirects to bias which was in cleanup, and I have subsequently edited it a bit - if you want to explain the difference between systemic bias and systematic bias, you could do it there and expand the article at the same time. -- ALoan (Talk) 19:29, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Systemic not systematic. A description of the difference is on WP:Bias. -- Xed 15:44, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I am persuaded of the rationale for a short message on an article's main page (rather than talk page) to explain to the reader that an article is shorter than may be hoped for (i.e. a stub message); similarly if there is a problem with POV or disputed facts then we (rightly) have messages that go on an article's main page to alert the reader, and these issues are generally dealt with quite quickly. However, stubbiness, POV, disputed facts can be tested reasonably objectively, whereas systematic bias is much more subjective. I don't think it helps the reader very much to know that a topic is (allegedly) subject to systematic bias. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:34, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Why are you persuaded of the rationale for putting stub messages? If an article is short, the reader can clearly see that for themselves.
- As for the pov messages, they are always put there to placate editors who are at war, not to help readers out (in fact it may even hinder readers whomight then suppose articles without this message have been ticked off as neutral). Pcb21| Pete 17:40, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Because, as Derrick Coetzee points out above, stub messages are effectively apologies to readers so they know that the stub is not typical (actually, at the moment, quite typical, but there is some good content too...) and to encourage them to have a go at filling it out. -- ALoan (Talk) 18:30, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Filiocht that the policy on this subject needs some clarification, although I'm not sure I agree with his suggestion. As has already been pointed out in this discussion there are quite a lot of tags on article pages, and many seem to be intended mainly for editors. This probably explains why those of us involved in the CSB discussion on the templates and their use didn't really see any big problem with pasting them to article pages. For me, the main argument is that it would serve Wikipedia in the long run to encourage editors to expand on lacking articles, and that tags on article pages will be a more effective way of doing that than tags on talk pages.
I also think that the CSB Article tag (that says "This is an article targeted by the WikiProject Countering systemic bias as in need of expansion") fills a purpose as an excuse, and perhaps a hint at an explanation, to a reader discovering that important African profiles and huge labor organizations only have semi-stubs, when Wikipedia has half a novel on each and every obscure programming language and Middle Earth creature. The wording was chosen on the basis that it makes a non-POV statement, instead of a value judgement such as "this article is too short". Currently, there doesn't even seem to be any generally accepted way to alert the reader to the fact that an article is short in relation to the subject matter it's dealing with, if it isn't short enough to be called a stub.
The other CSB template, called Limited geographic scope, fills another important reader information function. It highlights the fact that although the article is about a seemingly general topic, "the general perspective and/or specific examples represent a limited number of countries". This is very common (for some examples, take a look at Lawyer, Gang or Student activism) and can potentially irritatate and alienate a large number of readers and potential contributors. The template could be seen as a sort of "internal stub tag", indicating that important parts on the subject is dealt with in a stubby way or not at all.
The above is an attempt to explain some of the reasoning behind the well-meaning initiative that some fellow Wikipedians have chosen to call SPAM in capital letters. This does not mean that I don't see the other side of the argument. Neither does it mean that I won't accept not being allowed to paste CSB templates wherever I see fit. I'd just like some constructive dialogue on better ways to handle the problems this initiative made a serious attempt at addressing. I would welcome any wording suggestions that might lead to templates filling the purposes outlined above being generally accepted. Alarm 18:59, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Part of the problem, I think, was the rather prominent nature of the templates used. The stub template is a short italicised sentence, no images, no box, no colour, and quite easy on the eye. I applaud your sentiments, but, for example, I was somewhat surprised to see that a prominent "CSB" notice had suddenly appeared at the top of the the current COTW, African Union, dwarfing the rather discreet "Current COTW" tag. (As an aside, if you doubt the efficacy of COTW, you only need to see how African Union and Congo Civil War have come on.) -- ALoan (Talk) 19:29, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- You should give the efficacy of CSB a chance. - Xed 20:03, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Oh, I think it is an excellent project. I just don't think it needs banner templates at the top of articles to achieve its objective. -- ALoan (Talk) 20:38, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Why not give the templates a chance? What's the worse that could happen - Wikipedia gets better articles? - Xed 21:08, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Because (a) I think they are information for the editor, not the reader, and so should be on the talk page not in the article itself; and (b) I think they are too intrusive and detract from the content, which is, after all, the article, not the template. The worst that could happen is that readers see the banner and don't bother to read the article because it is marked as containing systemic/systematic/whatever bias. -- ALoan (Talk) 21:18, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- So is it just a design issue? It's too big? - Xed 22:15, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Because (a) I think they are information for the editor, not the reader, and so should be on the talk page not in the article itself; and (b) I think they are too intrusive and detract from the content, which is, after all, the article, not the template. The worst that could happen is that readers see the banner and don't bother to read the article because it is marked as containing systemic/systematic/whatever bias. -- ALoan (Talk) 21:18, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Why not give the templates a chance? What's the worse that could happen - Wikipedia gets better articles? - Xed 21:08, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Oh, I think it is an excellent project. I just don't think it needs banner templates at the top of articles to achieve its objective. -- ALoan (Talk) 20:38, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- You should give the efficacy of CSB a chance. - Xed 20:03, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This should not degenerate into a spat over a particular template. The issue here is consistency. I contend that his is lacking in the current situation. Filiocht 07:34, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)
- Again, my contention is that a reader will assume an article is representative of Wikipedia content unless we indicate otherwise. In the case of a featured article, this is a good thing — we don't want to ruin their good impression of the project as a whole by saying, 'You might like this one, but this article is better than all the others.' With incomplete, highly biased, or factually incorrect articles, it's just the opposite — a notice to editors on the page tells the reader that the page is still being worked on and shouldn't be considered reliable or representative. Also, since readers are often interested in topics they look up, it strongly encourages readers to become editors, just as red links do. Other messages do not share this property. Derrick Coetzee 07:48, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Similar cases could be made for other messages and personally I don't buy them. Also, there are repeated debates over what a stub is, with many articles potentially being incorrectly tagged. Once again I state: IMHO, we need consistency, a consistent and clearly stated policy. The steps towards this goal, as it see them, are: 1) define which messages are for readers (as opposed to for editors). 2) recast policy so that only these messages appear on the article page. 3) institute a mechanism whereby new messages can be caterorised as talk page or article page messages. Filiocht 08:03, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)
New anti-vandalism tool
To help admins and editors to track repeated vandalism of specific articles, I've created Wikipedia:Most vandalized pages (thanks to Fuzheado for the original idea). By looking at Related Changes for that page, it's easy to see at a glance which of the vandals' targets have recently been changed. If you spot an article repeatedly being vandalised, please add it to that page. -- ChrisO 08:45, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Categories for deletion phrases
Attempting to mirror the VfD help page (mostly by copy and paste with search and replace). Anyhoo, discussions are open, suggestions please?
- Place comments: Wikipedia talk:Categories for deletion phrases
- This is the proposed new CfD template: http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/wiki.phtml?title=Template:Cfd&oldid=6419602
132.205.15.42 03:58, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)